Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Why is ETH being constantly dragged into the conversation? Is this the United version of Khrushchev's Two Letters anecdote? He failed because tried to get the team to play in a particular way, the players couldn't respond, and the whole thing broke down. Now, we're trying to do something different, the players aren't responding well, again, and the team looks rudderless once more.

 

[Raoul]

Exactly what?

That Antony was in his squads right up until his departure and getting some decent minutes?

You are massively stretching.

My previous comment was in response to you asking about the keeper coach. Amorim's comment about that particular issue at the end of the clip.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I mean, if you take away goals from any team it would make for worse outcomes? Take away Maguire's goals and this season looks very different for Amorim too and that's saying something.

I mean, yes? Take Maguire out of this squad and we’re worse off. Which is something ETH seemed to want to do but couldn’t get across the line. What’s your point?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

My previous comment was in response to you asking about the keeper coach. Amorim's comment about that particular issue at the end of the clip.

Antony was on for 46 good minutes v Southampton and started the following week v Brighton, before departing to Betis a few days later.
Doesn’t really ring true with Amorim’s words about how he treats those who have bad attitudes to training.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Mate, you know 15 players can give the maximum every day and he can still only start 11 right?

He didn’t mean anyone on the bench doesn’t give maximum.

 

[RedRocket9908]

He did? Take away McTominay’s goals and last season would have ended very differently. Which became abundantly clear in the first half of this season.

That’s what’s so insane about the notion that ETH improved our squad from last season to this one. We know he didn’t because we got to watch this season’s squad under last season’s manager. And it was an absolute fecking disaster.

Mazraoui, Yoro, and De Ligt were an improvement on what we had in defence last season, Ugarte improved our midfield options, and Zirkzee while not an amazing signing has improved our attacking options.

 

[erikcred]

Why is ETH being constantly dragged into the conversation? Is this the United version of Khrushchev's Two Letters anecdote? He failed because tried to get the team to play in a particular way, the players couldn't respond, and the whole thing broke down. Now, we're trying to do something different, the players aren't responding well, again, and the team looks rudderless once more.

TIL!

 

[Raoul]

Antony was on for 46 good minutes v Southampton and started the following week v Brighton, before departing to Betis a few days later.
Doesn’t really ring true with Amorim’s words about how he treats those who have bad attitudes to training.

You might recall Garnacho was also in Amorim's dog house at the same time as Rashford, so some players did ultimately exhibit signs they were willing to do the work. Those that didn't were sent on loan. In Antony's case, he wasn't gaining any traction in Amorim's squad because players like Amad were often in the mix for the same starting spots. So whatever Amorim saw, he deemed it sufficiently inadequate and sent the player on loan. If he thought Antony was an asset who could help the team win, he would still be here.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Antony was on for 46 good minutes v Southampton and started the following week v Brighton, before departing to Betis a few days later.
Doesn’t really ring true with Amorim’s words about how he treats those who have bad attitudes to training.

I think Antony sealed his fate with a really poor performance in the Europa League. Can’t remember who against but he was rubbish. He did have some decent cameos as a sub but never really convinced. And the big problem with Antony is that he didn’t have any credit in the bank. You can bet your arse that none of the people on the football side of things at the club were telling Amorim he needed to show the guy more patience. Not when you hear Ratcliffe singling him out as a terrible waste of money. That was obviously the narrative throughout the club when Amorim took over. Antony’s goose was cooked when they sacked the manager who convinced the club to spend 80 million quid on him.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The biggest difference to this team in my opinion would be 2 new starting forwards, a CM and a keeper. It would be the same in a 4-3-3.

Regardless of signings, think of the difference in collective quality of what we have right now. Exact same team but imagine how much better suited one is than the other:

------------------- Onana -----------------
Maz ---- De Ligt ---- Yoro ---- Shaw
-------------- Case - Ugarte -----------
------------------- Bruno -----------------
Amad ---------------------------- Garnacho
----------------- Hojlund--------------------

11/11 players in the positions they have grown up playing. Bloody hard to break down + style suits all 4 attacking players. No reason a coach could not build off this to add more offensive ability and a high press.


vs

--------------------- Hojlund -----------------------
--------- Garnacho ----- Amad -------------
Dorgu ----- Bruno ----- Ugarte ------ Dalot
---------- Yoro --- De Ligt --- Maz ----------
------------------- Onana ------------------------

Bolded are playing a new variation of what they know or a different role altogether.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Mazraoui, Yoro, and De Ligt were an improvement on what we had in defence last season, Ugarte improved our midfield options, and Zirkzee while not an amazing signing has improved our attacking options.

