LEGEND: What defines a Manchester United Legend?

[sammsky1]

What defines a Manchester United Legend?​

I’m currently reading ‘Manchester United – The Biography’ by Jim White. For those who don’t know anything about Untied pre SAF, it’s a great read and helps put into context all the major phases of our clubs history and evolution.

I now understand what older fans mean about Busby when they say that he a took a provincial club, probably no stronger than today’s Sunderland or Newcastle and turned them into the best club in the world. Along the way, he instilled certain values like being a family and backing youth that still resonate and flourish in our culture today.

Likewise, I never knew too much about the post Busby - pre Atkinson phase either and the way the club nose dived after 1968. For me, this makes SAF’s achievements post 1999 even more amazing.

One of the recurring themes of this book is 'what defines a Manchester United legend'? We have not had a proper debate on this for a while so I wanted to get one started over the holiday season. My definition of a United Legend has several key attributes:

1. He must have tenure at the club
2. He must have played in a significant amount of games
3. He must have made a major contribution to United winning honors
4. His contributions should be for United and NOT what he has achieved at other clubs or within his international career
5. He must be loved by the fans
6. There cannot be any debate that he is a legend

Please do comment on any additional attributes you think exist.

I’ve split my list into 2: Pre SAF and post SAF.

Likewise please give your opinions on the players I have proposed and any that you think are missing with reasons why.


Pre SAF

Billy Meredith
Dennis Violett
Alex Stepney
Duncan Edwards
Pat Crerand
Johnny Morris
Bobby Charlton
George Best
Dennis Law
Steve Coppell
Arthur Albiston
Gary Bailey

Post SAF:

Bryan Robson
Eric Cantona
Mark Hughes
Dennis Irwin
Steve Bruce
Gary Pallister
Peter Schmeichel
Ruud van Nistelrooy
Ole Gunnar Soslkjaer
Ryan Giggs
Roy Keane
Gary Neville
Paul Scholes

Candidates from current squad:

Rio Ferdinand
Cristiano Ronaldo
Wayne Rooney
Carlos Tevez

 

[holyland red]

You left David Beckham, Kevin Moran and Stuart Pearson (and probably more names will follow) out of your lists.

As the stories surrounding Ruud's departure were made public I suppose his place among the legends is questionable now.

 

[TR]

As the stories surrounding Ruud's departure were made public I suppose his place among the legends is questionable now.

Legends can't be controversial or have negatives..?

 

[sammsky1]

You left David Beckham, Kevin Moran and Stuart Pearson (and probably more names will follow) out of your lists.

As the stories surrounding Ruud's departure were made public I suppose his place among the legends is questionable now.

Pearson & Moran perhaps. and I'm looking forward to the debate on Ruud.

I have deliberatly left out Beckham and imagine that will be one of the most contenscious and cause alot of debate. My views on GoldenBalls are as follows:

1. Towards the end of his United career, we were a lowly third or forth in his list of priorities after his family, his brand and his England career. His family I can live with of course but none of the others. His game suffered as a result.

2. the fame he has acquired post 2003 does not have any input into his status as a United legend.

3. His best season for us was 1999 and he was amazing in the 1st half, silencing all the world cup boo boys. But our success in 1999 was also for so many other reasons, be it the heriocs of Stam or the dynamism of Yorke and Cole. And he did not 'play a blinder' in any of the lasy 3 matches that secured us the treble. And so he cant be credited for that success.

4. His fall out with SAF was spectacular and I will never forgive him for his 'me or SAF' charade and the alice band. Ultimatley, for him to be a legend for me, he should have made compromises within his lifestyle for the club. But he chose not to and that forced a parting of ways. He put personal glory above the club and for me, that is not United Legend behaviour which is exemplified within all the players I have listed.

5. People like Law, Meridith and Crerand never even dared ask the club for a pay raise, despite being underpaid and achieveing considerable success because they respected what the club stood for. I'm not saying the club was right to have those policies, but they made huge sacrifices to play for Manchester United. David Beckham did not make any. Indeed he wanted it all his way.

For all those reasons and a few more, I'd put Beckham into the bracket of 'great players' to have played for us: similar to Andy Cole, Paul Parker, Frank Stapleton, Jimmy Greenhoff, Ray Wilkins, Nicky Butt, Paul Ince, etc, but he fails to get into th top bracket.

He has been a legend to English football and possibly to world football for his entire contribution throughout his career, but does not get quite into the top bracket at Manchester United for me.

 

[sphinx]

What about David Beckham?

He does seem to have several of the key attributes minus one or two, so why isn't he in the list?

