Individual Brilliance vs Pattern of play

[tenpoless]

Passion vs Organization
Wanting it more vs Do as the manager say you lazy bastards, whether you want it or not
Express yourself vs Dont be stupid, stupid

 

[L_O_S_T]

Reasons IMO why it failed:

1. None of the coaches who were implementing have successfully implemented it, Rene was the coach - Phelan was SAF second pair of eyes and more for dressing room atmosphere, for the life of me I could never understand why they never brought Rene in or even a Ricardo Moniz who also good at coaching ball mastery.
   
   
2. A lot of modern players lack initiative, and I'm beginning to think need to be told exactly where to be when, and when to implement the exact defensive structure - they hide behind systems etc.
   
   
3. Ole picked the wrong captain, he isn't a leader and certainly isn't the man to command instructions to players.
   
   
4. Mckenna is talented but unproven I do believe he will show his worth one day, somewhere - however, coaching world-class players came too soon for him.
   
   
5. Martyn Pert, improved Fred but it wasn't enough - especially in the 4-2-4 the 2 have to have "HIGH energy and be good on the ball, Fred suffers extremely on the latter - for all of Andersons limitations he was better on the ball.
   
   
6. The CBs couldn't carry the load - this is a big one! CBs have to be good enough to carry the load - especially when we chose 4-2-4 you would see full backs push up making it an almost 2-4-4 Rio and Vida could carry that load. Go back watch those old games/clips you will see it often they were last man and didn't need their hands held by Anderson and Cleverly. Yes they would shout and order them into positions but by and large they enabled their attacking players to take risks.
   
   
7. It needs to be tweaked to deal with todays modern players and opposition - just like Pep modernised Cruyffs total football and then transformed from tiki taka to positional play. The philosphy needs to evolve (this is why I felt they probably felt Mckenna was perfect young talented and new ideas).

Great list of points there, I have the same sentiments regarding most of your points. Interesting to note the unpredictability philosophy that you mentioned, shouldn't unpredictability/creativity be unleashed after establishing a strong core foundation and strategy? Once everyone has full understanding and able to execute the basics to the tee, then only we should try to allow some creativity within the framework. The strong core foundation and strategy is also something to fall back from in matches or periods where we need to keep the game closed or when the unpredictability does not managed to come through.

But it seems nowadays the team is being allowed to be too unpredictable without a strong core strategy and without even mastering the basics (i.e. essentially too much freedom). No one is doing the dirty work which needs to be done, no one knows what each other is doing, whilst others just keep trying to win games on their own. Which explains why we are a mess when it comes to building up play but somehow able to find moments of brilliance if our top players suddenly "click".

 

[Cheimoon]

It's not one or the other.

I don't like the term pattern of play. Makes it sound like art. Makes it seem like just an aesthetic. I much prefer the term system. Not to be confused with formation, which people conflate time and time again.

The most succinct way I can summarise it is as follows:

They're different things though, as far as I know. System is pretty close to formation (like 4-3-3), but I think more about individual positioning, like in your quote. Tactics refers to the overall approach (counterattacking, pressing, etc.). Phases of play are typical moments in a game (attack, defence, transition to attack, transition to defence). Finally, patterns of play are ways to deal with individual situations (e.g., if the full back has the ball in a build-up situation, then ..., and then ..., etc.).

Happy to be corrected here though.

 

[passtheball]

Level of delusion of some Ole in guys is/was amazing.

IS. Very much IS.

They are all basically absent from the Caf right now, but you know they will be back once we beat Watford, lose to Chelsea, and get a draw against Arsenal. They will proclaim that United have turned a corner. The 0-5 and 0-2 home defeats will be called "blips", and when we limp into the top 4 that will be called progress.

The sad part is that the Glazers will agree.

 

[AjaxCunian]

UnitedSofa, Meamth, Wumminator have really shown themselves.

 

[Zen86]

Surprises me how so many people still don't recognise what Ole and his staff was/is trying to achieve (too much Tifo, FMS, Sky Sports, Ornstein's, and Romanos, etc. Not enough Manchester United IMO but I digress), all tactics from GenGen to Positional Play come from an idea based on yesteryear - so I find it hilarious when people say "forget United DNA stuff, we need to move on - it's old" well so was Tiki Taka till Pep brought it back. Alternatively, Bartomeu talked about modernising Barca left them in ruins today old flame Xavi walks through the door.

Said it before on here the 4-2-4 we played with McTominay and Fred was clearly trying to replicate the 424 with Anderson and Cleverly (see United 8-2 season against arsenal Nani and Giggs were HIGH! Evra and Rafael pushed up). The very similar structure just inverted forwards this time, patterns of play then were immense. Read Rene Muelesteen's book to understand exactly what the principles are. Wiel Coerver to understand how to coach players to do it - the principles are to encourage players to take initiative within a framework, players are not babied and told where to stand, etc, as one of Sir Alex's instructions was to be unpredictable (this is why IMO Ole states we don't want specialist, we want players who know how to do it all) it's not restrictive - it's a multi-framework.

Sir Alex instructed Rene to teach the team to know how to be compact in a Low Block, Press high, Set traps and Press in certain areas, dominate possession, and quick transitions. It wasn't a one-trick Gegen Press or Positional Play or Tiki-Taka. It was all of it. Players were coached and trusted their own initiative qas a group what defensive strategy to implement based on the opponent, and in moments which one to use. United attacked with "Pace, Power, Penetration and Unpredictability". Unpredictability was SAF big marker, it's why we could switch up to 4-2-4, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1. It didn't matter players were coached to have tactical initiative and ball mastery to understand how to trust your team mates initiative in situations and be creative in order to help our plays remain unpredictable.
I could sit here and write the whole thing but folks would just pile on the insults and negativity (probably use social media terms like "delusional"). To put it simply it's not a "One System philosophy": The team is supposed to recognise as a unit when to press high, when to press in areas transition to a low block etc within a game take initiative and integral to the philosophy "hurt" opposing teams.

Reasons IMO why it failed:

1. None of the coaches who were implementing have successfully implemented it, Rene was the coach - Phelan was SAF second pair of eyes and more for dressing room atmosphere, for the life of me I could never understand why they never brought Rene in or even a Ricardo Moniz who also good at coaching ball mastery.
   
   
2. A lot of modern players lack initiative, and I'm beginning to think need to be told exactly where to be when, and when to implement the exact defensive structure - they hide behind systems etc.
   
   
3. Ole picked the wrong captain, he isn't a leader and certainly isn't the man to command instructions to players.
   
   
4. Mckenna is talented but unproven I do believe he will show his worth one day, somewhere - however, coaching world-class players came too soon for him.
   
   
5. Martyn Pert, improved Fred but it wasn't enough - especially in the 4-2-4 the 2 have to have "HIGH energy and be good on the ball, Fred suffers extremely on the latter - for all of Andersons limitations he was better on the ball.
   
