Individual Brilliance vs Pattern of play

It's pretty obvious you need both to win anything, especially against teams that have both. City aren't winning everything because of Pep alone, they're winning because of Peps tactics as well as a bunch of top class talent on the field, same as all the other top clubs.

To say Ole has never had a style of play is ridiculous, look how good we were on the counter a year or so ago, that's his style of play. Problem is that everyone's found a way to neutralise it and he hasn't got anything else that works as well.

Andersons Dietician said:

There have been very few games over Oles reign where we have properly tried to press. When he first joined and then there has been the odd occasion over the seasons where we’ve done it for 5-10 minutes in game. I wouldn’t say it’s something we really do.

I think it was Ruck that mentioned the things about the pundits saying we press and it causes problems which I guess is referring to Bruno. Which I don’t class as pressing becuase no one else does anything and in reality he shouldn’t even be going there. Cavani and Bruno run about and put people under pressure. So does Fred. But it’s not a press. A press is an organised tactic that involves your team performing multiple actions which we don’t do.

We are a counter attacking team and not a particularly great one at that.

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Aye, some pundits have picked up on the fact that whilst we have been struggling, and especially in this past 10 game spell, one or two players at a time have in desperation taken it upon themselves to try and put pressure on the ball. As you say, be it Sancho or Bruno, but nothing about it has been coordinated or done as a team, so they simply get played around 9 times out of 10. To say “we are trying new pressing tactics” is way off the mark.

The only pattern of play we have is to pass to Shaw and hope he manages to channel the play into the final third with the left winger. If the left gets blocked we take three or sometimes four passes for it to reach the right where once again we hope that Wan Bissaka can build the play up to the final third with the right winger. If we are unable penetrate, we funnel the ball from flank to flank in an incredibly slow and tedious manner.

Ole's style of play is pretty much "Have at it, boys."

Yes, there was counterattacking, but there was no cohesion even in the counterattacking. There was never a third or fourth player anticipating, or at all being looked to, to complete an attack. It was always one player coming up with an idea for the next player, and so on. In the early Ole days that was fine as the players were reeling from the toxicity of Jose, but once that got found out by opposing sides there was never a plan. It was always up to Bruno or someone else to pull a rabbit out of the hat. We've just been too predictable and easily taken apart by clubs at both ends of the table.

Pattern of play will enhance individual brilliance into world class. You can still be an individually brilliant player but you can't win against team mastering pattern of play.

Dec9003 said:

When I said I hadn’t heard or seen patterns of play mentioned I meant it quite literally. Obviously as you say coaches want to work on shape and how teams move the ball etc etc but I was never under the impression that that’s what a pattern of play is. I think that’s the problem with the term though, I think it’s been used so often and in so many different ways that it no longer really means anything. I’ve spoken with England youth coaches and filmed training sessions with Leeds and never heard the phrase is all that I meant by the post.

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Yeah fair enough mate I can see from this thread that we all have our interpretation of what the phrase conveys, rather than it referring to one specific function as an asbolute.

sullydnl said:

Yep. "Patterns of play" (as I use the term anyway) means specific pre-coached combinations of play between players.

So for example when X player is on the ball Y player move here and Z player moves here, with all three knowing who X will pass to and what the player who will receive it is supposed to do with it next. You drill varieties of these patterns into the team and that allows you to play quicker football, as players are reacting to things before they happen and not having to weigh up options when they get the ball in those situations.

It doesn't even have to be overly complicated stuff, just the fact that players are doing it without hesitation because it has been pre-coached can make a difference. So it could be the difference between AWB seeing Sancho on the ball and reacting by making a run to overlap/underlap or AWB making that run before Sancho gets the ball because both he and Sancho have been coached to know that's what comes next in this sequence of play (and with the CF making a certain run to create space for AWB because he knows what's coming too). In both cases the same thing is happening but in the latter case it happens a lot quicker, which allows for more incision and gets players into more advantageous positions.

