Not a riot but that played a large part of the frustrations that led to this.
Policing is just shit, apparently the attacker was arrested and let go on a knife charge a few months ago. It needs a major overhaul, it’s letting everybody down
5 stabbed in Dublin | 3 of them children
- Thread starter RexHamilton
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Policing is just shit, apparently the attacker was arrested and let go on a knife charge a few months ago. It needs a major overhaul, it’s letting everybody down
Are you sure they were racially diverse? That's not what I've seen. I did see an Irish lives matter sign and people shouting 'go back to where you came from'.
An English friend of mine who's black was spat on by a mob. A taximan got her out of there. Weirdly, they seemed to back off a bit when they heard her English accent.
I know there were a lot of young fellas looking to wreck the place who joined in but that was later according to what I've read. This was initially started by the anti-immigration racist right wing element.
There’s no space in the prisons for them. What they can judges do really? We need more prisons, and fast.
Any news on the woman and child? There must be recent news as to how they will both be. I’m hoping no news is good news
Yeah probably worth mentioning in all this that Ashling Murphy’s grieving boyfriend released a statement last week which made reference to her killer as a foreign scrounger. Was widely shared and would have had most of the country nodding in agreement. Almost certainly played a role in driving the anger on Thursday.
That's disappointing, especially when Palestine has very few friends at state level in the western world. It's concerning how effective the right wing anti immigration is ravaging the world.
Poverty and disenfranchisement also plays a part and that is fixable. Less social divide means less policing.
The US have basically militarised their police force and incarcerate at absurd levels but it hasn't helped.
Inevitable. Was listening to a Novarra media podcast on the right wing backlash to support for
Palestine in the UK.
Journo who was on the spot.
Ireland needs to get rid of these far right scumbags. They are an absolute disgrace to Ireland. How can people say Ireland first and listen to Tommy Robinson?
As for what happened it was truly terrible but sadly there are evil and sick people everywhere. You can't blame an entire race or culture for what one individual does.
I got a video sent on whatsapp this week of the Christmas market in Belfast. 2 white young scumbags knocking out a drunk guy totally incapable of defending himself and laughing about it.
Should i now blame all white people and say enough is enough?
As for what happened it was truly terrible but sadly there are evil and sick people everywhere. You can't blame an entire race or culture for what one individual does.
I got a video sent on whatsapp this week of the Christmas market in Belfast. 2 white young scumbags knocking out a drunk guy totally incapable of defending himself and laughing about it.
Should i now blame all white people and say enough is enough?
That's brutal.
Most of the country? Quite a few of us saw this as him unhelpfully pushing right wing tropes in his grief or as my brother said he's gone full fash.
Is this even true?
Also what do you think should happen to people who are caught with knives? Should they be given 10 years?
There is massive problem with the depleted numbers of Gardai and a lack of a Garda presence in the City but these kind of revisionist statements add very little and don't really prove anything.
Yes I do think “most of the country” is unfortunately probably accurate.
Unfortunately, I don't see a real solution to any of this sort of behaviour. It's borne from ill-educated, usually somewhat impoverished people raising children terribly(or not raising them at all). They hear all this shit from the time they can understand words, and then barely make it to the Junior Cert in school. Now they are being lead to believe everything shite in their lives is the fault of foreigners, through social media, every day. Not a hope in hell any government we've ever had are capable of changing that situation.
What makes it really depressing is that any kid with a difficult upbringing who beats the odds and ends up with a thoughtful, inquisitive mind can satsfy their thirst for knowledge by immersing themselves in online conspiracy theories and the influence of shitehawk grifters like Mark Tate. A generation ago none of those poisonous influences were available and if they sought out a more conventional education they’d have likely ended up as well rounded individuals.
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Yup, and you also now have generations of men who think it's hilarious to troll about everything, and never evolve from that point as teenagers. Now they're approaching 30 and are just complete right wingers, and it all started from trying to wind people up by being contrarian 15 year olds. I know loads of people like this, all driven from exposure to the internet essentially.
Whatever about the longer term issues which are more difficult to fix, you could at least make dublin city centre safer (and more easily, feel safer) with enough resources and planning, as it's a problem other European cities have had to address in the past. Obviously just pushing the problem to other areas isn't ideal, but it's still better than having it in central tourist, shopping and transport areas.
And I would suspect more could be done to deal with the legit far-right lunatic fringe too with enough resources and targeted changes in law. They're not exactly shy in recording/capturing themselves doing/saying things that could easily constitute inciting violence and it would be remarkable if the money coming in from outside the country didn't raise organised crime or AML questions.
