To add to this discussion, we need to change the way we look at things. Rather than just expecting a bare minimum from a manager and being glad that they achieved that, we need to look at what we think they’re actually going to be able to achieve.
Fear of changing the manager
- Thread starter Andycoleno9
- Start date
Most of the opinions really depend on who the manager is. We should never be afraid to sack the manager, there shouldn't be a compromise on playing style and results.
Problem is always with consistency in these opinions. These are heavily biased based on who the manager is.
It's a shame how we always mess up manager appointments.
Problem is always with consistency in these opinions. These are heavily biased based on who the manager is.
It's a shame how we always mess up manager appointments.
Exactly this. This is why Ole being a former player makes it so much harder for people to see the reality of how our team is playing, we cling onto positives like improving Martial and signing Bruno but the bigger picture is not promising.
It ties, I think, to this weird egotistic side of our fanbase, determined by the achievements of SAF but existing still six years after his retirement.
Put simply, we think we're better than other clubs for sticking by the manager through thick and thin, even in times of strife and plight and pestilence. We like to use examples of clubs like Chelsea and Real Madrid as examples of clubs who are 'plastic' and not real clubs whereas we're a much realer club.
I think we'd be better supporting a manager who's doing good work but we just support them all regardless - Moyes was an exception but that took time. If Ole continues to underperform - and make no mistake, he is right now - then he deserves to go and the new manager too if he's just as shite.
It'd be nice to support the club for making good decisions, not just rewarding shit ones (and that includes at board/owner/coaching level).
But that said, there's no point in hating anybody. Letting emotions get the best of us is half the problem.
Put simply, we think we're better than other clubs for sticking by the manager through thick and thin, even in times of strife and plight and pestilence. We like to use examples of clubs like Chelsea and Real Madrid as examples of clubs who are 'plastic' and not real clubs whereas we're a much realer club.
I think we'd be better supporting a manager who's doing good work but we just support them all regardless - Moyes was an exception but that took time. If Ole continues to underperform - and make no mistake, he is right now - then he deserves to go and the new manager too if he's just as shite.
It'd be nice to support the club for making good decisions, not just rewarding shit ones (and that includes at board/owner/coaching level).
But that said, there's no point in hating anybody. Letting emotions get the best of us is half the problem.
So do Watford and it‘s worked great for them.
Sacking the manager won’t really help at United, our issues are far deeper. Club needs restructuring, which would involve it not just being a cash cow for the Glazers.
We’ve had 4 managers in 7 years, so how exactly how frequently do we need to sack them to win as many trophies as Chelsea.
Your way of thinking has several flaws. In no particular order:
1. Not every manager is the same. Some do in fact need more time than others, for various reasons. If the end result is better, then it's worth the wait(up until a certain point obviously).
2. Not every manager has the ability to turn shit into gold. In fact, two of the greatest coaches in the game lack this ability: Mourinho and Pep. Especially the latter!
3. I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that "time always equals success". In most cases time would make little to no difference. That doesn't mean that you should never give a manager more time.
4. There's a whole lot happening behind the scenes that goes beyond results. This should be taken into consideration.
5. If the players aren't good enough, then it's going to take much longer to get the expected results than if you have a good team that's just 1 or 2 good signings away from being great.
1. Not every manager is the same. Some do in fact need more time than others, for various reasons. If the end result is better, then it's worth the wait(up until a certain point obviously).
2. Not every manager has the ability to turn shit into gold. In fact, two of the greatest coaches in the game lack this ability: Mourinho and Pep. Especially the latter!
3. I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that "time always equals success". In most cases time would make little to no difference. That doesn't mean that you should never give a manager more time.
4. There's a whole lot happening behind the scenes that goes beyond results. This should be taken into consideration.
5. If the players aren't good enough, then it's going to take much longer to get the expected results than if you have a good team that's just 1 or 2 good signings away from being great.
Myth 6 - a United manager can not be expected to destroy Palace at home with the most expensively assembled squad in Europe unless he's given 120 million for a RW and countless other gazillions.
Sacking managers is not an issue, having no guiding principal on what you want to achieve or the funding to do it is the issue.
I agree with some principals in the OP. Football HAS moved on since Fergie. We talk about once in a generation player talent, he was once in a generation / lifetime manager. The problem United face is and I guess the fear from fans is that it will end up being MORE of the same. There is no fear for sacking under performing managers. Remember our measure of success could be very different from the boards. There measure could well be qualify for Champions League and nothing more. Ours as fans are fundamentally different.
