40s Draft Final: Gio&Theon vs Joga Bonito

[green_smiley]

Team Gio & Theon​

Our homage to the greatest international team of all time Brazil 1970 is bolstered by the critical additions of the greatest goalscorer of all time, Gerd Muller, and two of the greatest defenders of all time in Elias Figueroa and Bobby Moore.

WHY WE WILL WIN:

• Stronger spine. The core of the team - where matches are won and lost - is both defensively bullet proof and unplayable going forward.
  
  
• Unplayable attack. Our 10 and 9 combination is perfect. The two greatest goalscorers of all time will be provided with the perfect platform to plunder goals. The collective creativity of the midfield behind, alongside the defence-stretching ability of Jairzinho and Cubillas, should give him the little service and space the pair need to make the difference. Together Muller, Pele, Jairzinho and Cubillas have banged in 1800 goals, netting 26 in the 1970 World Cup alone as the top four scorers. Importantly they are a complementary quartet and will threaten Joga's defence in a multitude of ways.
  
  
• Proven Brazil '70 model strengthened by key additions. Where that vintage was relatively weak - at goalkeeper and the centre of defence - we have bolstered with Elias Figueroa and Bobby Moore as the standout central defenders in the draft (alongside the Kaiser) and in the top echelon of all time. Voted a record three time South American Footballer of the Year - Figueroa renews his partnership with his Penarol teammate Mazurkiewicz with whom they won all the club game could offer. Voted in the FIFA All Time World Cup XI as well as the World Team of the Century - Bobby Moore is equally impressive, quelling Eusebio in 1966, Pele in 1970 and making more recoveries of possession than any other player in the history of the World Cup.
  
  
• Tactically cohesive. The Brazil '70 quartet are reunited. Instead of Rivelino we have Cubillas who, in my view, is a similar but tidier tactical fit with his ball-carrying ability, foraging and preference to defer to a central playmaker (Cueto/Gerson). In fairness to Joga he has dibs on Carlos Alberto. As much as we'd like to have him on board, fortunately this match, with Best the likely opponent, calls for a less expansive full-back focused primarily on their defensive responsibilities. We have that in Alexsander Shalamanov, a double Olympian sportsman whose physicality and pace made him one of the shining defensive lights of the 1966 World Cup.
  
  
• While Joga has a well-functioning defence and midfield unit, his attack appears less cohesive. In particular in Denis Law and Eusebio both, if forced to choose, prefer to support the attack and often from the same areas. In the same way that we were previously called, rightly, on having Deyna and Rocha in the same line-up, there is a clash of what two players want to do when at their best. It's not that they can't do a job there - and both were fantastic all-round attackers - but ultimately at this rarefied level it's about maximising the potential of the players on show.

vs

​

 

[green_smiley]

Team Joga Bonito​

Tactical Write-Up

Now Gion's team features a helluva lot of firepower and there is no denying it. Ultimately, I believe the key to gaining the edge here, is to asserting dominance in midfield and limiting their supply lines as best as possible. Their primary playmaker is Gérson, who had a cracking left peg and a glorious pass on him but was a notoriously static player, and wasn't exactly the type who'd relish a tight 'midfield battle'. Playing in a midfield duo, he faces a midfield trio which features the tigerish Ball and Wimmer who would make it as difficult as possible for Gérson, to assert his usual influence on this game. Gérson also doesn't really have supplementary playmakers to dovetail with as he did in '70 (Rivelino and Carlos Alberto). That is not to downplay Pelé who played a great role as a 'facilitatory glue' but was still a fairly direct player and not exactly a genuine playmaker.

The opposition's secondary playmaker would be Moore who I regard to be one of the greatest ever at being a consistent outlet from the back. However, Moore lacked the dynamism and pace on the ball to be a truly potent ball-playing force from the back, ala Scirea/Beckenbauer, and in this match, Law would be given instructions off the ball to hound Moore and potentially reduce his impact on the ball by capitalising on his physical limitations on the ball. I couldn't have asked for a more perfect forward for this assignment than Law, whose aggressiveness and industry would be right at the fore here.

I'd say in I'm also well poised in winning the midfield battle, esp with the best playmaker on the pitch in Netzer, who is relatively unshackled and has the room here to exhibit his unrivalled and sublime passing range. It is essentially a midfield trio against a midfield duo - a pretty good one at that if I'm to be honest - but one that features the static Gérson and wouldn't be able to reduce Netzer's influence on the game. With complementary midfielders alongside him, Beckenbauer to dovetail with on the ball, and the likes of Ball, Best, Law and Eusébio - whom he can unleash time after time with his unparalleled repertoire of passing, Netzer's impact would be significant here.

The best players on the pitch (not ability wise, that's obviously Pelé, but in terms of influence and impact) - Best, Netzer and Ball. Most of the battles on the pitch such as Müller-Pelé up against one of the greatest and the most successful defensive combination ever in Beckenbauer-Schwarzenbeck, Denis Law-Eusébio against the fearsome Moore-Figueroa, are fairly even match-ups which could go either way. However, the areas with the least resistance to goal and the most favourable match-ups are Best against Shalamanov, Netzer being relatively unshackled and Ball against Anczok.

1) Best against Shalamanov could very well prove to be the defining battle of this match, the greatest wing-forward/winger of all time (on par, or better I'd say than Garrincha) against a decent defender who is simply over his head here. Keep in mind that Best doesn't even need service to weave his magic, but here he has the unshackled Netzer, Beckenbauer and C.Alberto providing him with an endless stream of quality service, against a poorly matched Shalamanov, who doesn't have much defensive support to boot. Simply put, the Netzer-Best link-up is the best avenue and one with the least resistance on the entire pitch.

2) Not much needs to be said about Günter 'von karajan' Netzer legendary playmaking skills and the greatest German playmaker ever was a match-winner of the highest calibre. With a favourable midfield set-up and without facing significant resistance, von karajan will be pulling the strings gleefully.

