He played 3 5 2 to give the defenders a moral boost and to send a message to his wide forwards to work better for the defensive duties which has been a real issue for us lately.
3-5-2 formation this season for United?
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Same here
Wan Bissaka's positioning and anticipation are bad, he has the ability to tackle and sometimes recover but his defensive qualities aren't ideal for a CB.
AWB's positioning/tracking needs (or used to) some works even as a RB. Outside CB might not suit him much at the moment. Imagine if he goes to ground as one and fails? Plus those needs to be really good with ball playing.
Depends on the context. Like who those three are competing with.
You are seriously not comparing AWB and Shaw, are you? Shaw is positionally decent and good in air . AWB is quite bad in air and horrible positionally.
I like this
what we need to buy to have a successful 3-5-2 ?
Is that you having talked to him in today or yesterday or is it something that just sounded plausible to you?
Hey guys, I’m a football noob so please don’t jump on me too much if I say something that sounds stupid. I was thinking about the formation against Spurs though, and Ole seemed to like the three-man defense and having the two strikers, but the big question mark was over how we would fit wingers like Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood, etc into the lineup. That got me wondering about how a 3-2-3-2 formation would work with this team? You keep the three backs, have two more defensive mids in front of them, then Bruno flanked by two wide mids/wings and you keep the twin strikers thing. What do you guys think? Also, if it’s a stupid idea, please explain it to me rather than jumping on me about it.
If my understanding of your suggestion is correct basically what you're suggesting replacing wingbacks (Shaw, Wan Bissaka) with Greenwood, Rashford or Sancho.
It's only possible if we're losing and chasing a game.
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Against the ball, your formation would maybe struggle for width due to not having wingbacks (which often are part of 3-at-the-back systems) nor fullbacks (part of 5-at-the-back systems). That would mean, either the centerbacks would have to go further out or the defensive mids. So the defensive stability you are using the 3 cb's plus 2 dm's for, would just vanish.
Attacking that might be a working solution, very attacking though. As our "wing"players are mostly strikers the natural wingplay (tracking back, helping out) isn't ingrained in them (why we struggled quite a bit this season).
Additionally it would create pretty deep distinction between attack and defense, 5 players there, 5 players there. Modern football doesn't work with that sort of fixed roles but is dynamic. Bringing as many attackers in as possible in a certain situation while staying defensively robust.
Edit: Welcome to the redcafe!
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A CM/DM and a right wing back.
If Jose benched those players for a 32 and 36 year old who might only be around 1 season I doubt you'd be OK with it
I've seen this a lot, somehow Jose being dragged into it. I don't get it.
It depends who the 32 and 36 year olds are and how they're playing.
Is there really a compelling argument to drop Ronaldo for any of Greenwood, Sancho or Rashford? I don't think so.
Did you see his performances from the West Ham game to the Spurs one?
This is not a serious comment.
What was not "style" about the win yesterday? Three world class goals, clean sheet. Doesn't matter how many times somebody says "Spurs are shit", we have lost to shittier teams and Spurs being shit or not didn't make the three goals scored any less world class. First goal, second goal especially - they will penetrate any team from City, to Pools, to Bayern to whomever. Those were not goals you only score against shit teams. So enough of this nonsense, please
Rashford has 3 goals in 2 starts and 2 sub appearances..
So you'd drop Ronaldo for Rashford?
100%
It is clear that with the current squad, back 3 is our game, we can vary things in front of them, but we cannot play 2CBs until we have different players or a different manager. Just a fact
When game or form of either of them requires it - yes we should.
There should never be anybody who cannot be dropped, especially a 36-year old player, even the GOAT like Ronaldo. Club and winning comes first. End of story. Our manager needs to grow some balls and stop being afraid to drop certain players
Well Cavani has 1 goal in 7, Ronaldo has 3 in his past 7, Rashford has 3 in 4....
Your argument that none of the young players deserve to start, haven't done enough, is blatantly wrong. Rashford has done amazingly since his return and normally Manchester United fans wouldn't be happy to see a young player doing well benched for a couple of older players. Jose would have been hung for it.
Is it a trick question?
As long as we won't play current state Martial much, we have a pleasant problem to deal with.
Overplaying Rashford was also negative factor in his development, so rotation is good, in fact it will help everyone during multiple competitions.
Depends. Are you going to give me a trick answer?
Your statement sounded so sincere and I was wondering where you took that from? (I am still learning the craft around here
)I wouldn't read too much into yesterday's formation. It was against a very poor Spurs team who did not have decent wide players or full-backs to take advantage of our system.
For the system to work on a permanent basis the squad needs to be overhauled to play the system at a high level. We'd need quality attacking wing-backs and plenty of pace on the counter. The 2 sitting midfielders also need to be very aware and disciplined to cover any space vacated by the wing-backs which we don't have at the moment.
For the system to work on a permanent basis the squad needs to be overhauled to play the system at a high level. We'd need quality attacking wing-backs and plenty of pace on the counter. The 2 sitting midfielders also need to be very aware and disciplined to cover any space vacated by the wing-backs which we don't have at the moment.
