I am against because he will run young players into the ground very soon.
Unpopular Opinion | Not sacking Ten Hag
- Thread starter Nickelodeon
- Start date
Those who said we have given enough time to SAF to flourish. Please remember that we are in modern football now. Many managers nowadays come in straight away perform to very high standard or at least with certain obvious style of play. Pep, Klopp and Arteta also took time but there were clear signs that the style of play was something interesting to build on.
ETH team look the worst coached team in PL after 2 years and 400M. There is nothing to build on. We need to cut losses and look for the right manager. With FFP, we can't afford to throw away another 400M because our team is still so far away form challenging.
ETH team look the worst coached team in PL after 2 years and 400M. There is nothing to build on. We need to cut losses and look for the right manager. With FFP, we can't afford to throw away another 400M because our team is still so far away form challenging.
On what merits should he keep the job? He has been here for two seasons, it's not like he hasn't been given time.
It's nothing but blind faith at this point. There are zero signs that we're going in the right direction under his coaching.
What does standing by him until December and sacking him achieve though. It just shows the players you’ll take a bit longer to make a decision and do the same thing anyway. If you want to stand by the manager you have to do so for at least a couple of seasons which is pretty untenable and unthinkable after this season.
If the club want to show players things have changed then they need to stop paying out huge wages, stop renewing contracts and be prepared to move on from players quicker.
I am. It is shambolic. Which is why I consider it an unpopular opinion to not sack Ten Hag.
My entire point is that for a change, let's back the manager when it is maybe wiser to sack them and get rid of the players who have led us to this point under various managers. Think of the performances (or lack of it) from Rashford or Maguire under Ole/Rangnick and yet they continue to be part of the team. On top of that, Rashford is now one of the highest paid player of the club. The same players have been routinely raising their games when needed and not having the motivation or quality to do it when the going gets tough. What message are we constantly sending to the likes of Rashford who will be under a 5th (!) permanent manager if we sack Ten Hag?
Don't think you fully understood the point you've quoted here. I'm saying that if we don't sack Ten Hag, the best case scenario is that we finally get the sort of performances we hoped or expected this season. Or the situation would be toxic and we sack him around October-December.
Regarding availability of managers, I don't think that should be an issue. There's no outstanding candidate available right now and there may not be one in the middle of the season. Despite everything, we will still retain a pull where we can get managers to leave their jobs and join us.
I don't disagree at all. I'm just putting in a contrary opinion that we've been through this situation under other managers too. Similar attitude or disciplinary issues, similar downing of tools, similar Rashford performances (yes, I've had it with him) and similar injured players. Maybe this one time, we give the manager the sort of leeway we've given many of these players. Rashford has scored 6 open play goals this season and yet there's hardly any outrage in the media to kick him out of the club. Because it must be the manager, right? It always is the manager and the directors and the owners. When will it be solely the players and big earners at that?
Any big club which finishes outside the top 6 has had a shambolic season. It's easy to think with blinkered eyes but the situation for Arteta at Arsenal was incredibly toxic. And a lot of the underperforming and overpaid players were signings under him. I'm not a fan of the 'because it happened for them, it will happen for us' argument. Ultimately, they wanted a change of culture under the same manager who started the project and despite an finishing 8th in 19/20, then 8th in 20/21 and then 5th in 21/22, this is where they are. It's easy to sack a manager when the situation is toxic and there seems to be no upside. But if we showed the faith in Ten Hag being a good coach, give him the benefit of the doubt for this season. Just this one time, maybe we don't sack the manager even when it seems blatantly obvious and tell the players that it's them and get them out one way or the other.
As I take it, this idea basically amounts to:
We keep ETH and allow him to get rid of players that are substandard or otherwise not fit for the purpose (as he sees it).
And that is...well, I believe it was you who used the term fan fiction above - and that's pretty accurate.
It will never happen (unless INEOS are insane - and we all hope they aren't...).
"December" is just another moving target.
I have no doubt that if we did just that, once December came around the usual suspects would all be saying "we might as well keep him for the rest of the season, there's nothing to play for / no quality replacements are available".
Acknowledging that your opinion is unpopular isn't a "get out of jail free" card when people criticize it
Completely agree and the bolder part could be the first step in the right direction. Not getting rid of the players only shows that you will accept mediocrity, under-performance and bad attitudes. No matter the manager; if he has to contend with what set-up, they’re fecked
They have an ideal opportunity as so many are out of contract over next two years, how they deal with that will be a big indication of if and how much things have changed.
I don’t think there is any issue with sacking managers, most of ours have been given way more than they’d get at any other top club and most wouldn’t have even been given as much time by like of Spurs.
