Who replaces Ten Hag?

devilish said:

Nagelsmann is not an option. He'll join United in July, he is a system manager, he lost the support of Bayern's players and he's got no experience in the EPL. We need someone who

a- accept the role of head coach
b- he knows the EPL well
c- he understands what's going wrong inside the United ranks.
d- has solid tactics that are compatible to our squad

In my opinion McKenna is a no brainer. He did fabulously with Ipswich with two back to back promotions, he plays amazing football, he knows how to switch things around (plan A, plan B, plan C etc), he doesn't have favorite players (I doubt he'll fill us with Ipswich/Championship players like Eredivisie does) and he'll accept the role of HC. On top of that he knows our squad, the youth academy (which will play a central role in INEOS plans), who are the hard workers and who are the back stabbers. There aren't many players at United that Mckenna haven't worked with.

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Why do they need to know the EPL well?

Did Pep know it well before joining City? Did Klopp know it well before joining Liverpool? Did Mourinho know it before joining Chelsea (the first time)? Did Wenger know it before joining Arsenal? Hell, even Fergie had never played or managed in England before joining us. So the best five managers in PL history all came here without any experience of the league previously.

In fact, out of the eleven managers who have won the PL, only one (Ranieri) had managed a previous English club before they were able to win it at a second. And just in general, it's much more common for a manager to come in from outside of England and work well at one of the top clubs than it is for someone to have worked their way up within the English pyramid.

Don't get me wrong, I have high hopes for McKenna in the future. And if INEOS actually do bring him in I'll be quite excited. But it's almost certainly too early for him, and personally I think his recent personal experience at the club would actually make it harder for him to succeed than help him. He was part of a regime that failed, and because of that the players would likely (either deliberately or subconsciously) not see him with the authority and respect that he needs. More time needs to pass so that he can come in for a fresh start.

FrankDrebin said:

I imagine he'll cost quite a bit.
But United fans in general don't seem to be in favour of bringing him in.

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To what this team and manager has cost us in the last two games 1 point from 6 in winning positions among countless other matches. The cost of missing out on Champions League and Europe in general. I'd give Simeone a chance because he's got character and passion. I'm picturing his reactions on the touch line and can you only imagine the dressing room. We are weak and so fragile none of the things you can say about Simeone.

sallycinnamin said:

To what this team and manager has cost us in the last two games 1 point from 6 in winning positions among countless other matches. The cost of missing out on Champions League and Europe in general. I'd give Simeone a chance because he's got character and passion. I'm picturing his reactions on the touch line and can you only imagine the dressing room. We are weak and so fragile none of the things you can say about Simeone.

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Yea, this is where I have come to. He is clearly the best out there that isn't named Guardiola or Klopp. Whether he would have any interest is another matter anyway.

sallycinnamin said:

To what this team and manager has cost us in the last two games 1 point from 6 in winning positions among countless other matches. The cost of missing out on Champions League and Europe in general. I'd give Simeone a chance because he's got character and passion. I'm picturing his reactions on the touch line and can you only imagine the dressing room. We are weak and so fragile none of the things you can say about Simeone.

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I would love Diego here.
What he's done with A. Madrid still seems to go under the radar.

He's got the drive, charisma, presence and tactical know-how to get the best out of certain players.

What's super depressing about the possibility of letting him go immediately is that you usually replace departing managers with their assistants for the immediate term. We did that with Ole and having Carrick in was refreshing in a way, however in this case we would be giving the job to Steve McClaren which may be even more disheartening than keeping ETH.

We obviously won't get any of the top managers to join us in an instant. We could have a shot at next tier PL managers joining immediately, the ones for whom this would represent a massive career opportunity, like Frank or O'Neil. Maybe that is the direction we should be taking.

However I do expect ETH to get a new contract before Summer with assurances that he's going to be trusted to rebuild the team, will be fully supported in the market and has a free pass for the upcoming season.

I think Simeone would struggle at United. His ranting and raving and hard task master shtick is really effective at Atletico because the players all know he is the most important person at the club and it is his way or the M-14 highway.