Another typical example: Shaw makes a run up the pitch, Ronaldo drops deep, Shaw plays the ball to Ronaldo. Fernandes is drilled to make an arching run, being able to time it so that he's in the correct position and body shape to comfortably receive the ball from Ronaldo while facing the goal. Shaw (knowing in advance that the ball he's playing to Ronaldo will be going to Fernandes next) is able to aim the ball to the foot that allows Ronaldo to play a one-touch pass to Fernandes. Meanwhile Pogba (playing at LW) knows he has to stay wide to keep the opposition fullback engaged and offer a secondary pass option for both Shaw and Ronaldo. Because this is pre-drilled they're able to execute that combination at speed and with the right timing. Whereas if it wasn't pre-drilled then Ronaldo might have to take an extra touch which kills the first time pass to Fernandes, or Fernandes might make the run a bit too slowly or get his body shape wrong.

Above those specific combinations though you have other structures in terms of the shape of the team, how they plan to deal with offensive/defensive transitions, etc. To my mind at least POP are just small, specific functions of that broader structure, which itself may have issues.

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This is more specific to how I interpreted the phrase but this actually makes more sense.

Bebestation said:

People have started to think pressing is only possible if all 11 players doing it at once.

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Well pressing these days is another one of those terms, that 5 people have 10 different understandings of what it is. If Bruno as the only player is aggressively running towards the player holding the ball, it is aggressively running at the ball not pressing. If Greenwood feels the need to close down the player most likely to receive the ball from the player Bruno is closing down, it isn't pressing as well (even though closer than what Bruno does). I guess, everybody should find its own definition but it doesnt make sense to argue about stuff without defining what is meant. I'll try: when there is talk about a team press, I think of a coordinated press that involves more or less the whole team but at least a significant number. It is triggered by an action that all those pressing players know. It is target-driven - it has intensity and is trying to push the ball to a player who can then be dispossessed OR (in most cases) will feel the need to go for a long ball that can then be collected by the defense.

Bruno closing down players and asking others to join him is looking great. Top image. But it is doing lots of harm to the team of it compromises the team shape.

Regulus Arcturus Black said:

Who the hell have we tried to press against anyway? we certainly weren’t pressing against Atalanta, we weren’t pressing against Villa at home, we didn’t press against City etc etc.

Is it because we tried a high press against Liverpool? And did anyone watching that genuinely think that that was a tactic trained on the coaching ground?
The truth is, we were one nil down after five minutes and two down after 13, the players started to randomly press themselves because we were such a fecking mess and massively chasing a game that had completely got away from us within the first 13 minutes.

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We tried to press against Liverpool yes. And it was suicidical but in the same time, it could be seen as an unpredicted move and therefor might have worked. Especially the 2:0 shows the issue - Bruno and Greenwood pressing very high up the pitch but when the ball goes out to Robertson, AWB is in two minds - he should either have pushed higher to challenge Robertson when he got the ball or he should have stayed back. The way it panned out shows exactly what the risks of pressing are and why you shouldn't "just do it" because everybody talks about it. Nevertheless, we tried to do it against Liverpool, if you don't see it this way, then probably the definition of pressing needs to be agreed on first.

UpWithRivers said:

Its a long time ago now but Giggs didnt play and neither did Rafael if I remember correctly. It was only the what 3rd game of the season and their were injuries/fitness issues that forced the teamheets. Its a weird game to define Sir Alex's tactics which were not like this 99 percent of the time. Either way doesnt matter. You make good arguments but its kind of pointless.

If you come into a restaurant and I get a bowl full of mush that tasted like sht and I tell my friend 'Hey they served me this pile of shite'. He cant just reply 'Oh they obviously tried to replicate Raul Alinas Wagu Beef Yoban Yaki. It obviously didnt work because the beef is from Walmarts and so is the rest of the ingredients. Plus the Chef used to be a builder till last week. On top of that all his staff came with him from the building site'
Point being you can try and sound like anything is a replication of something else. Maybe it is. Maybe its not. But either way its still shite.

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Perfect metaphore. Totally agree. The conclusion of the post you mention seems to be "just be like under SAF, be really good at everything, then you will be successful". Great advise, but I guess difficult to work on as long as you are so far away from "really good" on so many aspects.

MasterCode said:

Surprises me how so many people still don't recognise what Ole and his staff was/is trying to achieve (too much Tifo, FMS, Sky Sports, Ornstein's, and Romanos, etc. Not enough Manchester United IMO but I digress), all tactics from GenGen to Positional Play come from an idea based on yesteryear - so I find it hilarious when people say "forget United DNA stuff, we need to move on - it's old" well so was Tiki Taka till Pep brought it back. Alternatively, Bartomeu talked about modernising Barca left them in ruins today old flame Xavi walks through the door.