Spurs would sack ETH for this season so no one will bat an eyelid when we do. What has to change is only the manager being accountable. Woodward wasn’t, Arnold and Murtough were part of that regime but got promotions for it. The list of players is too long to go into. The club now has to show that everyone is accountable, has to demonstrate they are worth what they are paid and are dispensable if they don’t.
I would like to be behind him. I would like to be on his side. He was a highly rated, sought after manager that we were looking at some time and we got him.
But whats going on on the pitch leaves no ability to defend him. We dont do anything well. His signings havent worked. Our players dont play as a team.
Yes of course the injuries are awful. Its hard to think that we arent doing something to cause them more often.
However even if you put that to one side and say okay, too often we havent been able to play with our full quality players together... You need the 11 players to go out there and play as a team, even if its one that ultimately loses beccause they didnt quite have the quality. It should be close. The effort and workrate should be there. The players should be able to know where each other are going to be and quickly receive and move the ball on with 2 touches without having their head up for 2 seconds when they receieve the ball to try and work out whats going on. We dont have any of that
Our players go out there and get outfought for loose balls and challenges and we slowly move the ball very predictably in a way thats easy to defend, other than Casemiro who will often try a long pass behind the defence first time when the ball is played to him with varying success, but at least it gives a bit of a threat of getting in behind and the chance we could recover a cleared ball. It does lose the ball at times when he gets it wrong or the players going for the ball do a poor job though.
So what is there to like and hope that something is going to click and we're going to go on a 5 wins in 6 type run?
I cant come up with anything.
The only thing we're any good at is the same thing we were good at like 5 years ago, before the manager and thats counterattacking. We have fast wingers who like to shoot so we can break quickly and look a threat, maybe get some goals on a good day. Thats pretty much been the case since Rashford broke through that we have that and thats still the only thing we have.
But whats going on on the pitch leaves no ability to defend him. We dont do anything well. His signings havent worked. Our players dont play as a team.
Yes of course the injuries are awful. Its hard to think that we arent doing something to cause them more often.
However even if you put that to one side and say okay, too often we havent been able to play with our full quality players together... You need the 11 players to go out there and play as a team, even if its one that ultimately loses beccause they didnt quite have the quality. It should be close. The effort and workrate should be there. The players should be able to know where each other are going to be and quickly receive and move the ball on with 2 touches without having their head up for 2 seconds when they receieve the ball to try and work out whats going on. We dont have any of that
Our players go out there and get outfought for loose balls and challenges and we slowly move the ball very predictably in a way thats easy to defend, other than Casemiro who will often try a long pass behind the defence first time when the ball is played to him with varying success, but at least it gives a bit of a threat of getting in behind and the chance we could recover a cleared ball. It does lose the ball at times when he gets it wrong or the players going for the ball do a poor job though.
So what is there to like and hope that something is going to click and we're going to go on a 5 wins in 6 type run?
I cant come up with anything.
The only thing we're any good at is the same thing we were good at like 5 years ago, before the manager and thats counterattacking. We have fast wingers who like to shoot so we can break quickly and look a threat, maybe get some goals on a good day. Thats pretty much been the case since Rashford broke through that we have that and thats still the only thing we have.
Not saying that my post or opinion is above criticism. I’m agreeing that it’s shambolic season. Despite that, I’m considering the possibility of not sacking the manager and laying out reasons why I believe that. I can fully understand if other fans don’t agree with it.
Absolutely spot on. Great post.
My opinion hasn’t and probably won’t change in terms of what I’ve posted today but that’s just because I have a very cute and cuddly view on what I want the club to do.
I wholly expect that Ten Hag will be gone in less than 3 weeks, as well as accepting that he probably should have gone sooner - after the Chelsea game may have been the ideal opportunity.
That doesn’t stop me from having a different, possibly wrong, opinion to what appears to be the masses
People complain that Sancho should go because he didn't perform for the last 2 years he was here. People complain that Rashford should go because of his bad performance this year despite he was very good last year. People complain that Casemeiro should go. People complain that Antony should go. People complain that Maguire should go. People complain that McT should go. And the list goes on and on........
Suddenly, the most important appointment of the club the manager who flop for 2 years must be given more time to proof himself. No Man Utd manager should be given time if failed to finish Top 4 let alone finishing 8th with no style of play.
Meanwhile, in real world, I hope I'm working for an organisation where I flop for 2 years and wasted 400M of the organisation funds, and yet the management is in the opinion that I should be given more time to improve. It's impossible in real world, I will be kicked out long ago and probably be sued by the organisation for my incompetency too.
