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Yeah, at that time he was good and had positive impact so I argued in favor of him. This season he is not playing well and has been consistently poor so I want him out of the team.Okay roonster, my speechlessness is, surprise - at the fact that your current position towards Bruno is the opposite of what you have argued for years.
Fair enough if that’s how you see it. I respect that, although of course I see it differently. I said for a long time that eventually, due to what I believe to be the truth being the truth - even Bruno’s biggest defenders would get fed up of him eventually. My personal frustration, given the nature of some of the words exchanged would be that the day they do, the theory would be that he of course only became that player that day, whereas before - everything they had said was valid, and even if they agree with his critics on a Monday - I still maintain they were simply wrong on the Sunday. On Sunday, we had ‘agendas’, but on Monday, what we said was true, but only because it’s coincidentally now true on Monday.Yeah, at that time he was good and had positive impact so I argued in favor of him. This season he is not playing well and has been consistently poor so I want him out of the team.
I do this for almost every player, I'm not rigid in my stance, i always change it based on what is happening on the pitch and how they are contributing.
Who would we play instead of him?This is what happens when a player is undroppable. He should've been dropped based on his last few games or a least subbed off yesterday. He knows no matter how bad he is, he will always play 90 minutes if he's fit.
No player is perfect, imperfect players also contribute to the team. Bruno had weakness but still he delivered, what you said at that time was complete unfair to the player as the style you wanted to play was not the style manager wanted to play and even today it's not the style manager wants to play. You have built some playing style in your head and criticized him for not being a David Silva, it's actually the point you argued for years when same thing was done to Pogba, when people criticized Pogba for not being the player they expected.Fair enough if that’s how you see it. I respect that, although of course I see it differently. I said for a long time that eventually, due to what I believe to be the truth being the truth - even Bruno’s biggest defenders would get fed up of him eventually. My personal frustration, given the nature of some of the words exchanged would be that the day they do, the theory would be that he of course only became that player that day, whereas before - everything they had said was valid, and even if they agree with his critics on a Monday - I still maintain they were simply wrong on the Sunday. On Sunday, we had ‘agendas’, but on Monday, what we said was true, but only because it’s coincidentally now true on Monday.
Now the above may not be applicable to you, and I actually genuinely feel that you genuinely feel that Bruno has only suddenly become a problem. Although I think, objectively, it’s likely that you now having the problem with him that others had yesterday would suggest that it just took you, or others, longer to see the problems we are now in agreement of. I can’t think of one issue anyone would have with Bruno’s game today that he did not exhibit one year ago. If they are now frustrated with him misplacing passes, if they are now frustrated with him going for low percentage balls a high percentage of the time, if they are now frustrated with his poor physical capabilities - I think it’s a stretch to claim that these things were not present one, two or three years ago.
To me, he’s always been who he is. People of course have player preferences, which means myself or Jeppers had a problem with that player, and others less so. But if a person was ever going to have a problem with Bruno’s flaws, I can’t imagine why it would take years, hence my surprise. Those of us who value certain things had a problem with Bruno years ago. I simply thought that you either didn’t share the same opinion of these issues, or you saw them, but your position was that they were not an issue for you, seemingly because of Statman Dave’s summaries.
This is the stat I want. I'm sure he'll be one of the players in the league who 'creates' the highest number of chances for the other team through poor decision making and misplaced passes.There needs to be a composite stat that brings together chance creating actions and turnovers of play. The NBA talks about turnovers a lot, but football doesn't. Are they tracked somewhere? Bruno has got to be one of the highest turnover players out there.
All that is fair opinion, it still leads me to wonder why you then have a problem with it now. To the point where you would sell Bruno. If he registers a few more assists will you be a big defender again? Is it that Bruno has suddenly changed as a player which has led you to change your opinion?No player is perfect, imperfect players also contribute to the team. Bruno had weakness but still he delivered, what you said at that time was complete unfair to the player as the style you wanted to play was not the style manager wanted to play and even today it's not the style manager wants to play. You have built some playing style in your head and criticized him for not being a David Silva, it's actually the point you argued for years when same thing was done to Pogba, when people criticized Pogba for not being the player they expected.
IIRC I said Bruno should be dropped at the start of the season or maybe a month or two into the season. I said both him and Rashford should be dropped and I defended Rashford for years as he contributed positively to the team for years. Same with Bruno, even with his playing style he contributed well. If we were playing some possession football with Bruno sticking out as sore thumb then I can see your point, but that's not the case. EtH said he wants ManUtd to be best transition team, we give 0 fecks about possession or control. It's all vertical game. So why should anyone blame players for following Manager's instructions?
