Thanks for the info.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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Frosty
Logical and sensible but turns women gay
Looks like a lot of Malawians work in Israel and send parts of their salary back to the country:Interesting!
What about Malawi though?
https://www.voanews.com/a/malawi-parliament-allows-labor-export-to-israel-/7490863.html
https://www.newarab.com/analysis/exposing-malawis-dangerous-secret-labour-deal-israel
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I would guess that recognition is from Enver Hoxha's dictatorship.Also I think Albania have recognised the State of Palestine, unlike most of Europe. So this is a fairly complicated position they seem to adopt
India was the first non-Arab country to recognise the PLO, but that was a totally different ruling ideology, which explains why we abstained on it this time.
Belgium is an interesting and admirable case, having been one of the most brutal colonial powers in the 20th century to apparently learning the lessons of its crimes and recently becoming perhaps the strongest principled Western voice in support of Palestinians. I'm unfamiliar with what sort of reckoning they would've had with their colonial past, but in a world where broadly speaking past colonisers support Israel and past colonised support Palestinians, something must have been done right in Belgium.Yes that's one way to put it. Obviously a lot of countries in Western Europe and North America were imperialist, or have colonial roots, or in recent history, and some have that mindset to this day (and seemingly have no urge to stop).
Ireland were on the wrong end of that and so can speak with some experience and moral authority on the subject in a way their nearest neighbours cannot.
Giggsyking
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The biggest demonstrations were in Baghdad and Sanaa. In Iraq both the public and the State view of the conflict align. Iraq stil is the leading voice of opposition to diplomatic normalisation with Israel in the arab league. You probably not in the circle of Arabic news, but Iraq is a leading country for Palestinian rights. That said, Iraq has a big problem no other arab country has, they literally have all the state wealth in one account in the American federal bank, the revenue of every single drop of oil Iraq sells will be deposited in this account that the US control and can freeze whenever they want, they could starve Iraqis in a heartbeat if they want to, and they have waved this flag few times when Iraq and the US hit a disagreement.
Needs to be a permanent ceasefire, a proper effort needs to be made to rebuild and stabilise Gaza and you can't do that with pauses. Even Ireland which is looked at as very anti-israel by lots of people wouldn't call for an immediate and permanent ceasefire (I realise I didn't initially say permanent, sorry for being short with you, I meant to add permanent), which for me has been the only appropriate thing to do for quite a long time.I wouldn't want to waste your time arguing about pauses Vs ceasefires but maybe Google the question 'which countries voted for a ceasefire UN' and gaze at the list of your western oppressors when you have a moment
As far as I can find, the only western nation that has called for a permanent ceasefire is France as of 2 weeks ago.
Autocratic leaders can be like that I guess, completely disconnected from their populations and totally self interested, makes them very useful to regimes like the US, it also makes a common stance far more likely but only to cater to the wishes of the US.That's alway been the plan. Bribe the ones you can, destroy the ones you can't. Iran is the last man standing in the game and the next target on the list.
It still doesn't change the fact the Arab countries do hold significant power, if they decided to adopt a common stance. But the only thing they ever agreed to is to disagree.
Very true. That's one more non-cooperative major Arab player gone with the wind. Arab Spring, my fecking backside.
Yup, what's happened to the Arab world is repulsive and it's so frustrating knowing that there's no change on the horizon.
Amir
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There are a whole lot of unknown factors looking a few months ahead so it's impossible to tell where this one's going. What happens with the war in Gaza, what happens in the north, what happens to Netanyahu and his govenment (my best guess: Nothing. They'll hold on to power, no matter the cost - to Israel as well), who wins the US election. The US inauguration is nine months away and by then...Israel is the West's/US's ONLY real friend in the middle -east region. Subsequently there has been since 1948 a clear 'life -line' extended to Israel from the US and from the most of Europe. Therefore short of dragging everyone into WW3, Israel knows the West and the US has its back.
However, the IDF's inability to clear out Hamas 'tooth & nail' and the subsequent destruction this is visiting on the Palestinian people in Gaza in particular, means that the 'life-line' will start to get reeled in much faster, but not fully in, until after the Presidential Election in the US and even then it will depend on what interventions Russia and China take up.
The Corinthian
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Yeah, that's absolutely not what I was thinking or getting at. Although if I knew trophies were on offer...I just don't see what it adds to the debate trying to be triumphant and going for the "where are the apologists now", as if you get a trophy.
I most certainly wasn't being triumphant at all. Your comprehension of my post is spot on.I don't believe he was being triumphant though - I read it as 'How can anyone that supports Israel defend this next thing' (but I'll let him speak for himself).
As other have said, it's disgusting that the bar to be reached for them to turn against Israel and the IDF, even if it's just for a little while, is the deaths of Westeners, especially 3 British security personnel.So finally the western media is calling out Israel, wonder if it has anything to do with westerners being killed? The systemic racism is disgusting, all it took was 7 westerners, showing the lack of respect for the Palestinian people that these cnuts have.