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The thing is there is nothing to recognise. You are acting as if Ole is trying to bring us back to where we were with SAF, being really good at lots of things, and I guess, you might be right, he is trying to do that but it it obviosly doesn't work. For this to be true, we should be able to see improvements (ever so slight ones) in every aspect of the game. But we do not. So you slamming others to see something you seem to see is a difficult starting point for the discussion. But lets see...

MasterCode said:

Said it before on here the 4-2-4 we played with McTominay and Fred was clearly trying to replicate the 424 with Anderson and Cleverly (see United 8-2 season against arsenal Nani and Giggs were HIGH! Evra and Rafael pushed up). The very similar structure just inverted forwards this time, patterns of play then were immense. Read Rene Muelesteen's book to understand exactly what the principles are. Wiel Coerver to understand how to coach players to do it - the principles are to encourage players to take initiative within a framework, players are not babied and told where to stand, etc, as one of Sir Alex's instructions was to be unpredictable (this is why IMO Ole states we don't want specialist, we want players who know how to do it all) it's not restrictive - it's a multi-framework.

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Clearly? Clearly? That is confident. The system from that famous season start in 2011/12 was not a 4-2-4. If any, it was a 4-2-4-0 and I remember reading on zonal marking back then, that they would describe it as 2-2-6 most of the time because we were attacking in great numbers and with extremely high positioned fullbacks. The match against Arsenal, I think we had Smalling being the right-back. So you saying we tried to implement that system, again, might be the case but only thing we did is to take the formation aspect out of without all of the rest. Which is stupid. That famous season start ended when multiple injuries hit us. But I think, even without it would have come to an end because it was very very risky attacking with such numbers and opponents most likely would have figured out how to hurt us. The beauty of that system was playing a very high line and be very very attacking, it wasn't too connected to specific players or their qualities, even though it certainly helped that Ando and Cleverly were very mobile.
Apart from that, I am also very sure, that "our current 4-2-4" isn't something that we are actively trying to do, it is more the result of the inexistence of specific instruction leading to Bruno joining the forward line and leaving his midfield space. Add to that us employing two strikers in Greenwood and Rashford as "wingers" then you know, why we are so disjointed. Sorry mate, I am sure you took the time to dig into materials but it seems that you either a) read them through the lens of some sort of bias ("what Ole does is not a mistake per se") or you haven't grasped the concepts completely.

And as I wrote above, if you are trying to implement a "multi-framework" then you have to work on all aspects of it. We are not great in possession. We are good on counters. We are bad at defending counters. We are bad in (coordinated) pressing. We are decent in a low block. We are alright with crosses. We are not great defending set pieces. We are not great attacking with set pieces. So where is the progress in your "multi-framework"? That is where we were when Mourinho was in charge as well more or less (guess we were worse in counters and better in defending as a low block, but the extents aren't huge).

MasterCode said:

Sir Alex instructed Rene to teach the team to know how to be compact in a Low Block, Press high, Set traps and Press in certain areas, dominate possession, and quick transitions. It wasn't a one-trick Gegen Press or Positional Play or Tiki-Taka. It was all of it. Players were coached and trusted their own initiative qas a group what defensive strategy to implement based on the opponent, and in moments which one to use. United attacked with "Pace, Power, Penetration and Unpredictability". Unpredictability was SAF big marker, it's why we could switch up to 4-2-4, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1. It didn't matter players were coached to have tactical initiative and ball mastery to understand how to trust your team mates initiative in situations and be creative in order to help our plays remain unpredictable.
I could sit here and write the whole thing but folks would just pile on the insults and negativity (probably use social media terms like "delusional"). To put it simply it's not a "One System philosophy": The team is supposed to recognise as a unit when to press high, when to press in areas transition to a low block etc within a game take initiative and integral to the philosophy "hurt" opposing teams.

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Your idea makes sense, having a robust framework is able to give the players the structure to express themselves, to be creative and unpredictable. Sounds great on the package, doesn't it. But you have to have a structure first. And it also isn't really a good idea to compare to the late SAF teams, that were FULL of seasoned winners and pros. So many leading figures, today is completely different. In terms of us not having these figures and maybe even in terms that current players need more structure than players back then.

