The Higher Education Thread | First University with £18k pa fees to open

[Ubik]

Students should pay for their own education.

You mean all of it?

According to Liam Fox on Question Time last night, the ratio of student/tax in the new system is 60/40 (and I suspect this is a generous figure). At 9k a year, that makes a full degree around 15k per year (before the maintenance loan - another 3k a year). Non one's going to pay that. If you're willing to force students to go to other countries for the education and potentially losing those graduates as UK employees (and, as such, taxpayers), pretty much shutting down all universities in this country in the process, then go for it. Smart move.

While we're at it, why don't we let people that don't use the NHS, public transport, state schools and such opt out of paying tax? That'll make the country better off.

 

[onlyoneunited]

Charlie Gilmore the very same guy who was interviewed during the protests, either smashed out of his head or naturally sounding retarded, saying that the students were trashing the place because they were angry and stealing property.

Personally i don't think an apology is enough, people like him should be made to clean up the damge they helped to cause.

People need to take a step back realise just how priviledged we are in this country to have free education up to university and that university education is a priviledge and not a right.

 

[F-Red]

You mean all of it?

According to Liam Fox on Question Time last night, the ratio of student/tax in the new system is 60/40 (and I suspect this is a generous figure). At 9k a year, that makes a full degree around 15k per year (before the maintenance loan - another 3k a year). Non one's going to pay that. If you're willing to force students to go to other countries for the education and potentially losing those graduates as UK employees (and, as such, taxpayers), pretty much shutting down all universities in this country in the process, then go for it. Smart move.

They should only pay for university education, the rest should be state funded. I think that the problem with this announcement is that they've made to severe a jump. Tripling fee's isn't the best way, gradual increase over time? Possibly. The bottom line is, students who want to go to university should pay for it. It's a choice they want to take. Last night my post here was saying that maybe this might actually cut the wheat from the chaff. There's too many people who go to university for the sake of going to university, for the lifestyle & not the education.

Those that are serious about education will pay it, as they know what they want & the job they'll eventually end up in.

While we're at it, why don't we let people that don't use the NHS, public transport, state schools and such opt out of paying tax? That'll make the country better off.

Well, you're missing my point somewhat. NHS, Public Transport & State schools are all integral parts of society. University, whilst seen as important in the future, isn't as big as other key components or rather it doesn't offer benefits as big as that of NHS, Public Transport & State Schools.

 

[afrocentricity]

I've decided I'm going to run for office next year and make the world a better place, that's a fcukin promise, I swear. PM me regarding donations of time and more importantly money.

On a serious note, really disappointed in the way things are going.

 

[Commadus]

They should only pay for university education, the rest should be state funded. I think that the problem with this announcement is that they've made to severe a jump. Tripling fee's isn't the best way, gradual increase over time? Possibly. The bottom line is, students who want to go to university should pay for it. It's a choice they want to take. Last night my post here was saying that maybe this might actually cut the wheat from the chaff. There's too many people who go to university for the sake of going to university, for the lifestyle & not the education.

Those that are serious about education will pay it, as they know what they want & the job they'll eventually end up in.



Well, you're missing my point somewhat. NHS, Public Transport & State schools are all integral parts of society. University, whilst seen as important in the future, isn't as big as other key components or rather it doesn't offer benefits as big as that of NHS, Public Transport & State Schools.

The benefits from University research and breakthrough directly go on to create new products and services etc. Drug breakthroughs, technology breakthroughs.

I just need to see some projections on University funding and student numbers to see whether this will work out.

Also more debt means more fees for banks so can only be a good thing.

 

[F-Red]

The benefits from University research and breakthrough directly go on to create new products and services etc. Drug breakthroughs, technology breakthroughs.

I completely agree, however the percentage of all university students that actually go on & do those things? Probably less than 10%.

It's a nice, comfortable argument people propose when the talk of fees come up. However in reality the amount of people that actually add weight to that argument doesn't equate to a reasonable figure to justify it.