So why were we in 14th place when Amorim took over?

 

[Mike Smalling]

Why is ETH being constantly dragged into the conversation? Is this the United version of Khrushchev's Two Letters anecdote? He failed because tried to get the team to play in a particular way, the players couldn't respond, and the whole thing broke down. Now, we're trying to do something different, the players aren't responding well, again, and the team looks rudderless once more.

What way could we actually ask these players to play, that would allow them to "respond"? I think that's the point of bringing in ETH to contextualize the results Amorim is getting. We had a manager that struggled mightily with these players last season and in the beginning of this season. Now we are still struggling under a new manager. The squad is rubbish.

 

[stepic]

The formation that suits basically every team in the league, a variation of 433.

It also make transfers much easier, WBs are hard to find, 10s are hard to find (Amorim 10's not normal 10's), outside CBs are harder to recruit. It also make bedding in the youth much easier as they don't go and play roles they don't train like Amass and Fredericson.

A 433 isn’t that dissimilar to what we do now, in terms of formation. You’re essentially substituting a CB for an additional midfielder. In reality that’s what, playing Maz or Dalot instead of Ugarte? The rest of the team would line up pretty similarly. In a variation of 433 that Klopp and Pep used to play you would have inside forwards with the fullbacks providing the width (Walker, Trent, Robertson). In Amorim’s system we should have at least one of the CBs pushing up to provide support, much like having that third mid.

Changing to a 433 isn’t magically going to solve all our issues, because we’d still be reliant on Hojlund up top not scoring, Garnacho’s inconsistent finishing, a lack of creative presence in midfield outside of Bruno, and so on.

What he’s trying to do is make us more of a possession based team, which requires players that have more technical ability, both in progressing the ball and also dealing with team’s pressing. That would be required whether we play 3 at the back or a 433. And no matter what formation we have we need players who can put the ball in the back of the net.

Training this system has shown him which players can and can’t be relied upon, hence why it’s important we didn’t just ‘play to the team’s strengths’ - doing that is not going to take us anywhere.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

It's funny how quickly discourse oscillates between "Amorim needs his own players to fit his specialized system in order to succeed" and "players signed for Amorim's system can easily fit into a more conventional system if things don't work out".

 

[croadyman]

A 433 isn’t that dissimilar to what we do now, in terms of formation. You’re essentially substituting a CB for an additional midfielder. In reality that’s what, playing Maz or Dalot instead of Ugarte? The rest of the team would line up pretty similarly. In a variation of 433 that Klopp and Pep used to play you would have inside forwards with the fullbacks providing the width (Walker, Trent, Robertson). In Amorim’s system we should have at least one of the CBs pushing up to provide support, much like having that third mid.

Changing to a 433 isn’t magically going to solve all our issues, because we’d still be reliant on Hojlund up top not scoring, Garnacho’s inconsistent finishing, a lack of creative presence in midfield outside of Bruno, and so on.

What he’s trying to do is make us more of a possession based style, which requires players that have more technical ability. That would be required whether we play 3 at the back or a 433. And no matter what formation we have we need players who can put the ball in the back of the net.

Training this system has shown him which players can and can’t be relied upon, hence why it’s important we didn’t just ‘play to the team’s strengths’ - doing that is not going to take us anywhere.

Hopefully he can either send Hojlund on loan, sell him or bring in that top striker so we aren't reliant on him

 

[Posh Red]

It's funny how quickly discourse oscillates between "Amorim needs his own players to fit his specialized system in order to succeed" and "players signed for Amorim's system can easily fit into a more conventional system if things don't work out".