Nobody would criticize the manager if progress in the different facets of the game were there but it isn't. Ole managed to make us into a very good counter attacking side. And last year, he was also getting some results out of opponents playing the low block. But that is it. If we want to be a top club, we have to have a game plan for any opponent. The low blocks, the pressers. We have to be good in possession and out of possession. And we aren't really.

Again, I agree, the text on the box sounds awesome, would buy the product myself. But the box is empty.

MasterCode said:

Reasons IMO why it failed:

1. None of the coaches who were implementing have successfully implemented it, Rene was the coach - Phelan was SAF second pair of eyes and more for dressing room atmosphere, for the life of me I could never understand why they never brought Rene in or even a Ricardo Moniz who also good at coaching ball mastery.
   
   
2. A lot of modern players lack initiative, and I'm beginning to think need to be told exactly where to be when, and when to implement the exact defensive structure - they hide behind systems etc.
   
   
3. Ole picked the wrong captain, he isn't a leader and certainly isn't the man to command instructions to players.
   
   
4. Mckenna is talented but unproven I do believe he will show his worth one day, somewhere - however, coaching world-class players came too soon for him.
   
   
5. Martyn Pert, improved Fred but it wasn't enough - especially in the 4-2-4 the 2 have to have "HIGH energy and be good on the ball, Fred suffers extremely on the latter - for all of Andersons limitations he was better on the ball.
   
   
6. The CBs couldn't carry the load - this is a big one! CBs have to be good enough to carry the load - especially when we chose 4-2-4 you would see full backs push up making it an almost 2-4-4 Rio and Vida could carry that load. Go back watch those old games/clips you will see it often they were last man and didn't need their hands held by Anderson and Cleverly. Yes they would shout and order them into positions but by and large they enabled their attacking players to take risks.
   
   
7. It needs to be tweaked to deal with todays modern players and opposition - just like Pep modernised Cruyffs total football and then transformed from tiki taka to positional play. The philosphy needs to evolve (this is why I felt they probably felt Mckenna was perfect young talented and new ideas).

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All good points I guess. Definitely agree that we have a "multi-framework" of reasons that it doesn't work at United.

MasterCode said:

Personally I liked the idea of having a philosophy which was unpredicatable and could switch to deal with all systems, wheter they were posession orientated like Wenger or Low Block like Boltons. Almost like a Pokemon Ditto just adaptable and fluid deal with a Gengen and a Positional Play, I really hoped they could pull it off but it's become evident they're struggling.

But don't take my word for it - if you love Manchester United there's plenty of videos, interviews, books and websites the information is out there. Research them watch the old games then watch the recent ones you will see it for yourself. It will make a change from the fan channels, ITDs, Sky Sports journalists and twitter. Do some Manchester United digging - I find it much better.

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Yeah sounds all great but just to note it: I am sure that Klopp isn't really sitting at home in feat that at some point he gets figured out because he doesn't adapt the plan. Same with Pep. Those systems are adaptable as well and if you have great players who are doing a great job executing a great plan, then your opponents can be as adaptive as they want - they will have issues. So yeah, I am with you, I have absolutely no issues to go for a generalistic approach, be adaptable, be good at lots of things. But then things have to move. Maybe not even all at once but different aspects of the game need to improve over time. And that is very difficult to see for me.

MasterCode said:

P.S. If you don't agree - fair enough, but I implore you if you're kind enough to quote me. Do not highlight certain part of my posts to take it out of context to make your argument stronger by pathetic framing, this trend is making the forum toxic and is quite a dimwitted trick and getting old. And if I had permission I would post links to the articles books and interviews that explain it better than me. Sadly you would have to Google the games and names yourself.

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I'd say a big part of that "toxicity" comes also from passive-aggressive stuff like that. Just because you spent some time reading doesn't make your opinion better or more substantial than others. Your arguments may be more refined and more convincing but that is it.

I liked your post though - you spent time and you layed out your thoughts about things. I appreciate that as it gives us material to discuss on a more interesting level than "he is just not good enough". Good to see you getting a like for the post, would have given you one as well.