The players at United are now well-conditioned to know that if they are performing badly, they need only wait it out and the manager will be fired soon enough.

MadDogg said:

Why do they need to know the EPL well?

Did Pep know it well before joining City? Did Klopp know it well before joining Liverpool? Did Mourinho know it before joining Chelsea (the first time)? Did Wenger know it before joining Arsenal? Hell, even Fergie had never played or managed in England before joining us. So the best five managers in PL history all came here without any experience of the league previously.

In fact, out of the eleven managers who have won the PL, only one (Ranieri) had managed a previous English club before they were able to win it at a second. And just in general, it's much more common for a manager to come in from outside of England and work well at one of the top clubs than it is for someone to have worked their way up within the English pyramid.

Don't get me wrong, I have high hopes for McKenna in the future. And if INEOS actually do bring him in I'll be quite excited. But it's almost certainly too early for him, and personally I think his recent personal experience at the club would actually make it harder for him to succeed than help him. He was part of a regime that failed, and because of that the players would likely (either deliberately or subconsciously) not see him with the authority and respect that he needs. More time needs to pass so that he can come in for a fresh start.

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I used to be a firm supporter of your line of thought. Then I got fed up of

- United buying 5ft9 CBs who can't win a header or if they do they break and they spend months in the treatment room because their tiny little body can't handle the EPL physicality. The butcher got butchered
- United playing weird tactics that won't work in the EPL like for example playing two no 10s alongside Casemiro or playing Tyrion Lannister as CB only to end up having to rely on McT and Evans because it turned out that height and physicality is important in the EPL.
- Managers spending tens of millions on their mate from the farmer's market.
- Managers running the squad to the ground
- Managers failing to understand that the EPL is physical, played at high tempo and were every single game is a cup final. An Ajax manager think that a semi final in the CL is like winning the treble. How on earth can he understand that a game against West Ham will be the football equivalent of the landing of Normandy rather then an easy game just like Ajax vs Almere or Bayern vs Koln?

Don't take me wrong I am not closing the door to every single foreign manager but the EPL is the hardest and meanest football grinder there is at the moment and foreign managers will need to adapt to that. Such thing requires time and leaves room to mistake something the EPL will not grant you and United can't afford to give. FFS Chelsea has spent ridiculous amount of money and they are at 10th place. We did the same and we're 6th . It's not that different from the Serie A in the golden years were Inter came 1 point away from relegation despite having talent like Bergkamp, Zenga, Bergomi and Schillaci. Then of course there's a treacherous squad to take in consideration, players who can easily switch on and switch off when its more appropriate for them and who keep relying on the manager's good will up until they throw him under the bridge before he throws them himself. We need someone who knows these players and won't buy into their BS.

Sarni said:

What's super depressing about the possibility of letting him go immediately is that you usually replace departing managers with their assistants for the immediate term. We did that with Ole and having Carrick in was refreshing in a way, however in this case we would be giving the job to Steve McClaren which may be even more disheartening than keeping ETH.

We obviously won't get any of the top managers to join us in an instant. We could have a shot at next tier PL managers joining immediately, the ones for whom this would represent a massive career opportunity, like Frank or O'Neil. Maybe that is the direction we should be taking.

However I do expect ETH to get a new contract before Summer with assurances that he's going to be trusted to rebuild the team, will be fully supported in the market and has a free pass for the upcoming season.

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Difficult for United to do that given the financial penalties that will be incurred if they miss out on CL qualification two seasons in a row. They simply must qualify for the CL for 2025/26 - failure to do so not only sees them lose a further season's worth of big prize money, but also a reduction in sponsorship that the club can ill-afford.

Infra-red said:

I think Simeone would struggle at United. His ranting and raving and hard task master shtick is really effective at Atletico because the players all know he is the most important person at the club and it is his way or the M-14 highway.

The players at United are now well-conditioned to know that if they are performing badly, they need only wait it out and the manager will be fired soon enough.

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Well then every manager will fail here.

Jose until the end of the season.

