Is our Midfield that Bad?

Jimmy_Bond

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Pogba is potentially the best midfielder in the league when he wants to be. If McTominay really steps up like he has demonstrated in pre season, our midfield will be absolutely fine. I would also like to see Gomes given more game time, as he looks like a proper player.

Thin on the ground? Absolutely. Awful? Far from it. Too many people on here only watch highlight reels and have no idea how real football works. Liverpool's midfield looked horrific on paper two years ago. Now the same players are considered one of the best midfield units in the league, and have just won the CL.
 

KristianMackle

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The midfield is really really bad. I didnt care about replacing Rom. I wanted another midfielder.
Look at Spurs midfield of Lo Celso, Ndombele, Sissoko, Eriksen, Winks. That midfield will use as a training match because we may not get 30% possession. Let's not talk about Liverpool's or City's.
But Ole says we'll be pressing and playing quicker so let's see.
 

stepic

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McT is not world class. Pogba on his day is, but if he's expected to carry the whole midfield on his own he's just not that type and not that character. Our midfield is a huge mess and one injury away from relegation level.
he said McT was very good on his day, not world class (albeit it was worded poorly).

which is true. but it's a lot of pressure on McT at the moment to take that next step up. we need one of him or Fred to do so, and that's a huge gamble for a club our size to be taking. not good enough frankly.
 

Ash_G

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We are taking a risk in terms of Pogba staying fit (and being more consistent) and other players stepping up/getting back in to form but we shouldn't forget that the defence being stronger should mean that we should be able to step up a bit more on the pitch. I think this will help everyone as players like Matic don't need to be so deep and similarly even someone like Mata can hopefully be higher up the pitch. I think this will open up passing options which will mean that we're less susceptible to teams that press. It won't happen straight away but hopefully we'll see that soon.
 

BazzaBear

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The same Herrera who when played alongside Matic and Pogba made our best midfield 3?
I'm not arguing that he didn't. I liked him a lot. But to suggest that we're massively weakened when he started less than half our league games anyway seems odd.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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First team partnership, Pogba-McTominay, has good chances to come good but there will be some hiccups in the early stages and people will be moaning about the absence of an out and out defensive midfielder. But i'm willing to be patient with these two.

In terms of depth and variety of options, we should have a plan to make things easier for the manager. But we do not excel at this right now, do we? Quite the contrary.

I agree with the OP, depending on Lingard/Mata to carry on the massive burden of creativity on their shoulders is a much worse risk to take going into the season. For what it's worth, i'd look into the possibility of getting James on a loan. In the worst-case scenario, we would send him back to Madrid at the end of next season and we will still have Mata and Lingard. I also believe that Matuidi would still be a nice and cheap replacement for both Herrera and Fellaini for the next couple of seasons until McT matures and Ole gets the midfielders he wants.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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I'm not arguing that he didn't. I liked him a lot. But to suggest that we're massively weakened when he started less than half our league games anyway seems odd.
The team's form sunk immediately after he got injured. Its not a coincidence that when the attack is built around pressuring and winning the ball in the opposition half, a combative midfielder who recovers possession is essential.
 

BlakeUtd

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A lot of fans don't appreciate what a good midfield is.

The beauty and genius of so many midfielders is to read the game. Therefore a lot of their work is done off the ball.

And this goes unnoticed by so many fans.

For example: Our fan base was giving out about our midfield ever since we lost Roy Keane in 2005 right up until Fergie retired in 2013. They kept saying 'our midfield isn't good enough', 'we have no world class midfielders', 'Fletcher is shit', 'We need a Roy Keane-type', 'moan, moan, moan, moan.' For years!

Yet - the midfielders between 2005 - 2013 turned out to be our best midfield of all time, because that was the most successful period in our entire 140-year history.

That midfield won five league titles in those seven seasons and got us to three Champions League finals.

Some fans were still giving out. Even today, you still read 'fans' complaining that Fergie never sorted the midfield after Keane's exit.

They clearly don't understand what it takes to create a great midfield.

