Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Amir]

He's a politician. He is a shitbag, but he's behaving just like any other politician. If there is an election today, the next guy will be more extreme than Netanyahu. It's Israel that needs to carry this stain, not just Netanyahu.

I'm not denying it, but being a politician doesn't mean you just go on a murderous war because you think the public wants it.

David Ben Gurion once said, I believe, that a leader does what his country needs, not what it wants.

 

[Amir]

According to the polling, if an election was held today Benny Gantz would be PM. Not such a significant change from Netanyahu in most practical terms, but certainly not more extreme. And the new coalition itself would be less extreme and possibly more susceptible to pressure from abroad and the hostage-family protest movement at home. Although Gantz and some other prospective members of that coalition are heavily implicated in the current carnage.

While it would not lead to a two-state solution or something, Gantz as PM and the coalition he will form would definitely calm everything down.

But there's no election on the cards. And by the time that does happens, who knows how the political map would look like. Gantz is likely to lose a lot of voters to new players on the scene.

 

[Amir]

Let’s see, the protests are picking up in size and intensity in recent days. I really really doubt Israel will be waiting that long for the next round of elections.

I don't know if it will take until November of 2026, but I don't believe the protests will change much. The coalition parties and members are self centered and have everything to lose in an election. I think that they won't give a damn even if 90% of the poluation ends up protesting.

 

[Giggsyking]

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[2cents]

I don't know if it will take until November of 2026, but I don't believe the protests will change much. The coalition parties and members are self centered and have everything to lose in an election. I think that they won't give a damn even if 90% of the poluation ends up protesting.

There will surely be a commission of enquiry into October 7th launched as soon as this war ends which will likely be quite devastating for everyone that was in government on that day. Obviously it will take a while to play out but it’s difficult to see how Netanyahu could somehow survive it.

 

[Giggsyking]

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Germany should be held accountable of complicity in war crimes.

 

[Giggsyking]

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[Amir]

There will surely be a commission of enquiry into October 7th launched as soon as this war ends which will likely be quite devastating for everyone that was in government on that day. Obviously it will take a while to play out but it’s difficult to see how Netanyahu could somehow survive it.

So far, despite numerous questions about the subject, Netanyahu has failed to even promise that he'll form such a commission. In fact, unlike previous PM's, Netanyahu has never allowed the launch of a commission of enquiry during his many years in office - despite at least two disasters that cost the lives of dozens.

The govenment that was in power for a short tiime in 2021/22 without him ended up launching such a commission for one of those disasters (A Hillsbrough like disaster at a religious site in which over 40 people died). The commission recently filed its report and criticised Netanyahu massively. He didn't care, and claimed its motives were political because it was launched by the previous govenment.

BTW: The people who died were all Orthodox. Despite that, the Orthodox parties who are working with Netanyahu also didn't want such a commission.

Those people just do not care about anyone but themselves. They are twisted and vile.

 

[2cents]

So far, despite numerous questions about the subject, Netanyahu has failed to even promise that he'll form such a commission. In fact, unlike previous PM's, Netanyahu has never allowed the launch of a commission of enquiry during his many years in office - despite at least two disasters that cost the lives of dozens.

The govenment that was in power for a short tiime in 2021/22 without him ended up launching such a commission for one of those disasters (A Hillsbrough like disaster at a religious site in which over 40 people died). The commission recently filed its report and criticised Netanyahu massively. He didn't care, and claimed its motives were political because it was launched by the previous govenment.

BTW: The people who died were all Orthodox. Despite that, the Orthodox parties who are working with Netanyahu also didn't want such a commission.

Those people just do not care about anyone but themselves. They are twisted and vile.

I think there will inevitably be a commission, this is a national question more akin (but on an even bigger scale) to what produced the Yom Kippur war commission or the Sabra and Shatila commission that ended the political lives of Meir and Begin respectively, rather than a failure impacting a specific section of the population which, let’s face it, many people don’t really like. There’s no way Israel doesn’t hold those responsible to account on this, it’s the greatest governmental failure in the history of the state.

