Former players doing well

Pogue Mahone

Clarkson the Helicopter Dad.
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Thinking about McT’s (and Lukaku’s) exploits last night got me thinking about why players can leave United and look much better in a different club/league.

I think it’s just the simple fact that every player looks better in a successful team than a failing one. So you could take most of our squad, parachute them into a good team, under a winning manager and they would look like a far better player than they do at United.

For this to not be true we’d need examples of players that leave United, go to a mid to bottom half of the table team and look like a much improved version of the player we knew? Has anyone got any examples of this happening?

For the record, I’m delighted for McT and don’t want to belittle his achievement but can’t get past the fact that Lukaku is having a similarly great season after ending up playing for a club/manager that has built a successful team which he can slot into. And nobody would have claimed we fecked up by letting Lukaku leave before now.
 
The pressure to play for United is incredible, I think the scouts need to look more at not just pure talent or ability but the right mentality. The media attention is like nothing else in England and only maybe El Clasico teams can compare in Europe. There’s a whole media industrial complex of just talking about Man United. Every little thing you do is scrutinised.

You see the likes of Casemiro in his first season, Ibrahimovic and Cavani that come here and make an instant impact because they have the personality for it. Unfortunately they all came past their best.

Too many players just collapse under the pressure, Sancho a notable one. I’ll always remember Schneiderlin, looked a perfect signing, a beast for Southampton and ready to make the move up. Just completely bottled it here and was so underwhelming. It’s hard to overcome that but maybe just identifying psychological profiles and getting to know players better before they’re bought could be a start.
 
I think it's safe to say a lot of players will perform better in environments that aren't as high-pressure as ours, which is probably a better reflection of their qualities as a footballer. For whatever reason, the pressure of performing at United seems like such a hard thing for a lot of them to really vibe with, and it's why there's some truth in the oft-touted idea we need mental monsters to handle the scrutiny (on the pitch and in the media). It's hard to build an entire squad around them though.

Sadly, it's unclear what they'll be like until they're here and have to react to something going awry. It's probably why players who've played in high-pressure situations (Zlatan, Case, etc) have thrived, whereas younger players have wilted.

Unsure if this is what you're asking but examples of players who've improved since leaving us in the last few years would be McT, Wan Bissaka, Elanga, Dean Henderson, Chris Smalling, Andres Pereira, Angel Gomes.

Even Darmian, Danny James, Jimmy Garner, and Mkhitaryan are doing well at their respective clubs.

If I'm giving a controversial opinion, I think this is why we did well with Mourinho and Solskjaer. One brought a siege mentality (aka everyone hates us) and the other brought back the feel-good factor. Neither were sustainable in the long run but their styles complemented the pressure factor. One made out that everyone was against us to galvanise the team; the other made sure everyone wasn't made to feel like the entire world was against them when things went sour.
 
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Facebook is a wash with McT stories today. Hes done well in italy but the bottom line is he wasn't very good at United. Ironically he did improve in his last year scoring some goals.
 
Lingard at West Ham. But that was a few years ago now. It’s clearly just another case of a player moving to a team who could afford to use him in a role where we had better players. I am still more upset about James Garner leaving than McTominay even after last night. Glad for him. Great professional who I hope continues to do well. But no regrets.
 
Maybe we need to remove the unnecessary pressure, because it is nothing but counterproductive. The club is in 16th place. These "high standards" are actually non-existent. Accept the lower pressure that comes with being a mid tier club for now and work back up the ladder.
 
RedIan said:
Facebook is a wash with McT stories today. Hes done well in italy but the bottom line is he wasn't very good at United. Ironically he did improve in his last year scoring some goals.
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McTominay was always an absolute passenger in build-up, despite being a good lad and working hard, he was almost a luxury player who was good for late runs into the box, a poor man’s Lampard. So really McTominay should have been competing with Bruno and Bruno was better. If you swapped Bruno for McTominay for Napoli I’m sure they’d win the league too.

Funnily enough I think if you gave McTominay the same number of minutes up front as Hojlund up front this season, I’m confident he scores more than 4 goals and is far more of a threat.
 