And I would suspect more could be done to deal with the legit far-right lunatic fringe too with enough resources and targeted changes in law. They're not exactly shy in recording/capturing themselves doing/saying things that could easily constitute inciting violence and it would be remarkable if the money coming in from outside the country didn't raise organised crime or AML questions.
Leo was on tv last week (?) saying a lot of refugees were leaving other countries to come here because our benefits was a lot more than UK, France etc were offering and that had to change.
Everything just subtlety being added to the powder keg
They can't hire gardaí these days though, can they? Not sure what you can do without putting more money into the prison system, both in terms of reforming people in there, and making space to put scrotes in in the first place. Far too many people doing whatever they want, as they know there are no real repercussions.
That traditional native Irish name of Rodriguez, of course
Yep. It's terrifying.
Protests by theee clowns have gone on for months where they’ve blocked the busiest roads and bus routes and Luas and asylum hotels and all that and the guards have done nothing. Seriously, I was caught in one where they were blocking the entrance to Dublin airport and there wasn’t a guard in sight to shoo them away for hours. It was crazy. Is it any wonder they now feel they can do whatever the feck they want?
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That's the 2nd child released from hospital. 3rd child remains in critical condition, the teacher who intervened described as in serious condition.
Imo this is nostalgia for the past. A generation ago was what like the 80’s ? A very right wing period of history.
The fear of social media brainwashing the youth is Gen Xers turning into their parents. But instead of video nasties or Mortal Kombat it’s now 10 second tik toks.
The polling shows young people today are more socially liberal and left wing than in the past. Tik tok isn't brainwashing anyone.
Wouldn't say that's a real name.
If it is they probably lack self awareness or they are someone just taking the piss to see if the lads just read that and don't realise how stupid they really are.
All in all, the attitude of that guy speaking is horrific. He should be found and jailed.
I don't buy that at all. I have zero doubt that right wing social media is influencing young people. It's incomparable to the old adages of GTA and horror movies rotting kid's brains, this is targeted extremist rhetoric being show to naive teenagers, who are absolutely ripe for the picking if they don't have good people around them.
Where is this influence having an effect ? It isn’t showing up on polling or voting patterns. There isn’t any mass right wing movement(The anti immigration protests are tiny)and the riot a few days was nothing more than some kids looking for free tv’s.
We have deep inequalities so these social outbursts are going to happen but there isn’t anything to suggest it’s wide spread among the population. Young people enter a globalised labour market with poor working rights, bad wages and very little chance of owning a home this has imo a better effect in people political/social views.
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That may be so, I don’t know, but they don’t feel tiny here. I’m living between Finglas and Ballymun and a lot of the local residents are quite shook by what’s been happening the last year around here. It’s certainly something new, I’ve lived on the northside my whole life (bar a few years abroad) and never thought I’d see this.
You don't need a mass right wing movement. The protests are small and very aggressive. These are not the first flames. A left wing politician had a car set ablaze in his driveway and more than one property rumoured to house asylum seekers has been set on fire.
We have a well funded, extremely activist vanguard. That's all you need when you have the socially disillusioned, or kids looking for free tvs as you call it.
That is the most frequently successful formula. It's not a new formula either. Trotsky said it, "Despair has raised them to their feet, and fascism has given them a banner."
A study of Le Pen voters showed less than 15 were ideologically racist and less than 30 ideologically right wing. I'm going to get that book back and get exact stats. It was a study by post grads in Bruges.
Tiny or not they are frequent and really aggressive. There are also continuous acts of intimidation against libraries over certain books. And in rural areas they are talking about the proposed housing bill ammendment as some sort of Marxist property grab by the state, based on words tgat have been in the constitution since it was written.
That all sounds like the building blocks to me.
Don't you live in London? Maybe you're not being exposed to young Irish people enough to get this feeling, but I have certainly noticed it. It doesn't show up in voting patterns because a lot of them don't vote, I know heaps of people that don't vote, and as I said earlier in the thread, I think it's a situation that is just waiting for a Trump-like figure to appear in Irish politics for you to start seeing those trends in voting.
This is an old article by Fintan O Toole in response to Irish sneering at how easily the US fell for Trump's racist fascist shtick.
We lived in the middle of this and literally moved to Australia to escape it, as my parents wouldn't join in.
"Fintan O’Toole: Fascism lurks beneath the surface of Irish society
Avoiding hatred is not about being nice to Travellers but about preserving democracy
“The first thing that strikes anyone driving around the Tallaght area or the people who live in Tallaght is the barricades, the barrels and the watches which have sprung up at the entrances to estates. Five roads have either been completely blocked off, or blocked off in such a manner that you can only enter or leave if you are allowed to do so by the people who are manning the barricades. What is evident is there is a breakdown of the rule of law and that power and command have been taken over by self-appointed residents in the various estates.”
