Mate Im not advocating for sacking Amorim even if United dont win the EL. Just relaying scenario if/when he continues with his current trajectory of 1 point per game into the next season, his inevitable dismissal sooner rather than later, and what the ramifications of it would mean to Manchester United and their season.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
-
Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
I reckon he'll also get the whole of next season too even if it's not going as well as we want. Imagine this thread then? Yikes
If that happens, we'll have a new relegation thread on a weekly basis
Welcome bud. Always great to have oppo fans on here and get their views and opinions. Re Amorim, not sure if he continues playing out from the back, but he’s a “stubborn” guy, so I’d assume so. The overall mood on here for the match doesn’t seem too confident (as you’d imagine, considering our struggles this season) and you being a top 4 club in La Liga with the best defensive record (against our “worst” attack). So we’re all feeling like underdogs and for good reason.
Yeah I take xG with a pinch of salt but I don't need xG to tell me that teams scoring literally every shot on goal against us won't go on forever.
Under EtH, we saw teams week-in, week-out run all over us and pepper our goal. That's not happening at the moment. We're controlling games and losing due to ridiculously clinical finishing from the opposition and very poor finishing from our pair of young and inexperienced forwards.
I’ve seen people say that he continue on current form up until Christmas 2025 and only then might he come under pressure. That surely can’t be true. I agree that he will get the summer but he’s going to need to hit the ground running next season. If we are on 5 points after 5 games he will be under immense pressure.
In Premier League
Amorim 23 games.
Moyes 34 games.
Amorim 6 wins.
Moyes 17 wins
Amorim 11 losses.
Moyes 11 losses.
Points per Game
Amorim 1.04
Moyes 1.68
In short Amorim has to win his next 11 games to just equal Moyes PL form.
Some will say Moyes had a better team, correct but he took a PL Title winning team to this level. You see the manager effect in it.
Even if we gave Moyes more money, more players it wouldn't mask his own limitations.
Come Amorim, has a worse team, but he has taken club to very low levels not even seen during Moyes era. Again you can see a poor manager being given a poor team, sinks it even deeper into the trenches.
Unless Amorim changes, his ways, how he see's the game, then no matter the money we give him, 11 new players much he will do is take us to Moyes level of points. And Still it wont be good enough and it will be at incredible costs.
Amorim 23 games.
Moyes 34 games.
Amorim 6 wins.
Moyes 17 wins
Amorim 11 losses.
Moyes 11 losses.
Points per Game
Amorim 1.04
Moyes 1.68
In short Amorim has to win his next 11 games to just equal Moyes PL form.
Some will say Moyes had a better team, correct but he took a PL Title winning team to this level. You see the manager effect in it.
Even if we gave Moyes more money, more players it wouldn't mask his own limitations.
Come Amorim, has a worse team, but he has taken club to very low levels not even seen during Moyes era. Again you can see a poor manager being given a poor team, sinks it even deeper into the trenches.
Unless Amorim changes, his ways, how he see's the game, then no matter the money we give him, 11 new players much he will do is take us to Moyes level of points. And Still it wont be good enough and it will be at incredible costs.
Well if you consider missing more than a third of a season (which becomes about 35% if he misses the rest this year) as being available for most of the season, then ok you win the argument.
This is a stupid comparison.
Maybe, but it's not like Amorim would look better compared to any of our post Fergie managers
Thanks for your welcome.
I can understand that this is a difficult season for you guys, anyway you have great players and a massive history that makes the players to perform well in the key macthes, so from Bilbao we believe this is a 50% eliminatory. In addition, Sancet (who is our best player, much more important than Nico) won´t play for sure the firt match and it is very likely that won´t be fit for the OT game as well, this is very important for us because is the top scorer and the play maker at the same time. Is like your Bruno to make the comparation.
On our defense, nothing to say, we are so good on it, but there is a self-problem that we created last year when we won the national cup with our second goalkeeper, and it is that we have a superclass on the bench in Europe, so 100% sure that Julen will be the keeper, he is good, but it is not Unai Simon. So this may help you on scoring goals.