I'm on the complete opposite of your point. I don't agree with people who take a stance and standby it irrespective of what happens on the pitch and when one fine day or season when the player finally turns out to be shit or good, they will come up with how they were always right.
Each to their own, I just don't like taking rigid stance on any player or manager.
"Chances created" is the most stupid statistic ever, a few games back he was said to have created the most chances in a game in a year of any Utd player, 9 roughly from memory? I re-watched the full 90 minutes to try and clear any bias to see if I am seeing things incorrectly and I couldn't even count 2 chances if I was being generous, what the hell they consider a chance I will never know...If you look at chances created not just "Big chances" he's top. So my point is still valid.....
1) Bruno Fernandes (Manchester United): 72 (3.0)
2) Pascal Gross (Brighton): 67 (3.0)
3) Martin Odegaard (Arsenal): 64 (2.9)
4) Kieran Trippier (Newcastle United): 63 (2.8)
5) Bukayo Saka (Arsenal): 61 (2.7)
Why not now? I mean it's not even now, I said same thing few months ago but lets say it's now. Why not now? Why shouldn't anyone change their opinion when they see the player isn't playing like he used to and has been in a rough patch for long time and doesn't have age on his side.All that is fair opinion, it still leads me to wonder why you then have a problem with it now. To the point where you would sell Bruno. If he registers a few more assists will you be a big defender again? Is it that Bruno has suddenly changed as a player which has led you to change your opinion?
And Ten Hag said he wanted us to be the best transition team about 6 months ago, my views on Bruno have been what they are since about 10 games in. And Ten Hag’s comments could not be less relevant to how I rate a player. We’ve had that conversation before, and recently regarding Mason Mount, when you told me that my view of him should change because respected managers hold a certain view of him. Ten Hag can like something and have no problem with it, that does not mean I have to like it and have no problem with it. I’m not obligated to rate Scott McTominay because ETH doesn’t care if his midfielders can pass the ball.
It’s cool to say an opinion is not rigid, but an opinion should be rigid if the things you object to remain the same. I look at a player’s qualities, and if I rate them I rate them and if I don’t, I don’t. Within that, I can say Bruno has had a good game, which I’ve done many times. I’ve given my overarching view on him a number of times, what I feel he’s good at, what I feel he isn’t, and explained that the problem I have with him is the things I feel he’s not good at are needed in a top side. That view should be a rigid view, and not swing with every assist. Especially as we have at no point been a top team, so not as if I have been forced to backtrack in the face of titles and CLs.
I don’t form rigid views of players, I form rigid views of good and bad. Which is why Dalot has gone up in my estimation, Lindelof went up significantly in my estimation since he’s been here, and Martial has gone down. It’s the footballers who need to change, not my view on what I once thought was good or bad. To my observation, Bruno has never changed as a player, and been the same player since he joined us, hence my opinion on him not changing. If he turned into David Silva tomorrow, then I’d rate him higher than I do. As I rate David Silva as better than him.
Things like 5-yard pass to Anthony or Rashford, who go on a stupid dribble and have a blocked shot."Chances created" is the most stupid statistic ever, a few games back he was said to have created the most chances in a game in a year of any Utd player, 9 roughly from memory? I re-watched the full 90 minutes to try and clear any bias to see if I am seeing things incorrectly and I couldn't even count 2 chances if I was being generous, what the hell they consider a chance I will never know...
A chance created is a pass that leads to a shot on goal so not a stupid stat in reality. The game where Bruno broke the record for chances created (9) was against Spurs back in October 2022 so i think you must be getting muddled up with the wrong game. Anyways i don't want to be hung up on stats as stats isn't everything....i'm just saying he is out of form but we should by no means be thinking about selling him."Chances created" is the most stupid statistic ever, a few games back he was said to have created the most chances in a game in a year of any Utd player, 9 roughly from memory? I re-watched the full 90 minutes to try and clear any bias to see if I am seeing things incorrectly and I couldn't even count 2 chances if I was being generous, what the hell they consider a chance I will never know...
