Fear of changing the manager

[Lentwood]

For me a manager should be sacked when they lose sight of the plan (or don't appear to have ever had one) and/or they appear to have lost the dressing room and are therefore no longer capable of taking the team forward

What I never advocate is sacking a manager because of results alone. Results in football are far more random than many believe, with 'soft' factors such as confidence, luck and general fitness far more important than most fans ever give credit for.

Moyes had no vision for the club and deserved to go. Van Gaal for me DID have a vision but was only ever going to be here 3yrs and therefore shouldn't have been appointed in the first place. Jose might have had a vision but it certainly wasn't in the club's best interests to follow that vision and I feel the time was right to make a change.

Solskjaer does have a vision and for me, we are working towards it. Whatever happens now, we're in a 100 times better place than we were when Ole took over. I would allow Ole to carry on doing the job as long as we can keep saying that the players are playing for him and the squad is getting stronger (in terms of personnel)

This was never going to be a quick fix. I think the more sensible fans know that. For me, the last thing we need now is a new manager to come in and chase results (i.e. like Jose did). The long-term well-being of the club is far more important to me than whether we finish 5th, 4th or 3rd this year.

 

[Bestietom]

I doubt ANY manager will win the League with Woodward and Judge in charge of transfers.

 

[Siorac]

Is it also possible that we hired the wrong managers 4 times?

Caftards keep pretending as if that's some huge sample and we can't have made four poor appointments in a row. But

I have little faith in Woodward and co. to appoint the right manager, though, that much is true. In that sense it IS pointless to fire any manager; they're likely to replace him with his polar opposite every time, someone who wants entirely different types of players. But still, there is a small chance that at one point they'll get it right by accident.

 

[CG1010]

Surely that just means we need to be more thorough with our manager recruitment strategy?

I mean we spent £50m odd on Martial and he was one of our best players in 15/16. One of the first things Mourinho did at the club was sideline him - surely that should've set alarm bells ringing, the moment he did that. Then he spent the best part of 2 years trying to replace him with Perisic, Willian and eventually Sanchez.

We shouldn't treat the club and it's players like a blank canvas. We already have assembled a very expensive crop of players who are for the most part good players. During recruitment, they need to make clear to any candidate that these players are a key part of the clubs strategy going forward. What are you able to achieve with them?

And if he says, they don't fit in - you move on and find someone else.

Yes, or in other words there should be someone who is looking at long term football factors while deciding managers, looking at transfers etc. A DOF basically.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Yes it is very possible. We hired the wrong managers for the entire time between Sir Matt and Sir Alex.

Let’s look at the managers we hired.

Moyes - Woefully under qualified. Never showed anything at Everton that would make you think he could offer something to a top club.

LVG - Was superb a long time ago. His best days were long behind him by the time we hired him.

Mourinho - Another manager whose best days were behind him. Granted, we were probably the club that confirmed that, but outside of his last league win at Chelsea, it was clear he was a fading force since he left Madrid.

Ole - Much like Moyes, he is very under qualified and I don’t think he has much to offer to a top club. In fact all of what I said about Moyes applies to Ole as well. The difference is Ole has a better squad at his disposal than Moyes did, so we have had some good periods.

I'd like for us to get a progressive manager with a good CV before I decide that no manager can succeed under this board. Lvg and Mourinho are old school managers and their time has passed. Ole is also stuck in the past while also being massively under qualified. Moyes was also underqualifed

 

[Siorac]

The difference is Ole has a better squad at his disposal than Moyes did, so we have had some good periods.

That's debatable, to say the least. Moyes inherited the runaway champions, and didn't lose a single key player.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Caftards keep pretending as if that's some huge sample and we can't have made four poor appointments in a row. But

I have little faith in Woodward and co. to appoint the right manager, though, that much is true. In that sense it IS pointless to fire any manager; they're likely to replace him with his polar opposite every time, someone who wants entirely different types of players. But still, there is a small chance that at one point they'll get it right by accident.

I'd say that small chance has arrived. We'd likely sack Ole and get Pochettino whose style of play I think matches most of our players

 

[Zlatan 7]

No it is a bit creepy. The way our fanbase religiously supports every single thing about all of our managers, while criticizing every single person around him, ranges from cult like worship to paternalistic, neither of which is particularly healthy or pleasant to look at.