We have tried all sorts of managers since Fergie, all have had varying degrees of failure. To me the suggests unless you change the conditions around the manager, then we will have this situation with every manager. DOF Football should be our next big appointment outside the playing staff.
I agree with some principals in the OP. Football HAS moved on since Fergie. We talk about once in a generation player talent, he was once in a generation / lifetime manager. The problem United face is and I guess the fear from fans is that it will end up being MORE of the same. There is no fear for sacking under performing managers. Remember our measure of success could be very different from the boards. There measure could well be qualify for Champions League and nothing more. Ours as fans are fundamentally different.
We have tried all sorts of managers since Fergie, all have had varying degrees of failure. To me the suggests unless you change the conditions around the manager, then we will have this situation with every manager. DOF Football should be our next big appointment outside the playing staff.
Agree. I always find it interesting that many fans are happy with an immediate bare minimum criteria (usually top 4) being met which is more than enough to fill them with confidence in the current manager whether that is. While I won't say that having tangible targets is irrelevant I think it's just as important to understand that given our ambitions are to reach the pinnacle - whether our manager can be genuinely a great one? As surely if we want to become title challengers within the next 3 years our manager has be among the best 2-3 in the league? This doesn't seem to generally be a question. It's more about "oh we got 4th/didn't get 4th".
That’s what they’ve done with every manager post Fergie
Thanks for saying that. I was going to post something like this eventually. It’s just bollocks sacking someone who underperforms just once and it’s time to replace. Because “poch would have done a better job”. You REALLY don’t know that. Football isn’t just black and white. Would poch beat city 3 times? No Ole did that. But where Ole fails, poch might succeed. We don’t know the outcome at all. What if we get him and everything collapses again only to say “you know what. Nagelmann or X, will give us blah blah blah”.
No what this is
Yeah, somehow winning is the league talk is just fantasy at the moment. It's because of squad and also because we know Ole isn't capable of that.
For all the shit Pool got till 2015, they sacked Rodgers who came closest to winning the league and hired Klopp by October. We should have that attitude, always look for improvement.
I dont get it, haven't we been sacking managers? 
We have only kept managers for the next year because they deserved to be there on their previous results and achievements done in the previous season.
If they don't improve then they get sacked.
The same will happen with Ole.
2 games in to the season is a bit too quick to be dropping your pants and crying all over the place like a little baby. Just as much as SAF's tenure might have changed the aspect of power and loyalty to a manager - it has also changed the fanbases ability to not go through a rut and come out stronger on the other side due to only ever seeing success.
We have only kept managers for the next year because they deserved to be there on their previous results and achievements done in the previous season.
If they don't improve then they get sacked.
The same will happen with Ole.
2 games in to the season is a bit too quick to be dropping your pants and crying all over the place like a little baby. Just as much as SAF's tenure might have changed the aspect of power and loyalty to a manager - it has also changed the fanbases ability to not go through a rut and come out stronger on the other side due to only ever seeing success.
You'll always get a plethora of opinions on an issue like this. That's only natural. I'm sure fans of clubs where frequent manager changes have brought success also have similar divergent opinions. I think we all agree however, that having people who understand football set the direction and priorities of the club is an absolute requirement. It's why United have faltered since Fergie, despite trying different kinds of managers. And it's why we're unlikely to get back to the top, unless that is addressed. Cos guess what, Ed and co will just cock it up like previous times. Rinse and repeat...
New manager is always better than old manager. Once they are here for a few months it just becomes boring.
I wrote out more then this. It’s not what I was mainly saying. Crap might have accidentally deleted the first paragraph. Fecking phone
Honestly you could've added another paragraph there and it still would've made no sense.I wrote out more then this. It’s not what I was mainly saying. Crap might have accidentally deleted the first paragraph. Fecking phone
100% agree.
Ok. I'll try crayons next time.
We just have to see the experience of our past three managers.. all of them have gotten rid / sidelined some players who arguably could be useful for the team. Because they didn't fit with their vision:
LVG: RVP, Nani, Rafael, Welbeck, Zaha, Kagawa etc.
Mourinho: Blind, Depay, Mkhitaryan, Schneiderlin
Ole: Dalot, Lukaku (arguably)
I question whether players like Bruno, Fred, Martial who have become an integral part of our team would necessarily fit into another manager's plan. Because they are very specific players to be used in very specific circumstances.
