Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[AndySmith1990]

Klopp took them from 10th spot to 8th.

We’ve gone from 13th to 14th.

Hardly ‘night and day’. The reason there wasn’t some amazing progress immediately for either is because both were/are trying to implement a new system, which takes time - that’s the point. I’m sure there were plenty of inpatient Liverpool fans that first half year moaning about a lack of progress too, failing to see the bigger picture.

It was night and day if you compare performances rather than league position. Liverpool were playing some brilliant attacking football in Klopps first season. We're still crap at everything

 

[Posh Red]

If there is no situation that is comparable then that means there is no proven track record of this strategy ever working, which means people ought to stop being so negative toward everyone that expresses concerns about it.

That is not to say the strategy is doomed to failure or anything like that.

It just means that many of the comparisons being put forward aren’t particularly useful in judging the manager at this stage. It doesn’t mean you can’t make your own judgement based on what your are seeing yourself.

 

[Judas]

I think the PL is a very different beast to what it was when Klopp took over too, which can't be ignored.

 

[IWat]

Klopp took them from 10th spot to 8th.

We’ve gone from 13th to 14th.

Hardly ‘night and day’. The reason there wasn’t some amazing progress immediately for either is because both were/are trying to implement a new system, which takes time - that’s the point. I’m sure there were plenty of inpatient Liverpool fans that first half year moaning about a lack of progress too, failing to see the bigger picture.

Klopp that season averaged 1.60 points per game, Rogers was averaging 1.50 before getting the sack.
Amorim is averaging 1.04 points per game, ETH averaged 1.22 this season.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

I don't get the Klopp comparison, even if he was also a slow starter, it went out pretty well for them.
The terrible start of Amorim's tenure doesn't imply that he will have a similar trajectory. If anything, it's much more worrisome than encouraging.

 

[Posh Red]

It was night and day if you compare performances rather than league position. Liverpool were playing some brilliant attacking football in Klopps first season. We're still crap at everything

You should go back and read the ‘Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch’ thread after his first few months in charge. Ironically, there are some uncanny similarities to this thread.

 

[hellhunter]

I don't get the Klopp comparison, even if he was also a slow starter, it went out pretty well for them.
The terrible start of Amorim's tenure doesn't imply that he will have a similar trajectory. If anything, it's much more worrisome than encouraging.

I think that's the point of the comparison. To highlight that those challenging and mitigating circumstances were present for others in the past, and they managed to deliver more than this absolute car crash of a season we're having

 

[erikcred]

It is night and day.
Klopp averaged 1.60 points per game, Rogers averaged 1.50 that season before getting the sack.
Amorim is averaging 1.04 points per game, ETH averaged 1.22

Yes, but if you ignore facts and just think about it, 8th,14th, potayto potahto.

 

[NLunited]

We want context, wow. I‘m surprised the thread is not overrun by posters screaming for Amorim‘s dismissal (this is a good thing actually).

Applying context to Amorim‘s poor performance makes it even worse. There are no metrics to support him staying in the job. We are not in a downward spiral, we have been hitting the bottom.

Our squad is good enough to challenge for European spots. Our poor performance can be seen as a possible outcome of over a decade of mismanagement, especially poor transfer decisions and lack of long term vision.

That opens up the possibility of our current performances. Manager and squad are performing way below their level.

All we can do is stop repeating the same mistakes. Recent transfers suggest we might be doing better. Being linked with Cunha is a positive. Next is getting a striker who is an immediate upgrade.

Right now, Amorim needs to pull of a miracle, similar to our cup run last year. If we don‘t win the EL, things look bleak.

 

[romufc]

I don't get the Klopp comparison, even if he was also a slow starter, it went out pretty well for them.
The terrible start of Amorim's tenure doesn't imply that he will have a similar trajectory. If anything, it's much more worrisome than encouraging.

If you are looking at things on paper, then I agree the trajectory is worrisome.

However; if you look at it with context and objectivity, its not.