You’re going way too far with that, who actually does that?
It’s a bit different having an opinion that Ole could do with some time this year to get things settled down or that certain new managers won’t necessarily improve anything.

I havnt seen any of this cult like worship or paternalistic behaviour? Care to dig out some quotes?

 

[Skills]

Yes, or in other words there should be someone who is looking at long term football factors while deciding managers, looking at transfers etc. A DOF basically.

Agreed.

 

[Withnail]

Caftards keep pretending as if that's some huge sample and we can't have made four poor appointments in a row. But

I have little faith in Woodward and co. to appoint the right manager, though, that much is true. In that sense it IS pointless to fire any manager; they're likely to replace him with his polar opposite every time, someone who wants entirely different types of players. But still, there is a small chance that at one point they'll get it right by accident.

Absolutely agree. They haven't a bleedin clue. If Ole, or whoever the next manager is, turns out to be a success it will be 100% a fluke.

 

[Cloud7]

You’re going way too far with that, who actually does that?
It’s a bit different having an opinion that Ole could do with some time this year to get things settled down or that certain new managers won’t necessarily improve anything.

I havnt seen any of this cult like worship or paternalistic behaviour? Care to dig out some quotes?

This isn’t limited to Ole, it’s been the case since Moyes. Fans that point the finger at every single person vaguely connected to the club before ever being willing to admit that the manager isn’t performing at the desired level.

 

[Zlatan 7]

There is two sides to this though. Real Madrid and Chelsea often gets pulled out as examples, but they have the money cheat enabled + crazy owners. AC Milan have also changed managers more often than some people change their underwear, but that has not brought them any success in the later years either.

Its not fear, its rather a question of if its the right call. Of course if we keep performing as poorly as we have started the season, Ole should get sacked and rightly so, but he did meet (even exceed) expectations last season in terms of final results, so imo it would be a bit unfair to sack him just three games into the new campaign.

I agree with this, nice balanced sensible outlook

 

[Untd55]

A lot of these myths are born out of the idea that 'we didn't sack Ferguson so we shouldn't sack any manager.' It is seen as the 'United way', but that is nonsense. The real thing is that United do not sack managers who are successful.

We gave Sexton, Atkinson, and Docherty five seasons each (from 1972 to 1986) and none of them took Manutd to the top of English football. Time does not magically make a manager any better. Just because Ferguson ended up being so good does not mean giving time to another manager will work out that way; in fact, most will just end up being a waste of time. There is no point of delaying the inevitable.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Caftards keep pretending as if that's some huge sample and we can't have made four poor appointments in a row. But

I have little faith in Woodward and co. to appoint the right manager, though, that much is true. In that sense it IS pointless to fire any manager; they're likely to replace him with his polar opposite every time, someone who wants entirely different types of players. But still, there is a small chance that at one point they'll get it right by accident.

I know Ed gets a lot of stick and I’m not about to start defending but the mangers we’ve had in the past I’m sure fans agreed with at the time, it’s only when they goto shit that Ed starts being called useless again.

LVG - great to relaxed moyes, excellent football pedigree, managed top clubs, his own dutch philosophy, just off back of good World Cup run. Happy appointment

mourhino- quality manager wins whoever he goes, don’t like him at united but he’s a winner and he’ll sort our babies out.

Ole - united man, got the team playinG exciting football again finally, youngsters playing With a smile.

All these were excepted as decent appointments at the time I’m sure, of course one or two didn’t agree but there wasn’t mass outcry at these appointment untill they don’t work

 

[RUCK4444]

I bet half of the people on this forum wouldn't even be United fans had they been born 20 years later.

Yup. I could understand the clamour for a new manager if there was a sure thing waiting in the wings. It’s change for change sake.

No manager finishes higher than 3rd with the current squad, not last season chasing Pool and City.

It’s not even a blind loyalty to Ole that I have, just what I believe is a vision of the bigger picture, what’s available as an ‘upgrade’ and what is likely to happen with another manager carousel right now.

 

[Skills]

A lot of these myths are born out of the idea that 'we didn't sack Ferguson so we shouldn't sack any manager.' It is seen as the 'United way', but that is nonsense. The real thing is that United do not sack managers who are successful.

We gave Sexton, Atkinson, and Docherty five seasons each (from 1972 to 1986) and none of them took Manutd to the top of English football. Time does not magically make a manager any better. Just because Ferguson ended up being so good does not mean giving time to another manager will work out that way; in fact, most will just end up being a waste of time.

