Arsenal 2023/24 - Have bottled the Champions League and are Bottling the League

awop

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noodlehair said:
I'm kind of with Neville and Carragher on the celebrations thing. Its bizarre.

They crumbled last year when things got tough and you would think that would teach them not to get carried away emotionally, but then more than once this season they celebrate a win or goal like a world cup win.

So what happens in a couple of months time when (if) they are in a title race, and suddenly the emotion and pressure on every game is amplified x10? Its only going to take one blip or bad result and all that emotion is reversed.

You can do that after a particularly emotionally charged game maybe. E.g. the Evra vs Suarez rematch. You can't be channeling that much all or nothing into every game. It will either turn on you or you'll burn out way before the finish line...might have gotten away with that some seasons in the past where there's no one there to take advantage, but not now with City who will no doubt win 19 of their last 16 games or something.
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Could you name a particularly emotionally charged event where we would have been allowed to celebrate by the Premier League royalty ? I won't use referees mistakes because surely they don't qualify. Since City cheated their way to 3 on the trot we should not have celebrated anything for the past 137 league games because we didnt win it. That sounds miserable :(
If it goes wrong in a couple of months, what happens is we'll be disappointed and move on. Highs and lows, not 3 years of walking straight down the tunnel.
 

Rooney in Paris

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People get super touchy about this topic and immediately use the stupid "celebration police" phrase which is rather boring when there's some actual interesting points being made as to why those celebrations aren't necessarily reflective of a team that can sustain a season long, emotionally draining and intense title challenge.
 

JJ12

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It's comes across very small time. Act as if you've been in a title race and beaten a rival before.
 

Daydreamer

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Rooney in Paris said:
People get super touchy about this topic and immediately use the stupid "celebration police" phrase which is rather boring when there's some actual interesting points being made as to why those celebrations aren't necessarily reflective of a team that can sustain a season long, emotionally draining and intense title challenge.
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I dunno about other supporters, I don't feel touchy - just amused. If Arsenal don't win the league it will be because City and/or Liverpool were more consistent than us against the other 17 teams. It will have very little, if anything, to do with Odegaard taking a picture of our club photographer after the game.
 

Rooney in Paris

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Daydreamer said:
I dunno about other supporters, I don't feel touchy - just amused. If Arsenal don't win the league it will be because City and/or Liverpool were more consistent than us against the other 17 teams. It will have very little, if anything, to do with Odegaard taking a picture of our club photographer after the game.
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Because you're isolating a tiny piece of behaviour, disconnecting it from a general context, and ridiculing it - which is fine. It might also be that you lack focus in the run in, and that the emphasis on emotion as portrayed after the win on Sunday was a symptom of that issue (which is something that has been levelled at Arsenal before).

I don't have particularly strong feelings on this but when I see seasoned professionals, multiple title winning players raising this as being a worrying sign (I'm not talking specifically about Carragher btw), I think it's probably worth looking into and wondering what impact this might have. Sports psychology, emotion, the mental side of the game, all these things are real and have a true impact on team performances and results.
 

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Rooney in Paris said:
Because you're isolating a tiny piece of behaviour, disconnecting it from a general context, and ridiculing it - which is fine. It might also be that you lack focus in the run in, and that the emphasis on emotion as portrayed after the win on Sunday was a symptom of that issue (which is something that has been levelled at Arsenal before).

I don't have particularly strong feelings on this but when I see seasoned professionals, multiple title winning players raising this as being a worrying sign (I'm not talking specifically about Carragher btw), I think it's probably worth looking into and wondering what impact this might have. Sports psychology, emotion, the mental side of the game, all these things are real and have a true impact on team performances and results.
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The reason I'm isolating the incident and ridiculing it is because that incident was isolated and ridiculed directly by Carragher. But dealing with your broader point in good faith, I agree that the mental side of the game is incredibly important. But teams, particularly Liverpool (funnily enough), have celebrated in similar or even more intense fashions. For far less important games. It hasn't stopped them challenging for, and even winning, major honours. In fact, it's frequently praised as having a galvanising effect between the players, Manager and squad.