For some parts of the world, like in Asia for example, Beckham is bigger than the club or even football itself and worshipped religiously. I do realize that this is more towards 'personal thing' but in a way, he does bring global recognition to the club, or perhaps, popularity. It maybe absurd to suggest that he is the 'cash cow' for the club but it does seem like that back then, seeing how crazy popular he was...
Anyway, I was just wondering why he didn't get the 'legend' tag despite having some of the key attributes listed above...

 

[Merman]

Only Keano, Cantona, Robson and Giggs are nailed on legends in the Fergie Era.

 

[sammsky1]

Only Keano, Cantona, Robson and Giggs are nailed on legends in the Fergie Era.

care to expand please Dipper? I had a similar list when I went through this the first time and still think your list is valid..

Why do you think the others I've listed do not qualify?

 

[VP]

Only Keano, Cantona, Robson and Giggs are nailed on legends in the Fergie Era.

Agreed.

The most important criterion to be a United legend is that you have to be exceptionally good at football, one of the world's best players. After that the other criteria becomes important like connection with the fans, etc.

Players like Gary Neville, Ole, Beckham, Ruud don't satisfy this. These players would come in the level below legends.

 

[Merman]

care to expand please Dipper? I had a similar list when I went through this the first time and still think your list is valid..

Why do you think the others I've listed do not qualify?

Well, most fans would accept that the four players I mentioned are legends. The likes of Neville, Scholes, Irwin were great players for us, but some would accept them as legends and some would not. IMO, a player can be labelled a legend only when most people think he is a legend. I'd probably add Schmikes to the first list. Spoonez compiled a great list of legends in another thread, I'd probably did it out.

 

[CircusMonkey]

The term "Legend" is used too easily now days. Beckham could have been and should have been, but is not.
if Ronaldo stays he could become a "United Legend" he even has the ability to become a football Legend.

Post SAF: for me its Keane and Giggs. i could mention many others but it would take away from what Giggs and Keane have given to United.

For the future: Rio Ferdinand.

folk hero: Ole Gunnar Soslkjaer. Maybe will never be put in the same light as Best Charlton Law, but Ole was truley the peoples champion.

Special mention:Paul Mcgrath, could have been the greatest defender ever, but for crap knees and the ability to drink 20 pints a night.

 

[sammsky1]

Agreed.

The most important criterion to be a United legend is that you have to be exceptionally good at football, one of the world's best players. After that the other criteria becomes important like connection with the fans, etc.

Players like Gary Neville, Ole, Beckham, Ruud don't satisfy this. These players would come in the level below legends.

According to that criteria, then surely Peter Schmeichel also quailifies? He was without doubt the very best in his position and also redefined what a goalkeeper was; from being a defensive aspect of the team to being an offensive weapon too. His goalkeeping skills were 2nd to none but its the distribution of the ball that what set him apart. Some of his kicks and throw outs were as majestic as any any Paul Scoles pass.

I think we fans loved him too.

 

[duffer]

Legends can't be controversial or have negatives..?

I guess that leaves out Best and Keane and then.

 

[sammsky1]

Well, most fans would accept that the four players I mentioned are legends. The likes of Neville, Scholes, Irwin were great players for us, but some would accept them as legends and some would not. IMO, a player can be labelled a legend only when most people think he is a legend. I'd probably add Schmikes to the first list. Spoonez compiled a great list of legends in another thread, I'd probably did it out.

I agree on both these points. that was my last criteria - that basically there should be no debate, no doubt that a player was legendary for us. Just like the fact that though most of us never saw them play, Edwards are the 1960's holy Trinity is never debated as being legendary contributers to our myth and story.

 

[Merman]

The term "Legend" is used too easily now days. Beckham could have been and should have been, but is not.
if Ronaldo stays he could become a "United Legend" he even has the ability to become a football Legend.

Post SAF: for me its Keane and Giggs. i could mention many others but it would take away from what Giggs and Keane have given to United.

For the future: Rio Ferdinand.

folk hero: Ole Gunnar Soslkjaer. Maybe will never be put in the same light as Best Charlton Law, but Ole was truley the peoples champion.

Special mention:Paul Mcgrath, could have been the greatest defender ever, but for crap knees and the ability to drink 20 pints a night.

Cantona?

 

[Tumbling-Dice]

The term "Legend" is used too easily now days. Beckham could have been and should have been, but is not.
if Ronaldo stays he could become a "United Legend" he even has the ability to become a football Legend.

Post SAF: for me its Keane and Giggs. i could mention many others but it would take away from what Giggs and Keane have given to United.