Personally, I have never seen it as ‘players to fit his system’. It’s always been a question of quality, especially if we want to move away from reactionary, counter attacking football, which I assume most United fans would want to do.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You might recall Garnacho was also in Amorim's dog house at the same time as Rashford, so some players did ultimately exhibit signs they were willing to do the work. Those that didn't were sent on loan. In Antony's case, he wasn't gaining any traction in Amorim's squad because players like Amad were often in the mix for the same starting spots. So whatever Amorim saw, he deemed it sufficiently inadequate and sent the player on loan. If he thought Antony was an asset who could help the team win, he would still be here.

We’re in agreement on this, which is a completely different point entirely. I personally think it a mistake.

 

[soapythecat]

You’ve been banging this drum for days now.

I agree, the results in the PL have been unacceptable and Amorim deserves to be criticized accordingly. But you should be able to see the nuance here.

The focus of ire for those who want Amorim sacked is the formation, but our biggest problem by far is a lack of talent, technical ability and athleticism. Combine that with some tactically challenged footballers (Hojlund, Garnacho) and we are in 15th…

The experienced 24 to 28 year olds have been lost (Rashford, Sancho, Antony, Mctominay).

For me, the blame of this season is partially on Amorim because he has chosen to stick to a system rather than grind out results in a compact 4-2-3-1 and landing somewhere around 10th.

But this is the worst squad, talent wise, we’ve had in living memory. We have one great player (Bruno), that’s it. The rest are barely internationals. I believe Mainoo, Amad and maybe Yoro could develop into good squad players, but the rest are either too old (Casemiro, Maguire) or have serious warts (Ugarte, Maguire, DeLigt, Onana, Lindelof, Dalot, Hojlund, Licha). This is at least 50% of the problem. And is that on Amorim?

I’d like to see a really good window with 5 to 7 good players and see what Amorim can do. He should have a short leash, say 12 PL games. If we are in 6th, continue with the project, if not, he should be sacked.

The Glazers, INEOS and Ten Hag completely fecked up the last 4-5 years of recruitment.

I totally see the objective side to sticking with Amorim, regardless of my views of his ability in the PL, but I don’t see him getting 5-7 players this summer, nor do I feel the playing staff are as bad as many make out. Yes, they have been poor for a couple of seasons but the basics aren’t even getting done right now. Is that confidence in this system, coaching staff, methods?

His rigidness in regards to formation has totally been the clubs downfall in the league and I’m not sure many can dispute that. It may be looking a bit more stable of late, but we are coming from a pretty low baseline here. If he was really all that, he could have and should have mixed it up. If the club told him to stick to his system then they are as much to blame for putting him in at the wrong time. But one or two windows won’t fix this I feel. The system has been overly exposed time and time again, which worries me as a fan because it feels like ETH all over again this Summer.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I think Antony sealed his fate with a really poor performance in the Europa League. Can’t remember who against but he was rubbish. He did have some decent cameos as a sub but never really convinced. And the big problem with Antony is that he didn’t have any credit in the bank. You can bet your arse that none of the people on the football side of things at the club were telling Amorim he needed to show the guy more patience. Not when you hear Ratcliffe singling him out as a terrible waste of money. That was obviously the narrative throughout the club when Amorim took over. Antony’s goose was cooked when they sacked the manager who convinced the club to spend 80 million quid on him.

Yeah absolutely.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Why is ETH being constantly dragged into the conversation? Is this the United version of Khrushchev's Two Letters anecdote? He failed because tried to get the team to play in a particular way, the players couldn't respond, and the whole thing broke down. Now, we're trying to do something different, the players aren't responding well, again, and the team looks rudderless once more.

This is a squad that ETH alongside Murtough and Arnold put together.

It's a complete nonsense to talk about Amorim's struggles without taking the completely haphazard job that his predecessors had done into consideration. It boggles my mind that anyone would think otherwise.

 

[Sarni]

So why were we in 14th place when Amorim took over?

To be fair (and you know how badly I had wanted ETH out) we were unlucky to not come away with more than 1 point from Brighton, Palace and West Ham games, we were at least a match for Brighton and the better team against Palace and West Ham. We had two truly horrific performances in the league against Liverpool and Spurs, a dull draw v Villa and a few uninspiring but decent wins against Fulham, Southampton and Brentford.