It does worry me they I think if you offered me an eleven of former academy players v a team we’ve assembled for a bill I’d rather the former .
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
The pressure to play for United is incredible, I think the scouts need to look more at not just pure talent or ability but the right mentality. The media attention is like nothing else in England and only maybe El Clasico teams can compare in Europe. There’s a whole media industrial complex of just talking about Man United. Every little thing you do is scrutinised.

You see the likes of Casemiro in his first season, Ibrahimovic and Cavani that come here and make an instant impact because they have the personality for it. Unfortunately they all came past their best.

Too many players just collapse under the pressure, Sancho a notable one. I’ll always remember Schneiderlin, looked a perfect signing, a beast for Southampton and ready to make the move up. Just completely bottled it here and was so underwhelming. It’s hard to overcome that but maybe just identifying psychological profiles and getting to know players better before they’re bought could be a start.
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Henry's own personal experience is that the media pressure in Spain(particularly at Barcelona/Madrid) is much worse than in the Premier League.

And I think he's right.

But I do agree with your general point. Pressure makes or breaks players, but it's not exclusive to United.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m not sure about this “pressure” thing. Italians are fecking football crazy and the focus in Naples on Napoli potentially winning Serie A must have been insane.
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Insane sure but when you know people are getting tattoos of your face on their bollocks and naming pizzerias in your honour there's a lot of love too. Must really inspire them to get over the line.
 
adexkola said:
Maybe we need to remove the unnecessary pressure, because it is nothing but counterproductive. The club is in 16th place. These "high standards" are actually non-existent. Accept the lower pressure that comes with being a mid tier club for now and work back up the ladder.
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hard to remove the pressure cause this is Manchester United. Every new manager that comes in expected to do a Ferguson, every young players expected to be the class of 92. This season we finished 16th/17th but come next season fans expect to challenge the tile again :lol:
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
You see the likes of Casemiro in his first season, Ibrahimovic and Cavani that come here and make an instant impact because they have the personality for it. Unfortunately they all came past their best.
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I completely agree with this. We need players who are mentally resilient, confident, and perhaps even a bit arrogant. Easier said than done though.
 
I suppose Jonny Evans is an example leaving United and proving himself to be a very good player at West Brom then Leicester. Though plenty of us always knew his quality.
 
It's a bit of everything

Crap owners who don't care about football and failed to invest in infrastructure for decades

Shit dressing room where its cliquey and noone takes real responsibility for dragging standards up.

Toxic online fans obsessed with abusing them when they don't play well (which in sport is a normal thing to happen, particularly as you are developing)

Swinging from coach to coach with wildly differing playstyles and having no balance and quality in key positions, making it hard to build momentum and it being difficult to get the best out of each player due to that
 
So, Scott McT will be playing in the champions league next season while we might make it through to the fourth round of the league cup...
Pogue Mahone said:
Thinking about McT’s (and Lukaku’s) exploits last night got me thinking about why players can leave United and look much better in a different club/league.

I think it’s just the simple fact that every player looks better in a successful team than a failing one. So you could take most of our squad, parachute them into a good team, under a winning manager and they would look like a far better player than they do at United.

For this to not be true we’d need examples of players that leave United, go to a mid to bottom half of the table team and look like a much improved version of the player we knew? Has anyone got any examples of this happening?

For the record, I’m delighted for McT and don’t want to belittle his achievement but can’t get past the fact that Lukaku is having a similarly great season after ending up playing for a club/manager that has built a successful team which he can slot into. And nobody would have claimed we fecked up by letting Lukaku leave before now.
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I never doubted he was a good player - it helps if you play alongside other good players, which he didn't at United. Just seen his goal for Napoli on the last day of the season: an overhead kick Mark Hughes would have been proud of
 
Wumminator said:
The pressure is from our own fans. We’re not a supportive club.
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I would heavily disagree with that.

If Amorim had this kind of season at Madrid and Barcelona, the fans would have been relentless at the stadium.

The match-going fans are incredibly supportive here.

ETH managed a side that lost 4-0 vs Palace last season and I'm pretty sure the fans sang his name afterwards. That would never happen at Real or Barcelona.