For the future: Rio Ferdinand.

folk hero: Ole Gunnar Soslkjaer. Maybe will never be put in the same light as Best Charlton Law, but Ole was truley the peoples champion.

Special mention:Paul Mcgrath, could have been the greatest defender ever, but for crap knees and the ability to drink 20 pints a night.

Paul Scholes ?

 

[VP]

According to that criteria, then surely Peter Schmeichel also quailifies? He was without doubt the very best in his position and also redefined what a goalkeeper was; from being a defensive aspect of the team to being an offensive weapon too. His goalkeeping skills were 2nd to none but its the distribution of the ball that what set him apart. Some of his kicks and throw outs were as majestic as any any Paul Scoles pass.

I think we fans loved him too.

Yep. I'd say Schmeichel is definitely a legend.

 

[sammsky1]

Cantona?

for me a legend amongst legends. Only Bobby Charlton surpasses him.

Oh my how wonderful those 4 1/2 years were. Amazing the impact he had (still has) in such a short period.

 

[vijay]

care to expand please Dipper? I had a similar list when I went through this the first time and still think your list is valid..

Why do you think the others I've listed do not qualify?

It takes something else apart from being a great footballer to fall in to the bracket.

Legends, only Schmeichel, Keane, Cantona, Robbo and Moran fall in the barrier, may be Ole for the reason he was a **** figure, one player who epotimizes the measure of success under Fergie was all about.

Giggs and especially Scholes inspite being a better footballer than all those legendary names, falls short of the mark but can be regarded as Legends more to their longevity than any anything else.

Of the current only Ronaldo can cut it through, may be in future if he pledges his future with us, he has all the arrogance and cuntishness apart from being a great footballer whilst Rooney and co can end up there on their longevity with the club like Giggs.

Even in the post munich-Busby-PreSAF era not more than five or six players can have the legendary status.

 

[sammsky1]

Beckham could have been and should have been, but is not.

very well put. It is the most frustrating case in this debate. And I so wanted him to become the player that defined us. Alas, was not to be.

I still have a love/hate opinion about him. Being a London Red, he epitomized exactly what we down south felt for United. He validated our support and was a wonderful wonderful player. But he let other things get in the way of his football.

Great quote from Jack Charlton the other day when he gave Sir Bobby Charlton the BBC award for a lifetime’s contribution to sport 'Bobby never let anything get in the way of his football'. Beckham did and in doing so tarnished his United legacy in a way that is is irreparable (unless he becomes our manager in the future and wins us the Champions League!)

 

[vijay]

Legends can't be controversial or have negatives..?

Its usually the other way around.

Controversies gives rise to a **** following which inturn turns them as legends.

 

[MUFCgal]

Ruud van Nistelrooy

Me personally, I'd take Ruud off that list and put David Beckham in his place. A guy who was with United from he was 14 years old and contributed hugely to our success in the 90's, with 14 winners medals. There's some debate as to whether Becks is a United legend but for me it's not even questionable, he's a United legend in my eyes and always will be

 

[sammsky1]

Me personally, I'd take Ruud off that list and put David Beckham in his place. A guy who was with United from he was 14 years old and contributed hugely to our success in the 90's, with 14 winners medals. There's some debate as to whether Becks is a United legend but for me it's not even questionable, he's a United legend in my eyes and always will be

Thats only because he is a handsome chap, that you fancy him and wanted to get into his pants

 

[MUFCgal]

Thats only because he is a handsome chap, that you fancy him and wanted to get into his pants

Yes, you're right....I only like United because of handsome players like Giggs, Becks, Ronaldo

 

[sammsky1]

Yes, you're right....I only like United because of handsome players like Giggs, Becks, Ronaldo

Being a 'MUFCgal', who do you think is the hottest/sexist ever player we have had?

 

[vijay]

Pre SAF

Billy Meredith
Dennis Violett
Alex Stepney
Duncan Edwards
Pat Crerand
Johnny Morris
Bobby Charlton
George Best
Dennis Law
Steve Coppell
Arthur Albiston
Gary Bailey

Post SAF:

Bryan Robson
Eric Cantona
Mark Hughes
Dennis Irwin
Steve Bruce
Gary Pallister
Peter Schmeichel
Ruud van Nistelrooy
Ole Gunnar Soslkjaer
Ryan Giggs
Roy Keane
Gary Neville
Paul Scholes

Candidates from current squad:

Rio Ferdinand
Michael Carrick
Cristiano Ronaldo
Wayne Rooney
Carlos Tevez
Anderson

Only a selected few in my opinion, would add Moran to the list.