It has unfortunately got worse since. After City game, we have only beaten Fulham, Southampton, Leicester and Ipswich, and you can probably argue that we were far from impressive in all of these games (especially Southampton which was just an abomination of a performance up until the final 20 minutes). We've lost to Bournemouth, Forest (twice), Palace, Wolves (twice), Newcastle (twice) and Brentford, a lot of teams that we should at least be competitive against. We were really 5 minutes away from crashing out to Lyon and genuinely having one of the most embarrassing seasons ever by a big club (which we could still actually have should we drop out to Athletic in 3 days, which I genuinely would not put past us).

It's not a perfect team but I don't really buy the idea that it's relegation quality, or one of the worst teams assembled in PL, which our results would indicate. If it's genuinely that bad then we should have given more credit (and time) to ten Hag as he had us performing at a better level. Just like I thought during ETH's time though, I think manager's job is first and foremost getting the best out of the players he has at his disposal. If he can't do that, the ceiling is always going to be low.

 

[NotChatGPT]

I don't think there is a struggle to comprehend for most posters, I think that's just an easy way of saying that they don't understand your point. Most do, they just don't think its as drastic as you are making it out to be. When Ten Hag was hired he was left a "garbage squad". This was on the back of Ragnick saying the squad needed open heart surgery. 1 season later, the players were deemed not as bad as we thought after getting 3rd and a cup. Get a competent manager in, this squad won't be top 4, but it will be a hell of a lot more competitive than what Amorim is showing. And this is where the real disconnect is between yourself and those pushing a similar argument. Amorim hasn't been left a great squad to work with, everybody knows that. However, he hasn't been left a squad that should be 2 points away from 17th. That is just some defeatist, feeble, non United thinking. If the squad is top half quality which it is, he should finish top half not given excuses to finish 17th. Its like saying Rasmus has not hope of winning the golden boot so don't worry about how many goals he's scores. If anything, we spent large parts of last season with a worse squad due to the amount of injuries we had.

And these are the points that those who are disregarding Amorim's poor perfomance aren't able to answer.
- If you fire a manager because he has been underperformed in his start to a season, you do so because you expect the following manager to perform better. He hasn't.
- If you need time for the players to get used to a formation, more than half a season of playing and training (of which the excuse of not having time to train has suddenly dissappeared) should be more than sufficient to show progress of which there is not
- if the idea is that he needs the pre-season to get them used to it then it makes it even more silly to hire him mid season, also brings into doubt what he will be able to do in pre-season as he has had more than half season already with the squad
- If its that he needs new players, he got in Dorgu who has made no noticeable difference to our performances

No matter what you look at, its just poor all round from Amorim in almost every metric and with all the allowances of the Sale to Ineos, being left Ten Hag's squad etc, even with those allowances he shouldn't be doing as poorly as he is doing, and again, even Amorim would admit that.

Meh, i don't think the performances have been that bad, not anywhere near as bad as our league table position suggests. In general i think people underestimate the mentality side of things, lack of confidence when things are bad over a period of time. Leicester went from winning the league to nearly getting relegated the following season.

Another factor is that we are fairly shit in key positions. With the overall quality of the league i think people underestimate how easy it is to get rolled over. Athleticism is crucial.

In terms of your points.

- If you fire a manager because he has been underperformed in his start to a season, you do so because you expect the following manager to perform better. He hasn't.

It depends on the overall situation. In our case, i'd be more inclined to suggest that you obviously hope that there will be an instant performance boost but you're thinking long term rather than short term. It doesn't really chance anything ref the need to sack the previous manager, not in ETH's case and not in Ole's case, even though Rangnick wasn't much of an improvement.

- If you need time for the players to get used to a formation, more than half a season of playing and training (of which the excuse of not having time to train has suddenly dissappeared) should be more than sufficient to show progress of which there is not
Not sure i see your point. There has been progress on the way we're playing. It was hardly just an excuse that there wasn't time to properly train and focus on formation changes, tactics, in a period where there was too many matches. It's not binary.

- if the idea is that he needs the pre-season to get them used to it then it makes it even more silly to hire him mid season, also brings into doubt what he will be able to do in pre-season as he has had more than half season already with the squad

The idea would again be that it's not binary, it can be a combination of several things. You bring in players to strengthen areas identified as key areas, players have had a period of time to get used to formations and how the manager generally wants to play. Manager is more used to the league.