I'm not saying the approach is necessarily wrong, but other clubs' fans bring more pressure to the club.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m not sure about this “pressure” thing. Italians are fecking football crazy and the focus in Naples on Napoli potentially winning Serie A must have been insane.
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I don't think there is any notable pressure at united.
 
Wumminator said:
The pressure is from our own fans. We’re not a supportive club.
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We are in the stands but you're right the culture isn't supportive in the slightest. Liverpool are a fantastic example of what we're not because even in their shite years their fans had a ridiculously amount of support for the team. That cult-like aura is easy to make fun (Kopites etc) of but it's also a very useful thing.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
I would heavily disagree with that.

If Amorim had this kind of season at Madrid and Barcelona, the fans would have been relentless at the stadium.

The match-going fans are incredibly supportive here.

ETH managed a side that lost 4-0 vs Palace last season and I'm pretty sure the fans sang his name afterwards. That would never happen at Real or Barcelona.

I'm not saying the approach is necessarily wrong, but other clubs' fans bring more pressure to the club.
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Not match going fans.

Online.
 
If you look at the players, many of them were given ample opportunity to perform and show that they had the mentality and ability to perform for Utd week in week out under high pressure.

They failed and they are gone from the club for good reason, let's not pretend otherwise.
 
Lukaku wasn't bad for Utd overall. He just wasn't Andy Cole/RVN/Yorke/Hughes/Ole etc Goal record was good but his all round game and finesse was lacking if Utd wanted to be a title challenging team.

The problem is Utd have consistently replaced these guys who weren't quite good enough to win Utd the league with inferior players and have spiraled lower and lower to the point that the level of the players we got rid of would now comfortably improve Utd and raise the standards. Quite something to see.

Got rid of Smalling to commit to Lindelof
De Gea to go to Onana
Pogba to Donny

And so on and on.
 
Wumminator said:
Not match going fans.

Online.
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Every club has that with the rise of social media. Look at certain Madrid fan accounts on twitter and they would have you believe Ancelotti is the worst manager in the world.

It's not unique to United only.
 
Think of it this way, if McT had never been at United and we were linked with him now, we would be excited. But we already know that he wasn't great here. Better players than McT have failed here.
 
Vidyoyo said:
Insane sure but when you know people are getting tattoos of your face on their bollocks and naming pizzerias in your honour there's a lot of love too. Must really inspire them to get over the line.
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Haggis Ndjua Pizza I hope.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
Think of it this way, if McT has never been at United and we were linked with him now, we would be excited. But we already know that he wasn't great here. Better players than McT have failed here.
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I don't think so, because he's excelling in a position that's occupied by a better player here.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
The pressure to play for United is incredible, I think the scouts need to look more at not just pure talent or ability but the right mentality. The media attention is like nothing else in England and only maybe El Clasico teams can compare in Europe. There’s a whole media industrial complex of just talking about Man United. Every little thing you do is scrutinised.

You see the likes of Casemiro in his first season, Ibrahimovic and Cavani that come here and make an instant impact because they have the personality for it. Unfortunately they all came past their best.

Too many players just collapse under the pressure, Sancho a notable one. I’ll always remember Schneiderlin, looked a perfect signing, a beast for Southampton and ready to make the move up. Just completely bottled it here and was so underwhelming. It’s hard to overcome that but maybe just identifying psychological profiles and getting to know players better before they’re bought could be a start.
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Pressure? What pressure? Our players plays like newbs. Making countless errors (Onana), not even breaking a sweat, yet the fans stood by them nonstop
 
Vidyoyo said:
Madrid are not the norm. They're the only comparable club to us, but they exist in a far less competitive league where they still have financial clout that is leaps and bounds above the competition.
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Sure, but I don't see what relevance that has regarding the fan pressure.

Their most decorated manager has been hounded by the majority of their fans all season.

That would never ever happen here.
 
Think a big part of it is the fact the Italian league isn’t as good as the PL.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
I don't think so, because he's excelling in a position that's occupied by a better player here.
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We would have considered him one of the 10s with Bruno. He would have started the final instead of Mount. I don't want him back but there was a place for him.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
Sure, but I don't see what relevance that has regarding the fan pressure.