 

[Ubik]

They should only pay for university education, the rest should be state funded. I think that the problem with this announcement is that they've made to severe a jump. Tripling fee's isn't the best way, gradual increase over time? Possibly. The bottom line is, students who want to go to university should pay for it. It's a choice they want to take. Last night my post here was saying that maybe this might actually cut the wheat from the chaff. There's too many people who go to university for the sake of going to university, for the lifestyle & not the education.

Those that are serious about education will pay it, as they know what they want & the job they'll eventually end up in.

I know, that 15k figure was the University education. For a 3 year course, that's £45k, even before adding on the £9k student loan. To say "those that are serious about education will pay" is just naive, I'm sorry to say. Those that are extremely headstrong, confident in their own ability and ability to pay it off over time may go. Those that want to learn but don't wish to accrue £50k worth of debt over three years for something that was once free, won't. Those that are rich enough to be able to pay that much back without worrying, regardless of their abilities, will go, and be allowed to go because the unis need money so desperately. If you want to stop people doing media studies degrees because you fail to see their worth, then work out a way of getting to them before reaching university age and show them that there are other directions to go in which will enhance their life in greater ways. Don't put them off by hiking the prices.

Well, you're missing my point somewhat. NHS, Public Transport & State schools are all integral parts of society. University, whilst seen as important in the future, isn't as big as other key components or rather it doesn't offer benefits as big as that of NHS, Public Transport & State Schools.

I think what I said was the logical extension of your own point - that people that don't use the service (university) shouldn't pay for it. I'd strongly argue that University is an integral part of a modern society, and whilst it can be argued that students can pay for PART of it, it should never be in the majority, let alone whole thing. Society benefits greatly from the work of universities, so why shouldn't society as a whole invest in it? People seem to be acting as if it's only the students themselves who get anything out of it.

EDIT - Okay, another example. My sister went to Uni to study English Lit. Originally, her aim was to become a journalist. Over time, that idea became less appealing. Next, she thought about going into publishing. The reality of getting into that business put her off that eventually. In the end, she became a teacher, at secondary school level, and a bloody good one at that. Is her worth to society great enough to pay off her fees? Should she be punished for not knowing what area she'd be going into prior to joining uni? Is English Lit exempt from such loans? Is a teacher's salary high enough to justify them?

 

[SmashedHombre]

I completely agree, however the percentage of all university students that actually go on & do those things? Probably less than 10%.

It's a nice, comfortable argument people propose when the talk of fees come up. However in reality the amount of people that actually add weight to that argument doesn't equate to a reasonable figure to justify it.

And what percentage would it be if students were forced to entirely fund their uni education themselves? 0.10%? And why should those students who have aspirations and work hard suffer for the laziness of the others?

For that matter, why should it just be uni education that is self-funded? Why not all schooling? Let's be honest, how many people who study chemistry at GCSE go on to be a scientist? .5%? How many people who studied history whilst 10 years old go on to become Historians? 0.05%? We could save ourselves a fortune if we abolished government funded education all together

 

[Commadus]

I completely agree, however the percentage of all university students that actually go on & do those things? Probably less than 10%.

It's a nice, comfortable argument people propose when the talk of fees come up. However in reality the amount of people that actually add weight to that argument doesn't equate to a reasonable figure to justify it.

But you miss the point that Universities probably need other courses where they can charge over the running costs to subsidise the courses that cost more.

Research is very expensive and you can't just leave it to market forces for it to happen.

Harvard themselves admit that they charge about half of what the courses actually cost on some courses and use their endowmment and benefactors to fill the funding gaps.

You want a US system well you will have its numerous problems.

 

[F-Red]

And what percentage would it be if students were forced to entirely fund their uni education themselves? 0.10%? And why should those students who have aspirations and work hard suffer for the laziness of the others?

So you're saying people who don't want to go to university are lazy?