   
6. The CBs couldn't carry the load - this is a big one! CBs have to be good enough to carry the load - especially when we chose 4-2-4 you would see full backs push up making it an almost 2-4-4 Rio and Vida could carry that load. Go back watch those old games/clips you will see it often they were last man and didn't need their hands held by Anderson and Cleverly. Yes they would shout and order them into positions but by and large they enabled their attacking players to take risks.
   
   
7. It needs to be tweaked to deal with todays modern players and opposition - just like Pep modernised Cruyffs total football and then transformed from tiki taka to positional play. The philosphy needs to evolve (this is why I felt they probably felt Mckenna was perfect young talented and new ideas).

Personally I liked the idea of having a philosophy which was unpredicatable and could switch to deal with all systems, wheter they were posession orientated like Wenger or Low Block like Boltons. Almost like a Pokemon Ditto just adaptable and fluid deal with a Gengen and a Positional Play, I really hoped they could pull it off but it's become evident they're struggling.

But don't take my word for it - if you love Manchester United there's plenty of videos, interviews, books and websites the information is out there. Research them watch the old games then watch the recent ones you will see it for yourself. It will make a change from the fan channels, ITDs, Sky Sports journalists and twitter. Do some Manchester United digging - I find it much better.

P.S. If you don't agree - fair enough, but I implore you if you're kind enough to quote me. Do not highlight certain part of my posts to take it out of context to make your argument stronger by pathetic framing, this trend is making the forum toxic and is quite a dimwitted trick and getting old. And if I had permission I would post links to the articles books and interviews that explain it better than me. Sadly you would have to Google the games and names yourself.

Great post.

The coaching and management team aren’t a bunch of clueless idiots, far from it. Failure should just be seen for what it is, failure.

 

[Roboc7]

Great post.

The coaching and management team aren’t a bunch of clueless idiots, far from it. Failure should just be seen for what it is, failure.

At this level Ole is clueless and the coaches are completely unproven which also suggests Ole is out of his depth for picking them all.

If Ole goes back to manage in Norway he won’t be clueless as that’s a level he’s more comfortable with.

The simple fact is we appointed a manager with a CV that should have meant he was a million miles from even be considered as Utd manager. There has the been this blind faith, hope or assumption that despite all logic he would actually be a manager capable of competing at an elite level.

 

[roonster09]

UnitedSofa, Meamth, Wumminator have really shown themselves.

@UnitedSofa @meamth @Wumminator

You should tag them when you talk about them.

 

[Bebestation]

Surprises me how so many people still don't recognise what Ole and his staff was/is trying to achieve (too much Tifo, FMS, Sky Sports, Ornstein's, and Romanos, etc. Not enough Manchester United IMO but I digress), all tactics from GenGen to Positional Play come from an idea based on yesteryear - so I find it hilarious when people say "forget United DNA stuff, we need to move on - it's old" well so was Tiki Taka till Pep brought it back. Alternatively, Bartomeu talked about modernising Barca left them in ruins today old flame Xavi walks through the door.

Said it before on here the 4-2-4 we played with McTominay and Fred was clearly trying to replicate the 424 with Anderson and Cleverly (see United 8-2 season against arsenal Nani and Giggs were HIGH! Evra and Rafael pushed up). The very similar structure just inverted forwards this time, patterns of play then were immense. Read Rene Muelesteen's book to understand exactly what the principles are. Wiel Coerver to understand how to coach players to do it - the principles are to encourage players to take initiative within a framework, players are not babied and told where to stand, etc, as one of Sir Alex's instructions was to be unpredictable (this is why IMO Ole states we don't want specialist, we want players who know how to do it all) it's not restrictive - it's a multi-framework.

Sir Alex instructed Rene to teach the team to know how to be compact in a Low Block, Press high, Set traps and Press in certain areas, dominate possession, and quick transitions. It wasn't a one-trick Gegen Press or Positional Play or Tiki-Taka. It was all of it. Players were coached and trusted their own initiative qas a group what defensive strategy to implement based on the opponent, and in moments which one to use. United attacked with "Pace, Power, Penetration and Unpredictability". Unpredictability was SAF big marker, it's why we could switch up to 4-2-4, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1. It didn't matter players were coached to have tactical initiative and ball mastery to understand how to trust your team mates initiative in situations and be creative in order to help our plays remain unpredictable.
I could sit here and write the whole thing but folks would just pile on the insults and negativity (probably use social media terms like "delusional"). To put it simply it's not a "One System philosophy": The team is supposed to recognise as a unit when to press high, when to press in areas transition to a low block etc within a game take initiative and integral to the philosophy "hurt" opposing teams.

Reasons IMO why it failed:

1. None of the coaches who were implementing have successfully implemented it, Rene was the coach - Phelan was SAF second pair of eyes and more for dressing room atmosphere, for the life of me I could never understand why they never brought Rene in or even a Ricardo Moniz who also good at coaching ball mastery.
   
   
2. A lot of modern players lack initiative, and I'm beginning to think need to be told exactly where to be when, and when to implement the exact defensive structure - they hide behind systems etc.
   
   
3. Ole picked the wrong captain, he isn't a leader and certainly isn't the man to command instructions to players.
   
   
4. Mckenna is talented but unproven I do believe he will show his worth one day, somewhere - however, coaching world-class players came too soon for him.
   
   
5. Martyn Pert, improved Fred but it wasn't enough - especially in the 4-2-4 the 2 have to have "HIGH energy and be good on the ball, Fred suffers extremely on the latter - for all of Andersons limitations he was better on the ball.
   
   
6. The CBs couldn't carry the load - this is a big one! CBs have to be good enough to carry the load - especially when we chose 4-2-4 you would see full backs push up making it an almost 2-4-4 Rio and Vida could carry that load. Go back watch those old games/clips you will see it often they were last man and didn't need their hands held by Anderson and Cleverly. Yes they would shout and order them into positions but by and large they enabled their attacking players to take risks.
   
   
7. It needs to be tweaked to deal with todays modern players and opposition - just like Pep modernised Cruyffs total football and then transformed from tiki taka to positional play. The philosphy needs to evolve (this is why I felt they probably felt Mckenna was perfect young talented and new ideas).

Personally I liked the idea of having a philosophy which was unpredicatable and could switch to deal with all systems, wheter they were posession orientated like Wenger or Low Block like Boltons. Almost like a Pokemon Ditto just adaptable and fluid deal with a Gengen and a Positional Play, I really hoped they could pull it off but it's become evident they're struggling.

But don't take my word for it - if you love Manchester United there's plenty of videos, interviews, books and websites the information is out there. Research them watch the old games then watch the recent ones you will see it for yourself. It will make a change from the fan channels, ITDs, Sky Sports journalists and twitter. Do some Manchester United digging - I find it much better.

P.S. If you don't agree - fair enough, but I implore you if you're kind enough to quote me. Do not highlight certain part of my posts to take it out of context to make your argument stronger by pathetic framing, this trend is making the forum toxic and is quite a dimwitted trick and getting old. And if I had permission I would post links to the articles books and interviews that explain it better than me. Sadly you would have to Google the games and names yourself.

