"Squad rotation"

[Pogue Mahone]

Remember when this used to be a dirty word(s?)

A few years back, when United were re-building, I remember getting beaten by Norwich with a team that had a number of un-forced changes from the previous league game and I was baffled as to why SAF couldn't see the importance of continuity. I wasn't a member but I'm sure this place was full of caftards moaning about the need for a settled XI.

Similarly, squad rotation was the stick used to bear Benitez in his initial years in the PL, ditto Ranieri at Chelsea.

Now look what's happened. I don't think there's two United fans out there who could agree on our best starting XI. Every league game brings a different line-up and it's almost impossible to predict which team SAF will pick for any given game. Squad rotation is here to stay.

Obviously, not many clubs have the strength in depth to rotate as effectively as we do but I think SAF deserves credit for predicting a future where we would be challenging for so many different trophies and it would be impossible to continue with the tradition of a "first XI", backed up by "squad players". I think the fact we've been rotating for these last few years has created a squad of players that accepts they won't start every game and realises this is for the good of the team. I think this is our biggest strength right now, our ability to shake things up and still field a team of motivated, hungry professionals who realise that they may not play again for a few games but who don't feel the need to go out there and try to prove a point.

Not sure exactly what kind of discussion I'm trying to kick off here (other than to give more praise to the God-like genius of SAF) but I guess I'm just curious if anyone else gone through the same transition that I have - from finding squad rotation pointless and irritating to realising that it is a crucial part of running a modern football club?

 

[I_live_cement]

Squad rotation has been going on for years amongst the succesful clubs in Europe. It's not like Sir Alex is the only one to utilise it successfully.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Squad rotation has been going on for years amongst the succesful clubs in Europe. It's not like Sir Alex is the only one to utilise it successfully.

The first in England though, surely?

 

[sammsky1]

I've been having similar thoughts myself about this.

But lets not forget that SAF pioneered the concept of squad rotation years ago (maybe as far back as 1996 if memory serves me right?).

In years gone by, we did not have the players who could excel in the league and in Europe in the same season. And so during the 90's, while we stormed the PL, we struggled like novices in Europe and were naive in our tactics. Post 99, SAF realised that he needed to cultivate 2 different styles of play. The Veron transfer was the beginning of that thinking. And I think its pretty much moved on from there.

I wrote in another thread that I though the transfers in 2004/5/6 were very telling. Because of the huge money thrown about by the Chavs, we kept missing our 'big ticket signings' like Essien, Robben & Ballack. But SAF knew that he even if he missed those players, he still needed to feed the squad. The signings of Park, Evra, Vidic, Carrick and continued faith in players like Fletcher show that SAF had the long term plan in mind. Sooner or later, we would get the match winners we needed and so we neatly end of where we are today.

Like you say, SAF deserves much credit for predicting that if we were to fight on numerous fronts, we would require a interchangeable team capable of maintaining its form no matter what team was picked. And its astonishing he has achieved this.

In hindsight, its obvious that every match will present different challenges and so the best way to be prepared is to have bespoke solutions. But that is not what football has traditionally believed (keep the same 11) and so that is yet another innovation SAF introduced into the world of top flight English football.

 

[I_live_cement]

The first in England though, surely?

I suppose so, but didn't Liverpool have a big squad capable of rotation when they were winning everything in the 70s and 80s though? Or am I just making that up, given the fact I wasn't alive at the time.

 

[sammsky1]

I suppose so, but didn't Liverpool have a big squad capable of rotation when they were winning everything in the 70s and 80s though? Or am I just making that up, given the fact I wasn't alive at the time.

you are making that up. In those days, there was just 1 sub!

Nope, SAF introduced this concept of squad rotation.

 

[I_live_cement]

you are making that up. In those days, there was just 1 sub!

Nope, SAF introduced this concept of squad rotation.

Really? That's ridiculous.

So what if you had 2 injuries in a game?

 

[sammsky1]

Really? That's ridiculous.

So what if you had 2 injuries in a game?

you played with 10 men!

 

[The Wizard]

I suppose so, but didn't Liverpool have a big squad capable of rotation when they were winning everything in the 70s and 80s though? Or am I just making that up, given the fact I wasn't alive at the time.

Can't remember the year, was late '70's or early '80's but the dippers went through the season won the league, and used only 14 players all season, apparently. Maybe one of the older lads on here will remember the year.

Goes to show you how times have changes as regards squad rotation.

 

[Anderson Searl]

The most hilarious conversation is trying to decide who is the best at each position, and it pays great respect to Fergie and this side and how any player in every match can fill in and do the job.

 

[Devil_forever]

Remember when this used to be a dirty word(s?)

