It's really not though. Last season we were WDDDDDLL against top 5 in the PL, L to City in the League Cup and L to Leicester in the FA cup (we W against Liverpool the round before for balance).Don't think this has got enough attention. Ole's record at the top level is awful. 7 in 11 is not even amateur stuff. His record domestically is very good in comparison. Why is there such a disparity between the results in Europe and domestic league/cup football?
I remember us being defensively all over the place in Istanbul, and resting players when a win would have meant we qualified from a tough group.You think? We actually created a bunch of chances in that game. Check this shit out…
2 losses against PSG
2 losses against Barcelona with Messi
With the team we had when we played them we were underdogs I would think.
The other three were not great though.
Barcelona lost 4-0 to Liverpool and 8-2 to Bayern Munich with Messi around.We've played PSG 4 times, 2 wins 2 losses - a fair record.
We've played RB Leipzig 2 times, 1 win 1 loss - not great, but it happens.
We've played Barca 2 times, both losses - this was when we had a shit squad, and Messi was still at Barca.
We've played Istabul 2 times, 1 win 1 loss - that loss was catastrophic.
We've played Young Boys once, and lost - an unfortunate loss due to a red card, and a brainless moment from Lingard.
It's not great, but hyperbole always makes things seem worse.
He lost to two inferior teams (Young boys and last season to that Turkish club) with much better and improved squads. It's not the players, it's the managerwhy the insult? Are you incapable of speaking like an adult?
But it's not bizarre to judge Ole's record in UCL a few weeks into the job halfway into a season with an inherited team including the likes of Valencia, Young, Smalling and Jones for starters? Thanks a perfectly normal thing to judge him on?
Have mercy on his soul!I don’t like to insult people, but when I do it’s by unleashing some vicious insults like asking them if they’re feeling well.
Yes they did, and Liverpool and Bayern Munich had superior teams and squads to us at the time too. If we drew them I would have expected to be beaten too.Barcelona lost 4-0 to Liverpool and 8-2 to Bayern Munich with Messi around.
I mean we also lost to PSG last season at home with an improved squad from our first two encounters with them in Solskjaer's first season. You expect united to be beaten by certain clubs? What have we become?Yes they did, and Liverpool and Bayern Munich had superior teams and squads to us at the time too. If we drew them I would have expected to be beaten too.
There's a lot of pressure on the next two home group games.
We did yes, although you could say the red card swayed that result.I mean we also lost to PSG last season at home with an improved squad from our first two encounters with them in Solskjaer's first season. You expect united to be beaten by certain clubs? What have we become?
Yeah severe lack of experience in Ole and the coaching staff with bugger all being done about thatRead today that Ole said loss was down to EXPERIENCE. Does he mean himself and his coaches.
3 semi finals and a final loss tells something.
Again. The question was not "how good/bad is Atalanta's record". Atalanta did lose its first ever CL games, I said so in my initial post.So firstly, we’ve established it wasn’t 3 loses. Secondly, you’ve missed out the first three group games of 2019 of which they lost all 3.
That’s a hell of a way to cherry pick the stats.
You’ve lost me. You were the one that bought up their past 15 game record and compared it directly to United's 11 game record. You clearly picked that number to avoid having the extra three losses, making it look better.Again. The question was not "how good/bad is Atalanta's record". Atalanta did lose its first ever CL games, I said so in my initial post.
You initial post was :
"I’m going to go out on a limb and say no teams last 11 fixtures in the champions league look like that. "
I only meant to give you an example of a team's last run of games and that you don't need to lose 7 out of 11 just because you are playing strong opposition. Restricting Atalanta's run from 15 to 11 -as your initial post suggests- won't increase the number of losses.
The fact remains Atalanta played many adversaries way above their level in the last 11/15 and only lost 4.
Olé met teams that are in no way as much superior to his side as City, Liverpool, and Madrid are to Atalanta and he managed to lose 7 out of 11.
His record vs the top 5 & Leicester in the PL and across the cups has been pretty great since he's been here though.It's really not though. Last season we were WDDDDDLL against top 5 in the PL, L to City in the League Cup and L to Leicester in the FA cup (we W against Liverpool the round before for balance).