This sounds good.

Whilst I'm not sure how accurate it is because I haven't read any proof - it does sound true to some level.

I think the one thing that really sticks out for me as some proof in this is the last minute goals.

We started getting them in with Ole under our manager almost instantly compared to Van Gaal or Mourinho.

It could be the players adapting the tactics in their own heads that enabled us to do this as a team but maybe not 'control' the game to the level that a team oriented tactic brings out (like through Pep Guardiola).

I think another thing that I've noticed is that people think that we are not a pressing team - which is right but also kind of wrong. 11 players are not pressing as a group, but individually they do decide by themselves if when and when not to.

I was watching a video - United Vs Liverpool; we were playing 4231 and Ronaldo wasn't in his right position or deciding to press, Bruno is usually the one to press forward (to create a 2 man block on 2 defenders) but didnt to open space on the midfielders so was sitting deeper - so Greenwood looked at the situation and realised he had to press. However he had to press both Robertson and Van Dijk with his run since he was placed as a RW - which he didn't do correctly (running straight at VD) and Van Dijk managed to pass the ball to Robertson in acres of space. Wan Bissaka then went in to press (again making his own tactical decision) which Robertson beat, leaving the whole defence shifting right and open with Liverpool scoring a goal.


Top and interesting post. Would give it a like.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Surprises me how so many people still don't recognise what Ole and his staff was/is trying to achieve (too much Tifo, FMS, Sky Sports, Ornstein's, and Romanos, etc. Not enough Manchester United IMO but I digress), all tactics from GenGen to Positional Play come from an idea based on yesteryear - so I find it hilarious when people say "forget United DNA stuff, we need to move on - it's old" well so was Tiki Taka till Pep brought it back. Alternatively, Bartomeu talked about modernising Barca left them in ruins today old flame Xavi walks through the door.

Said it before on here the 4-2-4 we played with McTominay and Fred was clearly trying to replicate the 424 with Anderson and Cleverly (see United 8-2 season against arsenal Nani and Giggs were HIGH! Evra and Rafael pushed up). The very similar structure just inverted forwards this time, patterns of play then were immense. Read Rene Muelesteen's book to understand exactly what the principles are. Wiel Coerver to understand how to coach players to do it - the principles are to encourage players to take initiative within a framework, players are not babied and told where to stand, etc, as one of Sir Alex's instructions was to be unpredictable (this is why IMO Ole states we don't want specialist, we want players who know how to do it all) it's not restrictive - it's a multi-framework.

Sir Alex instructed Rene to teach the team to know how to be compact in a Low Block, Press high, Set traps and Press in certain areas, dominate possession, and quick transitions. It wasn't a one-trick Gegen Press or Positional Play or Tiki-Taka. It was all of it. Players were coached and trusted their own initiative qas a group what defensive strategy to implement based on the opponent, and in moments which one to use. United attacked with "Pace, Power, Penetration and Unpredictability". Unpredictability was SAF big marker, it's why we could switch up to 4-2-4, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1. It didn't matter players were coached to have tactical initiative and ball mastery to understand how to trust your team mates initiative in situations and be creative in order to help our plays remain unpredictable.
I could sit here and write the whole thing but folks would just pile on the insults and negativity (probably use social media terms like "delusional"). To put it simply it's not a "One System philosophy": The team is supposed to recognise as a unit when to press high, when to press in areas transition to a low block etc within a game take initiative and integral to the philosophy "hurt" opposing teams.

Reasons IMO why it failed:

1. None of the coaches who were implementing have successfully implemented it, Rene was the coach - Phelan was SAF second pair of eyes and more for dressing room atmosphere, for the life of me I could never understand why they never brought Rene in or even a Ricardo Moniz who also good at coaching ball mastery.
   
   
2. A lot of modern players lack initiative, and I'm beginning to think need to be told exactly where to be when, and when to implement the exact defensive structure - they hide behind systems etc.
   
   
3. Ole picked the wrong captain, he isn't a leader and certainly isn't the man to command instructions to players.
   
   
4. Mckenna is talented but unproven I do believe he will show his worth one day, somewhere - however, coaching world-class players came too soon for him.
   
   
5. Martyn Pert, improved Fred but it wasn't enough - especially in the 4-2-4 the 2 have to have "HIGH energy and be good on the ball, Fred suffers extremely on the latter - for all of Andersons limitations he was better on the ball.
   
   
6. The CBs couldn't carry the load - this is a big one! CBs have to be good enough to carry the load - especially when we chose 4-2-4 you would see full backs push up making it an almost 2-4-4 Rio and Vida could carry that load. Go back watch those old games/clips you will see it often they were last man and didn't need their hands held by Anderson and Cleverly. Yes they would shout and order them into positions but by and large they enabled their attacking players to take risks.
   
   
7. It needs to be tweaked to deal with todays modern players and opposition - just like Pep modernised Cruyffs total football and then transformed from tiki taka to positional play. The philosphy needs to evolve (this is why I felt they probably felt Mckenna was perfect young talented and new ideas).

Personally I liked the idea of having a philosophy which was unpredicatable and could switch to deal with all systems, wheter they were posession orientated like Wenger or Low Block like Boltons. Almost like a Pokemon Ditto just adaptable and fluid deal with a Gengen and a Positional Play, I really hoped they could pull it off but it's become evident they're struggling.

But don't take my word for it - if you love Manchester United there's plenty of videos, interviews, books and websites the information is out there. Research them watch the old games then watch the recent ones you will see it for yourself. It will make a change from the fan channels, ITDs, Sky Sports journalists and twitter. Do some Manchester United digging - I find it much better.

P.S. If you don't agree - fair enough, but I implore you if you're kind enough to quote me. Do not highlight certain part of my posts to take it out of context to make your argument stronger by pathetic framing, this trend is making the forum toxic and is quite a dimwitted trick and getting old. And if I had permission I would post links to the articles books and interviews that explain it better than me. Sadly you would have to Google the games and names yourself.

Its a long time ago now but Giggs didnt play and neither did Rafael if I remember correctly. It was only the what 3rd game of the season and their were injuries/fitness issues that forced the teamheets. Its a weird game to define Sir Alex's tactics which were not like this 99 percent of the time. Either way doesnt matter. You make good arguments but its kind of pointless.

If you come into a restaurant and I get a bowl full of mush that tasted like sht and I tell my friend 'Hey they served me this pile of shite'. He cant just reply 'Oh they obviously tried to replicate Raul Alinas Wagu Beef Yoban Yaki. It obviously didnt work because the beef is from Walmarts and so is the rest of the ingredients. Plus the Chef used to be a builder till last week. On top of that all his staff came with him from the building site'
Point being you can try and sound like anything is a replication of something else. Maybe it is. Maybe its not. But either way its still shite.