1. We have number of players which should have gone years ago and Amorim has decided to do so.. the likes of Rashford, Eriksen, Evans, Antony all need to be replaced.
2. The lack of experienced forwards in our team
3. The lack of system for the players, they are all used to having it their own way and the manager adapting. First time we have had a manager who says.. its my way or nothing. So, it will take time for players to adapt to the system.
4. Lack of profiles that work well in the PL, let alone the formation.

Since he has come in, we have improved defensively and we are getting better at creating chances.

 

[erikcred]

You should go back and read the ‘Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch’ thread after his first few months in charge. Ironically, there are some uncanny similarities to this thread.

Hardly a surprise that we would take every chance to mock Klopp and play down their achievements where we can.

Do you think the "sack watch" in the title is some sort of news item and appears when the mods uncover credible insider information about a manger being imminently sacked?

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I agree I think managerial talent is demonstrable much like a football player who shows promise. When Amorim was hired there was never a notion of realistically winning the league (in his tenure). Klopp has played a fantastic brand of football and the intensity behind his ideology translated very effectively into the premier league. I recall Sir Alex even saying he would win the league with Liverpool shortly after he was hired.

Didn't know that, i believe it makes the point more clear. There's a reason why only when Mourinho, Pep and Klopp first arrived here, the consensus was that they will certainly compete by creating dominant sides on the pitch. We don't have that choice available to us, when we were used to being envied for not having to deal with the issue for 25 years. The worst thing about it is that United - as an organization - have been failing to rise to the challenge of being a "normal" club for a long time. How much time should the gaffer be given? What if his style isn't it? How much control should he have over the first team? And we don't understand that if we (the club) don't know the answers to these questions, the problem will never go away... unless we stumble upon the next SAF, Klopp, Pep, Mou etc. It's not about being Amorim in or out. He may not be the answer, but the club seems to be a black hole for managers and players.

 

[Posh Red]

Hardly a surprise that we would take every chance to mock Klopp and play down their achievements where we can.

Do you think the "sack watch" in the title is some sort of news item and appears when the mods uncover credible insider information about a manger being imminently sacked?

No. I was talking about the individual posts from fans from many different clubs assessing his performance at the time. Thanks for the sarcasm, though.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

If you are looking at things on paper, then I agree the trajectory is worrisome.

However; if you look at it with context and objectivity, its not.

1. We have number of players which should have gone years ago and Amorim has decided to do so.. the likes of Rashford, Eriksen, Evans, Antony all need to be replaced.
2. The lack of experienced forwards in our team
3. The lack of system for the players, they are all used to having it their own way and the manager adapting. First time we have had a manager who says.. its my way or nothing. So, it will take time for players to adapt to the system.
4. Lack of profiles that work well in the PL, let alone the formation.

Since he has come in, we have improved defensively and we are getting better at creating chances.

Even if your points are valid and true, I can't help to wonder how many managers get the luxury of doing a complete reset of a big club, without answering for the results and the way the team is playing, especially a manager that comes from a lower rated league without a big trophy cabinet. In other words, massively underachieve in the present for a potential greater future good.

 

[romufc]

Even if your points are valid and true, I can't help to wonder how many managers get the luxury of doing a complete reset of a big club, without answering for the results and the way the team is playing, especially a manager that comes from a lower rated league without a big trophy cabinet. In other words, massively underachieve in the present for a potential greater future good.

Ofcourse he has to answer with results. You would rather a manager change his principles and tactics to get short term results?

so you want managers to follow what Jose, Ole and Ten Hag did? because that worked out really well long term for us?

He doesn't have the luxury of doing a complete reset, the management along with him have identified major mistakes in the past.. let me name a few in the last few years for more context.

1. Going for FDJ and signing Casemiro for £70m and 350k wages.
2. Signing an inexperienced ST for £72m to lead the line at United
3. Signing a £90m RW that the manager recommended who is a £20m winger
4. Giving Rashford, Shaw and others massive contracts based on purple patch form
5. Signing Mount for £60m in a position we did not need.

INEOS unlike some fans understood its not just on the coach, the whole system was flawed, so why not get a manager that they want to build with, let him have a look at the squad which has been poor for 18 months, get rid of players that dont fit the squad and look at building a squad.