Nagelsmann or De Zebri or McKenna (especially if he wins Championship) then.

Tom Van Persie said:

He got the Bayern job at what, 33? He's still a young coach, still plenty of time for him to grow and I'm sure he's learned a lot from his time at Bayern and is better off from that experience. And from what I've read the changes he wanted to make at Bayern were the right changes for the club moving forward but the board didn't back him on them which caused friction.

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Current United is a very horrible place to get your on the job learning. The spot light is constantly on the manager, there isn't 1 department that is functioning correctly and this squad is a rare combination of laziness, lack of talent, lack of athletism and treachery. Its basically the exact opposite of the treble side. Then one has to consider the EPL who is a proper meat grinder in terms of physicality, high tempo and games that are played as if its a constant cup final. This is not the Bundesliga were there's Bayern and, well, not really much else. Every game is taxing, competitive, cynical and tough.

Not to forget that Nagelsmann will have to join the club late, possibly in July. He'll have little time to adapt to the country and the squad. We need someone who accepts the role of HC, who knows the country, who knows the EPL, who knows United, which player he can really rely on and which ones are most likely to backstab him. That guy is Mckenna

FrankDrebin said:

Well then every manager will fail here.

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If by fail you mean fail to win the Premier League or Champions League then, yes, United don't look capable of that anymore, regardless of who is in the dugout.

I'm so fed up that I am even thinking that maybe there is some merit to Southgate....?!?!?

Perhaps he would at least get the English players back into performing, and be more solid defensively.
Where's the soap, I'll wash my mouth.

Toshey said:

Jose until the end of the season.

Nagelsmann or De Zebri or McKenna (especially if he wins Championship) then.

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Mourinho for a month would be funny, but I can't see the club doing it. Nagelsmann looks like he'll extend with Die Mannschaft and De Zerbi is Bayern bound I think. Amorim replaces Klopp.

If Ineos make a change this summer, it will be Potter.

Infra-red said:

Difficult for United to do that given the financial penalties that will be incurred if they miss out on CL qualification two seasons in a row. They simply must qualify for the CL for 2025/26 - failure to do so not only sees them lose a further season's worth of big prize money, but also a reduction in sponsorship that the club can ill-afford.

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We can't have this attitude anymore, it leads to the chronic short-termism that has screwed us again and again.

Ubik said:

We can't have this attitude anymore, it leads to the chronic short-termism that has screwed us again and again.

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I don't disagree too much, but given the club's finances, the higher-ups will certainly have this in mind. Two seasons of no CL in a row would be ruinous.

Would love us to go for Simone Inzaghi, his record in Italy is so impressive. But he probably wouldn't come and even if he wanted to, it would be costly to prise him away from Inter.

Toshey said:

Jose until the end of the season.

Nagelsmann or De Zebri or McKenna (especially if he wins Championship) then.

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Christ, i would much rather have Gary Neville in til the summer.

No way we are sacking ETH before the end of the season and probably wont at all if we win the FA Cup

Got a feeling next manager will be a stop gap one(1-2 years)
I don't see we go for another dark horse. But that's fine, as long as he has modern approach to football.

Infra-red said:

I don't disagree too much, but given the club's finances, the higher-ups will certainly have this in mind. Two seasons of no CL in a row would be ruinous.

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It's not going to bankrupt us or anything, we'll just have to get smarter with money. Which we need to do anyway. Get bigger contracts off the books and no ridiculous new ones, start actually accepting offers for consistently underperforming players. That's before we get to actually just making better signings, like not spending £45m on a keeper.

Can we bin this stupid manager performance clause in the future? (the whole ‘fail to qualify for CL’ clause). It feels like we’re the only team that operates in this bizarre way.

If the managers shit, yank him the feck out and get a new guy in. Giving him more time to fail does nothing.