We are so strong at San Mamés and there we can beat whoever, but the second match in OT will be very hard, I´m not sure about what to expect, but I think that the enviroment and the stadium will press us much more than in 2012 when you didn´t pay too much atenttion to the game.
I saw the last 15 minutes of your last match and Bruno and Garnacho seems to be very dangerous.
Last edited:
Welcome!
We do play out from the back, but I would argue it's fairly basic and low-risk, we're not talking one-two's in the penalty area! The problem we have is that our midfielders are not especially good at playing on the half-turn, which reduces the options for the defenders looking to pass the ball forwards.
In terms of what to expect, we have been more solid in recent weeks (bar the Lyon game!) and we do create chances, albeit Hojlund struggles to get into games and Garnacho is talented but incredibly wasteful.
Bruno is a wildcard, capable of creating goals for either side with almost equal probability. Mainoo is arguably our best / most talented player, but it's hard to see exactly where he fits in this system.
We do have a few good players now returning to fitness. Mount and Shaw are injured almost all of the time now, but both are available and probably make our best XI.
Losing Zirzkee is a blow as he was really starting to find his feet as a link between the attack and the defence.
Onana is a disaster in games like this, I'd bet good money he will gift you at least one goal across the two ties.
You dont really know if he is staying or going, only Sir Jim and his team know that.
The fact is he has given Sir Jim's team no reason what-so-ever to trust him to lead this rebuild as he has been awful so far and we are going to finish the season on an embarrasing 39 points (which means we would have been relegated if not for the bottom 3 being so poor) with no trophies if we dont win the Europa.
That’s why adding some actual quality up front is going to be important. There’s no way we continue with the current points average if we have an actual striker who can score goals and another attacker like Cunha in the side, in addition to an entire summer to continue training. The fundamentals are there, it’s just people in here hyper focus on the points total and ignore all other context.
Because you think so. But sadly its the reality.
Its based on figures. Points. Wins.
It's not based on your assumptions or what you think or some imagination of arguments.
This are numbers which are facts.
If Amorim had won every single game since he came here, everyone, including you would have said we have landed on the messiah, he would have been compared to all great managers.
But now he's poor
Amorim being compared to poor managers is stupidity.It's a stupid comparison because you're comparing two vastly different periods within the Manchester United and PL cycle and reducing it to basic data.Because you think so. But sadly its the reality.
Its based on figures. Points. Wins.
It's not based on your assumptions or what you think or some imagination of arguments.
This are numbers which are facts.
If Amorim had won every single game since he came here, everyone, including you would have said we have landed on the messiah, he would have been compared to all great managers.
But now he's poor
Quality control - poor logical arguments and low quality posting
Thats your argument.
Bring complex data to compare. Stop trying to act clever. Basic data, vastly different periods.
You're the custodian of 'clever comparison' everyone else has stupid comparison.
Amorim cult followers are more in it than ETH cultists
No reasons other than all the reasons Jim gave in the interview where he said he trusts Ruben to lead the rebuild?
I don't think the poster you're replying to is really a United fan. Before I put them on ignore I looked at their posting history and it was 100% negative shite.
What else could Jim have said? He could hardly have said we dont trust him and are going to sack him
Antony was well below-par for a winger past his first 3-4 games for us but Ten Hag never dropped him all season. Now he's done similar at Betis, started off well with a few goals due to the confidence boost but has since tapered off and pretty much been doing what he did so well for us (exist on the RW and take pot shots with his left foot) since the beginning of March. It's just that he looks a bit better doing it because the lower pace and physicality of the game is more suited to him. Betis' revival is much more to do with Isco coming back from injury and he's been pretty much carrying them since the turn of the year.
Wouldn't be shoe-horning him in though. For the past 2 seasons he has been operating more from the left and currently plays in a system similar to what RA uses at United. And Bruno is 30, Cunha 25, think it's a good gap for the transition.
There's many things I'd like to see fixed, but this does my head in. It probably isn't even reality, but it sure does feel like its the case. We play some good stuff, probably miss a good chance, then our opponents score with their first proper attack
rinse and repeat.Overall I'm hopeful for the future under Amorim depending on how the summer goes and other factors, I certainly wouldn't normally expect to feel this way when I see where we are in the table, but I just don't feel the rage towards him given all the circumstances.