I think it may have been the Bournemouth game, that we lost 3-0, where people were banging on about Bruno creating 8 or 9 chances...and ignoring the fact that he captained us in a game where we got taken apart by Bournemouth at home and at no point did our captain exert any control, other than spamming balls all over the place and giving away possession.A chance created is a pass that leads to a shot on goal so not a stupid stat in reality. The game where Bruno broke the record for chances created (9) was against Spurs back in October 2022 so i think you must be getting muddled up with the wrong game. Anyways i don't want to be hung up on stats as stats isn't everything....i'm just saying he is out of form but we should by no means be thinking about selling him.
It's almost like it was designed by Bruno fans."Chances created" is the most stupid statistic ever, a few games back he was said to have created the most chances in a game in a year of any Utd player, 9 roughly from memory? I re-watched the full 90 minutes to try and clear any bias to see if I am seeing things incorrectly and I couldn't even count 2 chances if I was being generous, what the hell they consider a chance I will never know...
Not really. The standard for "chance" is seemingly pretty lax and you said "by a mile", which is verifiably false.If you look at chances created not just "Big chances" he's top. So my point is still valid.....
Well we had 3 CMS against Luton and he was moved to the left instead of subbing him off. We could've had Amad there but Bruno played 90 minutes again.Who would we play instead of him?
Ok I’ll retract the statement I said by “mile”Not really. The standard for "chance" is seemingly pretty lax and you said "by a mile", which is verifiably false.
This is exactly what I’m trying to say. We got way bigger problems than Bruno. He gives everything for the shirt as is having a bad patch. Stats are stats and can be manipulated to suit any argument but you tell me the next player that can create or get any of the numbers that Bruno has?Chances created is a great stat, but like many stats isn’t perfect. Perfection, however, is an ideal that’s never reached with many useful stats.
But back to Bruno. He’s going through a bit of a dire spell yet we’re winning games. ETH is right to stick with Bruno but if his form deteriorates even further it might be good idea to drop him for a match.
I can’t wait until he leaves just so I never have to hear about this fugazi stat ever again."Chances created" is the most stupid statistic ever, a few games back he was said to have created the most chances in a game in a year of any Utd player, 9 roughly from memory? I re-watched the full 90 minutes to try and clear any bias to see if I am seeing things incorrectly and I couldn't even count 2 chances if I was being generous, what the hell they consider a chance I will never know...
Again, chances created has a pretty lax criteria. United should be looking to sell. Bruno Fernandes is 29 years old and his haphazard way of playing, which was previously tolerated due to productivity, is detrimental to/for a team looking to control games. I'd hope United wants more than counter-attacking football against the likes of Luton - all due respect. Availability and being a "busy body" aside, Bruno Fernandes isn't particularly great at anything, he's not physically imposing, not fast, not a good dribbler nor press resistant - he can make a killer pass here and there though to get there he has to "spray and pray" and give possession away in double digits before it comes off - so at 29 it is hard to argue he will somehow flourish and get better. If there's anytime to sell it should be right about now whilst some people (and I'm hoping potential suitors) are still fooled by "leading chance creation" or "give his all for the shirt" stuffOk I’ll retract the statement I said by “mile”
But he still leads the way for chances created and isn’t a player United should be looking to sell.
Yeah, but you suggested dropping him. Who should be playing in attacking midfield ahead of him?Well we had 3 CMS against Luton and he was moved to the left instead of subbing him off. We could've had Amad there but Bruno played 90 minutes again.
That same criteria applies to every player. It shows no bias. As for spray and pray, does that also apply to Kevin De Bruyne? Because their passing stats are remarkably similar.Again, chances created has a pretty lax criteria. United should be looking to sell. Bruno Fernandes is 29 years old and his haphazard way of playing, which was previously tolerated due to productivity, is detrimental to/for a team looking to control games. I'd hope United wants more than counter-attacking football against the likes of Luton - all due respect. Availability and being a "busy body" aside, Bruno Fernandes isn't particularly great at anything, he's not physically imposing, not fast, not a good dribbler nor press resistant - he can make a killer pass here and there though to get there he has to "spray and pray" and give possession away in double digits before it comes off - so at 29 it is hard to argue he will somehow flourish and get better. If there's anytime to sell it should be right about now whilst some people (and I'm hoping potential suitors) are still fooled by "leading chance creation" or "give his all for the shirt" stuff
Well my question of ‘why now?’ was based on me looking at him as the same player. Fair enough if you personally feel that Bruno has recently changed, that’s not been my interpretation. From Bruno’s first handful of games, he’s been fecking up passes. People have even been pointing it out on here, the other view was always that pass completion was irrelevant, at least he’s trying things etc. Which is why I found it difficult to have a problem with those things all of a sudden after years. His shooting has never been elite levels. He can’t strike a ball like KDB or Scholes used to do, and scored half of his goals from penalties, of which we don’t get as many anymore.Why not now? I mean it's not even now, I said same thing few months ago but lets say it's now. Why not now? Why shouldn't anyone change their opinion when they see the player isn't playing like he used to and has been in a rough patch for long time and doesn't have age on his side.