Totally agree. On top of rotation, some healthy competition for starting positions is an important part of modern game. The whole notion of "best starting 11 and play them every game" that some pundits are pedaling is totally archaic approach of dinosaur tacticians. I love Bruno with all my heart, but he shouldn't be starting every single game, either. It is obvious that he is not always top of his game, and in some formations (e.g. 3-4-3) we should rest him and put more emphasis on Sancho, DvB (I know he is done, but just saying) etc.
Also we need to stop playing Greenwood on the right. He is not a natural wide forward and always wanders into the center. Also, he has a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to be an understudy of Ronaldo and Cavani for a world-class #9. They will only be here for very short time. Have him study under them, bring Mason on as #9 as sub or in some games, and then he has the rest of his career to excel.
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It is of course plausible statement.Depends. Are you going to give me a trick answer?
Your statement sounded so sincere and I was wondering where you took that from? (I am still learning the craft around here
I mean I hate to put words like IMO, I think, I believe, I reckon etc. Since, everything we write here is all those.
I made those statements for a few reasons.
1). The defense is leaking and the coaching team couldn't figure out so they went back to very basic stuff.
2). The squad have tons of attacking players to use this as a long term default formation.
3). As many observed and Ole said, that our forwards work rates are shocking so it is a warning to them that they have to work harder to get in the team.
4). And no manager would drop Ronaldo.
Ronaldo has 7 in his past 10 this season. Why count those out?
Yeah agree in theory, nobody should be guaranteed a starting spot.
But right now Ole is gettinh criticised for dropping the younger lads for the older lads.
So the question is right now, would you drop Ronaldo?
Why can't you answer the question about dropping Ronaldo? Let's try again. Would you drop Ronaldo for Rashford, Greenwood or Sancho right now?
This is the thing. You can't be criticising Ole for playing the older guys if you yourself can't explain which of Ronaldo or Cavani should be dropped for the younger lads. If you won't commit to answer on an Internet forum I think it's a bit rich to criticise Ole.
Sancho at right wing back. Wan Bissaka as right centre back instead of Lindelof. Shaw left wing back. VDB alongside Mctominay or Fred.
I personally quite like the 3 defender formations. We need to be tactically flexible though and be able to not just play 3-4-1-2 but also 3-4-2-1 and 343.
I already described why I feel that essentially the 3 defenders is more suited to the modern game than the 4 defender formations because you have someone specifically guarding the half spaces while not exposing the wide areas too much and crossing should in theory be way less effective against 3 tall players at the back than just two. In an attacking manner, it also gives you between 5-6 players in midfield, thus never being outnumbered by a 4 at the back formation in that regard.
Another point needs to be made about us being able to not just play these formations on the counter-attack like we did against spurs, we also need to be able to dominate possession and have players who can make the runs from deep into dangerous areas. If we just end up passing the ball around between our 3 defenders, we'll look just as blunt against deeper opponents as we do with other formations.
I already described why I feel that essentially the 3 defenders is more suited to the modern game than the 4 defender formations because you have someone specifically guarding the half spaces while not exposing the wide areas too much and crossing should in theory be way less effective against 3 tall players at the back than just two. In an attacking manner, it also gives you between 5-6 players in midfield, thus never being outnumbered by a 4 at the back formation in that regard.
Another point needs to be made about us being able to not just play these formations on the counter-attack like we did against spurs, we also need to be able to dominate possession and have players who can make the runs from deep into dangerous areas. If we just end up passing the ball around between our 3 defenders, we'll look just as blunt against deeper opponents as we do with other formations.
I don’t think so. We had a very good defensive record for a very long time playing 4231.
Provided Varane and Maguire are both properly fit, they are fine as a two. The midfield is an issue, yes, and if we don’t have our best two CBs in good form, 4231 leaves us a bit exposed at times. The defensive solidity we’re looking for is more about getting the discipline and shape right - both badly lacking v Liv which was a real tactical blunder but not necessarily the formation.
I am pretty sure that 352 was designed to focus the team on not conceding any goals. Away to Spurs, 1-0 win or even 0-0 would probably have been acceptable to the coaches. This was a crisis measure to stop the rot. We’ll play 352 a few more times but then it will be put on the back burner.
Give Laird a go at the rwb, he would make it his I think.
I'm talking about current form. Rashford has more in the past 4 than Ronaldo or Cavani.
I said multiple times before yesterday's game Ronaldo, Fernandes, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, and Greenwood should all be dropped. Players should be picked on form and they had been dreadful.
I agree with Sancho but not with AWB, his passing is simply too bad and with 3 CBs you need to have players who can actually pass a ball. I think I would even prefer McT in the right CB spot instead of AWB.
Thanks for answering. Got it. I'd prefer using these words into it because I often don't know, if I missed an interview or something or if am just reading the opinions of a confident person ^^ But in these cases I will continue to ask.
But those are his current form too, just 1 month ago. You can't have comparison based on few weeks (few games) interval, it leads to nowhere.
Ronaldo scored and assisted yesterday. Bruno assisted, played a big role in the second. So I'm really glad Ole picked them and Cavani.
I really don't get watching the Spurs game and complaining Ronaldo, Cavani and Bruno played. Makes zero sense to me.