Correct. We only have to look at Liverpool too - look at the amount of time they gave the likes of Evans, Souness and even Rafa (who only had anything to show in his first 2 seasons).

 

[Siorac]

I know Ed gets a lot of stick and I’m not about to start defending but the mangers we’ve had in the past I’m sure fans agreed with at the time, it’s only when they goto shit that Ed starts being called useless again.

LVG - great to relaxed moyes, excellent football pedigree, managed top clubs, his own dutch philosophy, just off back of good World Cup run. Happy appointment

mourhino- quality manager wins whoever he goes, don’t like him at united but he’s a winner and he’ll sort our babies out.

Ole - united man, got the team playinG exciting football again finally, youngsters playing With a smile.

All these were excepted as decent appointments at the time I’m sure, of course one or two didn’t agree but there wasn’t mass outcry at these appointment untill they don’t work

Well, yes, I'm criticising Woodward with hindsight serving me well. But he gets paid big money to have foresight to realise in advance what is obvious now: that going from the strictly possession-based Van Gaal to dour, defensive, counter-attacking Mourinho is a bad idea. Or that Van Gaal's best days were long behind him, a decent World Cup run - in which they needed penalties against Costa Rica - aside.

Just watch us assemble all sorts of attacking players, build a very top-heavy side - and then appoint Simeone after Ole.

 

[Leftback99]

Easy when you focus only on the clubs that have had success in changing manager (who usually also happen to have the best squads).

Easy to assume you will get the 'best version' of the new manager. Take Poch, you only hear from people believing we'd get the 2015-18 version, not the one that could barely win a game by the end of his tenure.

It's just a roll of the dice, hoping you'll get a 6 when there's more chance you get a 1 or 2 and set us back a few more years.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...n-bilic-west-ham-premier-league-a8044586.html

 

[Blood Mage]

Agreed, but it's also the fact that Ole is a United legend that makes this situation even more delicate. He should never have been put in this position, but he does need to be replaced with a manager who can bring organisation and structure back to this team soon.

 

[remo]

Fear or not Ole needs to be replaced. Sooner the better. Deep inside we know that he is not going to take us far.

 

[Siorac]

I'd say that small chance has arrived. We'd likely sack Ole and get Pochettino whose style of play I think matches most of our players

I'm not convinced by Pochettino, for one simple reason: his away record in big games at Spurs was absolutely atrocious. He only won three away games in the league at Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, and United. And one of those was the 3-0 at Old Trafford when Mourinho was sulking and played Herrera as a CB. Ole already has three away wins against "traditional big six" clubs (plus more in the cups) - as far as I'm aware, not once did all six finish in the top 6 positions in the PL but that's irrelevant right now - and he's clearly not a brilliant manager.

But yes, at least his playing style would suit the current squad. That much is true.

 

[Stacks]

We had unique luck that we had Fergie. And because of that most of United fans lost sense for reality regarding managers. There are lots myths there.

Myth 1. New manager must build his team.
No, manager must work with players that he has and make them better with addition of few players. If he thinks that he can't then he simply can refuse a job. In other leagues most of clubs work in a way that manager can't even decide what players will be bought. Not saying that he don't have any input but he can't ask for specific player by name. He says that he needs striker, defender and left back and that is it.

Myth 2. Manager needs time.
Yes he does but not few seasons and which is more important; modern football doesn't work like that. For managers is the same rule as for players; swim or sink.

Myth 3. You can't sack manager every season or two because you will lose stability.
Yes, you can. All big clubs do that. And not just big clubs, every club do it. When things don't work, they change a manager. Look at Bayern, Juve, Chelsea, Inter, Barca, Real...they even sacked managers who just won them titles.

Myth 4. If you give manager time, team will be perfect after few seasons.
That simply is not true. It is like you give playing time to average player and expect from him to be world star. And in manager's world it is even worse because many other things, except his coaching qualities, must click.

My opinion is (while i agree that is great to have one Simeone, Fergie or Wenger) that football is not working like that anymore. Managers (just like players) are expandable today and we should not be afraid to sack and hire managers. That doesn't effect on stability of the club.

Point 3 is the most irritating argument just because virtually all big clubs do this and do it ruthlessly. Its the norm.
That said it is mostly ex players and wannabe managers who say this as they want to be given time if they take a job

 

[Shark]

Agreed, but it's also the fact that Ole is a United legend that makes this situation even more delicate. He should never have been put in this position, but he does need to be replaced with a manager who can bring organisation and structure back to this team soon.

