This pretty much sums it up.
It doesn't get any more ridiculous than this...
- Thread starter MikeUpNorth
- Start date
This pretty much sums it up.
The second example is NOT an example of slander; you cannot slander the dead, that is a fact.
Also, if someone wanted to express the criticism of Muhammed raised in the second example, how should they do it in any more a polite way than was written?
Why not?
http://www.urban75.org/info/libel.html - "However libel does not extend to the dead. Nor is being abusive libelous."
http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/libel_and_slander/dead_person_slander.htm
Seriously though, is there any difference between a comedic satire of Jesus / Muhammed than of, say, Prince Philip?
I suppose he's referring to the fact that Mohammad is supposed to have married a 6-7 year old. It can't really be called slander though by the standards of the time, it can't have been unusual.
Not if you are are a religious royalist
Or indeed if you worship him...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Philip_Movement
If only I could gain some deluded followers, then I would be deemed immune from satire or insult in the eyes of a lot of people apparently
Legally you mean. That's fine - but you could no doubt do reputational damage to someone who's dead because you spread nasty untruths about him or her.
'Blasphemy' teacher appears in court
A British primary school teacher appeared in a Sudanese court today after being charged with "insulting religion and inciting hatred" for allowing children in her class to name a teddy bear Muhammad.
Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, has been held by police in the Sudanese capital, Khartoum, since Sunday, accused of insulting the prophet Muhammad. If found guilty, she could be given 40 lashes, a fine or a six-month jail term.
The foreign secretary, David Miliband, who met the Sudanese ambassador, Omer Mohamed Ahmed, in London today to discuss Gibbons's case, said British diplomats would "do everything to avoid" such a sentence.
"There is an innocent misunderstanding at the heart of this, not a criminal offence," he said.
The Sudanese prosecutor general, Salah Eddin Abu Zaid, said Gibbons, whose case has drawn international condemnation, could expect a swift and fair trial.
"We don't think this will be a long trial, because there is only one article of the penal code to handle," Abu Zaid said.
He said he had met Gibbons yesterday and that the "the lady was fine". She had been provided with a team of lawyers and translators as well as a bed and mattress in her cell, he said.
A spokesman for the prime minister, Gordon Brown, said the government would consider that further steps might be necessary in the light of the meeting with the ambassador today.
He said: "We need to understand the rationale for why Mrs Gibbons has been charged and get a clearer understanding of what the circumstances are ... before we move to the next stage." Full consular assistance would continue to be made available, the spokesman said.
Despite her colleagues insisting Gibbons had made an innocent mistake, Sudan's deputy justice minister confirmed yesterday that the teacher had been charged. "The investigation has been completed and the Briton Gillian was charged under article 125 of the penal code," said Abdel Daim Zamrawi, speaking to the official Sudan news agency in Khartoum.
"The punishment for this is jail, a fine and lashes. It is up to the judge to determine the sentence," he said.
Khalid al-Mubarak, a spokesman for the Sudanese embassy in London, said today it was "unlikely" Gibbons would be convicted.
She had one of the best solicitors in Sudan - Tijani al-Karib - and could appeal if found guilty, he said.
Mubarak said naming the teddy bear Muhammad seemed to have been an "honest mistake".
He told BBC Breakfast News: "It should have been discussed at school level but there was a complaint from some irate parents who pressed the case and it went to the ministry of education."
Asked if he thought Gibbons would be able to return to Britain soon, he said: "This is my hope and my prayer."
A British embassy spokesman, Omar Daair, said the school had provided Gibbons's legal defence and translators.
The home secretary, Jacqui Smith, told GMTV: "We are pretty shocked and surprised about the way the Sudanese have behaved in these circumstances. That's why David Miliband, the foreign secretary, has urgently demanded to meet the Sudanese ambassador so we can make clear our views and hopefully get Mrs Gibbons freed as soon as possible."
Gibbons arrived in Sudan in August to take up a post at the exclusive Unity high school, which follows a British-style curriculum. In September, during a class on animals and their habitats, she asked her seven-year-old pupils to give a teddy bear a name. They chose Muhammad, the name of one of the boys in the class and a popular name in Sudan.