 

[SmashedHombre]

So you're saying people who don't want to go to university are lazy?

No, I'm saying why should the students who want to work hard have to pay for all of their higher education because some other students are lazy?

 

[Spoony]

would it be cheaper to study abroad in future? I reckon we'll have thousands of people graduating from the University of Ulan Bator.

 

[F-Red]

No, I'm saying why should the students who want to work hard have to pay for all of their higher education because some other students are lazy?

Well thats a question of ethics of those that go to university, easiest way to sort that out is to make everyone pay for their education. Those that want it hard enough will ensure that its money well spent. If the state fully paid for the education & the lazy students came out with a 2:2 then the state is wasting money on them. feck, having graduated last year from university i know first hand that the money students have is balanced 80-20 in favour of alcohol.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

But you miss the point that Universities probably need other courses where they can charge over the running costs to subsidise the courses that cost more.

Research is very expensive and you can't just leave it to market forces for it to happen.

Harvard themselves admit that they charge about half of what the courses actually cost on some courses and use their endowmment and benefactors to fill the funding gaps.

You want a US system well you will have its numerous problems.

A lot of Universities in the US and Canada charge higher rates to foreign students to help make up the difference, too.

 

[F-Red]

A lot of Universities in the US and Canada charge higher rates to foreign students to help make up the difference, too.

UK does as well. University i was at was charging 6 times the UK student rate for foreign students.

 

[SmashedHombre]

Well thats a question of ethics of those that go to university, easiest way to sort that out is to make everyone pay for their education. Those that want it hard enough will ensure that its money well spent. If the state fully paid for the education & the lazy students came out with a 2:2 then the state is wasting money on them. feck, having graduated last year from university i know first hand that the money students have is balanced 80-20 in favour of alcohol.

Then you may as well apply that argument to all schooling really. I agree too many students use their student loans as beer tokens, but making every student pay for the laziness of the others is not the answer. There are just as many who aim to make something of themselves, but without the opportunity for higher education will just end up stacking boxes in Tesco's. Your solution would put higher education solely in the hands of the rich, hell we would probably see a class divide all over again with the already rich taking the better jobs and the most money due to better education.

 

[Ubik]

Well thats a question of ethics of those that go to university, easiest way to sort that out is to make everyone pay for their education. Those that want it hard enough will ensure that its money well spent. If the state fully paid for the education & the lazy students came out with a 2:2 then the state is wasting money on them. feck, having graduated last year from university i know first hand that the money students have is balanced 80-20 in favour of alcohol.

So, my friends that had to spend all their maintenance loan on accomodation, were spending their small grant money and whatever they got from working on alcohol 80% of the time? Funny that, don't quite remember it that way.

 

[SmashedHombre]

A lot of Universities in the US and Canada charge higher rates to foreign students to help make up the difference, too.

Well I remember reading an article on the BBC website not long a go about students flocking to the US to study, as it isn't too much more expensive now- and with the new proposals it will be about the same price. If not more expensive to study in the UK.


But if it's the same price to study in America as it is the UK, why would people choose the UK? I know I wouldn't- if I'm going to be paying the same regardless, then it would be a great experience to go live in a foreign country for 3 years.

I already plan on doing my MA in Canada if I can

 

[Spoony]

I already plan on doing my MA in Canada if I can

How much will that cost, gimpo?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Well I remember reading an article on the BBC website not long a go about students flocking to the US to study, as it isn't too much more expensive now- and with the new proposals it will be about the same price. If not more expensive to study in the UK.


But if it's the same price to study in America as it is the UK, why would people choose the UK? I know I wouldn't- if I'm going to be paying the same regardless, then it would be a great experience to go live in a foreign country for 3 years.

I already plan on doing my MA in Canada if I can

Your money will have a bit more purchasing power here as well. Where are you planning on attending?