LVG: RVP, Nani, Rafael, Welbeck, Zaha, Kagawa etc.
Mourinho: Blind, Depay, Mkhitaryan, Schneiderlin
Ole: Dalot, Lukaku (arguably)
I question whether players like Bruno, Fred, Martial who have become an integral part of our team would necessarily fit into another manager's plan. Because they are very specific players to be used in very specific circumstances.
A lot of people have too much respect for Ole because of his playing achievements for us to call for his sacking. That’s it basically. He’s had thicker ice than his 3 predecessors.
Surely that just means we need to be more thorough with our manager recruitment strategy?
I mean we spent £50m odd on Martial and he was one of our best players in 15/16. One of the first things Mourinho did at the club was sideline him - surely that should've set alarm bells ringing, the moment he did that. Then he spent the best part of 2 years trying to replace him with Perisic, Willian and eventually Sanchez.
We shouldn't treat the club and it's players like a blank canvas. We already have assembled a very expensive crop of players who are for the most part good players. During recruitment, they need to make clear to any candidate that these players are a key part of the clubs strategy going forward. What are you able to achieve with them?
And if he says, they don't fit in - you move on and find someone else.
Last edited:
The thought here is that nobody denies that Ole wasn't given the best platform to succeed. But do we use that as a defence for him to shield him from any criticism regarding our performances. Ideally, a top quality manager should stand out and deliver more that what is expected from the squad on paper. But we crumble down and then use the same excuse to not sack the manager. We expect the world out of our players and the board but strangely not the manager.
I don't think you can blame Fergie for that; at least, not that way. Indirectly, he and Busby are to blame: of course our fans are always looking for a new Fergie or Busby. We are conditioned to feel that the only way to achieve sustained success is for a single charismatic manager to build a dynasty at the club. That's the only way United have ever been seriously successful. It's ingrained in us; Fergie might as well have told the fans to give Moyes hell to make him feel the pressure and it wouldn't have changed much.
Hell yeah. At what point do we actually start to have expectations from a manager who, for example, sneaks into top 4 every season without ever getting close to a title challenge?
They had no hesitation in sacking Mourinho after not "backing him" in transfer market. He also got a high compensation payment.
This is the long and short of it, in my opinion. I know the majority of 'Ole out' fans agree that we have bigger problems upstairs, but they think that having other problems shouldn't stop us changing the manager if results are not going well.
Thing is, I don't think there is any manager that could succeed in this strange environment created by Ed and Co. No manager/coach can make up for their level of incompetence.
I'm not afraid of changing the manager, but as long as this lot is in charge, we'll get the same outcome, and in a year or two we'll have a divided fan base and we'll be having this same discussion again.
And yet we are afraid to call out the board and keep looking at the manager after every bad start.
Is it also possible that we hired the wrong managers 4 times?
Serious? They waited months too late and our season was over.
There is two sides to this though. Real Madrid and Chelsea often gets pulled out as examples, but they have the money cheat enabled + crazy owners. AC Milan have also changed managers more often than some people change their underwear, but that has not brought them any success in the later years either.
Its not fear, its rather a question of if its the right call. Of course if we keep performing as poorly as we have started the season, Ole should get sacked and rightly so, but he did meet (even exceed) expectations last season in terms of final results, so imo it would be a bit unfair to sack him just three games into the new campaign.
Its not fear, its rather a question of if its the right call. Of course if we keep performing as poorly as we have started the season, Ole should get sacked and rightly so, but he did meet (even exceed) expectations last season in terms of final results, so imo it would be a bit unfair to sack him just three games into the new campaign.
What fergie achieved after struggling the first 3 years is what the Neville's the Keanes allure to, give him time. If Fergie had won the league in his 2nd season no one would come out with the give him time mantra. It's a different era and more cutthroat than 35 years ago. If we could see genuine progression in style tactics etc over the first season and especially the 2nd you could give a 3rd season. All Ole does is have good and bad streaks. Let's see what the next few games bring.
I bet half of the people on this forum wouldn't even be United fans had they been born 20 years later.
No matter who the manager is, there is a bottleneck at MUFC - Woodward, Judge and the Glazers.
It'll take someone with serious skill to succeed under that ownership, someone of Fergie's quality, although even he had a competent Gill.
It'll take someone with serious skill to succeed under that ownership, someone of Fergie's quality, although even he had a competent Gill.