Suddenly, the most important appointment of the club the manager who flop for 2 years must be given more time to proof himself. No Man Utd manager should be given time if failed to finish Top 4 let alone finishing 8th with no style of play.
Meanwhile, in real world, I hope I'm working for an organisation where I flop for 2 years and wasted 400M of the organisation funds, and yet the management is in the opinion that I should be given more time to improve. It's impossible in real world, I will be kicked out long ago and probably be sued by the organisation for my incompetency too.
Mark my words. This time next year we would be discussing how some idiots wanted him out this time last year.
Haven't they done this to a certain extent by being quite open that most of the squad would be sold for the right offer. I can't remember seeing any direct quotes (though that would be quite shocking) but most reputable outlets have reported that the only ones that United wouldn't be open to selling were Garnacho, Mainoo and Hojlund.
Post bookmarked.
I'd say we've largely backed the managers given the amount of money the club has spent on new players. Granted, they may not have gotten all of their #1 targets or been allowed to bin certain players, but ETH has been backed financially in the summer windows at least. The problem is, FFP has now caught up with us. That was to be expected. ETH got his #1 winger, his #1 CB, and his #1 keeper. He didn't get his #1 MF but that is not due to Barcelona not wanted or agreeing to sell him to us. By all accounts, the player rejected us. We ended up with a last resort hasbeen who's legs are gone.
Arsenal seemingly got it right with Arteta but Arteta also had the best teacher in the world to learn under. Alas, they haven't won anything yet and probably won't this season either.
I think it's fair for the owners to expect results from the manager and players when they spend hundreds of millions on new players. They have been calling the shots or at least appointing the individuals who call the shots so it's on them. The hope is that Ineos will correct the issues that have put us in the position we're in by appointing the correct football minds to take charge. They've had last season and this season to assess the situation. I can't see them wanting to continue with ETH for another season. They will want change sooner rather than later. I don't feel like his job hinges on one game either. If we win the final, it would be a good parting gift for ETH and he can take his players with him.
It's this.
Any team can have a lot of injury problems and it does cause big problems. But we've been walked through in midfield from day 1, when we DID have everyone available.
A lot of the signings initially looked good then 18months later literally every one of them looks a poor choice. From Casemiro dropping worrying levels, to Martinez having multiple long spells out. To Malachia disappearing for a whole year, to the woeful loanees.
It's hard to argue that it'd have been a lot more fun keeping Ole and Ronaldo!
Yes, exactly. I can't imagine the situation if he stays during the summer. It's so easy to convince yourself that he's doing a good job as long as there's no actual football being played.
Ive always been in the 'give him til the end of his contract' camp.. But then the end of this season looks like theres no way back for him, the players seemingly have just decided they are done playing for him. If they get rid of the manager, I feel like the players have won again. Once they have to knuckle down and work under pressure they just blame everyone else and throw him under the bus, its happened too much now to be a coincidence.
I feel if INEOS are going to be ruthless with the manager, they need to do the same with players. If theres lads have downed tools & are hanging about just to see if the manager goes.. they should bin those lads aswell.
EtH being able to get rid of alot of the clowns/ bad eggs in the squad, and him not being plagued with injures again (surely the same amount cant happen again
) , it should give him a fighting chance next season. If we are still awful, by all means, time for him to go aswell.
But I fear if these players have truly downed tools and clocked off for the rest of the season, and we dont get any thing from these last 3 games, INEOS will pull the trigger.
I feel if INEOS are going to be ruthless with the manager, they need to do the same with players. If theres lads have downed tools & are hanging about just to see if the manager goes.. they should bin those lads aswell.
EtH being able to get rid of alot of the clowns/ bad eggs in the squad, and him not being plagued with injures again (surely the same amount cant happen again
) , it should give him a fighting chance next season. If we are still awful, by all means, time for him to go aswell.But I fear if these players have truly downed tools and clocked off for the rest of the season, and we dont get any thing from these last 3 games, INEOS will pull the trigger.
We were walked through in midfield in the Ole and Rangnick reigns too leading to Rangnick saying we needed open heart surgery.
This season we have had fewer options, in defence especially, than Rangnick had. We'd be absolutely delighted to have Maguire and Lindelof available for Arsenal given the circumstances. As it is, we're going to have to play a midfielder or rookie or someone coming back from injury at CB.
No manager in the league would be able to perform miracles with the players we have available.
Who are all these clowns and bad eggs, out of interest? Half the squad have only been in the team since Ten Hag joined.Ive always been in the 'give him til the end of his contract' camp.. But then the end of this season looks like theres no way back for him, the players seemingly have just decided they are done playing for him. If they get rid of the manager, I feel like the players have won again. Once they have to knuckle down and work under pressure they just blame everyone else and throw him under the bus, its happened too much now to be a coincidence.