Instead you would prefer us to keep Rashford, Anthony, Sancho etc... for short term results and get us 6th / 7th and no long term improvement?

 

[DJ_21]

Why does any of that mean a poster should be claiming nonsense about us having a squad of Championship level players or too young players?

You can simply argue the manager needs some new players before any real judgement can be made.

We literally just saw how 3 squads of Championship level players fared in the league. We’re also somehow in the Europa League semi finals.

I wasn’t defending that poster. I was just saying in this case we can back the manager until he brings his own players in

 

[fergiewherearethou]

Ofcourse he has to answer with results. You would rather a manager change his principles and tactics to get short term results?

so you want managers to follow what Jose, Ole and Ten Hag did? because that worked out really well long term for us?

He doesn't have the luxury of doing a complete reset, the management along with him have identified major mistakes in the past.. let me name a few in the last few years for more context.

1. Going for FDJ and signing Casemiro for £70m and 350k wages.
2. Signing an inexperienced ST for £72m to lead the line at United
3. Signing a £90m RW that the manager recommended who is a £20m winger
4. Giving Rashford, Shaw and others massive contracts based on purple patch form
5. Signing Mount for £60m in a position we did not need.

INEOS unlike some fans understood its not just on the coach, the whole system was flawed, so why not get a manager that they want to build with, let him have a look at the squad which has been poor for 18 months, get rid of players that dont fit the squad and look at building a squad.

Instead you would prefer us to keep Rashford, Anthony, Sancho etc... for short term results and get us 6th / 7th and no long term improvement?

I don't know the recipe for long term success at a football club, but my opinion is that as a manager, you have to adapt to what you have and make changes that suit your style along the road, without shaking the entire club or sacrificing the club's stature.
Most of the mistakes you pointed out were ETH's and he was a terrible choice.
Getting rid of Antony and Sancho was the right call, I am not 100% sure about Rashford though.

 

[astracrazy]

Ofcourse he has to answer with results. You would rather a manager change his principles and tactics to get short term results?

so you want managers to follow what Jose, Ole and Ten Hag did? because that worked out really well long term for us?

He doesn't have the luxury of doing a complete reset, the management along with him have identified major mistakes in the past.. let me name a few in the last few years for more context.

1. Going for FDJ and signing Casemiro for £70m and 350k wages.
2. Signing an inexperienced ST for £72m to lead the line at United
3. Signing a £90m RW that the manager recommended who is a £20m winger
4. Giving Rashford, Shaw and others massive contracts based on purple patch form
5. Signing Mount for £60m in a position we did not need.

INEOS unlike some fans understood its not just on the coach, the whole system was flawed, so why not get a manager that they want to build with, let him have a look at the squad which has been poor for 18 months, get rid of players that dont fit the squad and look at building a squad.

Instead you would prefer us to keep Rashford, Anthony, Sancho etc... for short term results and get us 6th / 7th and no long term improvement?

Is that not what he ends up doing though? He abandons his tactics and principles towards the end of games when we need a result, so that's exactly what you describe. I can't imagine Maguire up front it part of his long term tactical plan.

 

[macheda14]

Is that not what he ends up doing though? I can't imagine Maguire up front it part of his long term tactical plan

There’s obviously a big difference between changing your philosophy and end of a game throwing caution to the wind. No matter how dogmatic a manager, chuck the big man up top when needing a goal in the last minute is and will always be an approach people will take from time to time.

 

[astracrazy]

There’s obviously a big difference between changing your philosophy and end of a game throwing caution to the wind. No matter how dogmatic a manager, chuck the big man up top when needing a goal in the last minute is and will always be an approach people will take from time to time.

Of course, but it also feels slightly contradictory.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I don't know the recipe for long term success at a football club, but my opinion is that as a manager, you have to adapt to what you have and make changes that suit your style along the road, without shaking the entire club or sacrificing the club's stature.
Most of the mistakes you pointed out were ETH's and he was a terrible choice.
Getting rid of Antony and Sancho was the right call, I am not 100% sure about Rashford though.