A few years back, when United were re-building, I remember getting beaten by Norwich with a team that had a number of un-forced changes from the previous league game and I was baffled as to why SAF couldn't see the importance of continuity. I wasn't a member but I'm sure this place was full of caftards moaning about the need for a settled XI.

Similarly, squad rotation was the stick used to bear Benitez in his initial years in the PL, ditto Ranieri at Chelsea.

Now look what's happened. I don't think there's two United fans out there who could agree on our best starting XI. Every league game brings a different line-up and it's almost impossible to predict which team SAF will pick for any given game. Squad rotation is here to stay.

Obviously, not many clubs have the strength in depth to rotate as effectively as we do but I think SAF deserves credit for predicting a future where we would be challenging for so many different trophies and it would be impossible to continue with the tradition of a "first XI", backed up by "squad players". I think the fact we've been rotating for these last few years has created a squad of players that accepts they won't start every game and realises this is for the good of the team. I think this is our biggest strength right now, our ability to shake things up and still field a team of motivated, hungry professionals who realise that they may not play again for a few games but who don't feel the need to go out there and try to prove a point.

Not sure exactly what kind of discussion I'm trying to kick off here (other than to give more praise to the God-like genius of SAF) but I guess I'm just curious if anyone else gone through the same transition that I have - from finding squad rotation pointless and irritating to realising that it is a crucial part of running a modern football club?

The reason we started rotating was because we finally have a squad to do so with. Chelsea also kind of forced our hands on this as they were able to rotate and still challenge on multiple fronts. Mind you SAF gets it right with his rotation and we are indeed lucky to have a squad of players who accept rotation.

 

[I_live_cement]

Can't remember the year, was late '70's or early '80's but the dippers went through the season won the league, and used only 14 players all season, apparently. Maybe one of the older lads on here will remember the year.

Goes to show you how times have changes as regards squad rotation.

Guess I couldn't have been more wrong then. Shows things have definitely changed for the better.

 

[JCurr]

--------------VDS-------------
Rafael----Rio---Vidic-----Evra
------Carrick---Scholes-------
Hargo------------------Ronaldo
---------Giggsy-----------------
--------------Rooney------------

 

[Pogue Mahone]

--------------VDS-------------
Rafael----Rio---Vidic-----Evra
------Carrick---Scholes-------
Hargo------------------Ronaldo
---------Giggsy-----------------
--------------Rooney------------

Eh?

If that's an attempt to prove we have a definitive "best XI" it's a poor one. You do realize we've NEVER lined up like that?

And that's without getting into the whole "Hargo" thing.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Pogue we been rotating the squad often since the days of Ole, Teddy, Yorke and Cole and when the class of 92 came through as first teamers, although not to the same extent as today. For instance, our squad was big the summer after Euro 96(not as good or as big as now mind you). Never been a big problem for me when we have good players coming into the side. In fact, I've always been in favour of some rotation to give young players a chance and keep the likes of Ole, Butt, and at different times Sharpe and Kanchelskis happy.

 

[JCurr]

Eh?

If that's an attempt to prove we have a definitive "best XI" it's a poor one.

And that's without getting into the whole "Hargo" thing.

Without exception against any top side in Europe, that's the XI I'd go with. And to argue is pretty tough fitness not considered. However, I don't disagree with your original post. I was playing devil's advocate to a certain degree. But the reason I lean that way is the fact that if Scholes and Giggs weren't so advanced in age, there'd be no consideration for the Fletchers, Andersons or Parks of the squad. And Rio's injury has made way for Evans to play more than most would've predicted. So yes, a deep squad. No doubt. Fantastic. I've enjoyed watching this season as much as any other or more in my time. But there are other factors here.

 

[pillory]

Can't remember the year, was late '70's or early '80's but the dippers went through the season won the league, and used only 14 players all season, apparently. Maybe one of the older lads on here will remember the year.

I watched all the Match of the 70s and 80s recently, and I think it was mentioned that 71/72 champions Derby used something like 14 or 15 players. Can't remember anything about Liverpool.

Wait, Google says Liverpool won it in 65/66 with 14 players. And that Villa did the same in 80/81.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Pogue we been rotating the squad often since the days of Ole, Teddy, Yorke and Cole and when the class of 92 came through, although not to the same extent as today. Never been a big problem for me when we have good players coming into the side. In fact, I've always been in favour of some rotation to give young players a chance and keep the likes of Ole, Butt, and at different times Sharpe and Kanchelskis happy.

Yeah, that's a fair point but "rotation" back then involved resting one or two of our best players with a squad player who could 'do a job' or to blood one of the kids. There was never any real doubt about team selection for the really big games.

I can't ever remember a scenario where our best XI was so unclear and when SAF chopped and changed so freely and so effectively.