A top tier playmaker and imo, the greatest long passer to ever set foot on a pitch. I'll let you decide that for yourself, from this video compiled by me.


3) An unique footballing package with his infectious enthusiasm, sublime skill, boundless energy, goalscoring knack, sheer consistency, flame coloured hair, high pitched voice and white boots, the ubiquitous Alan Ball was quite simply a marvel to behold on the pitch. A player who won the MOTM award in the World Cup Final, he simply ran two of the greatest LBs of all time in Schnellinger and Marzolini right into the ground, leaving them ragged and fazed. Ball's displays in the WC earned him a 7th place finish in the ballon d'Or, with only Charlton and Moore finishing above him from England. Anczok would find the irrepressible Ball a serious pain in the arse and someone he'd struggle to contain. And all that is without even taking one of the greatest RB of all time Carlos Alberto, who has the freedom to gallop forward here, into account.

They’ve got a very attacking left fullback called Marzolini who, if not stopped, will cause us problems; and you’re the best person in this squad to stop him.

The key to the system was probably Ball, whose tremendous energy meant he could operate both as a winger and as a midfielder - just as Zagallo had for Brazil in 1962.

Alan Ball was making his way as possibly the most important player in the side, a man who could do creative and defensive work in midfield, double as a winger, would run himself daft for an England cap.

Sounds like a bit too much? I'd let you decide for yourself, the video contains World Cup compilations of Ball that I made, including the masterclass against Marzolini and the MOTM performance in the final.


Whilst Best would be leaving Shalamanov with nightmares to deal with on the left, Ball in tandem with C.Alberto, would simply wreak havoc on the right. Now as great as Moore-Figueroa are, they can't be expected to deal with Eusébio-Law AND babysit the full-backs, who don't have much defensive cover from the forwards or midfield.

Gio's most favourable match-up on the other hand, is Jairzinho against John Greig. Whilst I'd obviously give Jairzinho the edge here, Greig's credentials speak for themselves - the greatest ever Rangers player of all time, Scottish captain and two times Scottish Player of The Year in a strong vintage featuring Law, Bremner, McNeill, Johnstone, Murdoch etc. I'd take that over any of the match-ups that Gio has to face.

My opponent does possess a quadrant of Brazil's greatest national team of all time but let's not forget that mine too, sports the formidable core of the greatest German national team ever in Netzer-Wimmer-Beckenbauer-Schwarzenbeck. Likewise, do no forget that Netzer-Wimmer were the foundation upon which the Gladbach of the 70s, arguably the best Bundesliga team of all time, were built upon and likewise Beckenbauer-Schwarzenbeck were the bedrock of the all-conquering Bayern of the 70s. Aaaand all that's without including two-thirds of the holy-trinity in Law & Best into the equation.

So whilst Gio has a fearsome attack, I believe I have the better defense and midfield on show here; a more balanced unit with Best & Law capable of putting in their fair share of work off the ball and an extra man in midfield in Ball who can actively contribute to both phases; the best playmakers on the pitch in Netzer & Beckenbauer; a set-up which can minimise the efficiency of Gio's supplylines and most importantly, an attack with significantly more advantageous match-ups which should give me the edge here.


Good luck Gio & Theon.

 

[green_smiley]

@Rado_N could you please help to add a poll?

Who will win based on all the players at their peaks?
Gio & Theon
Joga Bonito

Poll closed after: 1 day

Thanks

 

[green_smiley]

Good luck
@Gio @Theon @Joga Bonito

 

[Gio]

All the best @Joga Bonito

]LADISLAO MAZURKIEWICZ

Not only is the Uruguayan keeper one of the greatest of all time, but together with Elias Figueroa he won everything the club game could offer in Penarol's legendary vintage of the 1960's. Mazurkiewicz also shone for Uruguay internationally, keeping three clean sheets in the four games en route to the semi-finals in 1970 having kept six in a row for the national team a year earlier. Outstanding again in 1974 when he prevented Holland running up a cricket score against an otherwise ageing Uruguay side.

ELIAS FIGUEROA

The complete defender and widely considered the greatest ever from South America.

Recognition: IFFHS Best South American Defender ever, Best Chilean Player ever, 8th Best South American Player ever, 6 times Best Centre-half in the Americas (1972-77), 4 times Best Centre-Half in the World (1974-77), 3 times Best Player FROM the Americas (1974-76), 2 times World Player of the Year (1975-76), Best Centre-half at 1974 FIFA World Cup, 3 Times Best Player in the Uruguayan League, 2 Times Best Player in the Brazilian League (ahead of Falcao, Zico, Rivelino, etc.), Best Foreign Player in the history of Brazilian Football.

BOBBY MOORE

Unquestionably the greatest defender to ever hail from the British Isles and right up there with Baresi and Beckenabuer as the best the continent has produced, Moore was the complete defender - flawless in possession, fantastic in the tackle and an inspirational leader to boot who was made Captain of England at just 22 years old.

"He was the spirit and the heartbeat of the team. A cool, calculating footballer I could trust with my life. He was the supreme professional, the best I ever worked with. Without him England would never have won the World Cup."
Sir Alf Ramsey


ALEKSANDER SHALAMANOV

^^ Vs Jairzinho and Eusebio

Two-time Bulgarian Footballer of the Year and twice Bulgarian Sportsman of the Year - A World-class athlete, physically imposing and tough to beat one vs one. Also famous for being an all-round sportsman who was part of the skiing team in the 1960 Winter Olympics and part of the volleyball team for the 1964 Summer Olympics.


ZYGMUNT ANCZOK

Voted Polish Player of the Year and chosen for the 1971 World All-Star Team for Lev Yashin's final match - Anczok was classy and dynamic left-back who was inspired by Giacinto Facchetti's swashbuckling style and the only Pole to feature in all matches in the 1972 Olympic winning run.