This is not some dystopian novel. It is Mary Robinson, speaking in the Seanad of which she was then still a member, on June 24th, 1984. She was describing the reality of daily life in the burgeoning suburb of Dublin: roadblocks, barricades, whole estates taken over by vigilantes. At this time, a part of the capital city seemed to be slipping out of the control of the State. The Garda had effectively given up trying up trying to assert any authority over what was happening. The atmosphere was tense, ominous and heavy with threat.
What on earth could have caused this? Hysteria about Travellers. At the beginning of that decade, a large number of Traveller families moved on to the unopened Tallaght bypass and the adjacent land that now contains The Square and Tallaght hospital. Families that were being displaced from other places around Ireland ended up here – at the height of the crisis, there were about 200 caravans and perhaps 150 families. This was not by any means an enormous encampment but, without even the most basic facilities, it was dirty, chaotic and unpleasant. As a standoff developed, it became the focus of violent hostility.
Mary Cummins reported for The Irish Times: “At one meeting, I saw people’s faces distorted, ugly and mean, and heard hatred in their voices. One man from the Travellers’ Rights group tried to address them. He pleaded for their children. ‘Burn them,’ shouted a voice in the crowd to laughter and clapping.” Talking to the people manning the barricades and roadblocks, she was told that the council should “clear the Travellers off”. That word was repeated over and over – the only variant being the rhyming slang “cream crackers” or the older term “tinkers".
‘We’ll burn them’
One of the vigilantes told Cummins that the “Travellers” were “spoiling for a fight” and warned of the consequences: “If it does start, we’ll all be Hitlers. We’ll burn them out and, if there’s kids there, we’ll burn them too. They may be a minority, but they’ll end up like the bleeding Jews.”
In this atmosphere, local leaders who tried to argue for humane and rational solutions themselves became objects of hatred. The parish priest, Fr Travers, was denounced as a “Traveller lover” and one of the vigilantes told Cummins: “See that tree over there. If someone brings him up, I’ll hold the rope.” Less dramatically, there was a big drop in the amount of money being put into the church collection.
Hysteria can easily turn to hatred and hatred can make monsters of us all
The Fianna Fáil TD Chris Flood, who behaved with impeccable decency, later recalled for Vincent Browne that “at 2 o’clock in the morning, there were 200 people meeting in my own estate. The suggestion was that they should march on my house and stone it . . . There was one particular meeting at which one of the organisers proposed if your neighbour supports a Traveller, you were to black them.”
This dragged on for a decade, until eventually the council did what it always should have done, which is to provide small serviced halting sites for the Travellers so they had somewhere to go and could move off the bypass. But in retrospect we need to ask: who were these people with their mean, distorted faces talking of burning children like Hitler burned the Jews and of hanging the parish priest for disloyalty?
Broken decency
They were us: ordinary, decent Irish people. They were under pressure from a bad economy and trying to make lives for their families in a raw and badly planned new part of Ireland. They found themselves in an ugly situation and as civility and decency broke down, they allowed the ugliness to inhabit them. And I would bet that, when this awful time was over, the vast majority went back to being decent and moral. Perhaps sometimes they look back and remember how fragile those qualities are, how easily hysteria can turn to hatred and hatred can make monsters of us all.
And that’s why most people in public life have tried not to let this happen again. Politicians in Tallaght like Flood and Mervyn Taylor and Pat Rabbitte looked into this abyss and knew they had to try to lead people away from it. They took the abuse and held their nerve. Not primarily for the sake of the Travellers (though of course their needs mattered) but for the sake of mainstream Irish society. There is a capacity for fascism that lurks beneath the surface of every society. If opportunistic politicians dig down into it, it can emerge. So they shouldn’t. This is not political correctness. It is the condition for the survival of democracy."
We lived in the middle of this and literally moved to Australia to escape it, as my parents wouldn't join in.
"Fintan O’Toole: Fascism lurks beneath the surface of Irish society
Avoiding hatred is not about being nice to Travellers but about preserving democracy
“The first thing that strikes anyone driving around the Tallaght area or the people who live in Tallaght is the barricades, the barrels and the watches which have sprung up at the entrances to estates. Five roads have either been completely blocked off, or blocked off in such a manner that you can only enter or leave if you are allowed to do so by the people who are manning the barricades. What is evident is there is a breakdown of the rule of law and that power and command have been taken over by self-appointed residents in the various estates.”
This is not some dystopian novel. It is Mary Robinson, speaking in the Seanad of which she was then still a member, on June 24th, 1984. She was describing the reality of daily life in the burgeoning suburb of Dublin: roadblocks, barricades, whole estates taken over by vigilantes. At this time, a part of the capital city seemed to be slipping out of the control of the State. The Garda had effectively given up trying up trying to assert any authority over what was happening. The atmosphere was tense, ominous and heavy with threat.
