Those figures are nonsense Cider. The average uk wage is c£26k, the figures you quote put it at c£36k!!
All change of ownership and Red Knights related posts here please
- Thread starter Gunnar
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I didn't actually write the piece mate - Jim White did
Obviously the Glazers own every penny that comes into the clubs accounts. The club will be their favourite port of call for any money they need to pay off the debts. However, if the owners were to become bankrupt and unable to pay off it's debts the banks would not have legal a case against the club to pay off PIK debt - which is probably swapped into another form of debt, or paid off.
The figures aren't nonsense, datura, the exchange rate has altered since publish is all.
Check out the minimum wage figures in my post above; they're more accurate to date.
I know, that's why I credited it to Jim White when I quoted the piece.
Use the most up to date average wage figures or it's a meaningless comparison. The minimum wage figures are fairly irrelevant as well unless you put numbers to the amount of people on those wages.
You also have to take account of tax rates as well to make a meaningful comparison. Some people might say that you have deliberately selected the figure that most support your argument, but that's something only evil organisations like MUST do according to some.
Couldn't agree more. If I took a survey of salaries in my place of work, the average would be much nearer 26k. The only people earning anything like 36k are those in management and they are vastly out numbered by the rest of us
Ridiculous comparison. To get a true outlook you'd have to compare Manchester to Barcelona. Comparing the UK to Spain would be like comparing United's prices to Arsenal's.
In fact it'd be an interesting project for someone, comparing Premier League (and/or La Liga) ticket prices to the average wage of people within x miles of the stadium. I bet it'd be quite damning.
To be honest, the average salary of people in Manchester vs Barcelona is pretty irrelevant - fact is that they dont have the amount of demand for tickets as we do, they have a much bigger stadium yet their average attendance is around the same as ours.
Plus their ticketing system is very different to ours, there is a big thread on it all on here somewhere which I might try and dig out - the difference in prices is nowhere near what is said in that article (poor journalism as usual). To get that cheapest level of season ticket at Barca you have to have been a member for decades (it is a bit like our loyalty pot) - it is not available to everyone.
A better comparison is to compare our ticket prices to Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle, City etc - in fact I was planning to start a new thread on this as some new data is availabe and will do it when I get a chance.
Plus their ticketing system is very different to ours, there is a big thread on it all on here somewhere which I might try and dig out - the difference in prices is nowhere near what is said in that article (poor journalism as usual). To get that cheapest level of season ticket at Barca you have to have been a member for decades (it is a bit like our loyalty pot) - it is not available to everyone.
A better comparison is to compare our ticket prices to Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle, City etc - in fact I was planning to start a new thread on this as some new data is availabe and will do it when I get a chance.
The most telling comparison (if accurate) in that article was our prices being lower than that of Barcelona when we were a PLC.
Our most expensive ticket for next season is £931 our lowest is £513. Compare that to Arsenal and Chelsea. The continent has always been cheaper. When we were paying around the £20 per game mark you could watch any top team in Italy for about £5.
I think I'm right in saying that doesn't include the ACS though? So you can automatically add on 3 CL home games (If recent years are to go by we'll get to the QF's at least, so 2 more). 5 CL home games adds on a fair amount, and if we are drawn at home in the CC and FA Cups then you're looking at about another 8 or 9 games on top, which you are forced to buy (yes you can opt out of the CC but as we've seen in the last week a lot of people have been unable to apply for the CL Final because of it).
£931 isn't the true cost of a season ticket.
06/07
6 CL home games
4 FA Cup home games
10 extra games
07/08
6 CL home games
3 FA cup home games
1 CC home game
10 extra games
08/09
6 CL home games
1 FA cup home game
3 CC games
10 extra games
09/10
5 CL home games
1 FA cup home game
3 CC home games
9 extra games
10/11
6 CL home games
3 FA cup home games
1 CC home game
10 extra games
So in the last 4 seasons you've had 10, 10, 9, 10 extra games on top of your season tickets. Which I'd imagine will work out at an extra £400 or so, if not more.
6 CL home games
4 FA Cup home games
10 extra games
07/08
6 CL home games
3 FA cup home games
1 CC home game
10 extra games
08/09
6 CL home games
1 FA cup home game
3 CC games
10 extra games
09/10
5 CL home games
1 FA cup home game
3 CC home games
9 extra games
10/11
6 CL home games
3 FA cup home games
1 CC home game
10 extra games
So in the last 4 seasons you've had 10, 10, 9, 10 extra games on top of your season tickets. Which I'd imagine will work out at an extra £400 or so, if not more.
Apologies, but my earlier post was incorrect as I'd worked out the percentage of minimum wage that the relative price of a season ticket whilst looking at wages in international dollars but prices in pound sterling, which is obviously not a relevant calculation.
Corrected by converting each annual minimum wage into pound sterling, should have read...
ciderman9000000 said:
Corrected by converting each annual minimum wage into pound sterling, should have read...
ciderman9000000 said:
But who cares for how much you pay? The club is on a fine footing. Our debt has come down. We have bucket-loads of cash for transfer. You guys dont know how lucky you are. Moaning and bitching about ticket prices. Morons.