I feel if INEOS are going to be ruthless with the manager, they need to do the same with players. If theres lads have downed tools & are hanging about just to see if the manager goes.. they should bin those lads aswell.
EtH being able to get rid of alot of the clowns/ bad eggs in the squad, and him not being plagued with injures again (surely the same amount cant happen again
But I fear if these players have truly downed tools and clocked off for the rest of the season, and we dont get any thing from these last 3 games, INEOS will pull the trigger.
Hi Erik!
You've identified what i fear will happen and the never ending cycle of the past 11 years or so that people don't seem to acknowledge. When Rashford scores 20 goals next season, or Luke Shaw actually remains available and plays half decent it will all be the previous manager's fault. The season after that however...it begins again. Hopefully that won't be the case but unless there's a culture change or a change in the quality of the players don't be surprised if it does.
We can all use our eyes when watching the players to know who isnt good enough and who cant be arsed. As for all the leaks / toxic elements / player power etc. behind the scenes, im sure theres plenty there , including EtH) who know who they are.
Forget about Ten Hag though, if Utd as a club cant root out the problems mentioned, they'll go nowhere fast. And the same will happen to the replacement. rinse repeat. Id rather we had someone stay and get a go at changing the culture and standards with INEOS
I've swung in the last day or two. Looking at the hard facts he's had a crippling injury list most, if not all would struggle with. His signings haven't worked out for him but I suspect he will have that responsibility taken away from him this summer.
He's also had to contend with so many egos.
He's also had to contend with so many egos.
I'm all for binning players who aren't good enough and/or have poor attitudes. But what bothers me is how it's so often a case of blaming one side or the other, like having a couple bad eggs somehow absolves the manager of all blame and gifts him immunity to being held accountable by losing his job.
We have a number of poor players, and a couple who stick out as having bad attitudes, but the manager also stands out as being inept. Seems to me the obvious solution is to remove them all instead of picking sides
Yes...but why should ETH be a part of this?
What's he done to merit being a part of this?
The culture has to change, we all agree on that.
And we all (I hope) agree that we need a new structure: no more "manager" in charge of both recruitment and coaching, but a more modern model where the "manager" is essentially phased out and replaced by a (head) coach responsible for preparing the first team for matches (to put it in very, very simple terms).
In a new structure of this kind - why should we keep ETH (as the head coach)?
(That's a very simple question.)
To be clear: I get the idea that sacking "managers" have done nothing for us. But in this case we wouldn't (shouldn't) sack a "manager" to replace him with yet another "manager". We would (should) sack a "manager" and replace him with an actual head coach (who has limited influence on player recruitment and other aspects of the football operation).
Does it make sense to effectively "sack" ETH as "manager" - and then make him "head coach"?
Yes, it would change things. But I really think he’ll be gone next summer if Ten Hag stays.
We’re in a bad place mate for sure.
Why? He's picked him every time he could, no matter the circumstances. Head coach will not be deciding who is sold anymore either way.
Well I'm sure you can appreciate that only either keeping Ten Hag or hiring a manager from the Championship isn't going to be agreed upon as a good approach by most people.
Let’s just try something different this time. Players out.
Maybe I’m in a different position from everyone else as at the start of the season I thought we’d struggle for top 8. Even with a fully fit first 11. As a collection of players it’s just not been great planning. Just from watching it’s clear to see that some just either don’t have the ability or intelligence to play at the lvl required of a top team.
Hopefully now with a proper structure we will start to recruit with purpose and thought instead of just throwing money at players to be a band aid.
I just think he deserves another season and want to see where it’s going. Add to the fact there aren’t any stand out options and even if there was no one can fix this without an influx of new players.
Hopefully now with a proper structure we will start to recruit with purpose and thought instead of just throwing money at players to be a band aid.
I just think he deserves another season and want to see where it’s going. Add to the fact there aren’t any stand out options and even if there was no one can fix this without an influx of new players.
There's the mad use of that word again. And we can all see where it's going. Nowhere.
But nah you're absolutely right he deserves another season dragging us down because we only pay him £9m a year, and he doesnt have a warm blankety Structure to protect him from his own incompetence, and that's very unfair.
So you rate his transfer dealings so low that you thought our fully fit first 11 was going to struggle for top 8 but you think he "deserves" another season? I'm honestly convinced no other fanbase is like this.
Boggles the mind. What's even more bizarre is him being given more leeway and tolerance than anyone else post-Fergie.
It's like having Nick Leeson look after your bank by now, yet people still want to see how much further into ruin we can be driven.