It's been on the news here non stop for a few days now, even on CNN international and it's absolutely fecking sickening considering the death, destruction and famine that's been happening for months and the majority of acts absolutely being war crimes. It just makes me sick.
It's only the Earthquake in New York today that has taken over CNN news reports.
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Giggsyking
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Iker Quesadillas
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I think it's less bad than that.So finally the western media is calling out Israel, wonder if it has anything to do with westerners being killed? The systemic racism is disgusting, all it took was 7 westerners, showing the lack of respect for the Palestinian people that these cnuts have.
For a while lots of people / entities have known that this shit looks really bad and they've been looking for a way out. This incident gives them a reason to do so.
The reason should have been dead Palestinians, destroyed infrastructure, aid being denied, famine being induced and the list goes on and on, that's way more than enough. They should have been covering what's really been happening to the Palestinians for years.I think it's less bad than that.
For a while lots of people / entities have known that this shit looks really bad and they've been looking for a way out. This incident gives them a reason to do so.
Giggsyking
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The interventions are piling on.
the_cliff
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Algeria have stood up for Palestine from a diplomatic side, especially their work in the UNSC. However, the majority of Arab countries and their governments are still pro Palestine, especially the non GCC states. The only GCC countries that are really openly pro Palestine are Kuwait and Qatar. People may say a lot of things about the Qataris but Al Jazeera really brought to light a lot of the atrocities committed by Israel this war. There's a reason Bibi has been very critical of Qatar in his speeches and has kicked out Al Jazeera journalists and even tried to kill them.That's alway been the plan. Bribe the ones you can, destroy the ones you can't. Iran is the last man standing in the game and the next target on the list.
It still doesn't change the fact the Arab countries do hold significant power, if they decided to adopt a common stance. But the only thing they ever agreed to is to disagree.
Very true. That's one more non-cooperative major Arab player gone with the wind. Arab Spring, my fecking backside.
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The UAE hasn't suspended ties btw, It's more of a cut back on relations and not a complete cancellation of relations as some are claiming.
There's a lot more to the Arab relationship with Palestine than meets the eye though and it's a long discussion probably for another thread. Especially the UAEs role in this.
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Idxomer
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Not exactly breaking news but seeing that the IOF admitted to killing one of the hostages with a helicopter on the road to Gaza. There are at least another 26 who died similarly.
The Corinthian
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Amir
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Among other things, you've got to love his total lack of ability to answer anything about his govenment's failings. Six months later, "we will investigate".Wow, quite a remarkable watch.
2mufc0
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Boycotts making a difference it seems.
However, this is a great opportunity for some companies in those countries step up and fill in their spot.
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Redplane
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I wonder how much McDonald's Corp itself really had to do with that considering most are independently owned franchises. Also, i have a hard time believing it would not find a way to continue to operate even under a diff name. Look at all the companies that were caught red handed still operating in Russia under other names despite announcing they d pull out.Wonder if they have any restaurants in the occupied territories.
However, this is a great opportunity for some companies in those countries step up and fill in their spot.
Not sure what the numbers are overseas, but in the US, I believe upwards of 90% of McDonalds are franchise owned.I wonder how much McDonald's Corp itself really had to do with that considering most are independently owned franchises. Also, i have a hard time believing it would not find a way to continue to operate even under a diff name. Look at all the companies that were caught red handed still operating in Russia under other names despite announcing they d pull out.
The Corinthian
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They didn’t have a lot to do with it at all. The brand was damaged when independent franchisees based in Israel began to give free food out to IDF. This massively affected their worldwide reputation. A great example of people voting with their feet and hence McDonalds had to take decisive action. We’ve seen similar with Starbucks who have had to put out a few statements saying they’re neutral but they’re still getting boycotted.I wonder how much McDonald's Corp itself really had to do with that considering most are independently owned franchises. Also, i have a hard time believing it would not find a way to continue to operate even under a diff name. Look at all the companies that were caught red handed still operating in Russia under other names despite announcing they d pull out.
Idxomer
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I doubt anyone can have a definitive answer. We don't even have a clear idea of what the situation will be after that or who is going to be in control of the strip apart from maybe Israel. The rebuild could fall on Qatar, UAE, or Saudia with some help from others. The US will naturally be part of it with the extent of that depending on the results of the elections. Will the settlements come back? That's also another part of the equation.What do you think will happen to Gaza in terms of rebuilding infrastructure once the fighting ends ?
It will be a long process considering the extent of the destruction that happened.