Imagine relegation threatened clubs operating like this.
‘We can’t sack the manager now. It’s too expensive’
’But we‘re likely to go down, sir. We’ve picked up 1 point from our last 6 games and it’s only November’
’No, give him a chance, I want save some money’

sallycinnamin said:

To what this team and manager has cost us in the last two games 1 point from 6 in winning positions among countless other matches. The cost of missing out on Champions League and Europe in general. I'd give Simeone a chance because he's got character and passion. I'm picturing his reactions on the touch line and can you only imagine the dressing room. We are weak and so fragile none of the things you can say about Simeone.

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Getting the highest paid manager in world football out of a long contract - ain’t happening. Move on.

FrankDrebin said:

I would love Diego here.
What he's done with A. Madrid still seems to go under the radar.

He's got the drive, charisma, presence and tactical know-how to get the best out of certain players.

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He's also a fecking cnut who sets his teams up to be a bunch of cnuts. Would rather appoint Sean Dyche.

devilish said:

I used to be a firm supporter of your line of thought. Then I got fed up of

- United buying 5ft9 CBs who can't win a header or if they do they break and they spend months in the treatment room because their tiny little body can't handle the EPL physicality. The butcher got butchered
- United playing weird tactics that won't work in the EPL like for example playing two no 10s alongside Casemiro or playing Tyrion Lannister as CB only to end up having to rely on McT and Evans because it turned out that height and physicality is important in the EPL.
- Managers spending tens of millions on their mate from the farmer's market.
- Managers failing to understand that the EPL is physical, played at high tempo and were every single game is a cup final. An Ajax manager think that a semi final in the CL is like winning the treble. How on earth can he understand that a game against West Ham will be the football equivalent of the landing of Normandy rather then an easy game just like Ajax vs Almere or Bayern vs Koln?

Don't take me wrong I am not closing the door to every single foreign manager but the EPL is the hardest and meanest football grinder there is at the moment and foreign managers will need to adapt to that. Such thing requires time and leaves room to mistake something the EPL will not grant you and United can't afford to give. FFS Chelsea has spent ridiculous amount of money and they are at 10th place. We did the same and we're 6th . It's not that different from the Serie A in the golden years were Inter came 1 point away from relegation despite having talent like Bergkamp, Zenga, Bergomi and Schillaci. Then of course there's a treacherous squad to take in consideration, players who can easily switch on and switch off when its more appropriate for them and who keep relying on the manager's good will up until they throw him under the bridge before he throws them himself. We need someone who knows these players and won't buy into their BS.

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I'm certainly not against a manager with PL experience getting the job, but I do think it's way down the list of importance.

I mean, the managers we tried with PL experience (either as a manager or a player) failed, and both Moyes and Mourinho were just as guilty of spending the money on their mates who didn't work out. You mention Chelsea, but they've been trying managers with PL experience and they've all failed significantly worse than the ones they've tried who haven't had that experience. All of Liverpool's best managers over the last 20 years have come from outside of England, while all their PL experienced managers (with the arguable exception of Rodgers) failed badly.

A lot of your points stem from the manager having too much power in the transfer market (and our own scouting system seemingly not set up properly). With the new structure that should no longer be the case. I'm all for getting a manager with PL experience (De Zerbi or Ange for instance, although even they have less than three years of experience between them), but by far the most important aspect is getting the 'best' manager to change the playing style to whatever the board demands.

DON’T PANIC ™ said:

No way we are sacking ETH before the end of the season and probably wont at all if we win the FA Cup

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I don’t understand this view, it’s becoming more and more apparent he’s not up to the job, we have new people in charge which normally results in them bringing in their own appointment, I don’t see why Ineos who’s sole job at the moment is the footballing side, would just stick by him.

JB7 said:

He's also a fecking cnut who sets his teams up to be a bunch of cnuts. Would rather appoint Sean Dyche.

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No you wouldn't.

If we’re going English give it to McKenner, if not, give it to Nagelsmund.

devilish said:

The spot light is constantly on the manager, there isn't 1 department that is functioning correctly and this squad is a rare combination of laziness, lack of talent, lack of athletism and treachery.

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You forgot a clueless DoF/CEO above the manager.