Superb on his debut for the National Team in a World Cup qualifier win in front of a 107,000 crowd, Anczok produced some fine performances against Brazil and Argentina during a tour of South America and an "amazing" performance against England in July 1966 at the age of 21 - "I played a sensational match, winning the ball all the time, running around Alan Ball in front of me. I played very quickly, had a lot of shots on goal."

May well have been a house hold name had his career not been cruelly cut short by injury in his mid-20's.

CLODOALDO

Holding midfielder whose positional discipline and brilliance on the ball played a key role in Brazil's 1970 World Cup winning vintage. "Hard tackles" were what he considered as one of his main qualities, but his ability to marry steel and silk was what set him apart from the majority of midfield cloggers. This was no better illustrated than his skinning of four Italians in the build-up to Carlos Alberto's famous goal or in driving forward to grab the crucial equaliser in the semi-final against Uruguay.

GÉRSON

Second only to Pele in the best international team of all time, 1970 was a tournament in which Gerson was in complete control - dictating midfields with his customary elegance, vision and range of passing. Man of the match in the final against Facchetti's Italy when he swung the game in Brazil's favour with a barnstorming strike to take the lead midway through the second half.

Most famous for his technical and cerebral quality, his defensive game is somewhat under-appreciated with an aggression and commitment to the tackle not typical of the archetypal deep-lying playmaker.

TEO CUBILLAS

Major talent who fired in 10 World Cup goals in 1970 (where he was voted the best young player) and 1978. A dynamic player full of pace and punch, the Peruvian packed plenty of end product, plundering almost 340 goals during his career. A unanimous choice as the greatest Peru player of all time - the architect of their greatest ever team and ranked 17th in the continent - ahead of some real legends like Romario, Falcao, Spencer, Rivelino and Rocha.

JAIRZINHO

A deadly mix of winger and goalscorer, of dribbling and scoring, of stretching play out wide and overloading the centre, of nimble feet and powerful presence: Jairzinho brought together the full package. The only player to score in every match of a World Cup finals tournament.

PELE

GERD MULLER

The greatest goalscorer of all time. Boasts a devastating record on the highest stage: goals in the 1974 and 1975 European Cup Finals, in both of the 1976 semi-finals, winner in the 1970 World Cup quarters, two in the semi-finals, and further goals in the finals of Euro '72 and World Cup '74.

 

[Joga Bonito]

DEFENSE

Thrice Bundesliga Goalkeeper of the Year, Schalke's legend, Norbert Nigbur stands guard between the sticks. He was a phenomenal shot stopper, saving 23 out of the 71 penalties that he faced whilst also holding the record for the consecutive clean sheets in the Bundesliga for over 10 years.

Quite simply the greatest defender of all time, Franz Beckenbauer would be in his pomp here surrounded by complementary personnel and cerebral influences - such as Netzer and Carlos Alberto which makes for the tantalising prospect of some truly sumptuous build up play. Be it marshalling the defensive line or striding forward elegantly, Beckenbauer would be at the peak of his powers here.

Der Kaiser's trusted lieutenant Hans-Georg Schwarzenbeck, was a rock-like figure at the back who dove-tailed seamlessly with Beckenbauer. Together they formed an impenetrable barricade which was the foundation on which the all-conquering German and Bayern sides were built upon. One of the greatest central defensive duos ever and arguably the most successful defensive combination of all time, they swept aside everything in front of them - 3 European Cups, 1 World Cup, 1 European Championships, 4 Bundesligas, 3 DFB Pokals, 1 UEFA Cup winners Cup and 1 Intercontinental Cup.

The Greatest Ranger Ever, John Greig provides both steel and class in equal measure at the left-back position. It was in this role that he was twice voted as the Scottish footballer of the year and netted a record 13 goals in the 67/68 campaign. The Scotsman was the bedrock around which the Scottish and Rangers defense were built around. He provided plenty of bite, defensive solidity and was an excellent man-marker, frequently being entrusted to square up against the tricky Jinky Johnstone.

Spoiler: Quotes

I had my usual tussle with wee Jimmy and I had him on top of those bales at regular intervals. By the time the teams trooped off at half-time, the wee man looked like Wurzel Gummidge because of the amount of straw he had in his hair.

Rangers would play John Greig at left-back against us to thump wee Jimmy. In one game, in the first five minutes, Greig went right through Jimmy and sent him off the park and on to the running track. I went right up to Willie Henderson and said, "Hey wee man, you're getting the same as Greig just dished out to wee Jinky". He turned and looked at me, alarmed, "What have I done to you?"

John Greig was all hustle and bustle, putting himself about all over the pitch and giving everything for the cause. He could put in the welly, too, as Jimmy Johnstone could have told you! I'm not saying he was dirty, but he was hard and there is a world of a difference between the two.

It was a transcendental moment in football history that also illustrated the full extent of the type of player a right-back could be. And we’re not talking the run and drive that rounded off both Brazil’s flowing move in the 1970 final as well as the tournament itself. Rather, it was another famous moment from Mexico 1970. But an oft-forgotten part of it. Gambolling forward, Carlos Alberto hit an exquisite 40-yard ball with the outside of his right foot that fell perfectly into Jairzinho’s path - a move which would soon herald the greatest save the game has ever seen.

It was that outrageous technique, allied to pure tenacity and intelligence, which made Carlos Alberto such an outstanding all-round defender and the perfect right back. Not to mention the captain of the greatest international side of all time.



MIDFIELD

Iron Lung Herbert 'Hacki' Wimmer was an irrepressible piston in the engine room, tirelessly toiling around and being the defensive lynchpin in midfield. A renowned combative water-carrier, Wimmer was actually an accomplished all-round midfielder imbued with blistering pace, intelligent movement, great passing skills and electric dribbling skills, which gave rise to his nickname 'Hacki' whilst his other nickname is fairly self-explanatory. In fact he took over the mantle of being the creative influence when Netzer left for Real and led Gladbach to 3 consecutive Bundesliga titles, an European Cup final and an UEFA Cup.