 

[F-Red]

Then you may as well apply that argument to all schooling really. I agree too many students use their student loans as beer tokens, but making every student pay for the laziness of the others is not the answer. There are just as many who aim to make something of themselves, but without the opportunity for higher education will just end up stacking boxes in Tesco's. Your solution would put higher education solely in the hands of the rich, hell we would probably see a class divide all over again with the already rich taking the better jobs and the most money due to better education.

Some people i know who have done higher education are doing that exact job and stacking shelves in Tesco. So your idea is based on ideals of what university could be like, as opposed to the stark reality of it. I think the way forward is those that put in the effort, that actually are there to push themselves have some form of scholarship, how it is constructed is up for debate, but its the easiest way to cut the hollyoaks style students. It might even make a degree worth something again.

So, my friends that had to spend all their maintenance loan on accomodation, were spending their small grant money and whatever they got from working on alcohol 80% of the time? Funny that, don't quite remember it that way.

Your friend lives in an expensive place then. Full student loan when i was there would cover about 50% of your accommodation (this was only a couple of years ago). Yes majority of those i knew throughout university prioritised their funds on the nights out they could have & what they could get. Don't be naive.

 

[Ubik]

Your friend lives in an expensive place then. Full student loan when i was there would cover about 50% of your accommodation (this was only a couple of years ago). Yes majority of those i knew throughout university prioritised their funds on the nights out they could have & what they could get. Don't be naive.

Was about 3k a year. I'm not being naive, you're generalising. And it's friends, not friend, there were plenty in the same situation.

What's your opinion on the English degree by the way, you didn't answer? Are future teachers worth it?

 

[F-Red]

What's your opinion on the English degree by the way, you didn't answer? Are future teachers worth it?

My opinion of the degree in what context? I'm flattered.

Future teachers worth it? It's an oversubscribed market now. Started off with the thousands of pounds golden handshake welcoming them to the profession & has carried on ever since.

 

[Silva]

Just catching up on this now, looks to me like the polices behaviour has been nothing short of appalling. Just read about the disabled guy being dragged across the floor and the kid who had to undergo an operation. It's making me sick, whoever made the calls on these tactics deserves the beating of a lifetime, the fecking dipshit - does he not know there are minors there? It's simply unacceptable.

 

[F-Red]

Just catching up on this now, looks to me like the polices behaviour has been nothing short of appalling. Just read about the disabled guy being dragged across the floor and the kid who had to undergo an operation. It's making me sick, whoever made the calls on these tactics deserves the beating of a lifetime, the fecking dipshit - does he not know there are minors there? It's simply unacceptable.

I agree in some aspects, but what about those that have intentionally gone out to vandalise? They're suddenly fecking angels here?

Moreover who made the call for the disabled guy to be on the fecking front line in the first place.

 

[Sir Matt]

C-Span has yesterday's Parliament debate on rather than the Democrat's filibuster of the tax deal between Republicans and Obama.

 

[Team Brian GB]

Just catching up on this now, looks to me like the polices behaviour has been nothing short of appalling. Just read about the disabled guy being dragged across the floor and the kid who had to undergo an operation. It's making me sick, whoever made the calls on these tactics deserves the beating of a lifetime, the fecking dipshit - does he not know there are minors there? It's simply unacceptable.

Simply unacceptable? Did you not see the thousands upon thousands of improvised missiles thrown at the police yesterday? The graffiti on national monuments, the surges throw police lines, the smashing of windows in threatreland, trying to break into government buildings, attacking the heir to the throne - obviously not.

The primary purpose of the police is to maintain order, it was clear yesterday that the tactics they were using were not accomplishing that in which case the police would have been justified in bringing dogs, water cannons and tear gas in and doing whatever they had to in order to keep the peace.

 

[Sir Matt]

Just catching up on this now, looks to me like the polices behaviour has been nothing short of appalling. Just read about the disabled guy being dragged across the floor and the kid who had to undergo an operation. It's making me sick, whoever made the calls on these tactics deserves the beating of a lifetime, the fecking dipshit - does he not know there are minors there? It's simply unacceptable.

