Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

Such short term nonsense. Points literally don’t matter this season, building a system for the future is what matters.

Yes-you're right and you're confident that the games we have played under Amorim are evidence that this system is being built and we only need the summer signings to plug into our first eleven and all is good?

 

[Bright_Eyes]

Not sure I agree with this.

United are fully aware of all the managers available (spoiler alert: There aren't many), and wouldn't need to do much in this regard.

As for buying to support Amorim's system, it would be necessary to support any manager to buy players they tell the board they need to move the interests of the club forward next season, so Amorim wouldn't really be any different in this regard. What would be strange would be to deliberately buy players the manager doesn't want and in the process sabotage the club's success next year.

Exactly. Either back or sack. Make the bold move. If they believe he can do this, go all in. If they don't, get rid. Any in between is just going to muddy the waters and probably result in a worse outcome.

 

[Todd]

Such short term nonsense. Points literally don’t matter this season, building a system for the future is what matters.

Our place in the table absolutely still matters, even in a throwaway season. It's something close to 3 million pound per place in the table.

Even given everything that has gone wrong, this squad had no business failing to finish in the top half. We're gonna probably finish 16th at best.

That's something like 20 million pound thrown away. You don't think that matters?

 

[Baxquux]

'Specific needs' - like a pacey wide forward who also shows consistency in their final pass ( tbf today wasn't Garnacho's worst game, and not just because of the goal and assist). Or a CM who doesn't get bullied, has some pace and can distribute the ball quickly to the 10s/WBs. Or a finisher who can also press and hold the ball up. Those aren't exactly niche demands.

People do also know that Amorim's teams don't spend every minute of the match purely in a 343 (regardless of being in or out of possession), right? That the 343 basically demands the same kind of players as a 433, except with slight positional and general off the ball-tweaks and demands. If anything, ETH was far more 'weird' in his personal demands re. player profiles, despite playing 4 at the back, and is a significant reason why, despite 600m, the squad is such a messy patchwork of profiles that can't consistently gel in the PL.

 

[Roboc7]

INEOS/Sir Jim have made a catalog of big mistakes since they took control of the football side of and will not want to make another by doing the same thing they did with ETH

There’s zero chance of him being sacked before next season. I doubt they give him long if this continues but they’ve brought him in to oversee wholesale changes. They know the squad isn’t good enough, they want to dismantle it so Amorim is going to get a chance to turn it around.

 

[Redstain]

Not sure I agree with this.

United are fully aware of all the managers available (spoiler alert: There aren't many), and wouldn't need to do much in this regard.

As for buying to support Amorim's system, it would be necessary to support any manager to buy players they tell the board they need to move the interests of the club forward next season, so Amorim wouldn't really be any different in this regard. What would be strange would be to deliberately buy players the manager doesn't want and in the process sabotage the club's success next year.

I only see the rhetoric with buying players a manager exclusively wants with United and it's the reason why there's no cohesion between the balance of the team from one manager to another. This approach has fostered failure even when managers have had good seasons in isolation (Ole / Jose) and the simple reason is because it's not sustainable.

United should be building a team that's adept for the long term interests of the club that the manager can utilise at present. Hence buying versatile players avoids the controversy of buying players the manager doesn't want. If for instance you take Cunha he is adept at playing on the wing just as much as further inside as a 10. So in the event another manager utilises a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 for instance all is not lost to necessitate the sale of the said player.

There is a clear blueprint for United to mess things up and it's to continue doing what they've done previously. Hopefully Jim and co have the foresight to see the manager as expandable in the worst case scenario though it's the most realistic assessment when anything other than the top 1% of world class managers are hired.

 

[city-puma]

There's loads of positives to hang your hat on for believing Amorim can do so much better next season.

So many people willfully fogetting what Ten Hag left him with, and the mess the club has been in this season through the takeover and lack of funds.

I'd love to know who people would suggest we go for if Amorim was sacked this summer.

Exactly. The damages from ETH’s transfers are bigger than we originally thought half year ago.
Many people still believe one new CF will make things click. It won’t. A solution requires multiple reinforcements in the summer. They have to be a mix of high potential youths and experienced but just about to reach their primes.
The football structure seems adapting to that strategy. It will be better and better.

 

[davidmichael]

The worse thing is that this further solidifies the incompetence of INEOS. They backed Berrada at the expense of Ashworth in appointing Amorim. So what does that mean for Berrada if Amorim is sacked? Could be more chaos.