One thing often overlooked is how desperate Manchester United looked against Barcelona both in 2009. and 2011. finals. Even in 2008. semifinal, we only had somewhere around 15% possession or so (I remember incredibly low figure).

That's absolutely not the way sir Alex wanted to play, he was forced to. And he was adaptable, so my guess is that he would have adapted his football sooner rather than later to become more proactive and to become capable of dominating games in that fashion.

With the ascension of Guardiola and Klopp, football has changed shape completely. Anyone remembers how we were outplayed in 2012. by Athletic Bilbao in Europa League?

The framework/style/call it whatever that Ferguson used to come out on top of Mourinho and Benitez was failing badly by the time he retired. He surely would have been capable of another reinvention, but the fact that he retired back then has Ole and his peers replicating what essentialy even Ferguson wouldn't be doing now.

Bosnian_fan said:

Even in 2008. semifinal, we only had somewhere around 15% possession or so (I remember incredibly low figure).

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around 15%

Was around 40 in the home leg. Away leg around 30 I think.

Bosnian_fan said:

One thing often overlooked is how desperate Manchester United looked against Barcelona both in 2009. and 2011. finals. Even in 2008. semifinal, we only had somewhere around 15% possession or so (I remember incredibly low figure).

That's absolutely not the way sir Alex wanted to play, he was forced to. And he was adaptable, so my guess is that he would have adapted his football sooner rather than later to become more proactive and to become capable of dominating games in that fashion.

With the ascension of Guardiola and Klopp, football has changed shape completely. Anyone remembers how we were outplayed in 2012. by Athletic Bilbao in Europa League?

The framework/style/call it whatever that Ferguson used to come out on top of Mourinho and Benitez was failing badly by the time he retired. He surely would have been capable of another reinvention, but the fact that he retired back then has Ole and his peers replicating what essentialy even Ferguson wouldn't be doing now.

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Many agree that he got it wrong in then 2009 final and a few agree that in the 2011 he got it tactically wrong. He should have won a lot more in Europe if he was that tactically great. In the PL he could do it early on and as you said later he did change and he was finding it difficult to win so easily. He had Jose to contend with and with the arrival of Pep and Klopp and now Tuchel, I am sure he would have got a top world class coach at Manchester United and not some coaches who had no experience at all. You simply cannot play 424 or W W formation these days. It makes it worse when the coach has no idea how to counter the opposition plans.
I remember a game against City with us pushing high and Craig Bellamy beating Rio for pace from the half way line and scoring.

Foxbatt said:

Many agree that he got it wrong in then 2009 final and a few agree that in the 2011 he got it tactically wrong. He should have won a lot more in Europe if he was that tactically great. In the PL he could do it early on and as you said later he did change and he was finding it difficult to win so easily. He had Jose to contend with and with the arrival of Pep and Klopp and now Tuchel, I am sure he would have got a top world class coach at Manchester United and not some coaches who had no experience at all. You simply cannot play 424 or W W formation these days. It makes it worse when the coach has no idea how to counter the opposition plans.
I remember a game against City with us pushing high and Craig Bellamy beating Rio for pace from the half way line and scoring.

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I don’t agree at all in 2011 for what it’s worth, our starting 11 that night was pretty horrendous. There was nothing he could’ve done to stop us getting an absolute pasting, that the scoreline was so low is almost the amazing thing when you look at the two sides on paper.

Looks like with ETH, United is finally getting a manager capable of implementing patterns of play. Those fans that defended Ole and rejecting the view that Patterns of play is not important for a club club has held back the club's potential for years.

There is no reason the most expensive squad in the world should not be capable of having a clear pattern of play.

Patterns of play, is tactics for that certain game, not every game is the same. City can hurt you by just keeping the ball, scum do it by ruthless finishing. Brighton must be one club that plays very good football it's the same no matter who they play they don't change.
SAF was mostly 4-4-2 and had the best players in that system, then you come up against Barca in 2 CL finals and get done, by not changing certain tactics. I just hope the new guy can play a system everyone buys into but can adapt it to compensate the opposition.

Hughie77 said:

Patterns of play, is tactics for that certain game, not every game is the same. City can hurt you by just keeping the ball, scum do it by ruthless finishing. Brighton must be one club that plays very good football it's the same no matter who they play they don't change.
SAF was mostly 4-4-2 and had the best players in that system, then you come up against Barca in 2 CL finals and get done, by not changing certain tactics. I just hope the new guy can play a system everyone buys into but can adapt it to compensate the opposition.