And do you know what we just described? Nagelsmann's working conditions at Bayern. He has experience with such a situation, it wouldn't be completely new for him. So less learning required in that regard than for most other candidates for the United job. Still Bayern operated at a higher level because the rot didn't go on for so long, but it was similar.

Donut said:

If we’re going English give it to McKenner, if not, give it to Nagelsmund.

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McKenna is from Northern Ireland.

DON’T PANIC ™ said:

No way we are sacking ETH before the end of the season and probably wont at all if we win the FA Cup

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I think he's a dead man walking if he truly believes the shit he's spouting in his post match interviews. Pointless to sack him now as we won't get our preferred target unless it's someone currently out of a job. CL next season is gone and so will he be in the summer.

stefan92 said:

You forgot a clueless DoF/CEO above the manager.

And do you know what we just described? Nagelsmann's working conditions at Bayern. He has experience with such a situation, it wouldn't be completely new for him. So less learning required in that regard than for most other candidates for the United job. Still Bayern operated at a higher level because the rot didn't go on for so long, but it was similar.

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You would know a lot more about Nagelsmann than most here I am sure. How is his media handling? Does he have different ways of playing, or is he married to certain style? Also interested in how he handled the pressure situations when at Bayern?

Would you consider him to be a top coach now, or someone who is still potential that can reach that level?

FrankDrebin said:

No you wouldn't.

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To be fair they could have my season ticket back if they support either of them.

fallengt said:

Got a feeling next manager will be a stop gap one(1-2 years)
I don't see we go for another dark horse. But that's fine, as long as he has modern approach to football.

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That's probably the right attitude.

We need to get to a point where it's relatively easy to transition between managers. Obviously it's never perfect, but having a general ethos throughout the club where the playing roster is built and trained towards a rough playstyle gives any incoming manager the best possible chance of success. Not what we've been doing over the last decade with managers of significantly different styles and expectations.

Because of how bad things are here at the moment, the top managers will likely prioritise other clubs where they feel they can more easily succeed. It's not a guarantee and there may be one who wants to take on the challenge (and potential rewards) of being the one to turn things around here. But more likely we will have to take the chance on someone who is less likely to truly successful, but who we're confident can at least play his part in moving us the right way and getting us close to where we need to be. And obviously we hope that the guy we choose actually does step up and is successful himself. If not, then in two years or so we're in a stronger position to then hire a truly top manager who can make the necessary changes and fine tune things instead of the complete rebuild that we need right now.

MadDogg said:

I'm certainly not against a manager with PL experience getting the job, but I do think it's way down the list of importance.

I mean, the managers we tried with PL experience (either as a manager or a player) failed, and both Moyes and Mourinho were just as guilty of spending the money on their mates who didn't work out. You mention Chelsea, but they've been trying managers with PL experience and they've all failed significantly worse than the ones they've tried who haven't had that experience. All of Liverpool's best managers over the last 20 years have come from outside of England, while all their PL experienced managers (with the arguable exception of Rodgers) failed badly.

A lot of your points stem from the manager having too much power in the transfer market (and our own scouting system seemingly not set up properly). With the new structure that should no longer be the case. I'm all for getting a manager with PL experience (De Zerbi or Ange for instance, although even they have less than three years of experience between them), but by far the most important aspect is getting the 'best' manager to change the playing style to whatever the board demands.

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As I said in normal circumstances I'll have no complaints to what you're saying. I am often accused to be British phobe (which I feel its unfair but I certainly don't have a pro British bias) and my first option was initially Inzaghi. However these are not normal circumstances. In fact we have a mix of

a- an EPL that is getting tougher by the season. Its physical, its played at high tempo, its cynical and ruthless. Each game is becoming a cup final and every point is fought for
b- we have a club with no football structure. Everything apart from the academy is not functioning. That include recruitment, fitness, coaching and training. I've yet to see a club were the entire football structure is being built in a matter of months.
c- we have the most frustrating and the most treacherous squad I've ever seen in all my life.