The cornerstone of the enthralling Gladbach vintage and the greatest German national side of all time, Günter 'von karajan' Netzer will reprise his usual role as the orchestrating maestro. With the sheer fluidity, pace and technique on show here, the harbinger of chaos would thrive being the hub of this free flowing side, and will actively look to combine with Beckenbauer, create a slew of chances for his forwards whilst rampaging forward lethally whenever he spots an opening. The Greatest German Playmaker ever has the ideal platform here, with complementary midfielders and rapier-like forwards, to wreak havoc.

The effervescent and ubiquitous Alan Ball was a real livewire on the ball, capable of leaving one Schnellinger on his arse repeatedly, whilst being a real terrier off it and could cover every single blade of the grass. An unique footballing package with his infectious enthusiasm, sublime skill, boundless energy, goalscoring knack, sheer consistency, flame coloured hair, high pitched voice and white boots, Ball was a real whipper snapper. It was Ball who was key to the wingless wonders of 1966, and stepped up to the plate when Charlton was having an off day against ze Germans in the 1966 WC final, winning the MOTM and put in a virtuoso midfield performance.


OFFENSE

Does this guy even need an introduction? George Best's wizardry was capable of leaving the greatest defenders in knots and with twisted blood. Best was a defender's, nay a defense's nightmare come true. No words can ever truly capture the very genius of this wing wizard, so I guess a youtube compilation will have to suffice

Facing the formidable and whirlwind duo of Denis Law and Eusébio would prove to be a daunting task for just about any defender out there. Not only were they magnificently gifted players technically, they were also forces of nature, capable of laying waste to defenses with their devastating explosiveness. Eusébio was arguably the most explosive and complete goalscoring forward of all time, alongside El Fenomeno, and his mind-boggling runs allied with his sheer power and deadly finishing, made him a truly unstoppable force. Law on the other hand was a selfless and a total footballing craftsman, who mastered the dualities of being a spearheading goalscorer and a dropping deep facilitator, to absolute perfection. The pair together boast a stunning 1012 goals, 2 Ballon d'Ors, 2 European Cups, 1 World Cup Golden Boot, 4 European Top Scorer accolades amongst other trophies. It truly is a match made in heaven.

 

[Gio]

the areas with the least resistance to goal and the most favourable match-ups are Best against Shalamanov, Netzer being relatively unshackled and Ball against Anczok

Anczok and Ball have already faced up, meeting in July 1966, when Ball was at the top of his game:

Anczok produced an "amazing" performance:

I played a sensational match, winning the ball all the time, running around Alan Ball in front of me. I played very quickly, had a lot of shots on goal.

If Ball can keep tabs on Anczok, he'll be doing well in that battle. Previous experience shows that might be a big ask.

 

[Joga Bonito]

All the best @Joga Bonito

You too mate.

 

[harms]

Johnstone isn't on the pitch today (Greig's write-up). Lazy!

 

[Joga Bonito]

Anczok and Ball have already faced up, meeting in July 1966, when Ball was at the top of his game:

Anczok produced an "amazing" performance:


If Ball can keep tabs on Anczok, he'll be doing well in that battle. Previous experience shows that might be a big ask.

I'm sorry but you have it the other way around. You sport Anczok and Shalamanov, a 10th round pick and a 11th round pick, who quite simply aren't final material here. They might have been decent defenders but they in no way are a match-up against Best nor Ball with the support of one of the greatest full-backs ever in C.Alberto. Those are the most advantageous match-ups on the entire pitch. Ball was someone who ran both Schnellinger and Marzolini ragged in the World Cup of all stages. I doubt Anczok, as decent as he might have been, might be able to keep tabs on that.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Johnstone isn't on the pitch today (Greig's write-up). Lazy!

My bad

 

[Gio]

I'm sorry but you have it the other way around. You sport Anczok and Shalamanov, a 10th round pick and a 11th round pick, who quite simply aren't final material here. They might have been decent defenders but they in no way are a match-up against Best nor Ball with the support of one of the greatest full-backs ever in C.Alberto. Those are the most advantageous match-ups on the entire pitch. Ball was someone who ran both Schnellinger and Marzolini ragged in the World Cup of all stages. I doubt Anczok as decent as he might have been might be able to keep tabs on that.

Where these players came in the picking order is largely irrelevant. Ball was a fine, energetic player but there's a danger of reinventing how good he was. They both had a direct match-up in 1966 and Anczok came out on top - and that was when Ball was at his best, with Anczok still emerging as a talent. Ultimately he'd go on to become the best left-back in the world for a couple of years between Facchetti and Krol. Ball just never got to that level.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Where these players came in the picking order is largely irrelevant. Ball was a fine, energetic player but there's a danger of reinventing how good he was. They both had a direct match-up in 1966 and Anczok came out on top - and that was when Ball was at his best, with Anczok still emerging as a talent. Ultimately he'd go on to become the best left-back in the world for a couple of years between Facchetti and Krol. Ball just never got to that level.

And just what do you base this on? On a non-official friendly match for FIFA XI during Yashin's testimonial? Btw, could you provide the entire team sheet for that match? The likes of Mészöly were featuring in that match and I wouldn't rush to call him the world's greatest centre back during that era.

Facchetti was still making WC and European Cup finals during 1970-1972 and was still arguably the greatest left back and Krol was in the due process of winning 3 consecutive European Cups and league titles. Anczok was never was the best left back in the world and I highly doubt if he was anywhere near that level. Btw has he ever featured in any significant European Cup competitions or in any significant International tounraments bar the Olympics? I normally wouldn't ask for his credentials but given that he was the world's left back in the world for a couple of years, I'd love to know more about this.