I agree with this. How would it be a skill otherwise? The objective in football is simple, you are in a certain amount of competitions at the start of the season and you try and win them all. If you can add in being entertaining/exciting that is great but no owner really cares. All other 19 PL managers have the exact same issue with a range of squad quality, ideally they would always want more players and better players, but they work out as best they can how to extract the maximum from the squad they have i.e. enabling your best attacking players at the expense of other ideas (Salah, Haaland, Rashford under ETH).

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Klopp took them from 10th spot to 8th.

We’ve gone from 13th to 14th.

Hardly ‘night and day’.

This is true in a very literal sense. But it's not really the ideal comparison. Rodgers was sacked on matchday 8. Liverpool were 10th. But they were 7th the previous matchday, 13th the one before that, and 9th the one before that. League positions are very fluid in the first part of the season because there's few points in play yet.

If you want to compare to something more concrete, you could compare to the previous season (14/15). Liverpool finished 6th in 14/15, with 62 points, and a goal difference of +4. Then in 15/16, with Klopp, they finished 8th with 60 points and +13 goal difference.

The problem with that comparison is that it makes Amorim look bad because the team is performing worse than last season, not just on par. The counterargument is that the team was very lucky to finish where they did last year. The counter-counterargument is that the main cause of the performance last year was the strange tactical approach and not the quality of the squad. The counter-counter-counterargument is that the squads aren't the same. It's arguments, they have some basis, but nothing is conclusive.

 

[stepic]

This is true in a very literal sense. But it's not really the ideal comparison. Rodgers was sacked on matchday 8. Liverpool were 10th. But they were 7th the previous matchday, 13th the one before that, and 9th the one before that. League positions are very fluid in the first part of the season because there's few points in play yet.

If you want to compare to something more concrete, you could compare to the previous season (14/15). Liverpool finished 6th in 14/15, with 62 points, and a goal difference of +4. Then in 15/16, with Klopp, they finished 8th with 60 points and +13 goal difference.

The problem with that comparison is that it makes Amorim look bad because the team is performing worse than last season, not just on par. The counterargument is that the team was very lucky to finish where they did last year. The counter-counterargument is that the main cause of the performance last year was the strange tactical approach and not the quality of the squad. The counter-counter-counterargument is that the squads aren't the same. It's arguments, they have some basis, but nothing is conclusive.

agree. Point being ‘night and day’ is nonsense. It took Klopp time, and a few of his own players, to make it work. It wasn’t a ‘bring in Big Sam to immediately improve us’ situation. Amorim is going through similar pains, that’s all it is. Not even suggesting Amorim will succeed like Klopp did but he needs more time than the majority of people here are giving him, is all.

 

[romufc]

Is that not what he ends up doing though? He abandons his tactics and principles towards the end of games when we need a result, so that's exactly what you describe. I can't imagine Maguire up front it part of his long term tactical plan.

Yes its the same thing, going for the attack when you are a goal down or drawing is the same as starting the game with a complete different formation to that you want to build.

Clearly, you dont like the manager. We dont have many options upfront... so in desperate times, he uses Maguire to pump balls in the box. Its not as if he is using that tactic from minute 1.

Being flexible in game is not the same as abandoning your principles... I would have thought that is common knowledge.

 

[Herschel Krustofsky]

Yes its the same thing, going for the attack when you are a goal down or drawing is the same as starting the game with a complete different formation to that you want to build.

Clearly, you dont like the manager. We dont have many options upfront... so in desperate times, he uses Maguire to pump balls in the box. Its not as if he is using that tactic from minute 1.

Being flexible in game is not the same as abandoning your principles... I would have thought that is common knowledge.

Not sure that’s his point to be honest.

I thought the same as you initially but on second reading, less convinced.

 

[romufc]

Not sure that’s his point to be honest.

I thought the same as you initially but on second reading, less convinced.

There is a difference though changing tactics when you are losing in a game to what Ole, Ten Hag and Jose did... they never went with what they wanted...

Ten Hag lost 2/3 opening games and decided to never play his system again for 2 season.