In any one game, any player only ever has the ball at his feet for 2% of the ninety minutes; yet fans will ONLY judge what he does during that 2%.. they miss the entirety of the other 98%. And that other 98% is what is key for midfielders and defenders.

Our midfield is perfectly balanced at the moment.

We have three positions:

A No.6
A No.8
A No.10

For each of those options, we have

No.6 McTominay, Matic, Garner
No.8 Pobga, Fred, Pereira
No.10 Sanchez, Mata, Lingard, Gomes

Paul Pogba is arguably the best midfielder in the world, and people are giving out that our midfield isn't good enough.
Great post. You're making too much sense for most on here though. cheers
 

Flanders Devil

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It seems that United are relying too much on hoping certain players can step up. Fred, Pereira, Rashford, Martial, James, McTominay. All of which are good players, but we're needing them to perform on a consistant basis, which they haven't done previously..Let's just hope.
This for me is actually the problem. There is ALOT of stepping up across the board that needs to happen. Not saying it can’t, but it’s a case of we need them to all step up. Ideally you’d want a squad whereby you had 4-6 players you hope to step up - and if 2 do so you’ll be ok.
 

Bestietom

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United lost Herrera and Fellaini recently. Many fans argue that we need to replace both, but Fellaini was hardly much cared for by the average supporter, and most wanted him gone. Herrera was useful and a fan favourite. He also possessed a winning mentality and had some skill. However, many would argue neither player was world class and that they weren't automatic starters.

On paper, some argue that Pogba is the best midfielder in the world. Matic was terrible last year, but there's reason to believe he can improve his form. I think too many fans think you are finished after 30. He's slow, but he's always been slow. Then we have Fred, who is capped for Brazil and was wanted by Guardiola when we bought him. On paper, I'd argue that trio is better than Liverpool's. The problem is, they haven't played better. To get them to that level, each player has to improve massively. This is Fred's second season, so I have hope that he can improve. He has potential.

Then you hav McTominay who seems to be ready to step in as a starter for us. I'm actually surprised at how good he has become. He doesn't have any stand out qualities, but he keeps it simple, positions himself well and makes some good attacking runs.

Pereira is an odd one for me, and I'd be surprised if he starts regularly. He's hardworking, can dribble and is very mobile for a centre mid, but too slow for a winger, so a bit like Beckham physically. I think he's a good squad option, and not much worse then most teams' fifth option in midfield.

Then you have Gomes and Garner who can both play in midfield and make up our squad depth. Two great young prospects that most argue need to be given time in the first team. Another first team signing would hamper those prospects.

I think we could definitely use a better number ten, where we have Mata, Lingard and Gomes, but if played regularly as a ten, Mata may surprise a few of us. He is slow as a turtle (mean on the turtle), but you don't need pace to be an effective number ten.

If we find a way to make these players click, I don't think our midfield is bad at all, but every player needs to step up. Considering that none of them, bar Matic, has hit their prime yet, I think that is to be expected.

I think the lack of a new attacking player is actually more of a concern!
McTominay and Matic as the 2, with Pogba further forward is our best way to play, imo
 

Black Adder

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It's not that bad when starting 2 players are McTomminay and Pogba who I feel complement each other nicely.

But drop in quality when they're replaced with 2 from Matić/Fred/Pereira is really huge.
 

Nori-

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Fred: Looks so average and mistake prone it's crazy.
Matic: Has fallen off a cliff recently.
Mata: Painfully slow and we keep using him as a right winger?!
Pareira: Every year is the year he is supposed to shine, but never does.
Pogba: Potential to be the best in the world but always has issues off field
Lingard: In Paul Ince's words...."Bang Average"
McTominay: If he can keep his head down and not get distracted by Lingards dancing, has a bright future
Daniel James: Impressive in pre-season and excited for his United future

In conclusion..........we really needed reinforcements :(
 

RG 11

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Mctominay - good but nothing special so far
Pogba - world class on his day but wants to leave and has been inconsistent
Fred - shit
Perera - shit
Matic - bang average
James - unproven

Combine these five with an inconsistent left wing and a non existent right wing with only one semi proven striker and I have major doubts about where the goals will come from.
 

ottosec

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At the moment I would say that yes, it's bad. It's basically Pogba and some average dudes.