Also surely 'the best left back in the world for a couple of years' must have at least gotten a single ballon d'Or vote during the span of his entire career right? Doesn't seem to be the case here.

Whereas you have Ball, who finished 7th in the ballon d'Or (featured in the ballon d'Or list three more times during the 60s) with only Moore and Charlton finishing above him from England in 1966, being a pivotal influence to England's victory in 1966, driving the likes of Schnellinger and Marzolini to the ground in the quarter final and winning the MOTM in the final. He was twice transferred for the British record tranfer fee and won the title for Everton, finished runners up with Arsenal during a tough era and is widely regarded as Everton's greatest player ever after one Dixie Dean. Not on the level of Anczok?

Labelling him the greatest left back in the world and claiming Ball never reached the level of Anczok is extremely disingenuous and ridiculous to say the least. Really wasn't expecting that from you at all Gio... Now I really don't want to be too harsh on him but all those statements are simply forcing my hand here.

 

[green_smiley]

@Rado_N could you please help to add a poll?

Who will win based on all the players at their peaks?
Gio & Theon
Joga Bonito

Poll closed after: 1 day

Thanks

@Rado_N I create the poll myself as you are not around since yesterday

Football draft. Serious business

Thanks

 

[Gio]

And just what do you base this on? On a non-official friendly match for Yashin's testimonial? Facchetti was still making WC and European Cup final during 1970-1972 and was still arguably the greatest left backs and Krol was in the due process of winning 3 consecutive European Cups and league titles. He never was the best left back in the world.

Based on a few things:

• Facchetti slowing up in the 1970s (and moving to sweeper) and Krol, a couple of years younger than Anczok, still emerging. That's not to say he was as brilliant as those two, but in the gap between their peaks, he filled it
• Anczok's performance level throughout his international career. Highly recognised for his displays against Brazil, Argentina, England, Scotland, Soviet Union, Hungary, West Germany, etc.
• His qualities: his pace, agility, technical tidiness: he was an athlete and he's not going to get outrun by Ball.

Let's be honest: it's largely because he's from the wrong side of the Iron Curtain that he doesn't get the recognition he, otherwise, would. Similarly, injuries in his late 20s didn't help the legacy. But there's little doubt he was a fearsome and under-appreciated full-back.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Based on a few things:

• Facchetti slowing up in the 1970s (and moving to sweeper) and Krol, a couple of years younger than Anczok, still emerging. That's not to say he was as brilliant as those two, but in the gap between their peaks, he filled it
• Anczok's performance level throughout his international career. Highly recognised for his displays against Brazil, Argentina, England, Scotland, Soviet Union, Hungary, West Germany, etc.
• His qualities: his pace, agility, technical tidiness: he was an athlete and he's not going to get outrun by Ball.

Let's be honest: it's largely because he's from the wrong side of the Iron Curtain that he doesn't get the recognition he, otherwise, would. Similarly, injuries in his late 20s didn't help the legacy. But there's little doubt he was a fearsome and under-appreciated full-back.

Just how did he fill it and where is all I'm asking? It just seems bizarre to me that the best left back in the world didn't even get a single ballon d'Or vote during his entire career and nor do I ever recognise him from any international or European tournaments. You seem to be fairly well-informed on his talents and making claims such as Ball not reaching his level, and Anczok being the best left back in the world between Facchetti and Krol. Can you recommend me a match of his, would love to watch more of him.

Also on the lack of recognition part, it didn't really affect the likes of Tomaszewski, Gadocha, Deyna, Lubanski, Dzajic did it?

 

[Joga Bonito]

Can't see the votes @green_smiley

 

[Gio]

Just how did he fill it and where is all I'm asking? It just seems bizarre to me that the best left back in the world didn't even get a single ballon d'Or vote during his career and nor do I ever recognise him from any international or European tournaments. You seem to be fairly well-informed on his talents and making claims such as Ball not reaching his level and Anczok being the best left back in the world between Facchetti and Krol. Can you recommend me a match of his, would love to watch more of him.

Also on the lack of recognition part, it didn't really affect the likes of Tomaszewski, Gadocha, Deyna, Lubanski, Dzajic did it?

On the contrary, I'd argue that the reputation of those players would be much higher had they played for a Western European power. Deyna and Lubanski have brilliant international records but often fly below the radar when discussing the best players from that era. You'll know yourself that you had to sell every last drop of Gadocha to get the rest of us to fairly appreciate him. We had to do the same with Deyna. Yet their exploits at the 1974 World Cup for instance were that exceptional, those arguments shouldn't need to be said.

Re the Ballon D'Or - full-backs just generally don't feature in these kinds of votes. There is inevitably a bias towards attackers, creative midfielders, ball-playing liberos before we even get round to keepers and full-backs. For example, I think Andreas Brehme might be the only full-back in the last 30 years to win a player of the year award in one of the three major European leagues. Which is why the fact Shalamanov won it twice in Bulgaria - from full-back - is particularly telling.

 

[green_smiley]

Can't see the votes @green_smiley

Edited

 

[green_smiley]

Edited

Actually, nothing has changed

 

[Joga Bonito]

On the contrary, I'd argue that the reputation of those players would be much higher had they played for a Western European power. Deyna and Lubanski have brilliant international records but often fly below the radar when discussing the best players from that era. You'll know yourself that you had to sell every last drop of Gadocha to get the rest of us to fairly appreciate him. We had to do the same with Deyna. Yet their exploits at the 1974 World Cup for instance were that exceptional, those arguments shouldn't need to be said.

Re the Ballon D'Or - full-backs just generally don't feature in these kinds of votes. There is inevitably a bias towards attackers, creative midfielders, ball-playing liberos before we even get round to keepers and full-backs. For example, I think Andreas Brehme might be the only full-back in the last 30 years to win a player of the year award in one of the three major European leagues. Which is why the fact Shalamanov won it twice in Bulgaria - from full-back - is particularly telling.