- If its that he needs new players, he got in Dorgu who has made no noticeable difference to our performances

Ah, so the recently turned 20-year old Dorgu is evidence that signing players has no noticeable difference to our performances. Great. It feels like a bit of a silly take, to be honest. For right or wrong, Dorgu was identified as a player to bring in. It doesn't mean he's going to be an instant hit, and him being an instant hit or not doesn't have to reflect on the managers abilities as a manager. Vidic and Evra looked like championship players when we brought them in during january. It's not the first, and it won't be the last, time that players take time to adjust.

 

[roseguy64]

And miss out the chance of managing the biggest club in the world. Ye get a grip mate. If it’s now or never then he’s going to choose now isn’t he.

Well then it's no longer an excuse. He took the job knowing that.

 

[Raoul]

No he can't. No one forced him to do anything. He could have said no. He accepted the job so that is no longer valid.

A strange take given that virtually zero managers would ever turn down the chance to coach Man United. So of course he was going to take the offer, even if it was a massive risk to begin mid season.

 

[Teja]

Quite possible yes.



Now I'm all for giving Amorim more time. But I think that's a dangerous line of thinking because it excuses just how bad we've been. I reckon privately neither the club nor Amorim himself would have expected things to be this bad regardless of what was said in early press conferences to set expectations.

Yeah I agree. INEOS and Amorim both get till Dec this year to prove they know what they're doing for me. If we don't improve significantly next season then I'm ready to change my mind.

 

[roseguy64]

I don't think that's unreasonable. Villa and Newcastle have shown that it doesn't take more than much more than a summer to turn a club into top 4.

Yeah but those clubs had managers appointed mid-season previously who instantly improved the fortunes of their clubs. They rode the momentum of that to top 4. Amorim will have to be going against the norm to do that.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

This is a squad that ETH alongside Murtough and Arnold put together.

It's a complete nonsense to talk about Amorim's struggles without taking the completely haphazard job that his predecessors had done into consideration. It boggles my mind that anyone would think otherwise.

Then, sorry, but your mind can get easily boggled, my friend. I am not arguing that the squad is good or that Amorim shouldn't sign his own players. ETH was lucky to finish 8th last season with the game plan he presented. He was, belatedly, judged for that and, subsequently, lost his job. OK? Let's get this out of the way. A new guy comes in, and the football he is currently trying to implement shares very few of the previous guy's principles. The team, though, continues to fail spectacularly on the pitch. By trying to play differently. Why should ETH's underlying metrics be a one-size-fits-all excuse for the new guy?

 

[Leftback99]

Regardless of signings, think of the difference in collective quality of what we have right now. Exact same team but imagine how much better suited one is than the other:

------------------- Onana -----------------
Maz ---- De Ligt ---- Yoro ---- Shaw
-------------- Case - Ugarte -----------
------------------- Bruno -----------------
Amad ---------------------------- Garnacho
----------------- Hojlund--------------------

11/11 players in the positions they have grown up playing. Bloody hard to break down + style suits all 4 attacking players. No reason a coach could not build off this to add more offensive ability and a high press.


vs

--------------------- Hojlund -----------------------
--------- Garnacho ----- Amad -------------
Dorgu ----- Bruno ----- Ugarte ------ Dalot
---------- Yoro --- De Ligt --- Maz ----------
------------------- Onana ------------------------

Bolded are playing a new variation of what they know or a different role altogether.

Both teams look poor to me. I've seen both of them.

Missing our best CB Maguire though for some reason.

 

[sammyhol]

Regardless of signings, think of the difference in collective quality of what we have right now. Exact same team but imagine how much better suited one is than the other:

------------------- Onana -----------------
Maz ---- De Ligt ---- Yoro ---- Shaw
-------------- Case - Ugarte -----------
------------------- Bruno -----------------
Amad ---------------------------- Garnacho
----------------- Hojlund--------------------

11/11 players in the positions they have grown up playing. Bloody hard to break down + style suits all 4 attacking players. No reason a coach could not build off this to add more offensive ability and a high press.

vs

--------------------- Hojlund -----------------------
--------- Garnacho ----- Amad -------------
Dorgu ----- Bruno ----- Ugarte ------ Dalot
---------- Yoro --- De Ligt --- Maz ----------
------------------- Onana ------------------------

Bolded are playing a new variation of what they know or a different role altogether.