But there are also things we should consider, like players that are clearly talented and that could step up this season like Fred, McT, and Pereira.

Also, we've fixed our defense now and we have 2 starting CBs very good on the ball(Maguire and Lindelof) and that takes away a lot of the pressure from the midfielders and allows them to play with more confidence.

We also have an insanely talented youngster in Gomes who can play as the most advanced midfielder.

So, yeah, our midfield does not look in the best shape right now, but that could easily change in the near future.
 

Omahahaha

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A question for you guys that watched a lot of the pre-season games; How did Matic/Fred do?

We do undoubtedly look light in midfield, I still hold some kind of hope that Fred can be more consistent this year.
If Matic gets some more rest he should be able to perform okay for one more season.

Am I overly optimistic?
 

Devil may care

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Yes, it's lacking in quality and depth, Pereira isn't even a CM, he sucks when played deeper, he's better in the hole or wide right. The rest of the midifeld only has one actual top player in it.

Pogba - Undoubtely class when his mind is on it, but also petulant and doesn't want to be here, can't play in a 2 which is where Ole is playing him.

McTominay - Decent player but getting massively overhyped as fanboys tend to do with an academy player that shows any spark of promise, would be a squad player if our other options weren't so crap.

Fred - Erratic on the ball, inconsistent, has no defined role, can't really be trusted.

Matic - He's absolutely finished, walking rigor mortis.
 

VeevaVee

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I mean, if we look at how they can play, it's quite good. If we look at how they often play, it's very meh. In fact it's damn right poor.
 

Lentwood

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I am trying to look at the positives but I am afraid I have to go with "yes" in answer to the OPs question

Pogba is world-class but only in the right team/system with the right support cast around him

I am actually a big fan of McTominay but you're asking him to play 30+ games next season, big step up needed

Fred is rubbish. I'm sorry but looks very uneasy every time I see him and I'm not sure what he is supposed to be good at.

Pereira is even worse and would be nowhere near the club had we not had him from an early age.

I have defended Matic but he was very poor last season.

Herrera and Fellaini weren't world beaters but you knew what you we're getting from them. This season we are going to need McTominay, Matic and Fred to fill their quota of games and I can't see how that doesn't weaken us
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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A question for you guys that watched a lot of the pre-season games; How did Matic/Fred do?

We do undoubtedly look light in midfield, I still hold some kind of hope that Fred can be more consistent this year.
If Matic gets some more rest he should be able to perform okay for one more season.

Am I overly optimistic?
Fred missed a huge chunk of the preseason because he was off to Brazil getting married (apparently he was expecting a call up to play for the NT in the Copa America and he believed that the wedding would coincide with his vacation after the tournament). From the little we saw of him on the pitch, he looked like he always does: like a player who can offer some positive contributions in moving the ball up the pitch (something that Herrera can't do) but also one who always has a brainfart in him whenever he's on the pitch. If he adjusts his game to the physicality of the PL, he'll be a good option to have around, especially when Pogba can't play.

Matic looked heavy without the ball and rather slow in his decision making when on it. I would not have considered it a huge issue since players with his body type often take their time to reach 100% after the preseason if it hadn't been for his overall movement. The main thing that made Carrick so reliable defensively was his ability to read the game and force through his positioning the opposition team to play the ball wide. We could get another season or two out of Matic if he manages to play similarly. But he seems to get drawn to the ball very often and this is not a good thing when your legs are gradually failing you.

I don't know if you're optimistic or not. In the end, it's how you choose to view things. I like the prospect of a McT/Pogba partnership in the midfield. But we have chosen to rely on a lot of ifs and hopes for my liking. If Fred is more consistent, if Matic has one more year in him, if the youngsters prove to be good enough, if Rash/Tony realize their full potential, if Lingard becomes "Lingod" again and so on.
 