Even if we discount greats such as Facchetti, Schnellinger, Krol, Roberto Carlos, Brehme, Breitner, Vogts etc, the likes of Gemmell, Fazlagic, Cooper, Greig etc all featured on the ballon d'Or shortlists during the timespan of Anczok alone for example.

Btw, you still haven't explained what exactly it is that Anczok did to become the best left back between Facchetti and Krol in the 70s and attain a level that was unreachable by Alan Ball. Also would love for you to provide a link to a full match of his if possible.

 

[Gio]

Btw, you still haven't explained what exactly it is that Anczok did to become the best left back between Facchetti and Krol in the 70s and attain a level that was unreachable by Alan Ball. Also would love for you to provide a link to a full match of his if possible.

Re-iterate the same post:

• Facchetti slowing up in the 1970s (and moving to sweeper) and Krol, a couple of years younger than Anczok, still emerging. That's not to say he was as brilliant as those two, but in the gap between their peaks, he filled it
• Anczok's performance level throughout his international career. Highly recognised for his displays against Brazil, Argentina, England, Scotland, Soviet Union, Hungary, West Germany, etc.
• His qualities: his pace, agility, technical tidiness: he was an athlete and he's not going to get outrun by Ball.

Let's be honest: it's largely because he's from the wrong side of the Iron Curtain that he doesn't get the recognition he, otherwise, would. Similarly, injuries in his late 20s didn't help the legacy. But there's little doubt he was a fearsome and under-appreciated full-back.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Re-iterate the same post:

• Facchetti slowing up in the 1970s (and moving to sweeper) and Krol, a couple of years younger than Anczok, still emerging. That's not to say he was as brilliant as those two, but in the gap between their peaks, he filled it
• Anczok's performance level throughout his international career. Highly recognised for his displays against Brazil, Argentina, England, Scotland, Soviet Union, Hungary, West Germany, etc.
• His qualities: his pace, agility, technical tidiness: he was an athlete and he's not going to get outrun by Ball.

Let's be honest: it's largely because he's from the wrong side of the Iron Curtain that he doesn't get the recognition he, otherwise, would. Similarly, injuries in his late 20s didn't help the legacy. But there's little doubt he was a fearsome and under-appreciated full-back.

Could you provide links, or articles backing this up please, seeing as you don't seem to have any video evidence? Cheers.

 

[Gio]

Could you provide links, or articles backing this up please, seeing as you don't seem to have any video evidence? Cheers.

A bit more on Anczok to get a feel for what kind of player he was...

His international career began in 1965 when he played against Scotland. At the time of his arrival in the national game, a player of such speed and agility was practically unheard of in Poland, and he frequently was substituted into games to bring to his teams extra power in not just defense, but attack.

Anczok was given an opportunity in 1966 to go on a tour of South America, where he more than held his own against players such as Pelé.

I obviously haven't invented those quotes - they've been in use since the start of the draft and it's just fortunate he's now up against Ball.

Video evidence? It's a pity there's not a lot available, but that shouldn't reflect on the player. One of the full games that is on Youtube is the Poland v Hungary 1972 Olympics Final.

Pace and overlapping

Recovery and positioning

Anticipation

Ability to turn in tight spaces

Tackling

 

[MJJ]

@green_smiley delete the poll and start a new ones with votes visible ticked.

 

[green_smiley]

@green_smiley delete the poll and start a new ones with votes visible ticked.

Option was selected from the start. For some reason, it does not show. Couldn't delete the poll either

@Damien or any mods, please help. Thanks

 

[Joga Bonito]

I obviously haven't invented those quotes - they've been in use since the start of the draft and it's just fortunate he's now up against Ball.

Video evidence? It's a pity there's not a lot available, but that shouldn't reflect on the player. One of the full games that is on Youtube is the Poland v Hungary 1972 Olympics Final.

It's not fortunate that he is up against Alan Ball here.

Anczok and Ball have already faced up, meeting in July 1966, when Ball was at the top of his game:

Firstly, it was essentially a meaningless preparatory game for a World Cup where Sir Alf Ramsey was still tweaking his set-up and experimenting with his formation (4-3-3/4-2-4 etc before arriving at the wingless wonders set-up) and the prime purpose of these matches were to mainly get the fitness levels of the players up to the mark.

Early performances in 1965-66 were less impressive, but in December, England, with Stiles, Ball and Charlton in midfield and Roger Hunt, Eastham
and Joe Baker up front, beat Spain 2-0 in a performance of overwhelming quality. Ramsey, realising just how potent his system was, immediately
decided to place it under wraps. ‘I think it would be quite wrong to let the rest of the world, our rivals, see what we are doing,’ he told Brian James of theMail. ‘I think it is my duty to protect certain players until the time we need them most. This was a step and a very big one in our education as a football party. My job will be to produce the right team at the right time and that does not always mean pressing ahead with a particular combination just because it has been successful.’

Ramsey went back to a 4-2-4 for a friendly draw against Poland and a 1-0 win over West Germany. Geoff Hurst made his debut that day, and
immediately struck up an understanding with Hunt. A subsequent 4-3 victory over Scotland pleased the fans and the media, but it confirmed in Ramsey’s
mind what he already knew: that defensively the 4-2-4 was inadequate.

You essentially had Ball playing in an intentionally poorly fabricated set-up against Poland with Alf Ramsey not wanting England to be at their best. It was a meaningless match as meaningless matches go and you are using that match as an example as to why Ball would struggle against Anczok?

So you are basically labelling him 'the best left-back in the world for a couple of years between Facchetti and Krol' based on a few friendly matches, which happened in 1966 btw, and on the basis of Olympics which honestly isn't a significant international football tournament, and claimed that Ball never reached the level that Anczok managed to. Seriously mate? Once again, I don't want to be too harsh on Anczok but you are simply forcing my hand here with some truly bizarre statements which has to be set right, lest it wrongly influence some of the voters. Seriously though, he was a decent full back and arguably the greatest Polish left back of all time but you seriously went overboard with your appraisal of him.