Last week the education ministry informed the school that a few Muslim parents had complained about the name, and police arrested Gibbons at her home in the school grounds.
Sudan's top clerics, known as the assembly of the Ulemas, said in a statement on Wednesday that parents had handed them a book the teacher was assembling about the bear. "She, in a very abusive manner, used the name of Prophet Muhammad, may Allah shame her," the statement said.
Unity's directors have shut the school to avoid protests like those that greeted the publication of notorious cartoons of the Muslim prophet in a Danish newspaper last year.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sudan/story/0,,2218871,00.html
A British primary school teacher appeared in a Sudanese court today after being charged with "insulting religion and inciting hatred" for allowing children in her class to name a teddy bear Muhammad.
Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, has been held by police in the Sudanese capital, Khartoum, since Sunday, accused of insulting the prophet Muhammad. If found guilty, she could be given 40 lashes, a fine or a six-month jail term.
The foreign secretary, David Miliband, who met the Sudanese ambassador, Omer Mohamed Ahmed, in London today to discuss Gibbons's case, said British diplomats would "do everything to avoid" such a sentence.
"There is an innocent misunderstanding at the heart of this, not a criminal offence," he said.
The Sudanese prosecutor general, Salah Eddin Abu Zaid, said Gibbons, whose case has drawn international condemnation, could expect a swift and fair trial.
"We don't think this will be a long trial, because there is only one article of the penal code to handle," Abu Zaid said.
He said he had met Gibbons yesterday and that the "the lady was fine". She had been provided with a team of lawyers and translators as well as a bed and mattress in her cell, he said.
A spokesman for the prime minister, Gordon Brown, said the government would consider that further steps might be necessary in the light of the meeting with the ambassador today.
He said: "We need to understand the rationale for why Mrs Gibbons has been charged and get a clearer understanding of what the circumstances are ... before we move to the next stage." Full consular assistance would continue to be made available, the spokesman said.
Despite her colleagues insisting Gibbons had made an innocent mistake, Sudan's deputy justice minister confirmed yesterday that the teacher had been charged. "The investigation has been completed and the Briton Gillian was charged under article 125 of the penal code," said Abdel Daim Zamrawi, speaking to the official Sudan news agency in Khartoum.
"The punishment for this is jail, a fine and lashes. It is up to the judge to determine the sentence," he said.
Khalid al-Mubarak, a spokesman for the Sudanese embassy in London, said today it was "unlikely" Gibbons would be convicted.
She had one of the best solicitors in Sudan - Tijani al-Karib - and could appeal if found guilty, he said.
Mubarak said naming the teddy bear Muhammad seemed to have been an "honest mistake".
He told BBC Breakfast News: "It should have been discussed at school level but there was a complaint from some irate parents who pressed the case and it went to the ministry of education."
Asked if he thought Gibbons would be able to return to Britain soon, he said: "This is my hope and my prayer."
A British embassy spokesman, Omar Daair, said the school had provided Gibbons's legal defence and translators.
The home secretary, Jacqui Smith, told GMTV: "We are pretty shocked and surprised about the way the Sudanese have behaved in these circumstances. That's why David Miliband, the foreign secretary, has urgently demanded to meet the Sudanese ambassador so we can make clear our views and hopefully get Mrs Gibbons freed as soon as possible."
Gibbons arrived in Sudan in August to take up a post at the exclusive Unity high school, which follows a British-style curriculum. In September, during a class on animals and their habitats, she asked her seven-year-old pupils to give a teddy bear a name. They chose Muhammad, the name of one of the boys in the class and a popular name in Sudan.
Last week the education ministry informed the school that a few Muslim parents had complained about the name, and police arrested Gibbons at her home in the school grounds.
Sudan's top clerics, known as the assembly of the Ulemas, said in a statement on Wednesday that parents had handed them a book the teacher was assembling about the bear. "She, in a very abusive manner, used the name of Prophet Muhammad, may Allah shame her," the statement said.