 

[Champ]

Surprises me how so many people still don't recognise what Ole and his staff was/is trying to achieve (too much Tifo, FMS, Sky Sports, Ornstein's, and Romanos, etc. Not enough Manchester United IMO but I digress), all tactics from GenGen to Positional Play come from an idea based on yesteryear - so I find it hilarious when people say "forget United DNA stuff, we need to move on - it's old" well so was Tiki Taka till Pep brought it back. Alternatively, Bartomeu talked about modernising Barca left them in ruins today old flame Xavi walks through the door.

Said it before on here the 4-2-4 we played with McTominay and Fred was clearly trying to replicate the 424 with Anderson and Cleverly (see United 8-2 season against arsenal Nani and Giggs were HIGH! Evra and Rafael pushed up). The very similar structure just inverted forwards this time, patterns of play then were immense. Read Rene Muelesteen's book to understand exactly what the principles are. Wiel Coerver to understand how to coach players to do it - the principles are to encourage players to take initiative within a framework, players are not babied and told where to stand, etc, as one of Sir Alex's instructions was to be unpredictable (this is why IMO Ole states we don't want specialist, we want players who know how to do it all) it's not restrictive - it's a multi-framework.

Sir Alex instructed Rene to teach the team to know how to be compact in a Low Block, Press high, Set traps and Press in certain areas, dominate possession, and quick transitions. It wasn't a one-trick Gegen Press or Positional Play or Tiki-Taka. It was all of it. Players were coached and trusted their own initiative qas a group what defensive strategy to implement based on the opponent, and in moments which one to use. United attacked with "Pace, Power, Penetration and Unpredictability". Unpredictability was SAF big marker, it's why we could switch up to 4-2-4, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1. It didn't matter players were coached to have tactical initiative and ball mastery to understand how to trust your team mates initiative in situations and be creative in order to help our plays remain unpredictable.
I could sit here and write the whole thing but folks would just pile on the insults and negativity (probably use social media terms like "delusional"). To put it simply it's not a "One System philosophy": The team is supposed to recognise as a unit when to press high, when to press in areas transition to a low block etc within a game take initiative and integral to the philosophy "hurt" opposing teams.

Reasons IMO why it failed:

1. None of the coaches who were implementing have successfully implemented it, Rene was the coach - Phelan was SAF second pair of eyes and more for dressing room atmosphere, for the life of me I could never understand why they never brought Rene in or even a Ricardo Moniz who also good at coaching ball mastery.
   
   
2. A lot of modern players lack initiative, and I'm beginning to think need to be told exactly where to be when, and when to implement the exact defensive structure - they hide behind systems etc.
   
   
3. Ole picked the wrong captain, he isn't a leader and certainly isn't the man to command instructions to players.
   
   
4. Mckenna is talented but unproven I do believe he will show his worth one day, somewhere - however, coaching world-class players came too soon for him.
   
   
5. Martyn Pert, improved Fred but it wasn't enough - especially in the 4-2-4 the 2 have to have "HIGH energy and be good on the ball, Fred suffers extremely on the latter - for all of Andersons limitations he was better on the ball.
   
   
6. The CBs couldn't carry the load - this is a big one! CBs have to be good enough to carry the load - especially when we chose 4-2-4 you would see full backs push up making it an almost 2-4-4 Rio and Vida could carry that load. Go back watch those old games/clips you will see it often they were last man and didn't need their hands held by Anderson and Cleverly. Yes they would shout and order them into positions but by and large they enabled their attacking players to take risks.
   
   
7. It needs to be tweaked to deal with todays modern players and opposition - just like Pep modernised Cruyffs total football and then transformed from tiki taka to positional play. The philosphy needs to evolve (this is why I felt they probably felt Mckenna was perfect young talented and new ideas).

Personally I liked the idea of having a philosophy which was unpredicatable and could switch to deal with all systems, wheter they were posession orientated like Wenger or Low Block like Boltons. Almost like a Pokemon Ditto just adaptable and fluid deal with a Gengen and a Positional Play, I really hoped they could pull it off but it's become evident they're struggling.

But don't take my word for it - if you love Manchester United there's plenty of videos, interviews, books and websites the information is out there. Research them watch the old games then watch the recent ones you will see it for yourself. It will make a change from the fan channels, ITDs, Sky Sports journalists and twitter. Do some Manchester United digging - I find it much better.

P.S. If you don't agree - fair enough, but I implore you if you're kind enough to quote me. Do not highlight certain part of my posts to take it out of context to make your argument stronger by pathetic framing, this trend is making the forum toxic and is quite a dimwitted trick and getting old. And if I had permission I would post links to the articles books and interviews that explain it better than me. Sadly you would have to Google the games and names yourself.

I'm confused, why single out Pert for Freds improvement??
Other than speaking the same Language I don't think Pert really had that much of a say in how Fred played the game!!?

Whilst I feel you make some good points here, I also feel you make some basic points without elaborating, for example McKenna is unproven, unproven in what exactly??

I still don't understand the whole 424 business either, I don't recall Sir Alex or Ole ever playing a static 424, it's a fluid 4231 under Ole majority of the time, the 8-2 V Arsenal was a fluid 4231, formations change during different moments of play, but it was never a 424, that would indicate 4 strikers or forward players which we didn't have and Ole certainly doesn't have.

But I agree with you massively regarding Tifo etc, far to many people make decisions based on crappy videos made by Tifo or on stats on FM.

 

[arnie_ni]

Honestly it’s like many here don’t watch the games enough to see how we set up.

How do we set up now ruck? What do you make of it 8 months later

 

[RUCK4444]

How do we set up now ruck? What do you make of it 8 months later

8 months later it’s a hell of a lot worse. We’ve gone backwards this season massively.

Previously for large periods under Ole we created bags of chances and scored as many goals as almost any team in the league. That was not purely individual brilliant (as proven by this season where we have better players and have gone backwards.)

 

[arnie_ni]

8 months later it’s a hell of a lot worse. We’ve gone backwards this season massively.

Previously for large periods under Ole we created bags of chances and scored as many goals as almost any team in the league. That was not purely individual brilliant (as proven by this season where we have better players and have gone backwards.)

How come we've stopped even creating all of a sudden let alone couldn't defend against a team of 90 year old grannies, do you think.

Whats changed?

 

[RUCK4444]

How come we've stopped even creating all of a sudden let alone couldn't defend against a team of 90 year old grannies, do you think.

Whats changed?

I think Ole has struggled to integrate the players we bought, three for the starting 11, on top of that he tried to start implementing a press - the combination of the two has made us disjointed and has disconnected the attack from the rest of the team, as we’ve seen time and again in games this season. Half pressing and leaving a huge gap between attack and midfield.

Results wise the defending on top of the above has dropped off a cliff, especially Maguire and Shaw.

The poor defending has made them concentrate on defensive tactics and formation. Ole and his coaches entirely to blame for not being able to transition to a pressing side and for not being able to cope with the integration of the new players.