Rossa

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Why are people so certain that Matic is losing his legs, or Sanchez for that matter? According to Livehealthy, you reach your physical prime in your late 20s or early 30s: Thus, they are in their prime.
https://livehealthy.chron.com/men-women-reach-physical-peak-2652.html
According to Men's Health, you reach muscle mass at 30, endurance at 22, some other sources argue that strength is at its highest at 25, but then doesn't reduce over the next 10 years or so. Endurance is often associated with people around 30, so 22 was surprisingly low to me. Energy, however is a different matter.

Thing is, there are so many keyboard warriors on here talking about players losing their physicality when they reach 30, which is absolute bollocks - there's little evidence to support that notion. I think many players deteriorate around that age because they have been playing football since they were 6, professionals since 16 and are just fed up. If a player, however, gets his act together, one might very well have an indian summer. I think Sanchez and Matic may surprise a few of us. They need certainly not be finished physically!
 

el3mel

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It's absolutely terrible.

Pogba : Great on his day, very inconsistent and his low level is as bad as his great one.
Scott : Good player, but he's not a creative force or anything.
Fred : Terrible player.
Periera : Average at best.
Matic : Absolutely done for.
 

In Rainbows

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Why are people so certain that Matic is losing his legs, or Sanchez for that matter? According to Livehealthy, you reach your physical prime in your late 20s or early 30s: Thus, they are in their prime.
https://livehealthy.chron.com/men-women-reach-physical-peak-2652.html
According to Men's Health, you reach muscle mass at 30, endurance at 22, some other sources argue that strength is at its highest at 25, but then doesn't reduce over the next 10 years or so. Endurance is often associated with people around 30, so 22 was surprisingly low to me. Energy, however is a different matter.

Thing is, there are so many keyboard warriors on here talking about players losing their physicality when they reach 30, which is absolute bollocks - there's little evidence to support that notion. I think many players deteriorate around that age because they have been playing football since they were 6, professionals since 16 and are just fed up. If a player, however, gets his act together, one might very well have an indian summer. I think Sanchez and Matic may surprise a few of us. They need certainly not be finished physically!
Because people are watching his performances. He's very slow. The whole "losing his legs" thing is irrelevant. If this is him not losing his legs, it just means that he's still slow. That isn't good. You're essentially of the opinion that we should ignore actual evidence of his pace and performances and then saying he could suddenly turn it around. Nevermind the fact that he's been rubbish for an entire 1.5 years and if I go back to what Chelsea fans were saying in his last season before he was ever linked to us, he was rubbish then too.
 

Roboc7

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Yes it’s a weak midfield without a doubt, weakest in top 6 and Pogba apart they’d all struggle to play regularly for any top 10 team.

Perreira and McTominay won’t be as effective as they were in preseason, hype around McTominay is setting him up for a fall. Fred should have more to offer but isn’t convincing, Pogba will be up and down and Matic might hold up for a short phase of season and that’s about it.

It’s a really weak group that could have been easily strengthened and it’s real shame we didn’t bring someone in as would have made a big difference.

They also don’t appear to be players that compliment each other and Perreira and McTominay need to find their best roles.
 

Rood

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People say we didnt replace Fellaini or Herrera, but to me McTominay is Fellaini's replacement and Fred is Herrera's replacement

Fred obviously had a poor first season but it is pretty much expected for that kind of player (Brazilian from Ukrainian league) that 1st season in England will be a write off as they adjust, this season we will surely see a vast improvement from him

Still I do agree that midfield is the area of the team that looks weakest on paper and its going to take a significant step up from Fred and Andreas in particular to compensate for that
 

Omahahaha

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Fred missed a huge chunk of the preseason because he was off to Brazil getting married (apparently he was expecting a call up to play for the NT in the Copa America and he believed that the wedding would coincide with his vacation after the tournament). From the little we saw of him on the pitch, he looked like he always does: like a player who can offer some positive contributions in moving the ball up the pitch (something that Herrera can't do) but also one who always has a brainfart in him whenever he's on the pitch. If he adjusts his game to the physicality of the PL, he'll be a good option to have around, especially when Pogba can't play.