Unity's directors have shut the school to avoid protests like those that greeted the publication of notorious cartoons of the Muslim prophet in a Danish newspaper last year.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sudan/story/0,,2218871,00.html
yes it was quite a common practice back then but now days some people dont understand this
this story is gathering steam. heard it on the radio this morning over here in the US. not sure why it's news over here but .......
seems that they've shut the school down for fear of protests. that'll help the kids get a good education
seems that they've shut the school down for fear of protests. that'll help the kids get a good education
I'd say the offense against Islam is committed by those decision makers making a mockery of a patently innocent act - not the teacher. They bring shame to Islam.
yes it was quite a common practice back then but now days some people dont understand this
And in the days of Hitler hating and discriminating against Jews was quite a common practice...
I don't have a lot of sympathy for this kind of thinking myself.
And in the days of Hitler hating and discriminating against Jews was quite a common practice...
I don't have a lot of sympathy for this kind of thinking myself.
Mike, The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) married Aysha when she was approximately Nine years old in 621 CE. No doubt many anti Islamic sites will have you believe that this fact highlights his paedophile nature, however their marriage was not consummated until after she began menstruating. The marriage is said to have taken place in Makkah, but she did not start living with the Prophet until he migrated to Medina - some years after. I still know people who were married whilst quite young but did not consummate their marriage until they turned teenagers, so this custom was quite common until recently.
And in the days of Hitler hating and discriminating against Jews was quite a common practice...
I don't have a lot of sympathy for this kind of thinking myself.
That's twisted logic. What you mentioned is genocide.
At the time people considered puberty as the turning point for marriage not the age of 16. And this was common in various nations.
I do not think he was a paedophile ('an adult who is sexually attracted to children'), and have never claimed that.
However, at the age of nine a child does not have the ability to decide whether to get married. They do not know enough about the world to make a decision and obviously, because of their naivety and innocence, should not be allowed to commit to someone at such young an age. By any standards, marrying a nine year old is a form of child abuse.
your deluded most of the people use to marry that early...get your facts right and your hitler example shows that how twisted your mind is
Where did I say most people didn't used to marry at an early age? Just because lots of people do something, it does not make it right or acceptable. Lots of people used to keep slaves, that doesn't make it right, it makes them guilty of a form of abuse. Just as marrying a nine year old child makes you guilty of a form of child abuse, whether lots of other people do it or not.
The Hitler example was deliberately picked due to its extremity, in the hope that it would show you the error of your logic.
it was accepted then due to various legitimate reasons which i cant be arsed to type
The idea that the female must consent to the marriage is a rather recent historical phenomenon. Even today, in many cultures, there are arranged marriages, where the interests of family, caste, culture overrule any opinions held by the "mere" bride.
By the standards of today, marrying a 9 year old would be child abuse, but nothing is accomplished by an anachronistic view that all issues of morality for all times must be measured by todays societal norms. While we should learn not to duplicate what we consider to be abhorent behavior from the past, those who dwelt in that era are, for the most part, products of their time and place and cannot be expected to anticipate changes in attitude or awareness over the next millenium or so and alter their behavior accordingly.
Lets not hold such people up as someone to take a moral lead from then shall we. Lets condemn their specific actions so they are less likely to be repeated in the present and future, showing people that it is immoral and unacceptable behaviour.
I've just realised this teacher's from Liverpool, I say lash the bitch.......
but being scouse she will appeal and get her way
Mike, Islamically a marriage is considered as legal and successful, if three conditions hold good.
I Quote
The marriage should have the blessings of one/both parents.
State/Society should not take any offense and acknowledge the matrimony.
None of the spouses should live to repent or convey his/her displeasure at the decision of his/her parents/guardians to bind him/her in such an alliance, long after the marriage has taken place. The husband and wife should be happy of being married with each other, till they die.
None of the three and especially the last one, seem to have been defied or negated by the marriage of the prophet with Ayesha (ra). I wouldn't mind marrying off my daughter or sister, if all the three conditions get satisfied and she doesn't live on to repent this decision taken by me on her behalf.
I'd love to have the strength and character to follow even one percent of the teachings and examples of such great figures as Prophet Jesus, Moses and Muhammad (Peace be upon them)...