 

[Foxbatt]

I think the word patterns of play is confusing it. It's a lot of things combined and to make it without a lot of words, pattern of play is used.
We have world class players and they are going to make a difference in lots of instances. But when they come up against very good teams with very good coaching then they will fail too.
Against other world class players with world class coaching they will fail more.
The City 2nd goal is the typical example of this. I remember under SAF we used to score goals like this.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Also last season was nowhere near good enough for a team that wants to win the Prem or CL. We have regressed but lets not rewrite history and make it seem like we were some fantastic team that just collapsed at the end of the season. We had quite a good spell inbetween our horrible start and and bad ending, but should have further progressed from that. Our shambolic CL group is just one example of how we were still far away.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I think Ole has struggled to integrate the players we bought, three for the starting 11, on top of that he tried to start implementing a press.

No surprise to see this regurgitated here.

Who the feck have we tried a high press against? This has become the new excuse for those who were backing Ole and his coaching to the hilt over the past seasons, that suddenly the big problem is him changing tactics and “trying to implement a high press”.
We play the same stupid as feck 4-2-4 as we did last season, but xG has caught up on us and due to that some players confidence is completely shot, despite that Ole won’t take them out of the firing line, they play out of form and half injured. This compounds the problem, our form gets worse, and more and more players are losing confidence in the coaching/management. That’s the big problem this season, not some utter drivel about new tactics.

Who the hell have we tried to press against anyway? we certainly weren’t pressing against Atalanta, we weren’t pressing against Villa at home, we didn’t press against City etc etc.

Is it because we tried a high press against Liverpool? And did anyone watching that genuinely think that that was a tactic trained on the coaching ground?
The truth is, we were one nil down after five minutes and two down after 13, the players started to randomly press themselves because we were such a fecking mess and massively chasing a game that had completely got away from us within the first 13 minutes.

 

[Skills]

No surprise to see this regurgitated here.

Who the feck have we tried a high press against? This has become the new excuse for those who were backing Ole and his coaching to the hilt over the past seasons, that suddenly the big problem his him changing tactics and “trying to implement a high press”.

Who the hell have we tried to press against? we certainly weren’t pressing against Atalanta, we weren’t pressing against Villa at home, we didn’t press against City etc etc.

Is it because we tried a high press against Liverpool? And did anyone watching that genuinely think that that was a tactic trained on the coaching ground?
The truth is, we were one nil down after five minutes and two down after 13, the players started to randomly press themselves because we were such a fecking mess and massively chasing a game that had completely got away from us within the first 13 minutes.

This. Honestly I don't have much hope for a lot of our fanbase.

We could assemble peak Barcelona under Guardiola & I don't think many people would be able to tell the difference beyond results. It's a bit of a waste of time.

 

[sullydnl]

They're different things though, as far as I know. System is pretty close to formation (like 4-3-3), but I think more about individual positioning, like in your quote. Tactics refers to the overall approach (counterattacking, pressing, etc.). Phases of play are typical moments in a game (attack, defence, transition to attack, transition to defence). Finally, patterns of play are ways to deal with individual situations (e.g., if the full back has the ball in a build-up situation, then ..., and then ..., etc.).

Happy to be corrected here though.

Yep. "Patterns of play" (as I use the term anyway) means specific pre-coached combinations of play between players.

So for example when X player is on the ball Y player move here and Z player moves here, with all three knowing who X will pass to and what the player who will receive it is supposed to do with it next. You drill varieties of these patterns into the team and that allows you to play quicker football, as players are reacting to things before they happen and not having to weigh up options when they get the ball in those situations.

It doesn't even have to be overly complicated stuff, just the fact that players are doing it without hesitation because it has been pre-coached can make a difference. So it could be the difference between AWB seeing Sancho on the ball and reacting by making a run to overlap/underlap or AWB making that run before Sancho gets the ball because both he and Sancho have been coached to know that's what comes next in this sequence of play (and with the CF making a certain run to create space for AWB because he knows what's coming too). In both cases the same thing is happening but in the latter case it happens a lot quicker, which allows for more incision and gets players into more advantageous positions.

Another typical example: Shaw makes a run up the pitch, Ronaldo drops deep, Shaw plays the ball to Ronaldo. Fernandes is drilled to make an arching run, being able to time it so that he's in the correct position and body shape to comfortably receive the ball from Ronaldo while facing the goal. Shaw (knowing in advance that the ball he's playing to Ronaldo will be going to Fernandes next) is able to aim the ball to the foot that allows Ronaldo to play a one-touch pass to Fernandes. Meanwhile Pogba (playing at LW) knows he has to stay wide to keep the opposition fullback engaged and offer a secondary pass option for both Shaw and Ronaldo. Because this is pre-drilled they're able to execute that combination at speed and with the right timing. Whereas if it wasn't pre-drilled then Ronaldo might have to take an extra touch which kills the first time pass to Fernandes, or Fernandes might make the run a bit too slowly or get his body shape wrong.

Above those specific combinations though you have other structures in terms of the shape of the team, how they plan to deal with offensive/defensive transitions, etc. To my mind at least POP are just small, specific functions of that broader structure, which itself may have issues.

 

[justsomebloke]

It's the usual isn't it. A point that is perfectly sensible if you put in the right context - a shortage of structure to our game - gets pounced upon and blown out of all proportion, and we largely end up discussing the hyperbole.

As many have pointed out, the distinction between individual performance and systemic structure isn't tenable if you make it too fundamental. No team's performance is down to one or the other. You can have a sound system that is badly implemented, or that suffers from a lack of the skills required to implement it. Or you can have systemic shortages that fails to enable the skills of the players to amount to an effective whole. Or you can have both. Anyone trying to work out the exact balance between those to explain shortcomings in performance is essentially groping in the dark.

 

[Skills]

Yep. "Patterns of play" (as I use the term anyway) means specific pre-coached combinations of play between players.

So for example when X player is on the ball Y player move here and Z player moves here, with all three knowing who X will pass to and what the player who will receive it is supposed to do with it next. You drill varieties of these patterns into the team and that allows you to play quicker football, as players are reacting to things before they happen and not having to weigh up options when they get the ball in those situations.

It doesn't even have to be overly complicated stuff, just the fact that players are doing it without hesitation because it has been pre-coached can make a difference. So it could be the difference between AWB seeing Sancho on the ball and reacting by making a run to overlap/underlap or AWB making that run before Sancho gets the ball because both he and Sancho have been coached to know that's what comes next in this sequence of play (and with the CF making a certain run to create space for AWB because he knows what's coming too). In both cases the same thing is happening but in the latter case it happens a lot quicker, which allows for more incision and gets players into more advantageous positions.

Another typical example: Shaw makes a run up the pitch, Ronaldo drops deep, Shaw plays the ball to Ronaldo. Fernandes is drilled to make an arching run, being able to time it so that he's in the correct position and body shape to comfortably receive the ball from Ronaldo while facing the goal. Shaw (knowing in advance that the ball he's playing to Ronaldo will be going to Fernandes next) is able to aim the ball to the foot that allows Ronaldo to play a one-touch pass to Fernandes. Meanwhile Pogba (playing at LW) knows he has to stay wide to keep the opposition fullback engaged and offer a secondary pass option for both Shaw and Ronaldo. Because this is pre-drilled they're able to execute that combination at speed and with the right timing. Whereas if it wasn't pre-drilled then Ronaldo might have to take an extra touch which kills the first time pass to Fernandes, or Fernandes might make the run a bit too slowly or get his body shape wrong.