His original position as caretaker was perfect, Ole did an excellent job. It was Woodward who bought into the fan hysteria after the PSG win instead of waiting until the end of the season. The likes of Gary Neville didn't help either with that cringe interview afterwards.

 

[DWelbz19]

Preach.

Our fanbase has a very dysfunctional relationship with the club managers job. It's unhealthy and a bit creepy, and holds the club back from working more ruthlessly and efficiently like our rivals.

Managers are cheap and easily replaceable in football. Players are the most expensive part about football. A managers job primarily is to get the best out of the expensive players he's already got. Not to buy more of them.

Yep. Not much to add — just that it’s something you’ve been banging on about for years and have been spot on really.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Easy when you focus only on the clubs that have had success in changing manager (who usually also happen to have the best squads).

Easy to assume you will get the 'best version' of the new manager. Take Poch, you only hear from people believing we'd get the 2015-18 version, not the one that could barely win a game by the end of his tenure.

It's just a roll of the dice, hoping you'll get a 6 when there's more chance you get a 1 or 2 and set us back a few more years.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...n-bilic-west-ham-premier-league-a8044586.html

I don't get this? Most managers get to the "end of their tenure" when they've started to underperform and ergo; get sacked. That doesn't mean they've suddenly lost it.

it's also counter-productive to what a lot of you say about Ole which is that he's getting better as he goes along and learning from mistakes, yet somehow other managers get.. worse once they have a feck-up season?

Anyway it's a good thing Liverpool didn't hire Klopp after he got sacked by Dortm.. oh, wait.

 

[redflash]

These are not myths theyre the bedrock of our identity.

We build, we develop, we stay the course.

Yes that doesn't always work but honestly fans who are constantly vying for manager to be sacked seem crazy to me.

Support the team, support the club. That's a fans job in my humble opinion.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

As long as manager hasn’t lost the dressing room, I think they can still turn things around. Mourinho had lost some of the dressing room but I do wonder what will happen if LVG was allowed to keep his job to continue 16/17 season and give him the chance until the first 2-3 months before we decide to sack him if result is still poor.

 

[hubbuh]

No it is a bit creepy. The way our fanbase religiously supports every single thing about all of our managers, while criticizing every single person around him, ranges from cult like worship to paternalistic, neither of which is particularly healthy or pleasant to look at.

Don't be ridiculous. Both hardline sides are full of numpty's, they aren't fecking creeps though ffs. You freak.

 

[RedRonaldo]

We should only offer 1 year rolling contract to new manger which will be extended every 6 months (6+6), The manager has to earn his deal, and his position at the club will get reviewed every half season. So basically his 6 months contract will only be extended for another 6 months if he is doing alright.
Every half season will be a test for him to survive at this club. If he won a major trophy, he will be awarded a full 1 year contract the next year, and more funds to build his team. Every major trophy he won will be rewarded with additional 100m transfer fund. If he won nothing, he will be only given basic 50m every summer to buy new players.
So yes, its totally on incentives basis. If the manager is shite he will be sacked without any compensation. He deserved to gain nothing from making us shite.

 

[Class of 63]

Gafferbinphobia - A fear of changing Manager.

 

[bond19821982]

Great thread. People are still living in SAF world.

Yes, we will keep sacking until we hit the jackpot. Imagine, if Liverpool had actually given Rodgers more time because he finished second the previous season.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

On the surface level a manager should only be sacked if he has lost the dressing room or the team is performing below standard when you look at the quality of players they have.

 

[Idxomer]

I think part of it is an underestimation of how good Ferguson was, thinking that time could turn a lot of managers into him.

Even the great man underestimated himself a bit at the end when he thought Moyes could fill his shoes.

 

[Andycoleno9]

@Withnail , @roonster09 . Why do you go ad hominem regarding this? I was very careful and avoided talking about our current situation in OP and regarding quality of Ole's job and does he or not deserve to be fired.
Theme of this thread goes from 2013. For every manager United fans, pundits, ex players had same "excuses" based on those myths.