You're not getting what you've been begging for since seemingly the bloke arrived, he's not getting sacked. He'll start next season.
Kaixo. Your team under Bielsa was a real joy to watch, and a pain to play against. I remember Herrera being unbelievable and then we bought him and used him in a completely different role (standard for us I guess).
Think of us as massively underrated - we have a lot of good players individually - but with too many younger guys in key offensive positions (Our entire attack is essentially kids, none of whom are proven) and we seem much more effective when chasing a game, playing quite simple direct football than the football Amorim wants us to play.
How good are your attackers at pressing? If you press us well and stick someone on Bruno, we really don't have much to offer offensively.
Also I am told by a broadly unreliable extended family member Vivian is a generally good CB who literally can't win a header to save his life - this means we might see one of the greatest aerial duels ever in Ramsus (won't head) vs Vivian (can't head) but, more importantly, means sticking Maguire up top late on might be extremely fruitful.
No, he wouldn’t say that because… he does trust him and isn't going to sack him. Sometimes owners, you know, just say what they mean. Shocking I know.
"3 CBs, Dorgu, Ugarte and Dalot. That is six players who will not get us many goals."
Well yeah, I agree, which is why I would be very disappointed if we don't see improvement there next season. In principle, and going by how this worked at Sporting, they should be helping you get goals. In that Sporting v City game earlier in the season there was a goal from 1 wb and an assist from the other. Goals. But Dalot isn't an attacking player, and Dorgu is a 20 year old who has been here 5 minutes. I'm not sure if we'll see more hires here in the future, since you've got Leon coming already, and the consensus seems to be that Amorim will put Amad there long term. But look at the profile of Dorgu and Leon. Players who are absolutely being bough in for their ability to burst into those attacking areas. Dalot is what he's having to work with for now.
I also think there's some hesitancy from Amorim in this first year about pushing the team too far forward as a result of other key missing pieces - in particular a recovery midfielder. If you think about it we don't really have anyone in midfield to recover the ball from a countering opponent after pushing high, ala Henderson at Liverpool. Casemiro, Mainoo and Eriksen are too slow, Ugarte counter-presses - he doesn't drop, and that ain't Bruno's game. Maybe Collyer in the future? But he's been injured. Maybe it was an error on the part of Barrada to go for Ugarte when Ten Hag had so clearly highlighted the need for a recovery midfielder. But we absolutely need one this summer, which is why we're seeing Ederson linked as he's exactly that profile, plus a bit of ball carrying which is what Amorim is all about. I would hope for one more cheap option as well for cover.
And then what that allows you to do is turn your '3 CBs, Dorgu, Ugarte and Dalot' into attacking options, because now they can push without as much fear of being destroyed on the counter. WBs push high to support attack? Ederson covers. Yoro or Maguire carries the ball up the field to initiate an attack, or get in the box to add an aerial threat. Ederson covers. Ugarte wants to counter press, winning the ball back high and feeding in Delap? Ederson covers. And so then you've got your 3 up front, plus 1 wb, and then 1 more from anywhere else on the pitch, to create your 5 in attack. And every team in the pl aims to attack with 5, whether they're back 4 or back 5. So the system, on paper, is in no way inferior in the attacking sense to other formations.
Now all that might not happen. The players might not be able, we might not recruit correctly, Amorim might just be a dribbling moron behind closed doors. But none of it can happen unless we buy the right pieces. And thats the plan. You might not like the plan, but thats what it is, thats what the senior management team have bought into, thats why we're seeing these recruitment targets in the press, thats why Amorim will get the summer. If he gets even some of what he needs, and we don't see some improvement, then yeah, feck him. Back to Iberia pretty boy. But in the meantime, have some patience, look for the good.
"If a back 5 is just like any other system why has it only generated 1 PL title out of 33? Amorim has done nothing outside Portugal and it shows. Hiring a 3421 manager was a massive gamble."
I can't actually recall many Top 6 teams ever trying it beyond Conte and Tuchel, but please correct me if I'm wrong. The more pertinent question then is why top teams in England so rarely attempt it? Maybe there's an understanding of it at the top level of the game that makes them think its inferior. If thats the case, I'd love to know what it is.