Above those specific combinations though you have other structures in terms of the shape of the team, how they plan to deal with offensive/defensive transitions, etc. To my mind at least POP are just small, specific functions of that broader structure, which itself may have issues.

Good explanation. One the most important aspects of it is that when you have the ball, you're engaging more than 2 players (i.e. the pass maker & the pass receiver). This makes it much harder for the opposition to just commit & close down the obvious pass as it opens up a gap elsewhere. This is where we repeatedly fail, as not enough players are engaged in our moves when we're trying to attack.

Secondly, when you're playing poorly or having a bad game it's much easier for the players to try and settle into a rhythm if they can just try and replicate pre-planned moves from the training ground. It doesn't have to be to attack and score a goal, just to recycle and retain the ball so you get a hold of the game.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Surely no-one listens to what you have to say regarding “hyperbole” and the manager justsomebloke. You’ve spent the entire year since you joined telling us all we don’t know what we’re talking about and how Ole is one of the best in league

 

[Gordon Godot]

Good explanation. One the most important aspects of it is that when you have the ball, you're engaging more than 2 players (i.e. the pass maker & the pass receiver). This makes it much harder for the opposition to just commit & close down the obvious pass as it opens up a gap elsewhere. This is where we repeatedly fail, as not enough players are engaged in our moves when we're trying to attack.

Secondly, when you're playing poorly or having a bad game it's much easier for the players to try and settle into a rhythm if they can just try and replicate pre-planned moves from the training ground. It doesn't have to be to attack and score a goal, just to recycle and retain the ball so you get a hold of the game.

Whether its broader tactics and a style, or specific 'patterns', United lack both. Its a pale imitiation of the Fergie 424, without the players or coaching or even knowing if it works today. Listening to Steve McLaren on the derby, our coach for the treble, he was damning. He said the first thing he looks at is team shape and how close the players are, both with and without the ball. He said Utd is a mess, no coherent shape. That is basic coaching. Its a joke. Just because Ole and his team are 'trying; is irrelevant. They are not good enough. Phelan was not much of a coach when he was here first time.

 

[Smores]

This. Honestly I don't have much hope for a lot of our fanbase.

We could assemble peak Barcelona under Guardiola & I don't think many people would be able to tell the difference beyond results. It's a bit of a waste of time.

That and many aren't willing to admit they were wrong. They'll cling to that like they did with all the fitness/fatigue excuses over last few years.

Our coaching issues were obvious and they're now a direct cause of our failures this season. They can't honestly think it's just a new thing.

 

[Foxbatt]

As Johan Cruijff said football is all about space and time. The right player in the right space at the right time. Either you have the ball or you don't have it. Each player needs to know what to do.
We can call it patterns of play.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

If Solskjaer's intention is to replicate our approach from the early stages of the 11-12 season, then it's no wonder we're in this mess. And if this is his idea of how to play attacking football... oh dear me.

The thing to take from that particular period in our history is that we were able to challenge for the title in the end not because we persisted with these tactics, but mainly because we abandoned them.

Along with the 8-2 (which never looked like thumping in the first half), we have the 3-1 against Chelsea that could have ended 6-6 and, of course, its culmination was the 1-6 vs City when our suicide tactics allowed the noisy neighbours to really announce themselves as one of the big dogs in the Prem. Yeah, it was similar to the kamikaze football we've often witnessed under Solskjaer with the exception that United were the team to beat back then. We weren't playing catch-up, we had the best team and the best manager and we could afford a feck up or two.

It was the period when everyone in the football world was drooling over Pep's Barcelona, and i believe even SAF admitted that losing the two CL finals to them, in the manner that we did, made him reconsider his more cautious approach that had landed him his second CL title in 2008. And he wasn't the only one, many coaches were enamoured with that Barcelona side and it is a fact today proactive football is very dominant. But it doesn't suit all sides and not all mangers can implement it at the highest level.

Anyway, after the City humiliation, United won 4/5 of their next matches 1-0 and we conceded only two goals in our next 9 games. The title went down to the wire in 2012 and we managed to walk the league in Fergie's farewell season by coaching the team to play to its strengths and by maximizing the qualities we knew we already have.

United played a very low block and defended very deep and narrow. We would commit bodies forward but whenever we lost the ball, we would not have (someone like) Fred applying prressure on the first atracker and getting bypassed like a headless chicken. Instead, we would use Carrick's positional awareness to force the opposition in the wide areas. From that point onward, our shape would become very narrow to allow our CBs to do what they know best: deal with crosses in the box.

There was also a logic behind starting grandpas Scholes and Giggs in the centre of the park. Tonnes of experience, bags of personality and, most importantly, great positioning and long-passing ability. These two could be relied on to find a pocket of space where they would receive the ball with face to goal and able to spot all the movement ahead of them. Because, you know, telling your wingers to stay high up the pitch when McFred don't have the long diagonal, the through-balls and the ability to read the play is... to put it simply, plain stupid. The funny thing is what Solskjaer is crying out for, mettle and lots of running, is exactly the opposite of how Ferguson planned his team.

One could argue that, with Evra and Rafael, we were one of the first teams that experimented with tactics that had both FBs spend more time in the atracking half. But this also happened in the context of maximizing the usage of the wide channels to create chances.

I don't know who Solskjaet tries to immitate, but whatever success he's enjoyed thus far has been the product of a more lesaiz-faire version of Mourinho's plan: Focus on the left side for the build-up, use the right-side for switch-balls that should create 1v1/2v2 in open space, play work-horses in the midfield and assume an overarching philosophy that control comes from territorial dominance and not through movement. Mourinho is failling hard because his stubborness has turned him into a relic. Solskjaer is falling because he can't make his team move the ball with purpose. We have the ball in our half anf 4-5 players are moving into advanced positions while we don't know how to get the ball to them. That's what he's here to implement. Through both patterns of play and individual brilliance. Because the man he admires so much would have racked his brain to make room for his good midfield passers, instead of insisting on work-horses, and he would strive to create as many chances for Ronaldo as possible, instead of making him look like a hindrance. In the end, isn't that what proactive football is all about?

 

[Nytram Shakes]

There not mutually exclusive. The best teams players and manager do both.

So you have a well drilled attacking structure that allows you to attack as functioning unit, helps you know we’re your team mates are going to be to thread a ball, or using your players to draw the opposition out of position.

If you have that bases then it also creates room for special players moments of brilliance.

This is why managers like Klopp and Pep are so revered as there teams produce both. You get really well drilled intricate attacking play, but then players like Salah and De Bruyne will pull out something special.