Yes it is very possible. We hired the wrong managers for the entire time between Sir Matt and Sir Alex.
Let’s look at the managers we hired.
Moyes - Woefully under qualified. Never showed anything at Everton that would make you think he could offer something to a top club.
LVG - Was superb a long time ago. His best days were long behind him by the time we hired him.
Mourinho - Another manager whose best days were behind him. Granted, we were probably the club that confirmed that, but outside of his last league win at Chelsea, it was clear he was a fading force since he left Madrid.
Ole - Much like Moyes, he is very under qualified and I don’t think he has much to offer to a top club. In fact all of what I said about Moyes applies to Ole as well. The difference is Ole has a better squad at his disposal than Moyes did, so we have had some good periods.
This is the point.
The Ops points only work if the board and the club have and over-arching plan headed up by a DOF/Technical director or whatever you want to call it and actually know what they are doing.
Having a managerial merry go round each year at a basket case club like United is a recipe for disaster. Can you imagine the state of our squad if we had gone through twice as many managers since Fergie left?
Also I don't know what the Op's point really is. As soon as the managers didn't get top 4 or had lost the dressing room they were gone.
Is @Andycoleno9 suggesting we should have sacked LVG or Mourinho sooner?
Or is this another thinly veiled Ole thread and you think the board should have sacked a manager who came third in his first full season in the three weeks between last season and this one? If so I'd have to disagree and say I think that may have destabilised things a touch.
Number 6 is a myth. The manager doesn't need to be a red or even English.
Number 5 isn't though. Nobody is winning a PL or CL title again at this club under Woodward n Judge.
Don’t really understand the thread. We have been changing and sacking managers as well with the difference being that we are still not back at the top.
This shows that changing managers alone in our case will only provide short term success (top 4 in manager’s first season).
What I do believe is that our board might not sack a manager who gets top 4 but doesn’t win a trophy like some other clubs do, but for that to happen we would need a manager first who gets us top 4 regularly.
Ole will also get sacked if results don’t improve. However sacking him now won’t achieve anything. The new manager shouldn’t come in ahead of such a difficult fixture list.
If there’s any “fear” it’s rather a fear of getting the wrong manager again and wasting even more money on average players because of our board’s incompetence.
For all the manager sackings in the PL over a longer period only City got it right as they have been consistently finishing in the top 4 since Mancini.
We need a manager and set targets for him to measure progress from season to season. However our board isn’t capable of doing something like that, so if we get back to the top it will be by appointing a current world class manager or by coincidence + spending more and more money until someone gets it right.
This shows that changing managers alone in our case will only provide short term success (top 4 in manager’s first season).
What I do believe is that our board might not sack a manager who gets top 4 but doesn’t win a trophy like some other clubs do, but for that to happen we would need a manager first who gets us top 4 regularly.
Ole will also get sacked if results don’t improve. However sacking him now won’t achieve anything. The new manager shouldn’t come in ahead of such a difficult fixture list.
If there’s any “fear” it’s rather a fear of getting the wrong manager again and wasting even more money on average players because of our board’s incompetence.
For all the manager sackings in the PL over a longer period only City got it right as they have been consistently finishing in the top 4 since Mancini.
We need a manager and set targets for him to measure progress from season to season. However our board isn’t capable of doing something like that, so if we get back to the top it will be by appointing a current world class manager or by coincidence + spending more and more money until someone gets it right.
Man, it's grim to be back here again. Moyes was a deer in the headlights that needed putting out it's misery. LvG... Meh, but treated appalingly. Mou, a toxic bellend that had to go. Ole is a really likeable guy and a club legend. One of his main weapons (positive psychology and belief of the SAF school) has been utterly shattered, and not particularly by his own hand. This whole situation stings more than the others combined.
Unless we get lucky, as long as the banker is calling the shots the best we can hope for is a little stability toward the upper end of our achievements of the last seven years. I genuinely can't see how to expect anything more. We're an embarrassment, the laughing stock of the football world. The common denomiator throughout the whole descent is on a PR offensive and everyone's lapping it up, though it's not entirely without merit. A total mess, and sad stuff.
Unless we get lucky, as long as the banker is calling the shots the best we can hope for is a little stability toward the upper end of our achievements of the last seven years. I genuinely can't see how to expect anything more. We're an embarrassment, the laughing stock of the football world. The common denomiator throughout the whole descent is on a PR offensive and everyone's lapping it up, though it's not entirely without merit. A total mess, and sad stuff.