The same can easily be said about the students but they'll catch little flack for that. I'm not saying that the police weren't being abusive in some cases.

 

[Ubik]

My opinion of the degree in what context? I'm flattered.

Future teachers worth it? It's an oversubscribed market now. Started off with the thousands of pounds golden handshake welcoming them to the profession & has carried on ever since.

In the context that I gave in the example, in my earlier reply to your post.

 

[Silva]

Thousands of misiles? Counting isn't your strong point is it? Of course those who commit criminal offences should be punished but not how the police did it. If the police had actively arrested wrong doers rather than being far too happy to use their batons - okay, but frankly they went about it all wrong - The police should have used violence as a last resort and I'm afraid they simply didn't. Let's not forget, there will always be violence when people protest against things of these nature but the police reaction was unacceptable. The police tactics were appalling, they should have done better.

 

[Silva]

Moreover who made the call for the disabled guy to be on the fecking front line in the first place.

As far as I can tell (I think someone mentioned this on this threads last page too) this isn't the first time the guy in question has been involved in protest, so it's probably fair to say he wanted to be on the front line - but that does not excuse dragging him along the floor.

 

[F-Red]

In the context that I gave in the example, in my earlier reply to your post.

In the way you've phrased whats important and what benefits society. English Literature doesn't have much of an impact. English Language does.

I'm honoured.

 

[F-Red]

As far as I can tell (I think someone mentioned this on this threads last page too) this isn't the first time the guy in question has been involved in protest, so it's probably fair to say he wanted to be on the front line - but that does not excuse dragging him along the floor.

No, but then should be exempt from being called an idiot for putting himself right in the mix when its not exactly an 'accessible' environment?

 

[Ubik]

In the way you've phrased whats important and what benefits society. English Literature doesn't have much of an impact. English Language does.

How did you work that one out?

I'd class teachers as important to society, whether they be teaching Maths, Science, Geography, History, PE, whatever. Students that end up becoming those teachers are not going to be motivated enough to pay fees to the tune of £50k.

Saying that paying the entirity of a university education will improve standards is just a bit ridiculous, I'm afraid. The rich would have free reign, not the driven.

 

[Silva]

No, but then should be exempt from being called an idiot for putting himself right in the mix when its not exactly an 'accessible' environment?

Oh no of course, he's a bit of a Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime, if your on the front line you should expect to be physically involved, but you wouldn't expect to be abused like that. The guy has a motor disease - how much can he provoke the police?

 

[F-Red]

Saying that paying the entirity of a university education will improve standards is just a bit ridiculous, I'm afraid. The rich would have free reign, not the driven.

but they're not paying it all upfront or right away, they're paying it over time. So it will help those from poorer backgrounds as much as the rich. The point is ensuring those who are doing the education are the ones who are paying for it.

Oh no of course, he's a bit of a Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime, if your on the front line you should expect to be physically involved, but you wouldn't expect to be abused like that. The guy has a motor disease - how much can he provoke the police?

Very true, but if you've got 50-60 people wanting to kick the crap out of you as a policeman, its going to be very difficult to avoid him whilst ensuring the others are kept under control. A foolish move from the kid in the chair.

 

[Silva]

On the newsnight report regarding the clash there was one thing that particularly hit me - A clip showing that as soon as people got out of the area they were being kettled in the police shoved them right back in, very irresponsible IMO.

 

[F-Red]

Why is that irresponsible? They're containing the demonstration, they have no idea who or what these people could do outside of the group. Or is it a case that these idiots have every right to knock feck out of London?

 

[Silva]

As far as I'm concerned, unless it's a last resort, kettling people in crowded conditions is always irresponsible.

 

[F-Red]

As far as I'm concerned, unless it's a last resort, kettling people in crowded conditions is always irresponsible.

So you believe the people causing the vandalism were being responsible human beings yesterday?

Have a word you mug.