And i will answer; yes, i "supported" (hate that word because supporting has different meaning for me) Jose and yes, i want Ole out. But:
1) I never had excuses for Jose like those which i mentioned above. I "supported" him because i thought that with him we can challenge for title. And while we were on that path i was for him. And i still think that we would if some things were different. For Ole i don't think that he can challenge for title even if he gets one billion for transfers
2) When Jose lost a plot i said that he deserves sacking. Because it was the best for the club. Club comes first.

 

[sammsky1]

Do you guys not have enough threads to shout OleOUT in?

Passive aggressive rabid ranting in redcafe wont make it happen any quicker

 

[monosierra]

Preach.

Our fanbase has a very dysfunctional relationship with the club managers job. It's unhealthy and a bit creepy, and holds the club back from working more ruthlessly and efficiently like our rivals.

Managers are cheap and easily replaceable in football. Players are the most expensive part about football. A managers job primarily is to get the best out of the expensive players he's already got. Not to buy more of them.

Our fanbase has little to do with managerial choice. Its all up to our de facto footballing overlord, the supremely unqualified Woodward.

 

[R'hllor]

Ever since JM, fanbase turned into some version of Trump followers, kinda scary. Specially if you look back and take examples of treatments of Martial in here during that summer etc. It was like those who aint in JM good grace = enemy of the state, on other side you have the likes of Lukaku with "you are grown ass man, deal with it" and followers protected him in the name of their supreme leader Jose. Then having a cheek and hide behing word "support", sorry to tell you but that aint supporting.

Was hoping that things would be a bit different after that classless prick got sacked but oh boi was i wrong, its similar shit just different package. The amount of things that have been said in here to create a deflective shield for Ole is just mental, why? So what if portion of fans having a go at him for making first subs at 85th min!? People express their issues with his managment and they being bombarded with "support the manager, support the manager!" "go support some other club then bye!". How about support a fecking club first and foremost you bunch of weirdos.

 

[roonster09]

@Withnail , @roonster09 . Why do you go ad hominem regarding this? I was very careful and avoided talking about our current situation in OP and regarding quality of Ole's job and does he or not deserve to be fired.
Theme of this thread goes from 2013. For every manager United fans, pundits, ex players had same "excuses" based on those myths.

And i will answer; yes, i "supported" (hate that word because supporting has different meaning for me) Jose and yes, i want Ole out. But:
1) I never had excuses for Jose like those which i mentioned above. I "supported" him because i thought that with him we can challenge for title. And while we were on that path i was for him. And i still think that we would if some things were different. For Ole i don't think that he can challenge for title even if he gets one billion for transfers
2) When Jose lost a plot i said that he deserves sacking. Because it was the best for the club. Club comes first.

I stand by what I said (and deleted).

It's easy to search for all the excuses, but it won't achieve anything.

All these opinions are just biased based on who the manager is. You wouldn't have started this thread with Jose as manager, likewise @Wumminator wouldn't have started any positive thread when Jose was the manager.

 

[youngrell]

The club needs direction before we make any more changes. Ole has been trying to lay down a direction and has tried to remove the players who do not fit into that. Tearing it up now without a proper continuation plan would be ridiculous and set us back another 2-3 years in the process.

It seems we have tried to put something in place i terms of getting academy players ready for the first team, but the first team plan is still a bit too scatter-gun and needs to be controlled by someone other than the manager and Ed Woodward and co. So when the current manager fails, we can try to have a seamless transition to the next one. The current board cannot be trusted to execute that, because they have shown remarkable incompetence with the footballing side of the club.

With regards to the fans fear of chainging the manager, there is merit to that fear. We all know too well how different things could have been for us had SAF been subjected to this modern culture of binding managers after a year or two without success. On top of that, can you imagine this bunch of players given even more power to oust a manager they don't like because we have proven they are far more important than the manager?

 

[noodlehair]

I have no fear of changing manager but the obsession on here of wanting our manager sacked just because he isn't someone else is pathetic.

Honeslty people moan about how the club is run, but if the caf was in charge we'd have a different manager every two months until we got Pochettino, even if some of them won every single game...and then when we did get Pochettino he'd have to get us relegated before anyone would start admitting he maybe isn't as great as they had envisaged...and then they'd just pick another flavour of the month and the process would start over.

Ole came in with a plan so I'm willing to support him...and the biggest issue, as it was also with Jose, is that the club are letting him down. If we change the manager, the club will do the same thing to the new one. If Ole gets to a point where he has to go then he'll have to go but I really don't know what happens then. Any manager that determined and able to succeed will not come to a club that doesn't allow them to.