Lets say he registers assists, scores goals then it would be stupid to criticize him as he is making positive impact to the team and also will be in the sync with the team.
I rate players based on whether they are making positive contribution to the team, right now and for sometime Bruno isn't and he is approaching 30. So it's right time to move him on as we might get something for him. You rate players based on their attributes, it's fine, even if they play like shit it's all fine as long as they have those attributes. For me it's not the case, players are imperfect and it's all about whether they are making good contribution to the team.
Completely disagree with the part that Bruno has not changed. for a start he isn't playing as attacking mid, he is playing lot more withdrawn role. When he started he played attacking mid role, got into great positions frequently and made impact on the game. Now he plays deeper, messes up easy counters and the one thing that was going for him playing good passes to attackers has declined too. His shooting has declined too, lot of mishits, lots of passes with more weight than needed and his work rate has sort of declined too (not sure if I will find data to back this up.
He also doesn’t have the quality of pass that De Bruyne has. Football is to be watched, not read. Anyone can see that De Bruyne is a superior passer. And two misplaced passes are not the same. A pass that doesn’t reach its target can be a great pass, and a pass that doesn’t reach its target can be a poor one. Bruno makes more poor passes than De Bruyne.That same criteria applies to every player. It shows no bias. As for spray and pray, does that also apply to Kevin De Bruyne? Because their passing stats are remarkably similar.
https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...=e46012d4&p2yrfrom=2022-2023&p2yrto=2023-2024
That’s from the start of last season. He’s a player that tries to force the issue. Just like his lauded counterpart. Unfortunately Bruno doesn’t have the quality of player beside him that De Bruyne has.
But you’re watching through a lens of bias. De Bruyne plays with better players so they’ll make more of his passes than our players do. De Bruyne is also less burdened with defensive responsibilities and his missed passes usually don’t matter. If you watched them on Saturday you’ll have seen him over hitting cross after cross. When you watch United and Bruno does it then it annoys you more.He also doesn’t have the quality of pass that De Bruyne has. Football is to be watched, not read. Anyone can see that De Bruyne is a superior passer. And two misplaced passes are not the same. A pass that doesn’t reach its target can be a great pass, and a pass that doesn’t reach its target can be a poor one. Bruno makes more poor passes than De Bruyne.
I didn’t say it’s bias - I said it’s a lax criteria - to the point a subcat like “big chance creation” seemingly exists, which he apparently doesn’t lead. I’d hazard a guess that Bruno also ranks higher at giving possession away than some/a considerable amount of the players he ranks above in the chance creation list posted above - and again, my point of contention was the assertion that he leads it by a mile, he doesn’t.That same criteria applies to every player. It shows no bias. As for spray and pray, does that also apply to Kevin De Bruyne? Because their passing stats are remarkably similar.
https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...=e46012d4&p2yrfrom=2022-2023&p2yrto=2023-2024
That’s from the start of last season. He’s a player that tries to force the issue. Just like his lauded counterpart. Unfortunately Bruno doesn’t have the quality of player beside him that De Bruyne has.
And I’m saying that criteria applies to every player so everybody has an equal chance at topping it.I didn’t say it’s bias - I said it’s a lax criteria - to the point a subcat like “big chance creation seemingly exists, which he apparently doesn’t lead. I’d hazard a guess that Bruno also ranks higher at giving possession away than some/a considerable amount of the players he ranks above in the chance creation list posted above - at again, my point of contention was the assertion that he leads it by a mile, he doesn’t l.
You refer to Kevin De Bruyne as if it’s a gotcha moment - Kevin De Bruyne can also spray and pray whilst being a better and more cultured player with the ball than Bruno - these aren’t mutually exclusive.