What on earth could have caused this? Hysteria about Travellers. At the beginning of that decade, a large number of Traveller families moved on to the unopened Tallaght bypass and the adjacent land that now contains The Square and Tallaght hospital. Families that were being displaced from other places around Ireland ended up here – at the height of the crisis, there were about 200 caravans and perhaps 150 families. This was not by any means an enormous encampment but, without even the most basic facilities, it was dirty, chaotic and unpleasant. As a standoff developed, it became the focus of violent hostility.
Mary Cummins reported for The Irish Times: “At one meeting, I saw people’s faces distorted, ugly and mean, and heard hatred in their voices. One man from the Travellers’ Rights group tried to address them. He pleaded for their children. ‘Burn them,’ shouted a voice in the crowd to laughter and clapping.” Talking to the people manning the barricades and roadblocks, she was told that the council should “clear the Travellers off”. That word was repeated over and over – the only variant being the rhyming slang “cream crackers” or the older term “tinkers".
‘We’ll burn them’
One of the vigilantes told Cummins that the “Travellers” were “spoiling for a fight” and warned of the consequences: “If it does start, we’ll all be Hitlers. We’ll burn them out and, if there’s kids there, we’ll burn them too. They may be a minority, but they’ll end up like the bleeding Jews.”
In this atmosphere, local leaders who tried to argue for humane and rational solutions themselves became objects of hatred. The parish priest, Fr Travers, was denounced as a “Traveller lover” and one of the vigilantes told Cummins: “See that tree over there. If someone brings him up, I’ll hold the rope.” Less dramatically, there was a big drop in the amount of money being put into the church collection.
Hysteria can easily turn to hatred and hatred can make monsters of us all
The Fianna Fáil TD Chris Flood, who behaved with impeccable decency, later recalled for Vincent Browne that “at 2 o’clock in the morning, there were 200 people meeting in my own estate. The suggestion was that they should march on my house and stone it . . . There was one particular meeting at which one of the organisers proposed if your neighbour supports a Traveller, you were to black them.”
This dragged on for a decade, until eventually the council did what it always should have done, which is to provide small serviced halting sites for the Travellers so they had somewhere to go and could move off the bypass. But in retrospect we need to ask: who were these people with their mean, distorted faces talking of burning children like Hitler burned the Jews and of hanging the parish priest for disloyalty?
Broken decency
They were us: ordinary, decent Irish people. They were under pressure from a bad economy and trying to make lives for their families in a raw and badly planned new part of Ireland. They found themselves in an ugly situation and as civility and decency broke down, they allowed the ugliness to inhabit them. And I would bet that, when this awful time was over, the vast majority went back to being decent and moral. Perhaps sometimes they look back and remember how fragile those qualities are, how easily hysteria can turn to hatred and hatred can make monsters of us all.
And that’s why most people in public life have tried not to let this happen again. Politicians in Tallaght like Flood and Mervyn Taylor and Pat Rabbitte looked into this abyss and knew they had to try to lead people away from it. They took the abuse and held their nerve. Not primarily for the sake of the Travellers (though of course their needs mattered) but for the sake of mainstream Irish society. There is a capacity for fascism that lurks beneath the surface of every society. If opportunistic politicians dig down into it, it can emerge. So they shouldn’t. This is not political correctness. It is the condition for the survival of democracy."
That's wonderful news and hopefully the third child as well as the teacher will make it out.
https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-la...ted-over-cherry-orchard-car-ramming-incident/
This feels like it might provide some context or a useful reminder for what happened on thursday. Gardai have been hallowed out and are a paper tiger. Thats why we need to drag the army out to deal with a few hundred teenagers.
This feels like it might provide some context or a useful reminder for what happened on thursday. Gardai have been hallowed out and are a paper tiger. Thats why we need to drag the army out to deal with a few hundred teenagers.
Can you give me one example of aggressive armed policing being any long term solution?
On top of that the army are not trained as police officers.
So all in all I can't agree that the solution to nascent fascism is a militarised police force. If anything it'll speed up the process.
In fairness that kind of thing has been happening in Cherry Orchard since it was built.
I kind of missed half a dozen posts so the timing of that post doesn't really make sense. I agree basically. The Trotsky quote is a good point, well made.
Social Care and Mental Health services should have been all over this stuff long before we got to Thursday. But they dont exist in any meaningful sense in Ireland. I guess i'm just surprised they've let policing descend to the same state.
We need a change of government and governance.
Yep. We have the means to fix all of these issues, just not the political will.