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Ferguson would have needed at least couple of seasons to get to Barcelona level, even if he wanted. I do believe old man would have adapted eventually, but there is absolutely nothing he could have done to prevent those losses. Patterns of play is not tactics for certain game, it is tactics for whole season or whole managerial stint. Ingrained in footballing philosophy of almost every coach.

You can't be Burnley one week, then Barcelona the next. You have to build and build over time in certain direction to eventually get there. That's why managers with clear, distinct footballing philosophy are more valued than tactical experts like Mourinho, Ancelotti, Benitez etc. nowadays.

Bosnian_fan said:

Ferguson would have needed at least couple of seasons to get to Barcelona level, even if he wanted. I do believe old man would have adapted eventually, but there is absolutely nothing he could have done to prevent those losses. Patterns of play is not tactics for certain game, it is tactics for whole season or whole managerial stint. Ingrained in footballing philosophy of almost every coach.

You can't be Burnley one week, then Barcelona the next. You have to build and build over time in certain direction to eventually get there. That's why managers with clear, distinct footballing philosophy are more valued than tactical experts like Mourinho, Ancelotti, Benitez etc. nowadays.

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Así.

Mourinho and Ancelotti have identity and aren't "tactical experts." They just aren't modern or cutting-edge managers.

One of the best patterns of play I’ve seen us play was against sheff United straight after lockdown, think martial got an hat trick that game, we tore them apart

Iker Quesadillas said:

Mourinho and Ancelotti have identity and aren't "tactical experts." They just aren't modern or cutting-edge managers.

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I think both are fine coaches if you can squad build like Madrid do. If you're basically world class at every single position and have a balanced squad, any approach can work. Maybe Ancelotti's approach is better than Pep's because he doesn't demand every player become a robot and sacrifice themselves for the team.

The only question is if it's okay to win the really big games (probably only four sides - Barca, City, Pool, Bayern at RM's level) by playing on the counter or if you actually want to dominate the ball in these games.

Do people really enjoy City's football? i found them boring and robotic, every move, every pass, every cross, even every profesional foul is by design. Growing up watching Ronaldo scoring rocket out of nowhere, Cantona chipping the ball above oppo's goalie then spread his hands like a king, Giggs terrorizing defense, Scholes lobbing ball 40 yards straight to our striker, Beckham with another freekick goal they all got me goosebump. Man United should only welcome elite talents, and those elite talents should be allowed to showcase their individual brilliance. Watching Liverpool now reminds me so much of Fergie era, the intensity, the creativity, and the freedom shown by them made me really sad because i know that's what i used to take for granted with Fergie in the past.

haru krentz said:

Do people really enjoy City's football? i found them boring and robotic, every move, every pass, every cross, even every profesional foul is by design. Growing up watching Ronaldo scoring rocket out of nowhere, Cantona chipping the ball above oppo's goalie then spread his hands like a king, Giggs terrorizing defense, Scholes lobbing ball 40 yards straight to our striker, Beckham with another freekick goal they all got me goosebump. Man United should only welcome elite talents, and those elite talents should be allowed to showcase their individual brilliance. Watching Liverpool now reminds me so much of Fergie era, the intensity, the creativity, and the freedom shown by them made me really sad because i know that's what i used to take for granted with Fergie in the past.

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agree with everything, liverpool have it spot on. desire and intensity in buckets. city are like playing the computer on fifa. back when they had bigger characters like kompany at least you could hate him. i dont care about any of their players now.

Vaultech said:

Looks like with ETH, United is finally getting a manager capable of implementing patterns of play. Those fans that defended Ole and rejecting the view that Patterns of play is not important for a club club has held back the club's potential for years.

There is no reason the most expensive squad in the world should not be capable of having a clear pattern of play.