Yeah, well - such is life. De Bruyne plays in a better team and is afforded latitude Bruno doesn’t have - the onus is on Bruno to adjust and adapt his game. S
EriksenYeah, but you suggested dropping him. Who should be playing in attacking midfield ahead of him?
He also can’t run with or carry the ball the way de Bruyne does. The latter has a lot more to his game. These debates will be had ad nauseam until it finally clicks for all.He also doesn’t have the quality of pass that De Bruyne has. Football is to be watched, not read. Anyone can see that De Bruyne is a superior passer. And two misplaced passes are not the same. A pass that doesn’t reach its target can be a great pass, and a pass that doesn’t reach its target can be a poor one. Bruno makes more poor passes than De Bruyne.
What this misses is when and where they misplace their passes. It is the game intelligence (as shown by De Bruyne) to pass with dangerous crosses, or through balls that come at the end of a carefully crafted move, or during a dangerous transition.And I’m saying that criteria applies to every player so everybody has an equal chance at topping it.
I mention De Bruyne because it is in the nature of players who try to create to give the ball away. If you tried to tell anybody that De Bruyne is a bad passer they would laugh at you but the facts show they are almost identical in that regard.
But none of that has anything to with his passing.He also can’t run with or carry the ball the way de Bruyne does. The latter has a lot more to his game. These debates will be had ad nauseam until it finally clicks for all.
What I’m saying is the statistics don’t tell the story. If Kevin whips the ball round two defenders and Haaland misses it by inches, it’s a missed pass. The whole ‘look at KDBs stats, they are the same as Bruno’ thing implies they are the same quality, when they are not. I’m not talking about assist stats here. Tbh, I have never cared about assist stats, nonsense metric to me. I’m talking about the insinuation that they are a similar level due to pass completion. There is more nuance to it than that.But you’re watching through a lens of bias. De Bruyne plays with better players so they’ll make more of his passes than our players do. De Bruyne is also less burdened with defensive responsibilities and his missed passes usually don’t matter. If you watched them on Saturday you’ll have seen him over hitting cross after cross. When you watch United and Bruno does it then it annoys you more.
It’s a mitigating factor that helps alleviate de Bruyne’s poor passing, in contrast.But none of that has anything to with his passing.
De Bruyne isn’t tasked with defending and setting tempo. Thats what Rodri does. City are usually also a couple of ahead which we rarely have the luxury of.What this misses is when and where they misplace their passes. It is the game intelligence (as shown by De Bruyne) to pass with dangerous crosses, or through balls that come at the end of a carefully crafted move, or during a dangerous transition.
What he does not do - is play ping pong when we've just traded the ball 3 times, the attackers are exhausted, players are disjointed, defence is out of position, etc, but oh! Garnacho is in, so he'll try a speculative ball, further exhausting our players as they invariably don't get there because everyone is fecking knackered. 10% of the time it pays off, 80% of the time it's useless, and 10% of the time we get countered and concede dangerous chances.
It's the game intelligence to know when to use his creativity and when to play it safe that is killing our ability to control games right now.
KDB is an assassin with his passing, Bruno is a guy with a Tommy gun that's prone to exploding.
I know what you’re saying - I didn’t contest him topping it, I’m saying it doesn’t mean much to me when the criteria is supposedly so lax a sub category which emphasises the quality of chance created exists and he doesn’t lead said one. Especially when considering there isn’t a substantial gap between him and the other players in the “chance creation” list shared in this thread, and my belief that he’s a lot more detrimental to us than the other players in the same list are for their teams.And I’m saying that criteria applies to every player so everybody has an equal chance at topping it.
I mention De Bruyne because it is in the nature of players who try to create to give the ball away. If you tried to tell anybody that De Bruyne is a bad passer they would laugh at you but the facts show they are almost identical in that regard.
I didn’t say they are a similar level. I said their passing is. De Bruyne can carry the ball much better too. I take objection to this spray and pray nonsense. His game is to try and look for through balls. It’s to be expected that he will give the ball away.What I’m saying is the statistics don’t tell the story. If Kevin whips the ball round two defenders and Haaland misses it by inches, it’s a missed pass. The whole ‘look at KDBs stats, they are the same as Bruno’ thing implies they are the same quality, when they are not. I’m not talking about assist stats here. Tbh, I have never cared about assist stats, nonsense metric to me. I’m talking about the insinuation that they are a similar level due to pass completion. There is more nuance to it than that.
And I agree, plenty of poor crosses from Kevin on Saturday.