If Amorim doesn't work out, Berrada's position will be untenable IMO.

Berrada knows this, so he will give Amorim plenty of rope, as their fates are intertwined. With this in mind, I don't think there's any chance Amorim is sacked before Christmas, even if we lose every remaining league game this season and the EL final.

Exactly this and I’ve long said that other than lip service Ineos have shown themselves to be no better than the long term parasitic owners in their decision making for on pitch things.

The fecking Glazer’s gave Woodward the keys to the kingdom because he brokered the deal for them to get the club whilst the club paid the debt then brought in Arnold and Murtough but Ineos after talking a big game allowed Brailsford who’s a cycling data performance guy and Berrada who specialises in sponsorship and commercial deals to make the footballing decisions, the irony is that we actually had a guy who builds footballing structures in Ashworth but let Brailsford and Berrada to overrule him and go with their decisions so Ashworth left.

I do wonder if Berrada sticks to what he said when he came in about players being moved on if they haven’t shown improvement within two years and if that applies to the coaching staff too, Berrada HAS to go if Amorim doesn’t work or at the very least is told he has zero input in footballing decisions and simply runs the business side which is what he specialises in and we bring in a Sporting Director to work alongside Wilcox and THEY run the football side with zero input from Brailsford or Berrada.

No more of a gamble than Arne Slot to be fair.

Amorim was a manager so highly rated he was going to get a big job eventually.

Difference being that Slot played a similar way to Klopp although better defensively, they looked at Amorim and obviously after the Liverpool hierarchy spoke to Amorim and saw he wouldn’t budge on his tactical set up which suited no one but Amorim they decided to go with Slot and is exactly what Ashworth was telling Ineos and Berrada but Berrada pulled rank because he thought Amorim would follow Viana to City and be successful based on Sporting’s success and City’s money without thinking of whether City would go for someone who’s tactically stubborn like Amorim.

 

[Raoul]

United should be building a team that's adept for the long term interests of the club that the manager can utilise at present. Hence buying versatile players avoids the controversy of buying players the manager doesn't want. If for instance you take Cunha he is adept at playing on the wing just as much as further inside as a 10. So in the event another manager utilises a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 for instance all is not lost to necessitate the sale of the said player.

I generally don't disagree with the stipulation that hiring a manager is an expression of the club's long term interests. If United hire Amorim, that means they are 100% backing the style, formation, and tactics that he is synonymous with at his previous club. Therefore buying random players who can easily plug into any system would only undermine the current commitment the club has towards winning with Amorim.

 

[Bright_Eyes]

'Specific needs' - like a pacey wide forward who also shows consistency in their final pass ( tbf today wasn't Garnacho's worst game, and not just because of the goal and assist). Or a CM who doesn't get bullied, has some pace and can distribute the ball quickly to the 10s/WBs. Or a finisher who can also press and hold the ball up. Those aren't exactly niche demands.

People do also know that Amorim's teams don't spend every minute of the match purely in a 343 (regardless of being in or out of possession), right? That the 343 basically demands the same kind of players as a 433, except with slight positional and general off the ball-tweaks and demands. If anything, ETH was far more 'weird' in his personal demands re. player profiles, despite playing 4 at the back, and is a significant reason why, despite 600m, the squad is such a messy patchwork of profiles that can't consistently gel in the PL.

I agree that people make a bigger deal of this than is realistic, though having 6 CBs and 4 10s, along with too few tricky fast wingers in the squad is going to take a bit of time to sort out if we go back to a 4231 manager.

 

[stretford ender58]

This game mattered little. But it does indicate that we can’t rely on youth to make the difference next season. Amass and Obi looking very raw and Dorgu just shows we haven’t learnt our lesson taking punts on youngsters instead of buying quality players ready to make the step up. We should have spent the Dorgu money on a goalkeeper he’s done little to improve us this season and bringing back Alvaro Carreras would have been a better shout.

So we are left in the uncomfortable position of having to spend a lot of money to back a manager who has been far from convincing and has a system that doesn’t show any signs of working and is ill suited to our current squad.

Erik won the FA Cup last season against much stronger opposition than Ruben faced in the Europa league (and his track record against premier league opposition doesn’t inspire confidence with Tottenham likely to be our final opponents).

Just as was the case last summer we will end up keeping Amorim because there are no obvious upgrades and we don’t want to incur another huge payoff.