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was ralf not supposed to be able to implement patterns of play

haru krentz said:

Do people really enjoy City's football? i found them boring and robotic, every move, every pass, every cross, even every profesional foul is by design. Growing up watching Ronaldo scoring rocket out of nowhere, Cantona chipping the ball above oppo's goalie then spread his hands like a king, Giggs terrorizing defense, Scholes lobbing ball 40 yards straight to our striker, Beckham with another freekick goal they all got me goosebump. Man United should only welcome elite talents, and those elite talents should be allowed to showcase their individual brilliance. Watching Liverpool now reminds me so much of Fergie era, the intensity, the creativity, and the freedom shown by them made me really sad because i know that's what i used to take for granted with Fergie in the past.

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Maybe you’re different but when most people say this it just feels like cope. It’s amazing football, the insistence on playing out from the back at all costs - seeing the centre halves deepen until they’re on their own byline, midfielders like Bernardo being brave enough to take the ball in the tightest of spaces surrounded by players, De Bruyne picking passes like he’s playing Score Hero. It’s as close to footballing perfection as we’ve ever seen.

haru krentz said:

Do people really enjoy City's football? i found them boring and robotic, every move, every pass, every cross, even every profesional foul is by design. Growing up watching Ronaldo scoring rocket out of nowhere, Cantona chipping the ball above oppo's goalie then spread his hands like a king, Giggs terrorizing defense, Scholes lobbing ball 40 yards straight to our striker, Beckham with another freekick goal they all got me goosebump. Man United should only welcome elite talents, and those elite talents should be allowed to showcase their individual brilliance. Watching Liverpool now reminds me so much of Fergie era, the intensity, the creativity, and the freedom shown by them made me really sad because i know that's what i used to take for granted with Fergie in the past.

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You're not going to like ETH football then.

Ten Hag's football is more direct than City's but yeah the basics are pretty much the same.. The Manchester derby would look very different from next season on..i am actually excited to be able to see Ten Hag's team vs Pep's team trying to outplay each other..

Yeah city style football is so good to watch. They move the ball with purpose not just for the sake of keeping possesion. How full backs move inside to give more options and how the players overload one side of pitch at times. Rodri is so underrated I think. They just use him and bounce passes of him to try and open up stuff going forward. So good to watch. Even at times City are good on the counter attack when teams open up against them. Mahrez through few times after quick transition from Madrid attack breaking down.
I'm hoping ETH can replicate that type of football when at the club.

Team that looks coached and well drilled.

Pep's football is rather boring for everyone who loses against him or roots for his opponents.

PepG said:

Ten Hag's football is more direct than City's but yeah the basics are pretty much the same.. The Manchester derby would look very different from next season on..i am actually excited to be able to see Ten Hag's team vs Pep's team trying to outplay each other..

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It will go very very badly.....
for the first few seasons anyway .

I prefer the good old phase of play and attack the space.

A good goalkeeper can get you 15 extra points a season.
The spine of your team has to be top class.
These were the words of the top managersand most media critics in the 90s and early 2000s.
Most systems used were 4-4-2 formation.
Most of the managers were English or Scottish, as well as most players.
You could have a debate in your local if a player was offside or not.
How things have changed with Technology, but is it really for the good of the game.
VAR, 5 Substitutes, 4th Officials.

I like quick vertical football with an emphasis on chance creation instead of possession.

Tavern in the town said:

Maybe you’re different but when most people say this it just feels like cope. It’s amazing football, the insistence on playing out from the back at all costs - seeing the centre halves deepen until they’re on their own byline, midfielders like Bernardo being brave enough to take the ball in the tightest of spaces surrounded by players, De Bruyne picking passes like he’s playing Score Hero. It’s as close to footballing perfection as we’ve ever seen.

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Trust me, there was football before Pep and all things you mentioned there have already been done by many managers before him, even by Fergie.

"seeing the centre halves deepen until they’re on their own byline"
That's basically Rio Ferdinand in his peak.

"midfielders like Bernardo being brave enough to take the ball in the tightest of spaces surrounded by players"
Giggs done it million times before him.

"De Bruyne picking passes like he’s playing Score Hero"
Scholes and Beckham will find you with their passes no matter where you are at on the field.

Seems there's gross misunderstanding that playing with individual brilliance will result in chaotic system where players overlapping with each other but when its done correctly the result would be the most attractive football you'll ever witness and football will be filled with geniuses like Maradona, Cantona, Zidane, Totti once again.

E-mal said:

You're not going to like ETH football then.