Unfortunately we haven’t had a manger capable of doing this since Fergie left. LVG tried but failed. Then rest of the managers we have had have had a very basic attacking structures which makes you predictable to defend against and overly reliant on individual brilliance.

 

[Max_United]

Also last season was nowhere near good enough for a team that wants to win the Prem or CL. We have regressed but lets not rewrite history and make it seem like we were some fantastic team that just collapsed at the end of the season. We had quite a good spell inbetween our horrible start and and bad ending, but should have further progressed from that. Our shambolic CL group is just one example of how we were still far away.

This. Those mentioning 2nd plus EL final as a significant achievement leave out the context entirely. Not advancing from CL group was bad enough, but in the league on expected goals & points we were distant 4th last season (same as 19/20 season, where we made top4 in the last game only due to Leicester collapse at the end of the season). Headline 3rd and 2nd finishes were papering over the cracks. If you look at big picture there was not any progression since Ole became caretaker - spells of good form followed by spells of horrible form. Some posters following Norwegian league pointed out that that was completely the same pattern with Molde, especially after the initial title-winning seasons.

Some good points made in this thread, of course Ole and coaches are not completely clueless and have an idea of how to play, they are not random guys from the street, but their ideas are failing and they are not able to come up with solutions and in the last games seem to be panicking and chopping and changing tactics in the hope that something works. They had 3 years and 400m to buy whatever players they needed for their ideas, to do coaching, to make tweaks, experiment etc etc. Enough is enough.

 

[Dec9003]

Spoiler: Post

You're right, it's a distinction that gets overlooked and I guess it is because the wording is a bit too vague.



I fully understand why Liverpool and Klopp would get ripped on this forum, but when the comments are framed as a sincere analysis and there takeaway is that Klopp's football amounts to kick and rush, that there is no system and only individual brilliance, it's pretty bad.




I'm amazed by this, what grounds are we talking about and what capacity were you there in? It's not that I don't believe you it's just pretty astonishing to me that if you were at these places on a regular basis you wouldn't have heard about patterns of play (or other phrases conveying the same meaning). It's like going to a garage and finding out the mechanics never talk about cars.

Every manager I've worked with has dedicated massive amounts of time to implementing their system, both in terms of how the team functions on and off the ball, what shape he wants the side in when defending and when shifting the ball, the actual patterns he wants to increase the passing options to players, off the ball movement to create space, when to go long when to go short, the amount of freedom the side has when it comes to countering during transitions. Which players will provide the width and who will provide a focal point. Honestly every function on the pitch will fall under this umbrella, and every single manager will have their own pattern of play and they will certainly be implementing it in training. How effective/entertaining/suitable/ambitious/complex/successful these systems will be and how well implemented is what the managers get judged on, not whether or not they have one, because every manager does. A reactive, pragmatic manager will have their own system, even if it's based around negating their opponents.

I'm not saying I'm an expert but I've worked with people who are, UEFA PRO and UEFA A licensed managers and coaches who have been successful both on and off the pitch, and I hold a FAW C certification myself. It's something that is ubiquitous on training pitches. The only thing I can think of is that you're referring solely to the phrase "patterns of play" and not what it implies, but when you mention not seeing it implemented on training grounds surely you must have seen coaches talking about how he wants his side to play? Things like how are they going to press, what will they do on transitions, creating triangles etc.

When I said I hadn’t heard or seen patterns of play mentioned I meant it quite literally. Obviously as you say coaches want to work on shape and how teams move the ball etc etc but I was never under the impression that that’s what a pattern of play is. I think that’s the problem with the term though, I think it’s been used so often and in so many different ways that it no longer really means anything. I’ve spoken with England youth coaches and filmed training sessions with Leeds and never heard the phrase is all that I meant by the post.

 

[Siorac]

Said it before on here the 4-2-4 we played with McTominay and Fred was clearly trying to replicate the 424 with Anderson and Cleverly (see United 8-2 season against arsenal Nani and Giggs were HIGH! Evra and Rafael pushed up). The very similar structure just inverted forwards this time, patterns of play then were immense. Read Rene Muelesteen's book to understand exactly what the principles are. Wiel Coerver to understand how to coach players to do it - the principles are to encourage players to take initiative within a framework, players are not babied and told where to stand, etc, as one of Sir Alex's instructions was to be unpredictable (this is why IMO Ole states we don't want specialist, we want players who know how to do it all) it's not restrictive - it's a multi-framework.

Sir Alex instructed Rene to teach the team to know how to be compact in a Low Block, Press high, Set traps and Press in certain areas, dominate possession, and quick transitions. It wasn't a one-trick Gegen Press or Positional Play or Tiki-Taka. It was all of it. Players were coached and trusted their own initiative qas a group what defensive strategy to implement based on the opponent, and in moments which one to use. United attacked with "Pace, Power, Penetration and Unpredictability". Unpredictability was SAF big marker, it's why we could switch up to 4-2-4, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1. It didn't matter players were coached to have tactical initiative and ball mastery to understand how to trust your team mates initiative in situations and be creative in order to help our plays remain unpredictable.
I could sit here and write the whole thing but folks would just pile on the insults and negativity (probably use social media terms like "delusional"). To put it simply it's not a "One System philosophy": The team is supposed to recognise as a unit when to press high, when to press in areas transition to a low block etc within a game take initiative and integral to the philosophy "hurt" opposing teams.

I have no doubt that Rene Meulensteen's book probably explains this better but I'm forced to rely on your post because, well, I'm not going to read the book just for this.

And your post doesn't describe a system or even a framework. You're pretty much saying the idea is that the team should be good at everything at the same time, and figure out what to do during the game based on what the opposition does. If that really is Ole's plan, that's another damning indictment on him. But I'm sure he had more coherent ideas than this. He must have.

 

[Bebestation]

The problem with individual brilliance/individualised gameplay is that it's unbalanced- which has both a negative result (no team coordinated ability) aswell as some positive ones because it can randomly surprise the opponent from knowing what to do - aka the late goals (United), players playing to their full strength (seen sometimes by Bayern or Madrid).

In the modern game though I don't think you can be totally reliant on just individual brilliance without a manager with good tactical knowledge because this gets shown too easily. Heyneckes and Zidane (alongside SAF) are more individualised managers in my eyes but they have the tactical understanding enough to get the required base amount out of the team first.

We saw this with Zidane realising that Kroos and Modric doesn't settle- arguably used the most opposite least technical player version of them to do so.


Then you watch the pattern of play managers who are heavy tactically to do so. You watch the rise of inverted forwards playing instead of wingers and then a manager like Pep managed to create/use of a false number 9 who is able to play deep and create for his forwards just as much as score goals.

Klopp used the CAM/CF hybrid player he had in Firmino to do exactly that too, play both as an attacking midfielder and the furthest forward as a false 9 to allow his inverted forwards like Salah and Mane shine.