Worth remembering though that next season our only realistic route to champions league is finishing top 4 and even with 3-4 good signings in the summer I’m not seeing it

 

[croadyman]

Agreed. Berada's insistence that Amorim accept his "take it or leave it" offer to join United mid-season will give Amorim a lot of leverage to say "See, I told you it was a better idea for me to join at season's end instead of two months into the league season, and look what's happened".

Yeah and he would be absolutely right making that point

 

[Eugenius]

Yamal already has 7,000mins for the senior team and 1,100mins for Spain. But he's still a kid and will have dips in form like any other kid, but he's obviously a special one in a Generation talent. I don't really see how that has any baring in your argument. As Yamal still has significantly more mins than our 20 year olds baring Garnacho. I'd hate to be a young player these days, they don't have any time to develop anymore and will get assessed after a handful of games. Way too much pressure placed on them to perform immediately.

Either way, you were the one that stated the starting eleven had 8 seasoned national players and only had 3 youngsters. Which is clearly, simply, not true. You've ignored that though.

I haven't ignored anything. The fact is we have 8 players in the first XI today who are regularly when fit in the international squads of England, Netherlands, Argentina, Uruguay and Turkey and have gone to major tournaments with them. Not to mention the players coming off the bench. To lump them in the same category as Chido Obi is clearly beyond any argument in good faith.

Kobbie Mainoo has been part of first team for over 2.5 years, started in a euros final and was MotM in a FA Cup Final. But apparently that's not seasoned enough. You use minutes but also ignore the 40 odd games he's missed through injury in those two seasons. It's odd that he should handicap our expectations because of his age and "minutes played" after he's been established as a solid first team and PL player for almost two seasons. It's the same as Garnacho who has a Copa America medal and scored a screamer today. Should we surprised about or not ignore he's been one of our most consistent attacking threats and played almost every game when fit for two years.

 

[roseguy64]

If we weren’t in the EL we probably wouldn't have played a heavily rotated team, and we’d have likely won it today. We still came close away from home against a good team.

So what happened to the other games we've lost this season against teams like Brentford that didn't have a rotated team?

 

[Redstain]

The squad isn’t equipped for the Premier League, maybe Amorim isn’t either.

I think this is accurate of both instances. The players lack the physicality to match the tempo in the league, that's why the team is more assertive in European fixtures there's an extra few milliseconds in between the phases of play and if a team gets physical (Bilbao) they can't impose themselves like the counterparts in the league.

The two main culprits in regards to the tactical elements are the slowness of the ball in rotating between the build up and playing out from the press. After assessing interviews which players have put out concerning Pep / De Zerbi they coach playing out from the back repetitiously to the extent it's muscle memory for the players. So it's no longer intuitive frameworks where there's plenty of room for mistakes, it's situated drills which then carries over from the training ground to match day performances.

I personally don't think Amorim is adept at this given his philosophy, even when you assess who United are linked with in the midfield there's no one of note to signify using the ball more effectively in possession it's mostly box to box profiled which is an endurance attribute as opposed to technical quality. This is why even next season with more attacking players it will certainly help the goal differences metrics but there's still holes in how efficiently the team play out from defence to just beyond the midfield.

 

[Malone_Post]

Yeah and he would be absolutely right making that point

It’s a complete cop out intended to take heat off just how bad a job he’s doing. It’s staggering just how bad it’s been and how readily some fans are prepared to accept it.

 

[roseguy64]

Does everyone not realise that even last year our performances were so poor that we should have finished 15th. We were extremely lucky to get 8th and that's after giving a manager 400 million to do that.

Our performances weren't great but we had good players and they played better last season and this season when ETH changed his tactics late in the season and when RVN took over briefly. Unfortunately you can't rely on having better players to overperform a bad tactical fit/a bad system over the course of a season.

 

[Raoul]

So what happened to the other games we've lost this season against teams like Brentford that didn't have a rotated team?

Or even the ones where we defeated Arsenal, City, and drew the league winners.

 

[Raoul]

It’s a complete cop out intended to take heat off just how bad a job he’s doing. It’s staggering just how bad it’s been and how readily some fans are prepared to accept it.

The league was always going to be a write off. If we make the CL, then we can set ourselves up for success next year.

 

[Malone_Post]

The league was always going to be a write off. If we make the CL, then we can set ourselves up for success next year.

See this is exactly what I mean, complete cop out. The lowering of standards in order to avoid just admitting he’s doing a terrible job is utterly ridiculous.