I've been banging this drum for months pal. People just won't have it.

You will no doubt get the "well that was working well for ETH wasn't it??" comments...

Regardless of the fact that ETH was playing a suicidal 4-1---------4-1 for 18 months, with a gap in midfield you could park a jumbo jet in.

And the fact that the last time we played the shape you suggest we had a very good season.

The squad is nowhere near as bad as either of these managers have made it look. Minor tweaks after ETHs first season (a midfield partner with legs to partner Case instead of Mount, and a striker with legs to replace Ronaldo) and we would have still been competing in and around the top four.

The reason we have looked so awful for 2+ years is the completely unnecessary system changes.

 

[JPRouve]

I've been banging this drum for months pal. People just won't have it.

You will no doubt get the "well that was working well for ETH wasn't it??" comments...

Regardless of the fact that ETH was playing a suicidal 4-1---------4-1 for 18 months, with a gap in midfield you could park a jumbo jet in.

And the fact that the last time we played the shape you suggest we had a very good season.

The squad is nowhere near as bad as either of these managers have made it look. Minor tweaks after ETHs first season (a midfield partner with legs to partner Case instead of Mount, and a striker with legs to replace Ronaldo) and we would have still been competing in and around the top four.

The reason we have looked so awful for 2+ years is the completely unnecessary system changes.

You are giving ETH a lot of credit. The lunatic had usplay in 2-1-------------------34. He had both fullbacks bombing forward, he even had them as targets for long balls from the goalkeeper.

 

[tomaldinho1]

A 433 isn’t that dissimilar to what we do now, in terms of formation. You’re essentially substituting a CB for an additional midfielder. In reality that’s what, playing Maz or Dalot instead of Ugarte? The rest of the team would line up pretty similarly. In a variation of 433 that Klopp and Pep used to play you would have inside forwards with the fullbacks providing the width (Walker, Trent, Robertson). In Amorim’s system we should have at least one of the CBs pushing up to provide support, much like having that third mid.

Changing to a 433 isn’t magically going to solve all our issues, because we’d still be reliant on Hojlund up top not scoring, Garnacho’s inconsistent finishing, a lack of creative presence in midfield outside of Bruno, and so on.

What he’s trying to do is make us more of a possession based style, which requires players that have more technical ability. That would be required whether we play 3 at the back or a 433. And no matter what formation we have we need players who can finish.

It's a pretty huge difference in and out of possession.

Why would a CB need to push up in a 433, it didn't always happen in Klopp's system, it's not some unwritten rule of a 433? The RB and LB should attack if we want to be offensive (this is probably the biggest issue United have missed post SAF in my mind, with Shaw when fit being the only exception). It's weird people keep saying but Hojlund, but Garnacho, as if we didn't play them last year and have a direct reference point. We know they are both better in a direct 433, even one as bonkers as ETH's. Sure we should upgrade but they are who we have right now.

No one has said a 433 magically changes anything, but why do so many teams play it? Can you name me a single team that plays 343 high possession without a press? Because that is what we play.

 

[Ubik]

Personally, I have never seen it as ‘players to fit his system’. It’s always been a question of quality, especially if we want to move away from reactionary, counter attacking football, which I assume most United fans would want to do.

Yeah, it's pretty straightforward and not really contradictory. I complained about the players last year whilst wanting ten Hag to go, it's not system specific.

 

[JPRouve]

It's a pretty huge difference in and out of possession.

Why would a CB need to push up in a 433, it didn't always happen in Klopp's system, it's not some unwritten rule of a 433? The RB and LB should attack if we want to be offensive (this is probably the biggest issue United have missed post SAF in my mind, with Shaw when fit being the only exception). It's weird people keep saying but Hojlund, but Garnacho, as if we didn't play them last year and have a direct reference point. We know they are both better in a direct 433, even one as bonkers as ETH's. Sure we should upgrade but they are who we have right now.

No one has said a 433 magically changes anything, but why do so many teams play it? Can you name me a single team that plays 343 high possession without a press? Because that is what we play.