Gooners view the likes of Jamie Carragher, Chris Sutton and Richard Keys as celebration police because that is exactly how they act. It's incredibly selective and frankly laughable. If players want to celebrate with their own staff and fans, why would that bother you? I've loved seeing that from Klopp. I love seeing it from Arteta. I wouldn't say I love seeing it from Ange exactly, but I respect it.

Football is a low scoring sport. There are very few occasions where you can celebrate. And even those are tempered by the presence of VAR. I can't get my head around trying to drain yet more joy out of the game.
 

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Celebrate as you want. There is a point where it is insulting to the opposition but as long as it is respectful than whatever. I do object to the over the top behavior of Arteta but the players can do whatever they want to. He needs to be more mature.

Are we going to tell 9 year olds they can't celebrate because their trophy means nothing? I actually appreciate players wanting it and enjoying the game. We often have a go at players who seemingly don't give a toss. Well here is the opposite and it's still not right apparently.
 

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JJ12 said:
It's comes across very small time. Act as if you've been in a title race and beaten a rival before.
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It's been a very long time that we can say we're anywhere near the level of Liverpool and City. And for the 2nd season running, we've taken 4 points off Liverpool and finally taken something off City for the first time in ages. No Champions League for 7 years, and the last time (before last season) we were anywhere near a title challenge was when Leceister won it. This is the second youngest team in the league. So yeah, for our squad this is very new to them, going toe to toe with the big boys at the highest level.
 

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The whole criticism for celebrating is silly. All clubs celebrate when they win against big teams or rivals and they do so when they come back from behind to win. Players celebrate when they score goals. It's hard to score goals and it's hard even for talented stacked teams to win EPL matches. Passion from players and supporters is one of the things that makes the sport great.
 

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I'm warming to them winning the title.
They will more than likely bottle it but I suppose it beats the alternative.
 

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First time we've ever won the first five games of a calendar year. 6-0 and 5-0 in successive away games. Hope we're not peaking too soon!
 

AshRK

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They are playing some top football off late and you have to wonder with everything working for them, if they don't win it now then when.
 

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horsechoker said:
You won't be saying that when Arteta kicks down your door and celebrates in front of your helpless family like a cnut.
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If it stops another City Treble or a Liverpool "20 times" chant then he can do what he likes :D
 

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Keep forgetting Ødegaard is only 25. Ran the show in the game today.
 

erikcred

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Gazautd18 said:
I'm warming to them winning the title.
They will more than likely bottle it but I suppose it beats the alternative.
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Same here. If they achieve the small matter of beating City away, they'll have definitely earned the title.
 

JogaBonitoRooney

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horsechoker said:
He burst onto the scene ten years ago. Practically a veteran at this point. He went to Real at the wrong time but still got back on track.
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I remember all the hype around him when he was just a skinny 15 year old. He looked good but it didn't mean much in the Norwegian league. It's cool that he proved to be the real deal.
 

Gene Loblaw

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Really hope Arteta doesn't get the itchy trigger finger and instantly insert Jesus right back into the team. Really think this 11 with trossard playing as the false nine/striker is the best line up for the squad.
 

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Although we are down points compared to this stage last year, I rate our chances slightly higher than last year. Still the underdogs of the three having said that.
 

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As much as I hate Arteta, would rather they win it than Pool. Atleast they play some great football that is nice to watch, unlike Pool with their route-one long ball tactics.
 

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Adisa said:
A proper playmaker there.
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Yeh he has dropped deeper in recent games and has increasingly ran the show. His engine is incredible too, doesn't stop running and always leading the press. He's almost been playing as an 8 lately, not a 10. Such an intelligent player and was MOTM today.
 

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AshRK said:
They are playing some top football off late and you have to wonder with everything working for them, if they don't win it now then when.
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Unfortunately City exists and Liverpool have extra incentive (not that they need it) with Klopp's announcement. It is just some achievement to go toe to toe with City for two straight seasons. I never would have imagined this 3 years ago.
I do feel that we're finding our form at the right team this season, unlike last where we peaked too early. We also have players to come back into the squad - Jesus, Zinchenko, Tomiyasu, Vieira, Partey and Timber. We're going to need them especially now CL is back.
 