Nobody's saying that we shouldn't care about ticket prices, I believe though that ticket prices are at a fair level and that those bitching and moaning about them are mostly just exaggerating for effect. At the end of the day, everybody wants cheaper stuff, a lower cost and higher quality of living, but only some believe it to be their God-given birthright. Football tickets are in high demand and of finite supply; the Glazers didn't orchestrate those mechanics, they're simply in place to take advantage of them. If you don't think tickets are value for money then don't buy them.
The other points of my post have been conveniently ignored. Many here are gloating about the debt, EBITDA, money in the bank for transfer etc, without giving a feck about the fans' plight.
That was what I was trying to make out.
That was what I was trying to make out.
I thought 3/4 results were out at 11?
The issue is that supporters groups have not given a toss about the 'plight' for years either.
You'll seldom hear from any of them unless they're trying to pontificate about the debt. Ticket prices is evidently a non-issue for them. I think that's unfortunate, myself.
Is the other 1/4 due after 12?
What you're trying to make out remains unclear. Perhaps if your first post hadn't been just a few lines of vaguely on-topic sarcasm we'd have a better idea?
Sorry, mate. Next time I post when you are in the mix, I shall use pure Victorian value ideas.
I have to say cider I do love your spinning. A poxy 1.59% difference, or a monumental 24% difference?
I have to say cider I do love your spinning. A poxy 1.59% difference, or a monumental 24% difference?
You're quite right, I could have worded that better. The important figures though, in my mind at least, are the two percentages of minimum wage it would cost to purchase a season ticket at either club; and I'm sure you'd agree that the 'difference of' 1.59% is actually very little when you take into account that the article I originally took argument with seemed to be holding Barcelona up as shining examples of generosity compared with the Glazer's evil blood-sucking. Afterall, the two figures may as well be 0.001% and 0.002% respectively, creating a massive 100% 'difference' between the two, and yet each would still represent a very small cost to the fan with little real-world monetary value to separate them. To put it another way; if Barcelona were a club in the UK, then a ticket at 6.76% minimum wage might cost £834; hardly fantastically cheap value for money, as the author of the article was trying to imply; which was my original point.
In Barcelona then we have a club which is enjoying fan ownership, but one which, though unable to even come close to filling their stadium each week, is still charging a relative fortune for an annual season ticket. Conclude from that what you will.
The important figures though, in my mind at least, are the two percentages of minimum wage it would cost to purchase a season ticket at either club; and I'm sure you'd agree that the 'difference of' 1.59% is very, very little when you take into account that the article I originally took argument with seemed to be holding Barcelona up as shining examples of generosity compared with the Glazer's evil blood-sucking. Afterall, the two figures may as well be 0.001% and 0.002% respectively, creating a massive 100% 'difference' between the two, and yet each would still represent a very small cost to the fan with little real-world monetary value to separate them. To put it another way; if Barcelona were a club in the UK, then a ticket at 6.76% minimum wage might cost £834; hardly such fantastically cheap value for money as which the author of the article was trying to make out, which was my original point.
I'm not sure about that conclusion to be perfectly honest. The difference between spending 6.76 and 8.35% of their yearly gross wage before even thinking about anything else is pretty huge to be honest. To put it into perspective an average families spends c. 1% of their wages on healthcare every year (perscriptions etc) or 1.5% on education.
/edit: but I agree the author of that post is being quite disingenuous with his selective comparisons.
How many times do you repeat this? The problem is not that they don't think it's an issue, more that they have no dialogue any more with the club since opposing the takeover.
I agree, of course, match-going is a very expensive hobby. What I'm saying though is that it's not just United fans who're paying; it's not as if other clubs charge a mere pittance in comparison; so why is this always used as a stick with which to beat the Glazers? Going to football matches is a very popular activity with limitations as to availability; it's this that causes the ticket prices to be as high as they are; market value. Are the Glazers be demonised for charging fair prices for their tickets? And if so (which I have seen argued) then why do other clubs not bear similar sentiments towards their own, equally as opportunistic owners?
If you knew my theory on the issue (which you may because of previous posts), I think what we charge is perfectly reasonable. At the end of the day I'm of the view that if I am a Rolex watch enthusiast, I couldn't turn around and bemoan the fact that it costs me thousands a year to pursue my hobby. Likewise millions of people would want a United season ticket if it cost £1, whereas 65,000 want a United season ticket at the current price.
Charging anything but what we currently charge would be unfair. How would you quantify it or chose who is deserving? If we charged £1, how would you decide which 65,000 of the millions got one? Likewise if we charged £300, or £400.
Either way you are going to be applying unfair criterion in order to pick one fan over another, so why not make it the only criteria in life that decides everything, from the food you eat and the clothes you wear to the house you live in.
The only irk I have is that fans who have paid the money to make the club what it is today aren't getting a break. I think anyone who has owned a season ticket for over x (ie 15-20) years should get a large discount (with this discount passing on through each generation the ticket is retained, eg father-son).
I might buy a Barcelona season ticket for next season then sell it for the El Clasico.
I agree, I was just wondering where he (the reporter) got the figure of £1,030.
Dunno. I think he may have been projecting next season's prices based on previous rises. Unless there's been some decision we're as yet unaware of?
Think you're in the wrong thread Randall.
Wrong thread mate.
Wrong thread.
I'm not going to bother read his post, but I reckon Randall Flagg has posted in the wrong thread.
Typical A1Dan, always jumping to conclusions...