Out of all your terrible posts, this is easily top 5. What an awful comparison.
Yeah, can’t disagree with any of that. I didn’t know much about Sancet until reading more about your season as we scraped past Lyon. I’ll admit, I’ll never wish injury on anyone, but it does benefit us that he’s missing the tie. I’m not expecting too much at the San Mames - at best a draw would be excellent but I’m not even too hopeful there - albeit; we have performed better against the more difficult teams this season in fairness.
All in all, it should be two cracking ties. Our big miss these last couple of months has been Amad. I’m hopeful he can at least play some part across the two ties.
Maybe it's not so much that Amorim isn't able to improve certain players, rather the players themselves aren't at the level required to improve themselves. Some of these players we've seen failed to do it under more than one manager now so I'm more inclined to edge towards the latter. At least for now anyway.
For me it's not knowing he's the right man. I'm crossing everything and hoping that he is. Unfortunately we're not going to know that before the end of this season.
For me it's not knowing he's the right man. I'm crossing everything and hoping that he is. Unfortunately we're not going to know that before the end of this season.
Now compare the squads each manager had.
It's another example with Erik where a manager thrives within a limited sporting environment that's not competitive in contrast to the English league.
AC Milan are in a similar situation with Sergio Conceicao, another manager from primeira liga who's massively underperforming.
There's no way Amorim will see out his contract at United pending nothing short of a miracle but Berrada is the biggest culprit in accountability for how bad this season has developed.
Didn't want to keep repeating the same thing after every game. So avoided the thread after yesterday.
He isn't the one for us. Has done nothing to convince me that he will improve next season. Cut the losses and sack him in the summer.
Luckily, we aren't buying players for him. So that's a plus.
He isn't the one for us. Has done nothing to convince me that he will improve next season. Cut the losses and sack him in the summer.
Luckily, we aren't buying players for him. So that's a plus.
If we recruit well this summer, I think you're in for a shock.
Unfortunately our bare minimum standards are so low right now that he will not get the sack. Going from 3rd to 8th to 15h in just 3 seasons is unconceivable for me, but that is the reality.
If we finish 10th next season it will be seen as progress, I believe. That is the recipe on how to get from champions to top 6 to midtable to bottom half in the span of 12 years.
This is what I tried to explain in my initial post you dully dismissed. Low or rather shocking points total will put you under huge pressure esp. at United. You cant just say (nor know) Amorim simply gets the full next season, and Jimmy will be watching how its unfolding.
Did you see him (and Berrada) at the game yesterday? Im no body language expert just guess he didnt really look entertained. Certainly not a look of man happy to splash another hundreds of milions supporting the coach in free fall. Besides, he had an interview praising Ashword not that long before he fired him literally 10mins after another dismall defeat. Yesterday Ratcliffe saying Ruben is his long-term man will mean feck all tomorrow.
But then, when I wrote my peice early after full-time yesterday and what I thought was one of the main problems, I saw you was there straight away talking about great point earned, progress etc. Thats me thinking you are either a glass full guy backing (any) manager no matter the shite and results served (which is fair enough) or you are somewhat related to Amorim or Ineos PR machine (until they twist).
So with people writing off the season because our coach can't coach these players because his system needs new players and a pre season to get results, what are the standards for next season with Amorim? avoid relegation?
Think somewhere around 8th is realistic. If we signed Gyökeres instead of Delap, I'd even say that a push for the Champions League places would be possible. Not happening though unfortunately. Therefore, I'd limit it to 8th and a league performance that is reflected by the data, unlike the 8th place we achieved last season that was a complete fluke.
Well if he gets the pre season and 3-4 first team signings, he'll be expected to have us to 6 and pushing top 4... and that's what those of us who support the guy are arguing. What your post insinuates is straw man bollocks
His system will not work in the PL..
He needs a Nuno Mendes, Trent caliber fbs to make it work..
Else we will always have. 3 CB and 2 wbs..
1 DM..
So only 4 players up top attacking wise ..
So we will never score enough goals