I can't imagine the settlements will come back since the US will and definitely the Arab states you mentioned, will be against it. I'm guessing a large swath of Israeli society will be against it as well. Obviously that could easily change if Trump wins the election, at which point it will be a bat signal for Israeli hardliners to proceed with settlements.I doubt anyone can have a definitive answer. We don't even have a clear idea of what the situation will be after that or who is going to be in control of the strip apart from maybe Israel. The rebuild could fall on Qatar, UAE, or Saudia with some help from others. The US will naturally be part of it with the extent of that depending on the results of the elections. Will the settlements come back? That's also another part of the equation.
It will be a long process considering the extent of the destruction that happened.
Giggsyking
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Well Wesley Clark want to "temporarily relocate Palestanians" ie ethnic cleansing. And then bring the European companies to profit from the war.What do you think will happen to Gaza in terms of rebuilding infrastructure once the fighting ends ?
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Well Wesley Clark want to "temporarily relocate Palestanians" ie ethnic cleansing. And then bring the European companies to profit from the war.
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It's a never ending circle of shit where the rich get richer from the suffering of others.
War is big business and as before in Iraq and Afghanistan companies are lined up to offer their services, be granted huge contracts and make billions.
First in line are the weapons contractors and manafacturers who are reaping the rewards of everything being given to Israel and Ukraine. Both are being given huge amounts of weapons and equipment. Some old that needs to be replaced and lots more new as well.
Next in line will be the construction companies, emergency and water companies, surveyors, engineers & consultants lining up to help with the planning and rebuilding and of course then you have the private security companies contracted to protect them all. Behind all of this you have those lobbying and granting contracts and finally the shareholders who just sit back and watch the cash roll in. Obviously many politicians are involved too. All the while you have millions suffering and on the brink of starvation.
It's fecking grotesque and makes me feel sick to my stomach.
VorZakone
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So out of curiosity...let's not give Ukraine weapons then?It's a never ending circle of shit where the rich get richer from the suffering of others.
War is big business and as before in Iraq and Afghanistan companies are lined up to offer their services, be granted huge contracts and make billions.
First in line are the weapons contractors and manafacturers who are reaping the rewards of everything being given to Israel and Ukraine. Both are being given huge amounts of weapons and equipment. Some old that needs to be replaced and lots more new as well.
Next in line will be the construction companies, emergency and water companies, surveyors, engineers & consultants lining up to help with the planning and rebuilding and of course then you have the private security companies contracted to protect them all. Behind all of this you have those lobbying and granting contracts and finally the shareholders who just sit back and watch the cash roll in. Obviously many politicians are involved too. All the while you have millions suffering and on the brink of starvation.
It's fecking grotesque and makes me feel sick to my stomach.
No, I didn't say that. Just pointing out that, especially with the conflicts in the Middle East, Iraq, Afghanistan and now Gaza there was and is going to be huge amounts money made on the backs of the suffering of others. Again highlighting war is big business so while we are all focused on the tragedy of it all, some will be rubbing their hands and just thinking of what they are and will be making from it. The weapons manafacturers are hardly going to be complaining about the billions being sent to Ukraine or to Israel.So out of curiosity...let's not give Ukraine weapons then?
I think everyone should be backing Ukraine as much as possible. But I don't think a single penny or cent of money or weapons or equipment should be sent to Israel. In fact quite the opposite, we should send it all to the rebuilding of Palestine instead.
I'm seriously worried about the future of Gaza and its people because it's been absolutely devastated and the majority of Palestinians won't have anything to return to as it's all been destroyed. When things are rebuilt they won't be able to afford to return anyway because I can't honestly see it being rebuilt and then given out for free. I also can't see the entire area being made in to a giant camp site either. We have already seen some of the plans for luxury rebuilds and although I've never been, I've seen lots of film showing Gaza and for the most part it looked absolutely stunning, although obviously living conditions were diabolical and many living in poverty, but only due to the forced conditond imposed on the people.
The Israeli's might not succeed in totally wiping the Palestinians out but when this finally does end what will they have left? Their future looks incredibly bleak. Will they just be forced to a small corner and be staring at a future of makeshift refugee camps and temporary shelter type accomodation? I honestly can't remember seeing such destruction of this scale before or where such a large population has been forcee to relocate.
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Herman Toothrot
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I'm pretty sure that a maimed and murdered population won't just politely return to their newly built Gaza homes and hold no grudge against those who did the maiming and murdering. Also, the last people I would trust to look after my land while I "temporarily" move to Egypt would be Israel.Well Wesley Clark want to "temporarily relocate Palestanians" ie ethnic cleansing. And then bring the European companies to profit from the war.
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I'm pretty sure that a maimed and murdered population won't just politely return to their newly built Gaza homes and hold no grudge against those who did the maiming and murdering. Also, the last people I would trust to look after my land while I "temporarily" move to Egypt would be Israel.