 

[Merman]

very well put. It is the most frustrating case in this debate. And I so wanted him to become the player that defined us. Alas, was not to be.

I still have a love/hate opinion about him. Being a London Red, he epitomized exactly what we down south felt for United. He validated our support and was a wonderful wonderful player. But her let other things get in the way of his football.

Great quote from Jack Charlton the other day when he gave Sir Bobby Charlton the BBC award for a lifetime’s contribution to sport 'Bobby never let anything get in the way of his football'. Beckham did and in doing so tarnished his United legacy in a way that is is irreparable (unless he becomes our manager in the future and wins us the Champions League!)

I'm not really sure about Ronaldo. Somebody mentioned in another thread that although Ronaldo has the cuntishness, he doesn't have enough Charisma to get away with it, unlike other arrogant players who are legends. I have to agree with that. His flirting with Madrid doesn't help either. He's going down the becks route imo, although he's hundred times the player. He will be remembered for his excellent seasons, but probably won't be a legend.

 

[sammsky1]

Pre SAF

Billy Meredith
Dennis Violett
Alex Stepney
Duncan Edwards
Pat Crerand
Johnny Morris
Bobby Charlton
George Best
Dennis Law
Steve Coppell
Arthur Albiston
Gary Bailey

Post SAF:

Bryan Robson
Eric Cantona
Mark Hughes
Dennis Irwin
Steve Bruce
Gary Pallister
Peter Schmeichel
Ruud van Nistelrooy
Ole Gunnar Soslkjaer
Ryan Giggs
Roy Keane
Gary Neville
Paul Scholes

Candidates from current squad:

Rio Ferdinand
Michael Carrick
Cristiano Ronaldo
Wayne Rooney
Carlos Tevez
Anderson

Only a selected few in my opinion, would add Moran to the list.

How can Mark Hughes not be in the list when even the dressing room that he played with fondly referred to him as "Triple Ledge(nd)'?! Just a thought.

 

[Merman]

Pre SAF

Billy Meredith
Dennis Violett
Alex Stepney
Duncan Edwards
Pat Crerand
Johnny Morris
Bobby Charlton
George Best
Dennis Law
Steve Coppell
Arthur Albiston
Gary Bailey

Post SAF:

Bryan Robson
Eric Cantona
Mark Hughes
Dennis Irwin
Steve Bruce
Gary Pallister
Peter Schmeichel
Ruud van Nistelrooy
Ole Gunnar Soslkjaer
Ryan Giggs
Roy Keane
Gary Neville
Paul Scholes

Candidates from current squad:

Rio Ferdinand
Michael Carrick
Cristiano Ronaldo
Wayne Rooney
Carlos Tevez
Anderson

Only a selected few in my opinion, would add Moran to the list.

There was a similar thread not long ago and Martin Buchan crawled into many people's list.

 

[vijay]

How can Mark Hughes not be in the list when even the dressing room that he played with fondly referred to him as "Triple Ledge(nd)'?! Just a thought.

Even Scholes misses out in the list. Legends have an aura about them, not that it was missing in Sparky , may be he got overshadowed by bigger cnuts in the same dressing room, just my opinion.

 

[busbysaces]

I'm surprised at people leaving Scholes out of legendary status.

Especially those who include Giggs but not Scholes. Giggs' early days were far more affective than Scholes' but since Scholes matured as a player he's been an absolute legend in his both play and attitude. I have never heard a united fan say the dont like scholes.

Both Legends in my book.

 

[Sultan]

Fantastic thread bro!

 

[The Law of Denis]

I've been thinking lately though, would Rio be classified as a Legend ? He lifted the trophy with Giggsy in Moscow and has been arguably our most important player the past few seasons. He seems to have matured immensely but I'm not sure a lot of people will forgive him for his past. I would put him a pier below Legends IMO, especially if Stam is there.

 

[topper]

What defines a Manchester United Legend?​

​

Pre SAF

Billy Meredith
Dennis Violett
Alex Stepney
Duncan Edwards
Pat Crerand
Johnny Morris
Bobby Charlton
George Best
Dennis Law
Steve Coppell
Arthur Albiston
Gary Bailey

Legend - why ???

also wouldn´t rate Stepney or Coppell or Albiston as legends

Now if you´d put in

Harry Gregg or Ray Wood that would be more like it

add to that list

all the other Babes that died at Munich
Nobby Stiles

 

[topper]

What defines a Manchester United Legend?​

​

Post SAF:

Bryan Robson
Eric Cantona
Mark Hughes
Dennis Irwin
Steve Bruce
Gary Pallister
Peter Schmeichel
Ruud van Nistelrooy
Ole Gunnar Soslkjaer
Ryan Giggs
Roy Keane
Gary Neville
Paul Scholes

Candidates from current squad:

Rio Ferdinand
Cristiano Ronaldo
Wayne Rooney
Carlos Tevez

nobody from the above current squad yet imo

 

[topper]

Pearson & Moran perhaps. and I'm looking forward to the debate on Ruud.