Ole went defensive and he also said on the overlap.. Manutd cannot play like that... went attacking and got battered in a few games and reverted to type.

At least Amorim, even though we lost games is sticking to his principles, which gives the players nowhere to hide.

 

[Lentwood]

The funny thing is, when we have a manager that starts off well then becomes crap.. like Jose, Ole, Ten Hag, fans will say we need to strip it all back and start again.

Now we have a manager that is stripping it all back and starting fresh, fans dont like it.

Its almost people thought it would be a magic wand and we will become better.. what is the point of being good for 6 months every 2/3 years? I rather be completely crap... get rid of all the toxic players and build properly.

We have seen managers always change their style to save their jobs and its been crap, he is looking to put his style in and the management are backing him in this. We will start to see consistency and improvement I believe.

This is basically what 99% of the forum wanted back in December - then when we actually do it, the usual suspects throw their toys out of the pram because they can't handle being teased by Paddy Power on social media.

 

[Lentwood]

That is true, it's not the same situation and it's not entirely comparable. But there is an issue with discussion here, which is sometimes people don't want to compare United to anyone.

If you bring up top level continental clubs changing managers mid-season and getting instant results, the comparison is dismissed because those clubs had much better squads from the outset. If you bring up lower level clubs changing managers mid-season and getting instant results, the comparison is dismissed because those clubs have different objectives. That leaves us with other PL clubs who changed managers mid-season to overhaul their team, like Liverpool (Klopp) and Arsenal (Arteta). But what tends to happen is that when the comparison reflects poorly on the United manager, the differences (squad/position/etc.) are once again used to argue that the comparison can't be fully made.

The end result is that people are asked to trust a mode of operation that is largely unprecedented in modern football and that cannot be compared to anything. Obviously some people will be very skeptical of that.

I would say the United situation is almost unique in world football right now.

1. United have been incredibly poorly run for the last decade or so. In years to come, University business schools will use United as a cade study for how NOT to run a business. I am deadly serious on that.

2. United don't necessarily have a squad of poor players but they do have a squad completely unsuited to competing in the Premier League. Lack of physicality, lack of legs and a large number of very young and inexperienced players. It's crazy to imagine that a club of United's stature are fielding an attack week-in, week-out led by Rasmus Hojlund and Alejandro Garnacho. That amounts to gross negligence. Can you point to another club in world football that is supposedly meant to be competing at the top of the table that contains 6 regular starters who are 23 or under? Sometimes 7 or 8?

3. Despite the above, it's still treated as a surprise when United don't win football matches. The expectation is that United will beat teams like Bournemouth, Forest and Wolves, despite there being really no basis to believe this based on results over the last 12-18 months.

4. There has been a huge amount of upheaval and chaos behind the scenes, culminating in the recent takeover which has led to personnel changes across every department and a complete change in strategy on and off the field.

I would argue that you can't compare this to Klopp walking into Liverpool or Arteta walking into Arsenal. This is a much, much bigger rebuild. It's almost uniquely big.

+ in any case, why do we need to compare with other teams and other managers? I can see with my own two eyes what the problems are, what is going well and what is not going well - and so can Amorim. None of them can be fixed overnight and some simply require new players, and a new profile of player.

At a very, very basic level we had two major problems pre-INEOS / Amorim. The culture and talent identification. The culture was one of excess, of player power, of throwing money away, of greed, of laziness and underperformance.

The players being identified to come into the club were completely the wrong profile. Ageing superstars looking for one last big contract or doddery technicians with no legs personally identified by EtH to compound our pre-existing issues with physicality.

You can't change culture or the physical profile of the squad overnight. It'll take time.

 

[romufc]

This is basically what 99% of the forum wanted back in December - then when we actually do it, the usual suspects throw their toys out of the pram because they can't handle being teased by Paddy Power on social media.

Exactly. We wanted it but they cannot stomach it.... its the way of modern fans though... will moan about everything and become hindsight kings.