 

[JCurr]

There weren't the exotic formations being put into use either back then though for the most part. Pretty straight forward football.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Yeah, that's a fair point but "rotation" back then involved resting one or two of our best players with a squad player who could 'do a job' or to blood one of the kids. There was never any real doubt about team selection for the really big games.

I can't ever remember a scenario where our best XI was so unclear and when SAF chopped and changed so freely and so effectively.

The starting eleven for big games would not have been in doubt then most of the time and is nowhere near like it is now. I still long become used to frequent rotation though. Remember the summer we signed Ronnie J, Ole, Poborsky and Cruyff and also Becks, Scholes, Butt, and the Nevs were youngsters and Cole was not completely established.

We often had a different side for the league and the group CL games and SAF would often pull out different tactics which no one would have guessed in Europe. The 4-0 over Porto is still a night I remember. If I remember rightly Ole, Cole and Eric all started upfront and Ronnie J was used in centre midfield for the first time with Becks and Giggs all central. No one would have predicted that side and we spanked them 4-0 with Giggs having an exceptional game in the centre.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

There weren't the exotic formations being put into use either back then though for the most part. Pretty straight forward football.

We changed formation alot in the CL early years. Can remember Eric being used as a lone striker in a two nil away at Fenerbache with Cruyff and either Giggs or Poborsky alongside him in a 4-3-3, the example of tinkering with the formation against Porto without Keano I gave above and a host of other examples from that season. It calmed down when the treble side got together, back to 4-4-2 for the most part but Fergie has been tinkering with team selections and formations in Europe since we got tonked 4-0 in Barca.

 

[Anderson Searl]

--------------VDS-------------
Rafael----Rio---Vidic-----Evra
------Carrick---Scholes-------
Hargo------------------Ronaldo
---------Giggsy-----------------
--------------Rooney------------

In terms of skill set and form that's a pretty good shout except Hargo... i know fitness probably isn't in the forefront of this XI, but the Likes of Nani and Park should slot in there as opposed to a guy who is an everywhere player.

Can't argue with the other choices though.

 

[JCurr]

We changed formation alot in the CL early years. Can remember Eric being used as a lone striker in a two nil away at Fenerbache with Cruyff and either Giggs or Poborsky alongside him in a 4-3-3, the example of tinkering with the formation against Porto without Keano I gave below and a host of other examples from that season. It calmed down when the treble side got together, back to 4-4-2 for the most part but Fergie has been tinkering with team selections and formations in Europe since we got tonked 4-0 in Barca.

Cheers. Nice to hear. I was a young lad then. I was talking more of the general trend of European football though. Was Fergie really such a trendsetter tactically?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The starting eleven for big games would not have been in doubt then most of the time and is nowhere near like it is now. I still long become used to frequent rotation though. Remember the summer we signed Ronnie J, Ole, Poborsky and Cruyff and also Becks, Scholes, Butt, and the Nevs were youngsters and Cole was not completely established.

We often had a different side for the league and the group CL games and SAF would often pull out different tactics which no one would have guessed in Europe. The 4-0 over Porto is still a night I remember. If I remember rightly Ole, Cole and Eric all started upfront and Ronnie J was used in centre midfield for the first time with Becks and Giggs all central. No one would have predicted that side and we spanked them 4-0 with Giggs having an exceptional game in the centre.

Wow. I think we're more or less the same age but yet again I'm in awe of your forensic memory of games from years ago (and frankly, worried about my own!)

 

[Pogue Mahone]

In terms of skill set and form that's a pretty good shout except Hargo... i know fitness probably isn't in the forefront of this XI, but the Likes of Nani and Park should slot in there as opposed to a guy who is an everywhere player.

Can't argue with the other choices though.

I would argue that Park and Berbatov should feature and a fully fit Wes Brown or Neville would get the nod ahead of Raffael.

You and JCurr would probably disagree but that's the point of this thread

 

[Ekeke]

In terms of skill set and form that's a pretty good shout except Hargo... i know fitness probably isn't in the forefront of this XI, but the Likes of Nani and Park should slot in there as opposed to a guy who is an everywhere player.

Can't argue with the other choices though.

To be fair, when Giggs plays there he just floats about all over the place popping up on either wing.

Definately an added emphasis on Ronaldo or Rooney needing to score with that lineup though.

Plus if Giggs drifts onto the right, that means Hargreaves suddenly becomes central in that move

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

No, haven't changed my stand on it.

Changes should be kept to a minimum.

Sir Alex thinks otherwise though.

 

[Anderson Searl]

I would argue that Park and Berbatov should feature and a fully fit Wes Brown or Neville would get the nod ahead of Raffael.