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I'll be trying to be open minded, hopefully it wont be LvG mark 2

Hansi Fick said:

Pep's football is rather boring for everyone who loses against him or roots for his opponents.

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Did you feel the same when the directness of Real Madrid tore Pep's Bayern apart?

haru krentz said:

Trust me, there was football before Pep and all things you mentioned there have already been done by many managers before him, even by Fergie.

"seeing the centre halves deepen until they’re on their own byline"
That's basically Rio Ferdinand in his peak.

"midfielders like Bernardo being brave enough to take the ball in the tightest of spaces surrounded by players"
Giggs done it million times before him.

"De Bruyne picking passes like he’s playing Score Hero"
Scholes and Beckham will find you with their passes no matter where you are at on the field.

Seems there's gross misunderstanding that playing with individual brilliance will result in chaotic system where players overlapping with each other but when its done correctly the result would be the most attractive football you'll ever witness and football will be filled with geniuses like Maradona, Cantona, Zidane, Totti once again.



I'll be trying to be open minded, hopefully it wont be LvG mark 2



Did you feel the same when the directness of Real Madrid tore Pep's Bayern apart?

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I’m sorry but you are absolutely lying to yourself if you think we ever played anything like this City team. Well coached high pressing teams were very rare in Fergie’s day but the occasions we did play them we couldn’t get out of our own half (Bielsa’s Bilbao or Pep’s Barca.)

haru krentz said:

Did you feel the same when the directness of Real Madrid tore Pep's Bayern apart?

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I think it's the losing 0:4 part that annoyed me rather than the style of football, tbh. Noone likes their team's tactics when they are losing.
That losing badly while having dominance of possession makes witnessing the loss extra annoying is something against which you have to weigh the much more numerous souvereign and satisfying wins while dominating possession.

haru krentz said:

Do people really enjoy City's football? i found them boring and robotic, every move, every pass, every cross, even every profesional foul is by design. Growing up watching Ronaldo scoring rocket out of nowhere, Cantona chipping the ball above oppo's goalie then spread his hands like a king, Giggs terrorizing defense, Scholes lobbing ball 40 yards straight to our striker, Beckham with another freekick goal they all got me goosebump. Man United should only welcome elite talents, and those elite talents should be allowed to showcase their individual brilliance. Watching Liverpool now reminds me so much of Fergie era, the intensity, the creativity, and the freedom shown by them made me really sad because i know that's what i used to take for granted with Fergie in the past.

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How many times do you see a Liverpool player bang one from 30 yards, or how often do you see a Liverpool attacker try to take on 3/4 players? Liverpool choreograph their attacks just as much as City's, their football is just more vertical. That's all.
Football has evolved. Liverpool and City are the best because they plan and execute their attacks again and again, they are the two best drilled teams on the planet. Just look at Liverpool's pressing, you think it's just guys chasing the ball endlessly? They practice the shit out of it. And that's what Ten Hag is going to do.

Pep's football is not boring when you have a lot of world class players in the line up. But if all teams with "normal" players tried to play like that, the league would be unwatchable.

Tavern in the town said:

I’m sorry but you are absolutely lying to yourself if you think we ever played anything like this City team. Well coached high pressing teams were very rare in Fergie’s day but the occasions we did play them we couldn’t get out of our own half (Bielsa’s Bilbao or Pep’s Barca.)

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That Bilbao game was the biggest measure to highlight the difference in tactical coaching between the PL and the rest of Europe at the time, and was also why England's golden generation won absolutely nothing.

Charles Miller said:

Pep's football is not boring when you have a lot of world class players in the line up. But if all teams with "normal" players tried to play like that, the league would be unwatchable.

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Most of the goals would be from defenders giving it straight to attackers. Even with all the quality City have they still gave the ball to Madrid in dangerous areas a good few times last night

P-Nut said:

That Bilbao game was the biggest measure to highlight the difference in tactical coaching between the PL and the rest of Europe at the time, and was also why England's golden generation won absolutely nothing.

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If you ever watch highlights of football pre 2010 it almost feels like a different game, teams were so open and far from compact compared to today. The other day I came across the below.

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Look at the time he has to pick these passes, he even takes a run up for some of them for Christ’s sake. Bearing in mind these are Champions League teams too, today bottom half PL teams would close the space much quicker let alone Champions League sides.