 

[That_Bloke]

While it would not lead to a two-state solution or something, Gantz as PM and the coalition he will form would definitely calm everything down.

But there's no election on the cards. And by the time that does happens, who knows how the political map would look like. Gantz is likely to lose a lot of voters to new players on the scene.

You don't see the massive contradiction here? Keep the status quo until it explodes again in Israel''s face?

 

[Amir]

I think there will inevitably be a commission, this is a national question more akin (but on an even bigger scale) to what produced the Yom Kippur war commission or the Sabra and Shatila commission that ended the political lives of Meir and Begin respectively, rather than a failure impacting a specific section of the population which, let’s face it, many people don’t really like. There’s no way Israel doesn’t hold those responsible to account on this, it’s the greatest governmental failure in the history of the state.

Standards in Israeli politics are so different now than in the 70s or 80s. Anyhow, even if a commission is formed, there are different types. In the ones you've mentioned - the highest level of commissions - the members were chosen by the president of the Supreme Court. So Netanyahu could opt to a lesser commission that will be appointed by the govenment or by the Knesset and will influenced by the politicians.

Anyhow, even if there is such a commission - it will take ages. And with the way Israeli politics and public are nowadays, I'm not sure how much influence its judgement will have. Just like the one about the diasters I mentioned. It was already brushed away.

 

[Amir]

You don't see the massive contradiction here? Keep the status quo until it explodes again in Israel''s face?

Yes, but I'm being realistic. We have to put one leg after the other and right now we need to calm things down and maybe build a little trust before we can even dream of making a substantial move.

 

[Giggsyking]

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Steal the land, steal the Gas.

 

[2cents]

Standards in Israeli politics are so different now than in the 70s or 80s. Anyhow, even if a commission is formed, there are different types. In the ones you've mentioned - the highest level of commissions - the members were chosen by the president of the Supreme Court. So Netanyahu could opt to a lesser commission that will be appointed by the govenment or by the Knesset and will influenced by the politicians.

Anyhow, even if there is such a commission - it will take ages. And with the way Israeli politics and public are nowadays, I'm not sure how much influence its judgement will have. Just like the one about the diasters I mentioned. It was already brushed away.

Well we’ll have to wait and see. The two commissions I mentioned were able to publish their findings within months, not years, of being launched. And this one should have been launched on 8th October.

The main problem as I see it is ending this war as soon as possible somehow. The hostage-families seem to be the best means of exerting internal pressure in that direction, and once that happens things may start to look and feel different. I think it’s probably too soon to reliably assess exactly how Israeli politics emerges from this.

 

[That_Bloke]

Yes, but I'm being realistic. We have to put one leg after the other and right now we need to calm things down and maybe build a little trust before we can even dream of making a substantial move.

Fair point.

 

[Giggsyking]

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Wow, he is a joke.

 

[The Corinthian]

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[Giggsyking]

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[Amir]

Well we’ll have to wait and see. The two commissions I mentioned were able to publish their findings within months, not years, of being launched. And this one should have been launched on 8th October.

And yet, the man who should launch it is not even willing to say it will be launched. Just that there's be some sort of enquiry.

The main problem as I see it is ending this war as soon as possible somehow. The hostage-families seem to be the best means of exerting internal pressure in that direction,

Not all of the families pull in the same direction. Only a few are really attacking the govenment and calling for Netanyahu's head.

As for the war... In some ways it's over. There aren't many IDF soldiers left in Gaza (though that obviously doesn't help the locals). But obviously Netanyahu continues to promise more action. He can't afford for this to officiall end.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

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Germany should be held accountable of complicity in war crimes.

This is the second genocide in just 100 years Germany has been directly involved in.

My history isn't great, was Germany ever a big colonial power?

 

[Frosty]

Second genocide in just 100 years Germany had been directly involved in.

My history isn't great, was Germany ever a big colonial power?

Look up the Hereros in what was then South West Africa.