 

[Moby]

Edited

Actually, nothing has changed

 

[Damien]

Option was selected from the start. For some reason, it does not show. Couldn't delete the poll either

@Damien or any mods, please help. Thanks

When you click on Edit poll, there isn't an option at bottom saying Delete entire poll?

 

[Damien]

Poll deleted. See if it'll let you create a new one with viewable votes. If it isn't working again I'll look at settings.

 

[green_smiley]

Poll deleted. See if it'll let you create a new one with viewable votes. If it isn't working again I'll look at settings.

It works now. Thanks

 

[green_smiley]

By the way, my vote is just for testing purpose. I may change my vote after this

 

[Gio]

Overboard in praise? You've decided that Alan Ball against Anczok is one of the easiest routes to goal on the park. That's a ridiculous assumption for three reasons:

1. They've met previously. Tactical jiggery-pokery aside, it was still a head-to-head battle where Anczok played a stormer against Ball.
2. Anczok has significant qualities that make him difficult to be beaten. These are well evidenced and recognised. Fair enough, if Best was on the right, you'd have more of a case.
3. Is Ball for all his qualities good enough to get the better of Anczok? Especially when there is evidence to the contrary. Does Ball, for example, make anyone's England all-time XI? Sure there is some stiff competition there, but the level of your praise suggests he'd at least be in the mixer for an all-time spot.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Overboard in praise? You've decided that Alan Ball against Anczok is one of the easiest routes to goal on the park. That's a ridiculous assumption for three reasons:

1. They've met previously - a head-to-head battle where Anczok came out on top. Tactical jiggery-pokery aside, it was still a head-to-head battle where Anczok played a stormer against Ball.

Their match-up was pointless in a game where Alf Ramsey INTENTIONALLY wanted them to be underwhelming by playing them in an ill-advised tactical set-up.

Early performances in 1965-66 were less impressive, but in December, England, with Stiles, Ball and Charlton in midfield and Roger Hunt, Eastham and Joe Baker up front, beat Spain 2-0 in a performance of overwhelming quality. Ramsey, realising just how potent his system was, immediately decided to place it under wraps. ‘I think it would be quite wrong to let the rest of the world, our rivals, see what we are doing,’ he told Brian James of theMail. ‘I think it is my duty to protect certain players until the time we need them most. This was a step and a very big one in our education as a football party. My job will be to produce the right team at the right time and that does not always mean pressing ahead with a particular combination just because it has been successful.’

Ramsey went back to a 4-2-4 for a friendly draw against Poland and a 1-0 win over West Germany. Geoff Hurst made his debut that day, and
immediately struck up an understanding with Hunt. A subsequent 4-3 victory over Scotland pleased the fans and the media, but it confirmed in Ramsey’s
mind what he already knew: that defensively the 4-2-4 was inadequate.

It was a preparatory match for the World Cup for chirst sake, something in which Anczok has never featured in, nor in any European competitions or international tournaments apart from the fairly insignificant Olympics. There is no tactical jiggery-poker there at all and it was designed for England to be bad. Not sure why you aren't getting that.

• Anczok has significant qualities that make him difficult to be beaten. These are well evidenced and recognised. Fair enough, if Best was on the right, you'd have more of a case.

• Is Ball for all his qualities good enough to get the better of Anczok? Especially when there is evidence to the contrary. Does Ball, for example, make anyone's England all-time XI? Sure there is some stiff competition there, but the level of your praise suggests he'd at least be in the mixer for an all-time spot.

Yup the same Alan Ball who tore Schnellinger and Marzolini to shreds, yet would struggle to get the better of Anczok? It's fairly simple, Anczok being the fine player he was, simply isn't final material and is the worst player on the pitch and I doubt any neutral would say otherwise, and here he is up against Alan Ball and Carlos Alberto here without any significant defensive cover. It is one of the easiest routes to goal but tbf, not as easy as Best against Shalamanov or Netzer being relatively unshackled in a midfield trio, being free to strut his stuff.

 

[Gio]

Their match-up was pointless in a game where Alf Ramsey INTENTIONALLY wanted them to be underwhelming by playing them in an ill-advised tactical set-up.
It was a preparatory match for the World Cup for chirst sake, something in which Anczok has never featured in, nor in any European competitions or international tournaments apart from the fairly insignificant Olympics. There is no tactical jiggery-poker there at all and it was designed for England to be bad. Not sure why you aren't getting that.

Sure there was an element of tactical experimentation there. But "designed for England to be bad" sounds like some schoolkid saying "we lost on purpose". You could easily level the same criticism of Anczok's Poland not making the World Cup or Euros as you could of George Best's Northern Ireland. Absurd criticism of course, but it's the same flawed principle.

Importantly Anczok has proven himself when tested against the best international opposition - West Germany, Brazil, England, Argentina, etc - so this assumption that he is going to be overwhelmed by Alan Ball, a player who he has already faced and quelled, is odd. Unless Ball is some sort of hybrid of Finney and Beckham I wasn't aware of.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Sure there was an element of tactical experimentation there. But "designed for England to be bad" sounds like some schoolkid saying "we lost on purpose". You could easily level the same criticism of Anczok's Poland not making the World Cup or Euros as you could of George Best's Northern Ireland. Absurd criticism of course, but it's the same flawed principle.

Importantly Anczok has proven himself when tested against the best international opposition - West Germany, Brazil, England, Argentina, etc - so this assumption that he is going to be overwhelmed by Alan Ball, a player who he has already faced and quelled, is odd. Unless Ball is some sort of hybrid of Finney and Beckham I wasn't aware of.

There wasn't just an element of tactical experimentation there. Sir Alf Ramsey KNEW that the 4-2-4 wasn't a great formation for his side and was ill-suited for his English side prior to the match, by 1964 itself to be exact.