Exactly, just imagine the amount of people now growing up with an even bigger hatred of Israel than before. Plotting any type of revenge. Say for instance those luxury waterside apartments were being built for rich Israelis and foreigners, would the Palestinians just sit back and watch it happen? Of course not. They would attack them at every given opportunity if given the chance.
How long would it take to rebuild an area the size of Gaza anyway? All those beautiful and historic buildings gone, the hospitals, schools, museums etc, all that history and culture just turned to rubble... It's beyond anything I've ever seen in my lifetime. Darfur, Bosnia and Rwanda being the main examples I can think of in terms of brutality, but as for actual total destruction I think Gaza must be the worst.
It's simply heartbreaking just thinking about the last 75 odd years as it is, but events since October are just unfathomable. Honestly it brings me to tears the more I see and think about it all. The suffering is just inexcusable and it's one thing reacting with bombing or a ground invasion, but the total devastation of the area, coupled with the cruelty, sniping of kids and starving people at food drop areas, moving people to and then bombing refugee camps and the starvation of the entire population. It's even more difficult looking at what type of future could be possible. I just can't put in to words how upsetting and disgusting it is, and that's made even worse as the world has pretty much just sat back and let it happen, some even supporting and funding it.
I've banned the topic from being discussed in my pubs now because I don't think I would have many customers left, if any at all because even still now the majority of people I've heard discuss it are either totally fecking clueless or completely heartless.
Herman Toothrot
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Yeah, I just don't see how this ends. The cycle.of hatred will only get worse and spread around the world. The last six months has birthed several generations of terrorists. People will die in New York and London because the west, whether through guilt or otherwise, didn't do anything until it was too late.Exactly, just imagine the amount of people now growing up with an even bigger hatred of Israel than before. Plotting any type of revenge. Say for instance those luxury waterside apartments were being built for rich Israelis and foreigners, would the Palestinians just sit back and watch it happen? Of course not. They would attack them at every given opportunity if given the chance.
How long would it take to rebuild an area the size of Gaza anyway? All those beautiful and historic buildings gone, the hospitals, schools, museums etc, all that history and culture just turned to rubble... It's beyond anything I've ever seen in my lifetime. Darfur, Bosnia and Rwanda being the main examples I can think of in terms of brutality, but as for actual total destruction I think Gaza must be the worst.
It's simply heartbreaking just thinking about the last 75 odd years as it is, but events since October are just unfathomable. Honestly it brings me to tears the more I see and think about it all. The suffering is just inexcusable and it's one thing reacting with bombing or a ground invasion, but the total devastation of the area, coupled with the cruelty, sniping of kids and starving people at food drop areas, moving people to and then bombing refugee camps and the starvation of the entire population. It's even more difficult looking at what type of future could be possible. I just can't put in to words how upsetting and disgusting it is, and that's made even worse as the world has pretty much just sat back and let it happen, some even supporting and funding it.
I've banned the topic from being discussed in my pubs now because I don't think I would have many customers left, if any at all because even still now the majority of people I've heard discuss it are either totally fecking clueless or completely heartless.
That_Bloke
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It will only end when the international community grows a conscience and intervene, as a peaceful resolution is not in the hands of these two peoples anymore. If not, Palestine will disappear.Yeah, I just don't see how this ends. The cycle.of hatred will only get worse and spread around the world. The last six months has birthed several generations of terrorists. People will die in New York and London because the west, whether through guilt or otherwise, didn't do anything until it was too late.
You're also right about the increased risk of terrorist attacks, although ISIS is currently doing a remarkable job of only striking Israel's and the West's enemies.
You'd think they'd be all over it and use Gaza for their own psychopathic interests, but it interestingly doesn't seem to the case. They never uttered a single word in favor of Palestine.
gfactor86
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Unless Israelis can dispose of Netanyahu then there's not much hope here.This reminds me of the "McNamara fallacy" in Vietnam. Hey boss, we killed another 30 VC today.
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crazy that in 6 months he's been unable to achieve many of his goals.
He's probably spent upwards of $5b to flatten Gaza.
kill 30,000 people
created the next generation of Hamas
Alienated his closest allies
created a new generation of people globally that hate israel
Made Jews outside of Israel more unsafe.
he has to go
ManUtd1999
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And he won’t go… because Israelis want him, just like they wanted him over the past 15 years (and in the 1990s).Unless Israelis can dispose of Netanyahu then there's not much hope here.
crazy that in 6 months he's been unable to achieve many of his goals.
He's probably spent upwards of $5b to flatten Gaza.
kill 30,000 people
created the next generation of Hamas
Alienated his closest allies
created a new generation of people globally that hate israel
Made Jews outside of Israel more unsafe.
he has to go
He may lose the next election (if there’s any), but he can always return to power. Israel is a right-wing country. In fact, few parties that formed a coalition to push him out three years ago were from the right. They didn’t get him out because of his policies towards the Palestinians but because of domestic issues and personal reasons/interests.
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