 

[Giggsyking]

This is the second genocide in just 100 years Germany has been directly involved in.

My history isn't great, was Germany ever a big colonial power?

its their 3rd in 120 years

Look up Genocide in Namibia 1904 to 1908.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Nama_genocide

 

[HTG]

This is the second genocide in just 100 years Germany has been directly involved in.

My history isn't great, was Germany ever a big colonial power?

Not a big one. But that didn’t prevent us from committing genocide. The first time we built concentration camps was in Africa.

 

[4bars]

Singling out Germany for genocides 80-120 years ago us unfair, practically all european powers at that time were having fun around doing that. At the same time is not fair singling out Germany for what is happening in Israel because maybe it might be more vocal on its support and selling arms, but most all the west is actively supporting (selling arms also) or tolerating it and doing absolutely nothing relevant to stop it

 

[neverdie]

 

[That_Bloke]

Singling out Germany for genocides 80-120 years ago us unfair, practically all european powers at that time were having fun around doing that. At the same time is not fair singling out Germany for what is happening in Israel because maybe it might be more vocal on its support and selling arms, but most all the west is actively supporting (selling arms also) or tolerating it and doing absolutely nothing relevant to stop it

Germany is in a league of its own at the moment. It's more papist than the pope and fanatically behind Israel.

It went farther in their unconditional support of Israel than any country in the West, even the US. To the point that it borders on the grotesque.

Domestically there's been state wide, a massive and systematic crackdown from day one. They cancelled any Palestinian or pro-Palestinian artist or intellectual. They literally silenced any critic of Israel in the public domain, 1984 style. You can't protest, can't organize a demo, you can't say anything without fearing for your job or your visa, or risking to see the police knock your door. There's no public debate, and not a single dissenting politician on the topic, no matter their affiliation. Nothing, absolutely nothing, filters in the mainstream media about what's really happening in Gaza.

There's talks about conditioning on a federal level the acquisition of the German citizenship to the recognition of Israel, something that's absolutely been unheard of. The law has already been passed in Saxony-Anhalt.

Germany personally intervened in favor of Israel in the South Africa ICJ case, covering themselves in ridicule and shame, something even the US didn't do. It's also amped up weapon sales to Israel like crazy and is only second to the US.

That's always been the problem with Germany, there's no middle ground and it always learns the wrong lessons from History.

 

[Frosty]

Germany is in a league of its own at the moment. It's more papist than the pope and fanatically behind Israel.

It went farther in their unconditional support of Israel than any country in the West, even the US. To the point that it borders on the grotesque.

Domestically there's been state wide, a massive crackdown. They cancelled any Palestinian or artist or intellectual from Palestine. They literally silenced any critic of Israel in the public, 1984 style. You can't protest, can't organize a demo, you can't say anything without fearing for your job or your visa or the risk of seeing the police knock on your door. There's a not dissenting single politician on the matter, no matter their affiliation. Nothing, absolutely nothing, filters in the mainstream media about what's really happening in Gaza.

There's talks about conditioning the acquisition of the German citizenship to Israel's on a federal level, something that's absolutely been unheard of. The law has already been passed in Saxony-Anhalt.

Germany personally intervened in favor of Israel in the South Africa ICJ case, covering themselves in ridicule and shame, something even the US didn't do.

That's always been the problem with Germany, there's no middle ground and it always learns the wrong lessons from History.

How is the UK doing with arms sales to Israel in comparison? If you know of course.

 

[neverdie]

Who arms Israel?

The US remains Israel’s biggest arms supplier, accounting for 68 per cent of its weapons imports between 2013 and 2022, according to the arms transfer database of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (Sipri).

The US military also has stockpiles of weapons for its own use on the ground in Israel.

However, the Americans have allowed Israel to make use of some of these supplies during the war in Gaza, and previously sent some of the weapons to Ukraine.

The US also gives Israel about $4 billion in military aid annually, including about $500 million for air and missile defences.