ETH was sacked just 9 games into the season, Amorims had the best part of 3/4 of the season in charge. The idea that the league was always going to be a write off is completely absurd.

 

[Posh Red]

See this is exactly what I mean, complete cop out. The lowering of standards in order to avoid just admitting he’s doing a terrible job is utterly ridiculous.

ETH was sacked just 9 games into the season, Amorims had the best part of 3/4 of the season in charge. The idea that the league was always going to be a write off is completely absurd.

No, ETH was sacked two whole seasons and nine games into his tenure. That’s a huge difference, and it makes no sense to ignore that aspect when making a comparison.

 

[Vidooq]

See this is exactly what I mean, complete cop out. The lowering of standards in order to avoid just admitting he’s doing a terrible job is utterly ridiculous.

ETH was sacked just 9 games into the season, Amorims had the best part of 3/4 of the season in charge. The idea that the league was always going to be a write off is completely absurd.

He indirectly said it, since he is changing the playing style to something that the team is not used to, to something he doesn't have players for, to something that he wasn't able to buy a bunch of players like City did in January. He was well aware what was going to happen. Give him a summer and few players that can play his style, and we can then judge him.

 

[Malone_Post]

No, ETH was sacked two whole seasons and nine games into his tenure. That’s a huge difference, and it makes no sense to ignore that aspect when making a comparison.

You don’t sack a manger 9 games into a new season and then say the league campaign is a write off. It’s ridiculous.

 

[Posh Red]

You don’t sack a manger 9 games into a new season and then say the league campaign is a write off. It’s ridiculous.

But that’s exactly what United did, factually. They tried to hire a manager and he told them he did not think it a good idea to join mid season. They hired him anyway.

 

[lsd]

There’s zero chance of him being sacked before next season. I doubt they give him long if this continues but they’ve brought him in to oversee wholesale changes. They know the squad isn’t good enough, they want to dismantle it so Amorim is going to get a chance to turn it around.

They have a team in place now to deal with recruitment and overall structure regardless of who the manager is. Therefore there's no guarantee Amorim will get anything. Unless he wins the Europa and gets champions league football he could have no complaints if he is sacked

 

[lsd]

But that’s exactly what United did, factually. They tried to hire a manager and he told them he did not think it a good idea to join mid season. They hired him anyway.

Wasn't mid season no matter how many times people try to claim it. There's no excuse to be where we are.

 

[Raoul]

See this is exactly what I mean, complete cop out. The lowering of standards in order to avoid just admitting he’s doing a terrible job is utterly ridiculous.

ETH was sacked just 9 games into the season, Amorims had the best part of 3/4 of the season in charge. The idea that the league was always going to be a write off is completely absurd.

Would it make you happy for others to agree with you that he's doing a terrible job ? What precisely would that accomplish and how would it move the needle forward for the club ?

 

[Adz_99]

I don't think Amorim should be sacked over the summer no matter what happens however if we're 10 games into next season and hovering above the relegation places then he'll have to go. He's starting the season on wafer thin ice.

 

[davidmichael]

Seeing as Amorim has now come out publicly and said we can’t play in the CL next season and play competitively in the league at the same time he should now think very hard about changing things tactically, even Sir Alex would play 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 or 4-4-1-1 because he knew you HAD to change things up.

If Amorim can’t get wholesale changes squad wise for next season should he be at the club then as a coach you adapt and change things tactically to suit what you have in place, I just pray to god that we NEVER allow a coach to dictate how the club plays or sets up again as it’s creates a horribly unbalanced squad time after time and coach after coach.

 

[Posh Red]

Wasn't mid season no matter how many times people try to claim it. There's no excuse to be where we are.

Doesn’t really change what I said, though

 

[Raoul]

I don't think Amorim should be sacked over the summer no matter what happens however if we're 10 games into next season and hovering above the relegation places then he'll have to go. He's starting the season on wafer thin ice.

A sensible way of looking at it. He will have until Christmas to show some positive momentum. If we're not anywhere near the top 4 by then, the pressure will begin to mount.

 

[Malone_Post]

He indirectly said it, since he is changing the playing style to something that the team is not used to, to something he doesn't have players for, to something that he wasn't able to buy a bunch of players like City did in January. He was well aware what was going to happen. Give him a summer and few players that can play his style, and we can then judge him.

Or he got his excuses in early.
And evidently they’ve worked on a large portion of our fans who have lapped it up. As they do with every single manager we hire.