Their most decorated manager has been hounded by the majority of their fans all season.

That would never ever happen here.
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Sorry, deleted my post as I don't massively disagree with you on this. Madrid keep standards high and I'd say that's a significant reason why they continue to do well.

It's pressure but of a different kind - like okay we'll invite you to see how well you do and if you don't do well we'll find somebody else quickly to replace you (both managers and players). Very relentless standards.
 
Vidyoyo said:
Sorry, deleted my post as I don't massively disagree with you on this. Madrid keep standards high and I'd say that's a significant reason why they continue to do well.

It's pressure but of a different kind - like okay we'll invite you to see how well you do and if you don't do well we'll find somebody else quickly to replace you (both managers and players). Very relentless standards.
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I agree with this.

I know many here dislike the way they do things, but I think we should keep standards high too.

For what it's worth, I don't agree with how their fans have treated Ancelotti, but I also think they're right to move on. If that situation played out at United, I doubt the collective fanbase would be happy to move on. They'd be furious at the board for even thinking of replacing him.
 
Vidyoyo said:
It's not but then there are examples like Elanga at Forest if we want to stay domestic. Looks like night and day comparing his time with us. I could see the same thing happening with a few of our players if they're to leave (Garnacho being one).
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He’s playing well in a very specific system to be fair.
 
Wumminator said:
The pressure is from our own fans. We’re not a supportive club.
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Absolute bollocks.

I see you’ve later said online, which @Eddy_JukeZ has pointed out is simply a general social media thing. How people are still linking fan rumblings on fan forums to players performances is beyond me.
United players and managers get off lightly.

That in itself might be a bit of the problem.

I’ve posted this on this forum before because of people spouting what you’re spouting ..

This is Lyon ultras, openly giving a massive dressing down to Lyon players on the fecking pitch after underperformance.

 
Ludens the Red said:
Absolute bollocks.

I see you’ve later said online, which @Eddy_JukeZ has pointed out is simply a general social media thing. How people are still linking fan rumblings on fan forums to players performances is beyond me.
United players and managers get off lightly.

That in itself might be a bit of the problem.

I’ve posted this on this forum before because of people spouting what you’re spouting ..

This is Lyon ultras, openly giving a massive dressing down to Lyon players on the fecking pitch after underperformance.

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Of course fan rumblings impacts player performances. You can clearly see how someone like Garnacho this year has been hurt by the online nonsense.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m not sure about this “pressure” thing. Italians are fecking football crazy and the focus in Naples on Napoli potentially winning Serie A must have been insane.
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That's positive pressure though - pushing towards success. The goal is clear, the target is set, and the players desperately want to achieve it. We want to win because winning would be great.

We don't have that. We were finishing second and third not long ago and it was a disaster then too, with everyone shite and needing to be replaced. Had we beaten Spurs we'd have had a barbeque, not a parade, because here you can win trophies and still be considered an utter failure who doesn't deserve to enjoy any successes. Just don't fail because failure will be terrible.

It's the difference between being inspired and being threatened.
 
Whatever it is it happens way too often to consider it a coincidence or bad luck. There's something very wrong at United.

Just look at these last departures:

McTominay, Serie A champion and MVP

Antony, tearing it up at Betis 9 goal contributions

De Gea, came back to top level at Fiorentina

Greenwood, league 1 joint top scorer

Carreras, amazing season at Benfica attracting big clubs such as Madrid

Elanga, awesome season at forest fighting for European spots.

Wan Bissaka, voted West Ham's player of the season.

It's amazing really how good they find form after leaving our club. Safe to say it's not a players problem but a rotten culture problem, too much evidence to simply ignore.
 
It’s really annoying to see. When players, managers or back room staff leave us, I want it to be all downhill. We should be the zenith of anyone’s career. Making £3.50 an hour as a matchday steward? That’s as good as it gets. Play for the youth team, only to be shown the door at 17 because you’re not quite good enough? I wish you and any future generations a lifetime of struggle and poverty. You drive past Old Trafford and leave it behind in your rear view mirror? I hope every future journey involves a life changing crash.
 
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