 

[Bright_Eyes]

Amorim, the CEO and heads on the football side should all be on the same page. He was hired halfway through a season and everyone involved should be aware that trying to implement this new style at that point in time with this squad was always going to be very difficult. They should all be in agreement that hiring him when they did and getting a head start on teaching the players the new system was the best thing to do, or at least the people who had the final say should be, e.g. the CEO, and so Amorim should be safe this summer. If the CEO didn't agree with this, he shouldn't have hired Amorim. I doubt it was Amorim’s choice alone. The CEO would look foolish sacking him this summer either way.

 

[romufc]

Amorim, the CEO and heads on the football side should all be on the same page. He was hired halfway through a season and everyone involved should be aware that trying to implement this new style at that point in time with this squad was always going to be very difficult. They should all be in agreement that hiring him when they did and getting a head start on teaching the players the new system was the best thing to do, or at least the people who had the final say should be, e.g. the CEO, and so Amorim should be safe this summer. If the CEO didn't agree with this, he shouldn't have hired Amorim. I doubt it was Amorim’s choice alone. The CEO would look foolish sacking him this summer either way.

They are on the same page, just some fans dont want yo believe it for various reasons, some dont like the manager, some dont like INEOS, so have something to moan about.

SJR came out saying our current squad is a mid/lower table quality and is satisfied with how Amorim is going on about his work.

Dont forget, Berrada, Wilcox and Amorim are having dialogues 3/4 times a week and performances, results will obviously be brought up. From Amorim's press conferences, you can tell everyone is on the same page for the moment.

 

[Wolfbot]

The point is, if you wanted a manager to come in and finish midtable this season, you wouldn't appoint Amorim. Wolves and Everton made managerial choices based on staying in the league.

Amorim has been consistent in the beginning in saying that he didn't want to join mid-season BUT the executive team insisted - and set him the goal of using the 5-months he had to lay the foundations for next season. At the same time, the club (and the fanbase) decided collectively that we'd had enough of Rashford and that Anthony wasn't cutting it, so we allowed both to leave on loan.

Essentially at that point, what we were all collectively agreeing to was writing this season off. Especially once Amad gets injured. I'm not saying Amad is the second coming of Messi, but he's still our best attacker and biggest goal threat. Loaning your two most senior attackers out and then losing your best attacker is not a formula for success.

Personally, I don't understand what people are upset about. It's all played out in an entirely predictable manner, given our squad and given the injuries we have had to key players.

I'll begin to judge Amorim's results around Christmas time next season. The results right now are totally, utterly, immaterial to my assessment of the job he's doing.

I don't know how you can look at our results and performances over half a season and think that's immaterial to any assessment of the job he's doing?

I'm not of the belief that everybody essentially agreed to write off either. I think everybody in the world accepts that it wasn't going to be plain sailing, but I don't think most would have expected us to be 3 points away from 17th.

I can fully understand the claims of simply being about laying foundations for next season, but that being the case, the foundations look very shoddy.

We're a little bit better at keeping the ball (although unfortunately this hasn't often equated to progessing up the pitch), and don't concede as many chances, but we are still pretty shocking in attack, don't score many goals and are prone to conceding cheap goals to top it off.

A lot of the players don't seem to play his football at all well, and that's my argument against just starting the new project and going all in despite appearing to be totally unequipped. As an example, if our only real striking option can't hold the ball up well, and struggles get away from defenders to get shots off, what's the point in leaving him up there pretty isolated trying and failing miserably to do what's required in that role? Play differently and support whatever his strengths may be until we get someone capable of actually performing the role the new system requires to a decent standard. I've used Hojlund here but there are others in the same boat. If he was a one off case I'd get it, but that's not the case.

I don't really understand that rational behind playing in a way that has made us worse as a team and blunts the strengths of some of the players who we've seen can be a threat. We've seen barely any improvement while practicing the new system since he came, what's been the point in continuing with it for half a season when we're clearly not ready to do so? It's just made the team (and some individuals) look worse than they probably are, dented confidence and made us more of joke than we already were last season.

That's what I'm a bit annoyed about, I feel as though it should have been pretty apparent after a couple of months that the new ideas weren't going to get us anywhere with the players in the squad at this time, even moreso with injuries to a couple of our better players and having to loan out two of our senior attackers. In my opinion he should have tried something else until we get to a better place in the off-season.