Although it is a benefit to have parental consent, the legality of a marriage should not depend on parental approval if the people marrying are consenting adults. To me this seems like a rule designed to give parents a veto on who their children should marry; in my opinion this cannot be a good thing simply because the parents are not the ones to say who their child should fall in love with and want to marry.
I don't know what this means in practice? How could the state or society ever take offence at any two CONSENTING ADULTS marrying?
To me it is obvious that parents should not have any legal right to bind their children into a marriage. The decision to get married is that of the individual person. It's a bit late when years later the person says they did not really want to get married and were forced into it by their parents, or were in fact too young to know what they were doing.
Can I suggest that the marrying of a nine year old to a much older man by her parents is totally deplorable, whether she later came to be happy with the situation or not.
How would you know in advance whether your daughter was going to live to regret YOUR decision to marry her off to someone?? Why not let her wait until she is an adult and can make the decision of who she wants to spend her life with herself!?
The irrationality of the atheist can primarily be seen in his actions - and it is here that the cowardice of his intellectual convictions is also exposed. Whereas Christians and the faithful of other religions have good reason for attempting to live by the Golden Rule - they are commanded to do so - the atheist does not. ... He usually seeks to live by them when they are convenient, and there are even those, who, despite their faithlessness, do a better job of living by the tenets of religion than those who actually subscribe to them. Still, even the most admirable of atheists is nothing more than a moral parasite, living his life based on borrowed ethics.
Vox Day
Vox Day
It does not, the children once they become adults have every right to veto the marriage. These marriages made the families become closer even before the boy and girl officially started living together after adulthood.
There are many reasons why a boy and girl should not wed - how you never been to a church where the priest asks the congregation if there are any objections in the couple being joined in matrimony.
Just as any marriage, they have the option of seperation.
Obviously all marriages carry an element of risk, but not this - her father knew well the character of the groom. If you knew the history or background behind the marriage or the girls families closeness with Muhammad (SAW) you would not have asked this question. The fathers decision was vindicated as they both had a great relationship.
They reckon that the actual Virgin Mary would have probably been no older then thirteen at the time of Jesus' birth.
Who they are, I'm unsure, but that's what I seem to recall it being said....
Who they are, I'm unsure, but that's what I seem to recall it being said....
The age of people and events were hit and miss in those times. They did not have a calendar by which to date their events, and on many occassions they dated them by some major event, changing the reference date when a new major event took place.
UK teacher jailed over teddy row
A British teacher has been found guilty in Sudan of insulting religion after she allowed her primary school class to name a teddy bear Muhammad.
Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, has been sentenced to 15 days in prison and will then be deported.
She escaped conviction for inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs, and will now appeal.
Foreign Secretary David Miliband has expressed "in the strongest terms" the UK's concern at her detention.
The Sudanese ambassador, Omer Siddiq, was called back to the Foreign Office to explain the decision.
Officials said that during his 45-minute meeting Mr Miliband also spoke to the Sudanese acting foreign minister for 15 minutes on the telephone.
"There will be further contacts overnight and tomorrow in the search for a swift resolution of this issue," the Foreign Office added.
Reaction to verdict
Before the meeting, Mr Miliband said he was "extremely disappointed" the charges had not been dismissed and repeated his view that it had been an "innocent misunderstanding by a dedicated teacher".
"Our priority now is to ensure Mrs Gibbons' welfare, and we will continue to provide consular assistance to her," he said.
"I have called in the Sudanese ambassador this evening to explain the decision and to discuss next steps."
Meanwhile, Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams said he could not "see any justification" for the sentence, calling it an "absurdly disproportionate response" to a "minor cultural faux pas".
Officials at the Foreign Office say the mood has changed as a result of the verdict.
Staff complaint
The prime minister, Sudanese embassy officials in London and UK Muslim organisations all expressed the hope that Mrs Gibbons would be released.
But Sudan's top clerics had called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam.
She could have faced up to 40 lashes if found guilty on all three charges against her.
In September, Mrs Gibbons allowed her class of primary school pupils to name the teddy bear Muhammad as part of a study of animals and their habitats.