I have deliberatly left out Beckham and imagine that will be one of the most contenscious and cause alot of debate. My views on GoldenBalls are as follows:

1. Towards the end of his United career, we were a lowly third or forth in his list of priorities after his family, his brand and his England career. His family I can live with of course but none of the others. His game suffered as a result.

2. the fame he has acquired post 2003 does not have any input into his status as a United legend.

3. His best season for us was 1999 and he was amazing in the 1st half, silencing all the world cup boo boys. But our success in 1999 was also for so many other reasons, be it the heriocs of Stam or the dynamism of Yorke and Cole. And he did not 'play a blinder' in any of the lasy 3 matches that secured us the treble. And so he cant be credited for that success.

4. His fall out with SAF was spectacular and I will never forgive him for his 'me or SAF' charade and the alice band. Ultimatley, for him to be a legend for me, he should have made compromises within his lifestyle for the club. But he chose not to and that forced a parting of ways. He put personal glory above the club and for me, that is not United Legend behaviour which is exemplified within all the players I have listed.

5. People like Law, Meridith and Crerand never even dared ask the club for a pay raise, despite being underpaid and achieveing considerable success because they respected what the club stood for. I'm not saying the club was right to have those policies, but they made huge sacrifices to play for Manchester United. David Beckham did not make any. Indeed he wanted it all his way.

For all those reasons and a few more, I'd put Beckham into the bracket of 'great players' to have played for us: similar to Andy Cole, Paul Parker, Frank Stapleton, Jimmy Greenhoff, Ray Wilkins, Nicky Butt, Paul Ince, etc, but he fails to get into th top bracket.

He has been a legend to English football and possibly to world football for his entire contribution throughout his career, but does not get quite into the top bracket at Manchester United for me.

For fact purposes Law was put on the transfer list By Busby for wanting more cash for his next contract.

 

[Xander45]

Pre SAF: No question the Busby babes and the Holy Trinity.

With SAF:
Robson
Schmeichel
Cantona
Giggs
Keane

Players who will always be well received and always remembered but not quite legendary:
Solksjaer
Cole
Irwin
Neville
Scholes
Beckham
Ruud
Bruce

This is in my opinion.

 

[Chris H]

The most important criterion to be a United legend is that you have to be exceptionally good at football, one of the world's best players. After that the other criteria becomes important like connection with the fans, etc.

By that standard, most clubs wouldn't have any "legends". How a player compared to others at his position during his career means less to me than the service a player gave his club, and the connection the supporters had with the player. That's the standard at every other club, and I don't see why it should be any different at ours. What matters is what he gave to the team not how good he was, in the lists we compile in our heads, compared to others at his position.

As for your original list Sammsky1, I'm not sure about Ruud. You mention tenure at the club as an important criteria, and he was only here five years, the fifth of which he was by all accounts a very unhappy camper. And the manner in which he left does not endear him to many supporters. Plus if he plays two more seasons for Real, he'll have been there as long as he was here. Is it possible to be alegend at two fdifferent clubs? I'd say most like not, and especially not if one of them is Real. But of course this is all hypopthetical at the moment. And as for your current candidates for future legend-dom, Tevez has been here an awfully short time to start thinking about that word, even if he had been the one to score 42 times last season.

 

[The Law of Denis]

I dont understand why people dont rate Ole as a legend, he was an absolute sensation and provided some of the greatest memories during the SAF era. His bond with the fans is Cantona level and he had the ability and commitment to back it up...

 

[Chris H]

Yes, you're right....I only like United because of handsome players like Giggs, Becks, Ronaldo

I can't believe you left Rooney, Vidic and Tevez off that list.

I so wanted him to become the player that defined us......But her let other things get in the way of his football.

Typo, or accurate (though grammatically flawed) assessment of Beckham's marriage? Bravo if it's the latter, very subtly put.

 

[busbysaces]

I dont understand why people dont rate Ole as a legend, he was an absolute sensation and provided some of the greatest memories during the SAF era. His bond with the fans is Cantona level and he had the ability and commitment to back it up...

Thats a good point.

When you think about Ole's affiliation with the fans its mind blowing what he's achieved.

2Olegend tells its oen story i guess.