Outright control, though, was only granted from the following May, so Ramsey faced two games in which he worked with the committee. In the first, they selected a W-M, and England lost 5-2 to France in Paris. That persuaded the committee to follow Ramsey’s wishes and switch to a 4-2-4 and, although that brought a 2-1 home defeat to Scotland, he stuck with the formation for most of his early reign.

It was May 1964 and a post-season tour of South America that was to prove key to Ramsey’s tactical development. England had hammered the USA 10-0 in New York - some revenge for Ramsey, having played in the side beaten 1-0 by the USA in Belo Horizonte in 1950 - but, exhausted by the effects of travel and scheduled to play Brazil just three days later, they were thrashed 5-1 by Brazil in their first game of a four-team tournament. A draw against Portugal followed, but it was the third game, against Argentina, that was crucial. Argentina knew a draw would be enough for them to win the competition, and so, the days of la nuestra a distant memory, sat men behind the ball, content to spoil, hold possession and see out time. England, like ‘a bunch of
yokels trying to puzzle their way out of a maze’, as Desmond Hackett put it in the Daily Express, were nonplussed. They dominated the play, but never
looked like scoring and, caught on the break, lost 1-0.

Over that summer, Ramsey rethought his strategy: system, he seems to have decided, was more important than personnel. Ramsey’s taciturn nature
makes it hard to be sure, but it is not implausible to suggest that the two years that followed represent a carefully controlled evolution towards winning the
World Cup.

The players he had been playing wide in a 4-2-4, Bobby Charlton and Peter Thompson, weren’t the kind to track back, and neither could Jimmy
Greaves nor Johnny Byrne, the two centre-forwards, realistically have been asked to drop in. George Eastham, who commonly played as one of the
central midfielders, was a converted inside-forward, and his partner Gordon Milne was no spoiler either.

Ramsey realised that although 4-2-4 was a fine
formation for beating lesser sides, it was unsuitable for playing stronger opponents, and could leave even a markedly better team vulnerable if it had an
off day. In short, the problem came down to the fact that while 4-2-4 was potent when you had possession, it didn’t help you get the ball in the first place.
It is unclear when Ramsey’s thoughts first turned to Nobby Stiles, the combative Manchester United anchor, but what was apparent as soon as he
selected him was that Stiles could not play in a 4-2-4.

So why did he play that set-up in that friendly against Poland, knowing full well that it was a poor set-up?

Early performances in 1965-66 were less impressive, but in December, England, with Stiles, Ball and Charlton in midfield and Roger Hunt, Eastham and Joe Baker up front, beat Spain 2-0 in a performance of overwhelming quality. Ramsey, realising just how potent his system was, immediately decided to place it under wraps. ‘I think it would be quite wrong to let the rest of the world, our rivals, see what we are doing,’ he told Brian James of theMail. ‘I think it is my duty to protect certain players until the time we need them most. This was a step and a very big one in our education as a football party. My job will be to produce the right team at the right time and that does not always mean pressing ahead with a particular combination just because it has been successful.’

Ramsey went back to a 4-2-4 for a friendly draw against Poland and a 1-0 win over West Germany. Geoff Hurst made his debut that day, and
immediately struck up an understanding with Hunt. A subsequent 4-3 victory over Scotland pleased the fans and the media, but it confirmed in Ramsey’s
mind what he already knew: that defensively the 4-2-4 was inadequate.

Like I've stated earlier to keep his wingless wonders set-up under the wraps and also he simply didn't want England to be at their best as the WC opponents would have been closely analysing the host team. So there is nothing absurd about that, except you using an experimental and a really pointless and meaningless match to show how Anczok got the better of Ball.

Importantly Anczok has proven himself when tested against the best international opposition - West Germany, Brazil, England, Argentina, etc

In friendlies...

Now perhaps I might be guilty of overrating Alan Ball - yes he did play a pivotal role for England in 1966 World Cup, coming 7th in the ballon d'Or tormenting the likes of Schnellinger and Marzolini; winning the MOTM in the WC final; yes he was twice transferred for British transfer record fees and won the league with Everton being part of their holy trinity and being regarded as their greatest player ever after Dixie Dean; yes he captained Arsenal to a runners-up league medal in an extremely competitive English league.

I wouldn't necessarily call him a great nor would I put him in an all-time England XI (although it's fair to say he did much more than what most of those 'individuals' did on the international stage - win the WC). However, I do expect him to have the beating of Anczok here.

Even if you don't buy Alan Ball tormenting Anczok, what do you do about the greatest right-back of all time after Djalma Santos, being free to forage forward? How do you expect Anczok to handle Ball in tandem with Carlos Alberto here?

 

[Gio]

In friendlies...

Two points:

1. Friendlies then were fairly significant occasions, rather than the glorified kickabout they are today.
2. Those matches include the qualifiers for Euro '72, when Poland were drawn in West Germany's group (as well as the Olympics which the Eastern European teams once took a lot more seriously).

 

[Joga Bonito]

Two points:

1. Friendlies then were fairly significant occasions, rather than the glorified kickabout they are today.
2. Those matches include the qualifiers for Euro '72, when Poland were drawn in West Germany's group (as well as the Olympics which the Eastern European teams once took a lot more seriously).

Yes, that is true. However, it is the fact that you are primarily, nay exclusively using friendlies and a fairly insignificant Olympics (in the grand scheme of things) as the main body of work in elevating Anczcok to being the 'best left-back in the world for a couple of years' which irks me. A casual voter might just read that and take it as it is. That is just a cheap ploy.

 

[Rado_N]

@Rado_N I create the poll myself as you are not around since yesterday

Football draft. Serious business

Thanks

Sorry mate, in Denver so it was like 4am or something here when you tagged me.

 

[Gol123]

Gio/Theons team is insane.