In theory it's easy to balance and tweak. And from a squad building standpoint it allows to have all options open, some systems require specialists or at least players that are comfortable in relatively peculiar roles, a 442 diamond is an example.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I've been banging this drum for months pal. People just won't have it.

You will no doubt get the "well that was working well for ETH wasn't it??" comments...

Regardless of the fact that ETH was playing a suicidal 4-1---------4-1 for 18 months, with a gap in midfield you could park a jumbo jet in.

And the fact that the last time we played the shape you suggest we had a very good season.

The squad is nowhere near as bad as either of these managers have made it look. Minor tweaks after ETHs first season (a midfield partner with legs to partner Case instead of Mount, and a striker with legs to replace Ronaldo) and we would have still been competing in and around the top four.

The reason we have looked so awful for 2+ years is the completely unnecessary system changes.

It is annoying ETH gets brought up as proof a 433 doesn't work, as if he was the master of it and no one else could ever coach it (despite 90% of coaches in existence).

 

[roseguy64]

A strange take given that virtually zero managers would ever turn down the chance to coach Man United. So of course he was going to take the offer, even if it was a massive risk to begin mid season.

Managers have turned down Man Utd before. And fine, he took the offer. People then can't use this as an excuse for him. He had enough belief to think it wouldn't matter for him then so it doesn't count.

 

[Posh Red]

Managers have turned down Man Utd before. And fine, he took the offer. People then can't use this as an excuse for him. He had enough belief to think it wouldn't matter for him then so it doesn't count.

Or, he was hired on a mutual understanding, which seems extremely likely given the lack of any apparent pressure on his job.

 

[CM]

Regardless of signings, think of the difference in collective quality of what we have right now. Exact same team but imagine how much better suited one is than the other:

------------------- Onana -----------------
Maz ---- De Ligt ---- Yoro ---- Shaw
-------------- Case - Ugarte -----------
------------------- Bruno -----------------
Amad ---------------------------- Garnacho
----------------- Hojlund--------------------

11/11 players in the positions they have grown up playing. Bloody hard to break down + style suits all 4 attacking players. No reason a coach could not build off this to add more offensive ability and a high press.


vs

--------------------- Hojlund -----------------------
--------- Garnacho ----- Amad -------------
Dorgu ----- Bruno ----- Ugarte ------ Dalot
---------- Yoro --- De Ligt --- Maz ----------
------------------- Onana ------------------------

Bolded are playing a new variation of what they know or a different role altogether.

I feel similarly. I think recruitment for the summer would be far simpler in a conventional 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 as well. We could quite easily focus resources towards a couple of midfielders who are far more comfortable in possession, fast wingers who offer threat and a striker.

I feel like the temptation with this 3-4-2-1 will be to re-divert most of those resources towards the extra CB, wingbacks, midfielders who are primarily athletes rather than technicians and inside forwards who aren't traditional wingers. I just feel like it's going to take so much money and work to undo all of that if it doesn't work out with Amorim, which I don't think it will. It feels very messy and I don't like it.

 

[roseguy64]

I've been banging this drum for months pal. People just won't have it.

You will no doubt get the "well that was working well for ETH wasn't it??" comments...

Regardless of the fact that ETH was playing a suicidal 4-1---------4-1 for 18 months, with a gap in midfield you could park a jumbo jet in.

And the fact that the last time we played the shape you suggest we had a very good season.

The squad is nowhere near as bad as either of these managers have made it look. Minor tweaks after ETHs first season (a midfield partner with legs to partner Case instead of Mount, and a striker with legs to replace Ronaldo) and we would have still been competing in and around the top four.

The reason we have looked so awful for 2+ years is the completely unnecessary system changes.

We've looked competent under both ETH and RVN both this and last season when we played more to the player's strengths than wanting to play basketball. So the players can shine in a good setup.

 

[DJ_21]

Well then it's no longer an excuse. He took the job knowing that.

Ye and he’d have been given assurances that his job is safe going into next season.

 

[roseguy64]

Or, he was hired on a mutual understanding, which seems extremely likely given the lack of any apparent pressure on his job.

That mutual understanding is between him and the board, not him and the fans. We shouldn't be using that to defend him. He had agency to not take the job. He backed himself and hasn't done a good enough job so far.