You and JCurr would probably disagree but that's the point of this thread

Forgot about Wes (And he's my second favorite player for the last decade or so).

Yes Wes > Rafael as well when in form.

I'm indifferent on Berbatov still, if we play a 4-4-2 Berbatov start yes, but his formation seemed to imply Giggs sitting in a 4-5-1/4-3-3, rather than a 4-4-2.

A shout to Mr.O'Shea as well... never thought i'd see the day he and Fletcher are in contention for regular spots... we've come a long way with them.

 

[Anderson Searl]

To be fair, when Giggs plays there he just floats about all over the place popping up on either wing.

Definately an added emphasis on Ronaldo or Rooney needing to score with that lineup though.

Plus if Giggs drifts onto the right, that means Hargreaves suddenly becomes central in that move

Which is why I made the point of Park being in there > Hargreaves.

Giggs goes right or left, and Park is on the other flank whilst Ronaldo gets into attacking spots.

The thing that makes Giggs a mainstay (Putting his physical ability aside) in my XI is the fact he can play any of the top 6 slots in the field with adequate to GREAT result.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No, haven't changed my stand on it.

Changes should be kept to a minimum.

Sir Alex thinks otherwise though.

SAF > Boring

But we already knew that.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

SAF > Boring

But we already knew that.

Not by much though

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Cheers. Nice to hear. I was a young lad then. I was talking more of the general trend of European football though. Was Fergie really such a trendsetter tactically?

I would not call him a tactical trendsetter but SAF has a long history of dictating tactics which have worked effectively against the opposition. First one that sticks out is the way we lined up against Barca in the CWC final all the way back to 91. Mcclair was used in midfield to shackle Koeman and Hughes was played upfront on his own and it worked very well.

Fergie learned alot from our early years in Europe as we were embarrased in 93/94 and 94/95 and then later by a very good Juve side twice in the group stages and Fener at home in 96/97. Porto was our first big win against a good side in Europe in the CL and after that we started to regularly beat top sides in Europe after we beat Juve for the first time at O.T in 97/98.

Here a couple of youtube links to those early European nights.
Porto(the last two breakaway goals are brilliant and are the types of things that would have happened to us the years previous)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUCeMiTUNn4

Can't find a link to the 3-2 vs Juve when Scholes and Giggs scored crackers. Used to be on there.

 

[JCurr]

Not to be a combative shite... But if none of you would take Hargo opposite Ronaldo along with the rest of the lads which I picked, you're absolutely being unreasonable. Park? Fletcher? Come on. Hargreaves would not be central in forward moves. He would be cover for those moves unless he'd be playing crosses into the middle. Crosses of which he is quite adept at playing. And with Carrick bombing forward along with every other player on the pitch besides Scholes and the central defenders, Hargo is quite a great option in either a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1.

 

[Ekeke]

Carrick bombing forward?

Is there much point in that when he plays his current role much better than anyone else at the club?

 

[Anderson Searl]

Not to be a combative shite... But if none of you would take Hargo opposite Ronaldo along with the rest of the lads which I picked, you're absolutely being unreasonable. Park? Fletcher? Come on. Hargreaves would not be central in forward moves. He would be cover for those moves unless he'd be playing crosses into the middle. Crosses of which he is quite adept at playing. And with Carrick bombing forward along with every other player on the pitch besides Scholes and the central defenders, Hargo is quite a great option in either a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1.

Fairplay but in the event i'd much rather have Hargo > Rafael than Hargo > Park.

That's just me though.

 

[JCurr]

Carrick bombing forward?

Is there much point in that when he plays his current role much better than anyone else at the club?

His current role which has seen him bomb into the box with regularity?

 

[Brwned]

Not to be a combative shite... But if none of you would take Hargo opposite Ronaldo along with the rest of the lads which I picked, you're absolutely being unreasonable. Park? Fletcher? Come on. Hargreaves would not be central in forward moves. He would be cover for those moves unless he'd be playing crosses into the middle. Crosses of which he is quite adept at playing. And with Carrick bombing forward along with every other player on the pitch besides Scholes and the central defenders, Hargo is quite a great option in either a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1.

Park's better than him.

 

[JCurr]

Park's better than him.

Park BETTER than Hargreaves??? Are you fecking kidding me? More pace. Better technique. Better strike from distance when cutting in... So what does Park have to offer?

 

[Brwned]

Park BETTER than Hargreaves??? Are you fecking kidding me? More pace. Better technique. Better strike from distance when cutting in... So what does Park have to offer?

Ability with the ball.

 

[JCurr]

Ability with the ball.

PPPfffhhhhbbb!!! Every match there are posts about Park wasting chances in the box.