I initially gave Ole the benefit of the doubt of having some tactical knowledge - because I thought he got rid of Lukaku to play Martial as a false 9 (even though he was dissapointing) inbetween Rashford and Greenwood as seen in his first season; however that was wrong. He always seemed to prioritise the 4231 but yet wanted Haaland as a striker, then went and got Cavani, then went and got Ronaldo - all amazing strikers but the wrong one or type to put in the middle of two inverted forwards - or the two wrong types of inverted wingers to play with such strikers; whichever way you look at it.


There has been individualised based managers that have been legendary both in the past (SAF) or in the pressent (Zidane)- but ultimately individualised play is just a style of play just like any pattern of play; what's most important is the managers tactical knowledge and how they go about using it.

 

[RUCK4444]

No surprise to see this regurgitated here.

Who the feck have we tried a high press against? This has become the new excuse for those who were backing Ole and his coaching to the hilt over the past seasons, that suddenly the big problem is him changing tactics and “trying to implement a high press”.
We play the same stupid as feck 4-2-4 as we did last season, but xG has caught up on us and due to that some players confidence is completely shot, despite that Ole won’t take them out of the firing line, they play out of form and half injured. This compounds the problem, our form gets worse, and more and more players are losing confidence in the coaching/management. That’s the big problem this season, not some utter drivel about new tactics.

Who the hell have we tried to press against anyway? we certainly weren’t pressing against Atalanta, we weren’t pressing against Villa at home, we didn’t press against City etc etc.

Is it because we tried a high press against Liverpool? And did anyone watching that genuinely think that that was a tactic trained on the coaching ground?
The truth is, we were one nil down after five minutes and two down after 13, the players started to randomly press themselves because we were such a fecking mess and massively chasing a game that had completely got away from us within the first 13 minutes.

It's not an excuse it's an observation, either you aren't watching the games or you just want everybody to parrot your own opinions... I guess it's probably both.

In almost every single game the pundits have been pointing out and showing replays of how we are clearly trying to press in areas but it's a half-committed press and we are getting played around, also this half-committed press is pushing the forwards higher and disconnecting from the rest of the team who aren't pressing. It's been shown in almost every game up until and including the Liverpool game (it was also a big part of the goals conceded in the Liverpool game) if you were watching.

We played better last season, had tonnes of chances, scored lots of goals (and importantly defended better), I replied to a poster who asked what's changed, you've put no effort into answering that question and instead just had a pop at my reply because it doesn't consist of your basic negative comments on Ole or similar nonsense. I've not excused the manager, in fact I've clearly pointed out that it's his and his coaching staffs fault that we have gone backwards massively this season.

Just put me on ignore mate because trust me I find you a lot more boring that you find me.

 

[Bebestation]

It's not an excuse it's an observation, either you aren't watching the games or you just want everybody to parrot your own opinions... I guess it's probably both.

In almost every single game the pundits have been pointing out and showing replays of how we are clearly trying to press in areas but it's a half-committed press and we are getting played around, also this half-committed press is pushing the forwards higher and disconnecting from the rest of the team who aren't pressing. It's been shown in almost every game up until and including the Liverpool game (it was also a big part of the goals conceded in the Liverpool game) if you were watching.

We played better last season, had tonnes of chances, scored lots of goals (and importantly defended better), I replied to a poster who asked what's changed, you've put no effort into answering that question and instead just had a pop at my reply because it doesn't consist of your basic negative comments on Ole or similar nonsense. I've not excused the manager, in fact I've clearly pointed out that it's his and his coaching staffs fault that we have gone backwards massively this season.

Just put me on ignore mate because trust me I find you a lot more boring that you find me.

People have started to think pressing is only possible if all 11 players doing it at once.

 

[Foxbatt]

In the end top managers are able to see that the way they want to play is being implemented. What Ole is saying and what he does is entirely opposite. You can't play on your front foot if you don't control the game.
I don't think anyone here can now say that he is an elite coach.
Maybe a lot of you may be too young to see Cruijff's Barca. They play to a set pattern but use individual brilliance of players like Laudrup.

 

[RUCK4444]

People have started to think pressing is only possible if all 11 players doing it at once.

No but it needs to be a committed press, it must be coached as a unit, otherwise you get what we’ve seen so far this season, sporadic pressing from the forwards, no set trigger, just random pressing from individual players.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I think we should agree on the definition of pressing. For me, pressing high (or in the middle of the pitch) means that there's an intention to win the ball in those areas and attack the opposition between transitions or force them into surrendering possession. Maintaining a mid-block by closing down the opponent's ball-players (early in the build-up), but not quite engaging with them, isn't pressing. What our players usually do is the illusion of a press which has one purpose only: To buy us time so that we can get back into shape.

It bore some fruit last season, not without hiccups (see the Leipzig debacle), and helped us several times stay up the pitch. The fact that our passing game leaves a lot to be desired and we can't take full advantage of our courageous position is a whole different discussion. We were forcing a lot of hoof-balls, we were constantly catching the opposition offside (i believe it was us and Leeds toping that category, but i may be wrong) and, in that context, McFred looked like the midfield pair to go with. Again, it was our inability on the ball that was hurting us the most. The only glaringly obvious weaknesses were: a) Maguire's lack of pace against a run in-behind on his blind side and b) Lindelof's weakness to defend in the wide areas on our right side when AWB could not get there in time. But, all in all, we were gaining (defensively) more with this approach than the things we were losing with the sacrifices we were making. And we even signed Varane as the obvious upgrade on Lindelof.

Given that, the problem in our defensive transition is not Ronaldo. It's that crucial players started the season on terrible form and now that we'e in a downward spiral, they look devoid of confidence too. Players like Maguire, Shaw, AWB, Fred and McT, they all look shadows of the players they were the previous season. Silly mistakes, dithering on the ball, late to react in transitions. And it's difficult to abandon the whole thing and switch to a low block because neither the passing game nor the midfield functionality is there to help us do that.

 

[R'hllor]

Watching football on livescorecom must be nice.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

People have started to think pressing is only possible if all 11 players doing it at once.

For the most part it is 10 players performing actions to allow a press to work. Positions, closing space and options for passes, which hopefully leads to the opposition forced to lump the ball or making a mistake which someone can capitalise one. No point in 1 or 2 of your forwards pressing if the rest of your team aren’t doing it closing lanes to make life difficult for the player on the ball. Then it’s pointless. The whole team is involved in pressing.
Some people just don’t realise it goes a lot deeper and is more technical than just running towards someone with a ball.


There have been very few games over Oles reign where we have properly tried to press. When he first joined and then there has been the odd occasion over the seasons where we’ve done it for 5-10 minutes in game. I wouldn’t say it’s something we really do.

I think it was Ruck that mentioned the things about the pundits saying we press and it causes problems which I guess is referring to Bruno. Which I don’t class as pressing becuase no one else does anything and in reality he shouldn’t even be going there. Cavani and Bruno run about and put people under pressure. So does Fred. But it’s not a press. A press is an organised tactic that involves your team performing multiple actions which we don’t do.

We are a counter attacking team and not a particularly great one at that.

 

[Hammondo]

I cannot imagine many top teams having this discussion.