At least we're still in the Europa due to the decision to throw Maguire up front, but I don't really see anything particularly beneficial about how we've chosen to go about the season since he's come in, it doesn't look particularly different to where we were under Ten Hag aside from the fact we concede less chances and pass the ball around for a while before giving it away.

 

[lex talionis]

I would say the United situation is almost unique in world football right now.

1. United have been incredibly poorly run for the last decade or so. In years to come, University business schools will use United as a cade study for how NOT to run a business. I am deadly serious on that.

2. United don't necessarily have a squad of poor players but they do have a squad completely unsuited to competing in the Premier League. Lack of physicality, lack of legs and a large number of very young and inexperienced players. It's crazy to imagine that a club of United's stature are fielding an attack week-in, week-out led by Rasmus Hojlund and Alejandro Garnacho. That amounts to gross negligence. Can you point to another club in world football that is supposedly meant to be competing at the top of the table that contains 6 regular starters who are 23 or under? Sometimes 7 or 8?

3. Despite the above, it's still treated as a surprise when United don't win football matches. The expectation is that United will beat teams like Bournemouth, Forest and Wolves, despite there being really no basis to believe this based on results over the last 12-18 months.

4. There has been a huge amount of upheaval and chaos behind the scenes, culminating in the recent takeover which has led to personnel changes across every department and a complete change in strategy on and off the field.

I would argue that you can't compare this to Klopp walking into Liverpool or Arteta walking into Arsenal. This is a much, much bigger rebuild. It's almost uniquely big.

+ in any case, why do we need to compare with other teams and other managers? I can see with my own two eyes what the problems are, what is going well and what is not going well - and so can Amorim. Not of them can be fixed overnight and some simply require new players, and a new profile of player.

The United situation is unique, possibly unique in the history of any sport. But I would like to critique a few of the points you've made.

United have been poorly run for the last decade, without question, and although we've discussed this how endlessly on the caf it's worth being a more specific as to how and why -- the Glazers have focused far too much on maximizing revenue and far too little on the performance on the pitch. By failing to attend to the latter, the Glazers, it now risks the former. The Glazers should have sold the club outright when it had the chance to do over a year ago, taken their winnings and their roiled robes with them back to Florida, where they can team up with Trump and other oligarchs to degrade America.

I agree with your assessment of the squad, but overlooked in all of this is how club management failed to properly manage, on a human level, the following players -- Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood and Antony. All had different problems but there is a common denominator among them and it's that their heads got turned by the trappings of fame and fortune.

No one is surprised any longer when United loses a match to a club which is, at least on paper, its inferior.

The recent upheaval certainly contributes to the chaos surrounding the club, but it seems like chaos has reigned over the club since Sir Alex announced his retirement. Moyes, chaos. LVG, chaos. Jose, chaos. Ole, not so much chaos but it was a high followed by a very low, low. ETH, chaos. Amorim, no chaos but the results have been disappointing.

With all due respect to Liverpool and Arsenal, the pressure to deliver is vastly greater for a manager of Manchester United. We're at risk of becoming a historical relic, but over the last decade United has been the object of intense scrutiny on an almost hourly basis throughout the world. Klopp and Arteta were given time to right their ships. I wouldn't suggest for a moment that any of the sackings of Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole and ETH were not the right decisions but at the same time if any of them were onto something (I don't think they were) they were given less time than Klopp and Arteta. The knives are already out for Amorim. This is how it is at Old Trafford until that time comes when we have fallen so far our perch that the only pressure on the manager would be to keep us in midtable.

 

[croadyman]

We want context, wow. I‘m surprised the thread is not overrun by posters screaming for Amorim‘s dismissal (this is a good thing actually).

Applying context to Amorim‘s poor performance makes it even worse. There are no metrics to support him staying in the job. We are not in a downward spiral, we have been hitting the bottom.

Our squad is good enough to challenge for European spots. Our poor performance can be seen as a possible outcome of over a decade of mismanagement, especially poor transfer decisions and lack of long term vision.