A F-15 jet takes off at an airbase in the Negev desert, near the southern Israeli city of Eilat, in October 2021. EPA
Germany is in second place, accounting for 23.9 per cent of Israel's conventional arms procurement from 2011 to 2020, according to Sipri.

According to the German Economic Affairs and Climate Protection Ministry's 2023 Federal Government Arms Export Policy, the country's arms and military equipment sales to Israel reached $354 million in 2023, a 10-fold increase from the previous year.

The UK has traditionally been one of Israel’s top three military supporters. Britain supplies about 15 per cent of the components used in the F-35s employed in Israel's bombardment of Gaza, according to the Campaign Against Arms Trade, a civil society organisation.

Italy also remains one of Israel’s top arms suppliers, despite assurances last year that the government was blocking such sales following Israel's invasion of the Gaza Strip.

Italy exported $2.3 million worth of arms and munitions to Israel in the last three months of 2023. In December alone, it exported arms worth $1.41 million, three times more than in the same month in 2022.

Explains Germany's stance just a little bit more cogently. It's basically the US and a ragtag of EU states. I think there was some Arab weapons trading, but minimal and more so now.

The US sticks to the qualitative advantage strategy in Israel. It is chained to it. Its purpose is to keep other states down, militarily, and US power in the region up. The changing tides are that Arab states are increasingly open to US positions (Abraham Accords). Israel is not the only game in town. That, more than anything else, is why the US is (in parts only) condemning what Israel is doing (whilst selling it arms all the same).

https://www.e-ir.info/2021/12/13/israels-qualitative-military-edge-u-s-arms-transfer-policy/

1) the codification of the decades-long strategy to selectively supply arms with the intent to secure Israel’s continued materiel advantage against U.S. adversaries; and 2) the incentivizing of Arab states to normalize relations with Israel through expanded arms transfer opportunities; which together, 3) promotes U.S. strategy to strengthen the coalition of anti-Iranian states in the region and bolster its relative power against Iran.

It is the second point which characterizes the US' actions during this genocide. It has a keen awareness of Arab states, the Arab League, and their increasing importance as bloc which is somewhat friendly, nation to nation, to the US under certain agreements and so on.

 

[4bars]

Germany is in a league of its own at the moment. It's more papist than the pope and fanatically behind Israel.

It went farther in their unconditional support of Israel than any country in the West, even the US. To the point that it borders on the grotesque.

Domestically there's been state wide, a massive and systematic crackdown from day one. They cancelled any Palestinian or artist or intellectual from Palestine. They literally silenced any critic of Israel in the public domain, 1984 style. You can't protest, can't organize a demo, you can't say anything without fearing for your job or your visa or the risk of seeing the police knock on your door. There's not a single dissenting politician on the topic, no matter their affiliation. Nothing, absolutely nothing, filters in the mainstream media about what's really happening in Gaza.

There's talks about conditioning the acquisition of the German citizenship to Israel's on a federal level, something that's absolutely been unheard of. The law has already been passed in Saxony-Anhalt.

Germany personally intervened in favor of Israel in the South Africa ICJ case, covering themselves in ridicule and shame, something even the US didn't do.

That's always been the problem with Germany, there's no middle ground and it always learns the wrong lessons from History.

I am well aware of what germany is doing driven for the collective guilt and they don't want to give any chance, not even a crack that they are anti jews. is justified? of course not. But germany's effect on the conflict is near 0. There is only one country that could stop this by itself or it would need to be a collective of european countries. That is it

Saying that germany committed genocide 120 years ago when France and UK did the same even after WWII is not fair. And singling out Germany that is going far and beyond when most of the single european countries support israel with more ambiguous message but supporting it nevertheless (UK speaker visiting Israel for example) . Germany's take on the conflict is dreadful, but it makes me feel that beating always germany is like exonerating the rest. The state of the west had been disgusting and if a coalition of european countries would go with humanitarian aid with boots on the ground defending the aid, this would stop immediately. US is a topic that we all know what they could do

 

[That_Bloke]

How is the UK doing with arms sales to Israel in comparison? If you know of course.