The court heard that she was arrested on Sunday after another member of staff at Unity High School complained to the Ministry of Education.
The BBC's Adam Mynott, in Khartoum, said Mrs Gibbons apologised to the court for any offence she may have caused.
The school's director, Robert Boulos, told the AP news agency: "It's a very fair verdict, she could have had six months and lashes and a fine, and she only got 15 days and deportation."
He said Mrs Gibbons would only serve another 10 days in prison, having already spent five in custody since her arrest.
Prosecutor general Salah Eddin Abu Zaid had said Mrs Gibbons could expect a "swift and fair trial".
But Catherine Wolthuizen, chief executive of Fair Trials International, said Mrs Gibbons' treatment was excessive.
She said: "It was a very speedy justice process. Although she has been found guilty of all the counts of causing offence, she has thankfully not been subjected to 40 lashes.
"Having said this, 15 days in a Sudanese prison for an innocent misunderstanding is a serious and harsh punishment indeed."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7119399.stm
A British teacher has been found guilty in Sudan of insulting religion after she allowed her primary school class to name a teddy bear Muhammad.
Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, has been sentenced to 15 days in prison and will then be deported.
She escaped conviction for inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs, and will now appeal.
Foreign Secretary David Miliband has expressed "in the strongest terms" the UK's concern at her detention.
The Sudanese ambassador, Omer Siddiq, was called back to the Foreign Office to explain the decision.
Officials said that during his 45-minute meeting Mr Miliband also spoke to the Sudanese acting foreign minister for 15 minutes on the telephone.
"There will be further contacts overnight and tomorrow in the search for a swift resolution of this issue," the Foreign Office added.
Reaction to verdict
Before the meeting, Mr Miliband said he was "extremely disappointed" the charges had not been dismissed and repeated his view that it had been an "innocent misunderstanding by a dedicated teacher".
"Our priority now is to ensure Mrs Gibbons' welfare, and we will continue to provide consular assistance to her," he said.
"I have called in the Sudanese ambassador this evening to explain the decision and to discuss next steps."
Meanwhile, Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams said he could not "see any justification" for the sentence, calling it an "absurdly disproportionate response" to a "minor cultural faux pas".
Officials at the Foreign Office say the mood has changed as a result of the verdict.
Staff complaint
The prime minister, Sudanese embassy officials in London and UK Muslim organisations all expressed the hope that Mrs Gibbons would be released.
But Sudan's top clerics had called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam.
She could have faced up to 40 lashes if found guilty on all three charges against her.
In September, Mrs Gibbons allowed her class of primary school pupils to name the teddy bear Muhammad as part of a study of animals and their habitats.
The court heard that she was arrested on Sunday after another member of staff at Unity High School complained to the Ministry of Education.
The BBC's Adam Mynott, in Khartoum, said Mrs Gibbons apologised to the court for any offence she may have caused.
The school's director, Robert Boulos, told the AP news agency: "It's a very fair verdict, she could have had six months and lashes and a fine, and she only got 15 days and deportation."
He said Mrs Gibbons would only serve another 10 days in prison, having already spent five in custody since her arrest.
Prosecutor general Salah Eddin Abu Zaid had said Mrs Gibbons could expect a "swift and fair trial".
But Catherine Wolthuizen, chief executive of Fair Trials International, said Mrs Gibbons' treatment was excessive.
She said: "It was a very speedy justice process. Although she has been found guilty of all the counts of causing offence, she has thankfully not been subjected to 40 lashes.
"Having said this, 15 days in a Sudanese prison for an innocent misunderstanding is a serious and harsh punishment indeed."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7119399.stm
Reminds me of the Life Of Brian sketch where the old guy is being threatened with crusifiction and he responds "Could be worse"".
My missus had never seen Life of Brian then once we were at someone's house and it was on Foxtel Classics and we caught the bit where Eric Idle says he's getting freedom instead fo crucifiction then says 'I'm only pulling your leg'. She couldn't stop laughing all night.
I wish I could watch it for the first time again.
"First line on the left. One cross each."
Spot on.
By that I assume you mean utter spastic.