Add those 3 together and the though of Mckenna makes full sense. He's an extremely promising manager who had done wonders at academy, League 1 and Championship level. He already knows United, our squad, which players to keep, which players to get rid and which players to gamble on in the academy. On top of that his tactics is compatible to our style (a 4-2-3-1) and differently to a system manager he can switch things around. He's got allegiance to no one (no Ajax players or Chelsea players) but most important he will come in and hit the ground running. That's crucial in a squad were ownership, CEO, Sporting director, technical director, fitness people, squad and possibly the tea lady and the window cleaners are changing.

FrankDrebin said:

I would love Diego here.
What he's done with A. Madrid still seems to go under the radar.

He's got the drive, charisma, presence and tactical know-how to get the best out of certain players.

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He plays gallingly awful football so would lose on the "United way" from the get go. Not saying that is right or wrong, but it is true that a lot of fans wouldn't accept his uber defensive approach.

stefan92 said:

You forgot a clueless DoF/CEO above the manager.

And do you know what we just described? Nagelsmann's working conditions at Bayern. He has experience with such a situation, it wouldn't be completely new for him. So less learning required in that regard than for most other candidates for the United job. Still Bayern operated at a higher level because the rot didn't go on for so long, but it was similar.

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I have followed football for 40 years now. I followed well run clubs and I saw some horribly run ones as well. However I never witnessed United's situation. We're in the toughest league in the world, we have a shit squad who lack athleticism, attitude and talent and is ridiculously paid. FFP is clipping our wings and we're set to change every single part of the football structure from board members right to CEO, Sporting director, technical director, manager, fitness team, doctor and possibly the tea lady as well. Everyone is coming in different time. Nothing prepares you to that.

That's why Mckenna makes sense. First of all he's the most promising manager in Britain at the moment. The EPL is not alien to him. Secondly he knows what to expect at United, which players to trust and which ones to get rid having worked across most levels. Finally he's no system manager. He can switch things around.

Shinjch said:

You would know a lot more about Nagelsmann than most here I am sure. How is his media handling? Does he have different ways of playing, or is he married to certain style? Also interested in how he handled the pressure situations when at Bayern?

Would you consider him to be a top coach now, or someone who is still potential that can reach that level?

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Lot's of questions... I try my best to answer them, but keep in mind, I always followed him out of general interest, not because I closely followed his clubs, so I might miss some stuff or see things different than for example Bayern fans.

Media: Let's say, they always get an answer. Even for questions that are not directly football related, and for example his "interesting" dressing style always stirred some yellow press interest. That might sometimes even have been too much, on the other hand does it take media attention and pressure away from the players which I generally see as a positive. More critical probably is how close he is to certain media. His girlfriend works for BILD, not everybody at Bayern liked that afaik, because of course this is a setup that is a risk for leaking internal information. But in general I say he doesn't have problems with the media, he just sometimes doesn't know when he should shut up, the little know-it-all

Playing style: He values a high energy style, but incorporates a reasonable amount of possession play. I think a bit like current Klopp is a good comparison. But to a certain degree he is willing and able to adjust the team formation and philosophy. For example while clearly valuing aggressively moving midfielders in general, he decided to drop Goretzka/Kimmich from the German midfield (Goretzka is completely out, Kimmich shifted to RB), who would probably be his dream midfield duo when in form, because they simply are out of form. Now he builds the team around Kroos and about how Kroos does orchestrate matches. Which is a much different style, but can be just as good.

Pressure situations: In general I think pretty well. Remember, he lead Hoffenheim to surviving a relegation battle when nobody expected that to be possible, that was his first Bundesliga job. Sometimes he might talk too much about certain things (see above), but it rarely feels like he lacked answer when under pressure. Especially what happened at Bayern after him (and in the national team with him and how he is dealing with the current Bayern players there) points towards him not being backed properly to make tough calls instead of not knowing the right answers.

YikesSchmeics said:

He plays gallingly awful football so would lose on the "United way" from the get go. Not saying that is right or wrong, but it is true that a lot of fans wouldn't accept his uber defensive approach.

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This whole “United way” stuff is a steaming pile of shite and the sooner it disappears the better.