Germany represents 30% of the arms sales to Israel, the US 69%. I don't have the UK nubers but you can see the difference.

 

[neverdie]

Germany to defend itself at The Hague
Preliminary hearings open on Monday at the United Nations’ top court in a case that seeks an end to German military and other aid to Israel.

The case alleges that Berlin's assistance contributes to acts of genocide and violations of international law amidst the conflict between Israel and Hamas.

Israel strongly denies its military campaign in Gaza amounts to breaches of the Genocide Convention.

Nicaragua brought the case against Germany, a key European ally of Israel and principal supplier of arms to its military.

Canada is talking about/or actually stopping arms sales. Germany ought to follow it.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

How is the UK doing with arms sales to Israel in comparison? If you know of course.

Not a lot

Here you can see what Germany exported to Israel in 2022 - even less

https://oec.world/en/profile/countr...NonSubnat=flow1&yearlyTradeFlowSelector=flow1

 

[VorZakone]

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[4bars]

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Poor people. And our governments will see that happen without bating and eye

 

[berbatrick]

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Steal the land, steal the Gas.

"Zion Oil And Gas" (gold checkmark) is a big advertiser on twitter nowadays.

 

[berbatrick]

Domestically there's been state wide, a massive and systematic crackdown from day one. They cancelled any Palestinian or pro-Palestinian artist or intellectual. They literally silenced any critic of Israel in the public domain, 1984 style.

One of the funnier cancellations (forced to resign) in Germany was of an Indian, because he was drawing attention to the fact that an event at the Israeli consulate in India had the portrait of an ideologue (idolised by our current ruling party) who explicitly praised Hitler's policies towards Jews in the late 30s.

https://thewire.in/the-arts/curator...ding-committee-over-anti-semitism-allegations

 

[neverdie]

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That is actually insane. The tipping point in this long-winded horror show. States will drop Israel like it's North Korea. Guaranteed if they go into that 1.4m strong camp heavy. It's almost as if Israel is so far right-wing that it needs to be despised the world over, and feel the consequences, before they alter their practice into some form of normality.

 

[4bars]

That is actually insane. The tipping point in this long-winded horror show. States will drop Israel like it's North Korea. Guaranteed if they go into that 1.4m strong camp heavy. It's almost as if Israel is so far right-wing that it needs to be despised the world over, and feel the consequences, before they alter their practice into some form of normality.

No, they wont. They will signal advantage and let the match go on. Rafah invasion had been on the table for more than a month. Whatever would be the consequences they had been laid out and will be very lenient if they decided to go ahead

 

[neverdie]

will be very lenient if they decided to go ahead

You're wrong here. In a climate where Canada is withholding weapons and EU states (some) have accepted genocide, you're out of your depth if you think this will have no consequences. America's position in that region for a start. There's a lot going on there and Israel is not the only nation the EU and US have to be mindful of. This will be the worst already-know-the-horrific-outcome since God knows when if it goes ahead.

Nancy Pelosi, one of the most ardent Israeli supporters in US governmental history, has urged Biden to cease weapon sales to Israel.

 

[4bars]

You're wrong here. In a climate where Canada is withholding weapons and EU states (some) have accepted genocide, you're out of your depth if you think this will have no consequences. America's position in that region for a start. There's a lot going on there and Israel is not the only nation the EU and US have to be mindful of. This will be the worst already-know-the-horrific-outcome since God knows when if it goes ahead.

Oh I am not saying that nothing will happen. nothing RELEVANT will happen. Governments will save face for a short while. Later on business as usual. Israel doesn't need anyone to enter to Rafah, they need no one to ethnic cleansing. US aid helps to make it easier and more effective. US has helped Israel to be self sufficient enough against palestine. And US will still help Israel against Iran and the likes.

What canada witholding weapons and any EU state would do to Israel? 70% of arms that israel gets is from the US and US is giving many other billions for free to Israel

Again, sure, short term inconsequential measures. After a short while all friends again and swipping it under the rug