That opens up the possibility of our current performances. Manager and squad are performing way below their level.

All we can do is stop repeating the same mistakes. Recent transfers suggest we might be doing better. Being linked with Cunha is a positive. Next is getting a striker who is an immediate upgrade.

Right now, Amorim needs to pull of a miracle, similar to our cup run last year. If we don‘t win the EL, things look bleak.

Well without winning the Europa he can forget competing for Gyokeres, also unless we manage to sell some players then can't address other areas of squad either.

 

[astracrazy]

Ofcourse he has to answer with results. You would rather a manager change his principles and tactics to get short term results?
.....

Is that not what he ends up doing though? He abandons his tactics and principles towards the end of games when we need a result, so that's exactly what you describe. I can't imagine Maguire up front it part of his long term tactical plan.

Yes its the same thing, going for the attack when you are a goal down or drawing is the same as starting the game with a complete different formation to that you want to build.

Clearly, you dont like the manager. We dont have many options upfront... so in desperate times, he uses Maguire to pump balls in the box. Its not as if he is using that tactic from minute 1.

Being flexible in game is not the same as abandoning your principles... I would have thought that is common knowledge.

There is a difference though changing tactics when you are losing in a game to what Ole, Ten Hag and Jose did... they never went with what they wanted...

Ten Hag lost 2/3 opening games and decided to never play his system again for 2 season.

Ole went defensive and he also said on the overlap.. Manutd cannot play like that... went attacking and got battered in a few games and reverted to type.

At least Amorim, even though we lost games is sticking to his principles, which gives the players nowhere to hide.

You give example of how he abandons his tactics and principles when losing, which is what I said, followed by he sticks to them even when we lose. Perhaps your love for the manager blinds your vision for how contradictory you are being. Regardless you have essentially proved the point I was making in your own words, which you managed to miss, so thank you.

 

[Aleryan]

Man utd has always been strong. For the past few seasons, only the strongest Liverpool and Man City side can dominate in terms of possession. Majority of the matches, man utd still maintain high possession of the ball.

This can be seen in man utd winning the fa cup last season beating even man city.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I'm a bit confused about this claim that Mourinho compromised his principles for short-term results at Manchester United. He is a pragmatic manager who tries to obtain short-term results at all his clubs. Those are his principles.

 

[romufc]

You give example of how he abandons his tactics and principles when losing, which is what I said, followed by he sticks to them even when we lose. Perhaps your love for the manager blinds your vision for how contradictory you are being. Regardless you have essentially proved the point I was making in your own words, which you managed to miss, so thank you.

So you dont know the difference between being tactically flexible in games and abandoning his principles...

I managed to miss the mark saying he sticks to his principles, you chose a few games where we have no ST so need use a CB as a target man... is the same as a manager that lost 2/3 games and never went back to his style again....

At least Amorim will start most games with his style and principles.

I get it you want a manager that will get us short term results and up to 6th so you dont get bantered by twitter kids.

 

[astracrazy]

So you dont know the difference between being tactically flexible in games and abandoning his principles...

I managed to miss the mark saying he sticks to his principles, you chose a few games where we have no ST so need use a CB as a target man... is the same as a manager that lost 2/3 games and never went back to his style again....

At least Amorim will start most games with his style and principles.

I get it you want a manager that will get us short term results and up to 6th so you dont get bantered by twitter kids.

Yes I know the difference, and like I said you are proving what I said. You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. But why you resort to making stupid comments like this I have no idea.

 

[Herschel Krustofsky]

There is a difference though changing tactics when you are losing in a game to what Ole, Ten Hag and Jose did... they never went with what they wanted...

Ten Hag lost 2/3 opening games and decided to never play his system again for 2 season.

Ole went defensive and he also said on the overlap.. Manutd cannot play like that... went attacking and got battered in a few games and reverted to type.

At least Amorim, even though we lost games is sticking to his principles, which gives the players nowhere to hide.

I do agree with what you are saying here.

The poster just seems to be saying that Amorim isn’t 100% sticking to his principles when he lobs Maguire up front.

That’s fair comment I believe.