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They have a good chance this year. Hope they pull it off ahead of the two cunto clubs.
 

amolbhatia50k

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GoonerGirly said:
Unfortunately City exists and Liverpool have extra incentive (not that they need it) with Klopp's announcement. It is just some achievement to go toe to toe with City for two straight seasons. I never would have imagined this 3 years ago.
I do feel that we're finding our form at the right team this season, unlike last where we peaked too early. We also have players to come back into the squad - Jesus, Zinchenko, Tomiyasu, Vieira, Partey and Timber. We're going to need them especially now CL is back.
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City exists but they will likely drop a level this year and probably already have with some of the departures and title fatigue. Liverpool are good but I think currently Arsenal is a more well rounded team - only question is if Arteta, Arsenals mental strength and front line holds up. On paper, I think I’d rather have your squad as of today.
 

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amolbhatia50k said:
City exists but they will likely drop a level this year and probably already have with some of the departures and title fatigue. Liverpool are good but I think currently Arsenal is a more well rounded team - only question is if Arteta, Arsenals mental strength and front line holds up. On paper, I think I’d rather have your squad as of today.
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You've hit the nail on the head as to why Arsenal will never be favourites against City/Liverpool for the title. We have to win it for that narrative to change. We just don't have the experience - we're the 2nd youngest team in the league and our manager is also very young/inexperienced. At the moment, I think we have learned from last season and we're hitting form at the right time. Everything is clicking right now and Arteta has done brilliantly to evolve our play and make the right tactical decisions game by game. Will that be enough though? Probably not if I'm being honest, but I will enjoy every second of the ride.
 
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GoonerBear

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amolbhatia50k said:
City exists but they will likely drop a level this year and probably already have with some of the departures and title fatigue. Liverpool are good but I think currently Arsenal is a more well rounded team - only question is if Arteta, Arsenals mental strength and front line holds up. On paper, I think I’d rather have your squad as of today.
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Arteta repeatedly says when asked what the main thing Arsenal could or will do different to avoid last years collapse would be having the availability of key players.

l think people still underestimate how much the loss of Saliba was to us for the last few months of the season, and for Partey for a chunk of that as well, and when he came back his form was poor.

The signing of Rice has meant we’ve learned to live without Partey, but I’m not sure there’s anyone there yet that would allow us to cope without both centre backs actually, and maybe Odegaard as well.

City have shown they can cope without De Bruyne, Haaland etc, but when Rodri is missing they struggle. I think that’s the effect missing Saliba had for us last season.
 

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GoonerBear said:
Arteta repeatedly says when asked what the main thing Arsenal could or will do different to avoid last years collapse would be having the availability of key players.

l think people still underestimate how much the loss of Saliba was to us for the last few months of the season, and for Partey for a chunk of that as well, and when he came back his form was poor.

The signing of Rice has meant we’ve learned to live without Partey, but I’m not sure there’s anyone there yet that would allow us to cope without both centre backs actually, and maybe Odegaard as well.

City have shown they can cope without De Bruyne, Haaland etc, but when Rodri is missing they struggle. I think that’s the effect missing Saliba had for us last season.
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The loss of Tomiyasu, in the same game as Saliba, probably cost us a bit as well. Tomi's no Saliba but the drop off between the two of them and Holding was huge.

I do think there's a lot more to winning trophies than availability but we've got seven senior players injured and we're winning games handsomely. It bodes well for if/when everyone's back.
 

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Egalitard said:
The loss of Tomiyasu, in the same game as Saliba, probably cost us a bit as well. Tomi's no Saliba but the drop off between the two of them and Holding was huge.

I do think there's a lot more to winning trophies than availability but we've got seven senior players injured and we're winning games handsomely. It bodes well for if/when everyone's back.
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There is of course, and the mental side of thing sure comes into it. But it’s sure easier to believe your going to win games when you have your top players available.
When guys were analysing Arteta and Arsenal as a whole on here, many spoke about Arsenal having a lucky 6 months last season and the rest of the 2.5 years were poor and that was more Arsenals level.

They didn’t put a link that during the good 6 months, was the 6 months Saliba played. Now we have another 6 months where Saliba played and we’re back to near top of the table form.

Coincidence….perhaps? We need to see a full season to see how that works out.
 

ESR10

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It will be between City and Arsenal.
Liverpool should already have less points than they have: https://understat.com/league/EPL
And with injuries and Europa League matches on Thursdays they will not sustain the rythm in the final months.
 
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