But that’s exactly what United did, factually. They tried to hire a manager and he told them he did not think it a good idea to join mid season. They hired him anyway.

That doesn’t excuse how bad a job he’s doing.

Would it make you happy for others to agree with you that he's doing a terrible job ? What precisely would that accomplish and how would it move the needle forward for the club ?

Nothing we say or don’t say on an internet forum has any bearing on moving the needle forward for the club.

That’s purely down to the manager and the team. And so far he’s been a complete disaster. Whether you want to admit that or not.

 

[Posh Red]

Or he got his excuses in early.
And evidently they’ve worked on a large portion of our fans who have lapped it up. As they do with every single manager we hire.



That doesn’t excuse how bad a job he’s doing.



Nothing we say or don’t say on an internet forum has any bearing on moving the needle forward for the club.

That’s purely down to the manager and the team. And so far he’s been a complete disaster. Whether you want to admit that or not.

Some fans want to be patient and know that he’s staying for a while, regardless of short term results. Others want to vent on the internet. To each, his own. You can call that ‘lapping it up’, if it makes you feel better.

 

[Dominos]

At this point I find it very hard to read into the league games we're playing.

The players have given up on the league, we've always got one eye on the Thursday games, we've played a bunch of kids today against one of the most physical teams in the league knowing it would cost us.

You can say it's not acceptable to not be taking games 100% seriously, but that is what you're going to see in this sort of scenario.

Shipping 4 goals away from home late in the season when you have nothing to play for has become routine for us over the last 12 years, under multiple different managers.

 

[Raoul]

Nothing we say or don’t say on an internet forum has any bearing on moving the needle forward for the club.

That’s purely down to the manager and the team. And so far he’s been a complete disaster. Whether you want to admit that or not.

It all comes down to expectations. I never expected anything and always looked at this year as a complete write off because INEOS botched the Ten Hag sacking and more or less forced Amorim to join mid season. Given everything that happened, CL qualification will be a massive win for the club, and i suspect Ratcliffe, Berada, Wilcox, and Amorim will be delighted the club will be well positioned going into next year.

 

[Grizzly B]

While I very much want Amorim to succeed, I have to say our Premier League form is extremely concerning, and I am worried that we are going to buy players specifically for his system without really knowing if he is up to the task or not.

On the one hand, coming in mid season to a team very low on confidence with a very poor attack has to be taken into account - but I don't think our players are lower end premier league standard. Most of our players either have a track record of performing better (just to clarify I don't believe our players are good, just that they are not 14th to 17th premier league bad) for Manchester United or for other clubs that they simply cannot be this bad.

 

[dejans]

In before we hit 1000 pages.

 

[Cloud7]

Looking at replacements is a prospective strategy, interviewing would be proactive.

The problem United have is signing specific players who only fit Amorim's ideology and then having the team fail which recreates the revolving door rebuilding process again. Then the same conditions Amorim came into (which many are defending) is the exact same criteria the next manager who supercedes his tenure will have to experience again.

United's recruitment has constantly failed with the consensus of "backing the manager" in every window. Buying players who offer versatility across the pitch safeguards against an individual with a 28% win rate in the league.

The only players that would fit Amorim's ideology and literally no one else's would be a player who can only play WB, and I don't think we've actually signed any of those? I see no reason why Dorgu wouldn't be able to adjust to playing in a back 4. Other than that it's been CBs and CMs, who can fit any kind of setup. I suppose you could say Cunha maybe, but we can't rely on Bruno forever, and if we plan to play him deeper more often then Cunha is a good option as an offensive minded midfield player, especially of Mainoo can't grow to work around his physical limitations.

I don't understand what specific players we have been linked to who could only fit Amorim's ideology and no one else's?

 

[Zumbi]

Wasn't mid season no matter how many times people try to claim it. There's no excuse to be where we are.

It was. Mid season means “a point partway through a season”. It does not mean the exact middle of a season.

 

[the chameleon]

IMO, Amorim was a big mistake from the get go. We are buying into a niche playing style, which may or may not work. The fact is that we will eventually leave (on good terms or bad), with his niche playing style and niche players. It will then be the task of the new manager to clear his mess. We have chopped and changed philosophies too much. I find we just need someone who plays well, with simpler tactics that can get the best out of all players rather looking for niche players.

A top manager needs a plan b, c, d and e. The problem with these systems coaches is they struggle to adapt.