Matic looked heavy without the ball and rather slow in his decision making when on it. I would not have considered it a huge issue since players with his body type often take their time to reach 100% after the preseason if it hadn't been for his overall movement. The main thing that made Carrick so reliable defensively was his ability to read the game and force through his positioning the opposition team to play the ball wide. We could get another season or two out of Matic if he manages to play similarly. But he seems to get drawn to the ball very often and this is not a good thing when your legs are gradually failing you.

I don't know if you're optimistic or not. In the end, it's how you choose to view things. I like the prospect of a McT/Pogba partnership in the midfield. But we have chosen to rely on a lot of ifs and hopes for my liking. If Fred is more consistent, if Matic has one more year in him, if the youngsters prove to be good enough, if Rash/Tony realize their full potential, if Lingard becomes "Lingod" again and so on.
Thanks for the thorough answer. I agree with you about all the ifs. We have a lot of players with great potential, but lacking in consistency.

It feels like this will be another season of high variance. One thing to be positive about however is our defense!
 

elmo

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Why are people so certain that Matic is losing his legs, or Sanchez for that matter? According to Livehealthy, you reach your physical prime in your late 20s or early 30s: Thus, they are in their prime.
https://livehealthy.chron.com/men-women-reach-physical-peak-2652.html
According to Men's Health, you reach muscle mass at 30, endurance at 22, some other sources argue that strength is at its highest at 25, but then doesn't reduce over the next 10 years or so. Endurance is often associated with people around 30, so 22 was surprisingly low to me. Energy, however is a different matter.

Thing is, there are so many keyboard warriors on here talking about players losing their physicality when they reach 30, which is absolute bollocks - there's little evidence to support that notion. I think many players deteriorate around that age because they have been playing football since they were 6, professionals since 16 and are just fed up. If a player, however, gets his act together, one might very well have an indian summer. I think Sanchez and Matic may surprise a few of us. They need certainly not be finished physically!
You've clearly not watched us much if you think Matic hasn't showed a considerable drop since he joined us.
 

gerdm07

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A midfield of Pogba, McTominay and Gomes can actually be very good. Fred I don't believe in.
After seeing clips of Gomes this is what I would like to see. He turns 18 this month and it's not unheard of talents making impacts at that age. Think Giggs, Fabregas and Rooney. Gomes looks that special. Giggs was Young player of the year when he was 18/19.
 

edcunited1878

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Fred is the X-factor in central midfield. He has to demonstrate a clear improvement within the functionality of the midfield. And that includes cutting out the sloppiness on the ball and having the composure to make good decisions with and without it.
 

Al Capone

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After seeing clips of Gomes this is what I would like to see. He turns 18 this month and it's not unheard of talents making impacts at that age. Think Giggs, Fabregas and Rooney. Gomes looks that special. Giggs was Young player of the year when he was 18/19.
I think given the opportunity and a few premier league games our youngsters will shine. Their desire to succeed for the club and their talent will win us many games.
 

Rossa

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You've clearly not watched us much if you think Matic hasn't showed a considerable drop since he joined us.
Think I watched every game. He has been very poor, but it could just be poor form. Whenever a player over 28 shows poor form, they are done on this forum. Ronaldo has been done for 6 years now.

I'm not writing him off just yet.
 

Rossa

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Because people are watching his performances. He's very slow. The whole "losing his legs" thing is irrelevant. If this is him not losing his legs, it just means that he's still slow. That isn't good. You're essentially of the opinion that we should ignore actual evidence of his pace and performances and then saying he could suddenly turn it around. Nevermind the fact that he's been rubbish for an entire 1.5 years and if I go back to what Chelsea fans were saying in his last season before he was ever linked to us, he was rubbish then too.
He's always been slow. Carrick was always slow. You don't have to be fast to be good. Ask Scholes or Pirlo. He's been in poor formn it doesn't necessarily mean he's done as some would suggest. He might be, but I doubt it's because of physical decline.
 

elmo

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Think I watched every game. He has been very poor, but it could just be poor form. Whenever a player over 28 shows poor form, they are done on this forum. Ronaldo has been done for 6 years now.

I'm not writing him off just yet.
The number of games he's actually even been decent with us can be counted on one hand since Jan 2018. He's past it, people need to stop giving players so many excuses when it's clear that he's done.