Therefore in total encounters with top 5 clubs we were: WWDDDDDLLLL
(Please feel free to check, I manually did this from United website so might have missed something)
Not last season it wasn't. 2-6-4 in the league. Lost to Leicester and City in the cups.His record vs the top 5 & Leicester in the PL and across the cups has been pretty great since he's been here though.
Yea but since his time here his record is near as good as Liverpool & City’s (the two standout teams in that time). Last season was probably the worst from a top 5 perspective.Not last season it wasn't. 2-6-4 in the league. Lost to Leicester and City in the cups.
I don't even really agree with looking at last season as it stands but it's the closest thing we have for comparison, particularly given it was a weird covid season, but if you're going further back for reference his PL results against City, Chelsea, Pool and Leicester are (in chronological order):His record vs the top 5 & Leicester in the PL and across the cups has been pretty great since he's been here though.
check out my reply to someone who said the same. Yes, on the manager but only yes to one of the players (sabitzer). Upamecano is hugely overrated if you ask me, has Konate even started for Liverpool ?They have lost their manager and a few players so that would be an irrelevant comparison.
I think the point is, it fell in some time agoIts a poor record. Been some difficult fixtures in there though. Had hoped we would beat Young Boys. They to me looked the easiest 6 points to get on the board in our group. Its not the hardest group ever but Atalanta and Villareal aren’t exactly pub teams and have decent european records. Not much breathing space for us now.
Think the red card changed it all last night. We were value for a point which was okay under circumstances but you cant plan around catastrophic errors and red cards so a bit kneejerk for some to act like the sky has fallen in.
Such a disappointing result. Feel for Lingard as I’m sure he’ll get some abuse after that, but this is all on Ole
Who are the elite now though?We did yes, although you could say the red card swayed that result.
And I do expect us to be beaten by certain clubs. We were spoiled by Fergie in many ways.
I think we are still a level below the elite, not helped by a big central midfielder shaped hole on the pitch. However I think that this is a strongest we have been since 2013 and if we get some luck we could win a trophy or two this season.
Those were far from the only problems in that game.How is it all on Ole? Did he make AWB sent off? Did he make Lingard pull off a howler?
Multiple reports that their players all disagree with the new managers tactics and lots of Leipzig fans don’t think he’ll last long there. Even if they had the same squad, they are not the same team that finished second in the BL last year. They’ve already lost 3 of their first 4 games in the league.check out my reply to someone who said the same. Yes, on the manager but only yes to one of the players (sabitzer). Upamecano is hugely overrated if you ask me, has Konate even started for Liverpool ?
True but before the sending off we were winning and fairly comfortable.Those were far from the only problems in that game.
3-1 away at PSG was an even-ish game. In the 2-1 win last year we played them off the park.Just looking through those performances and most were awful too. Even that first PSG game we got absolutely battered and only snuck through via goalkeeper errors and a late penalty. It's not like we were unlucky in our losses, we were definitely lucky in our PSG and Leipzig wins.
How exactly?I think the point is, it fell in some time ago
No, but he pretty much got every substitute and tactic wrong during the game being honest.How is it all on Ole? Did he make AWB sent off? Did he make Lingard pull off a howler?
We have had some shocking years in the champions league. Went out in the group stages under Fergie the year we signed Djemba Djemba and co if i remember rightly. And the year we got schooled by bilbao in the europa which everyone assumed we would win when we dropped out. Its one bad result. We were value for a point until jeses howler. Cant blame a manager for a red card or a howler backpass. Many already claiming we are as good as out of the champions league after one group stage game. Dont know at what point whinging about the future became more important than watching the games unfold. Plus, to play devils advocate, SAF, widely touted as greatest all time manager, was manager for 27 years and won just 2 CL titles. I would say that either thats a shit record, or its a difficult competition to win. Think the latter.Ole's is not a good record in the CL admittedly, but didn't SAF have some mixed results in his early years with United in Europe, until he found a way to win? Even Pep with all his experience and resources at City still hasn't won the CL with them (perhaps its the missing 17,000 fans that is unnerving him?) and he's been at it longer than Ole.
The loss against YB's was embarrassing in the way we responded, rather than the damage such as loss does to our overall group chances. I suspect apart from those fans who absolutely hate/love Ole (...whatever he does) the rest of us just want to see Ole and the rest of the management and squad learn from these mistakes, which at the moment they are kind of not really convincing!
Weren't 2 of those losses when we had 4 games in 8 days?It's really not though. Last season we were WDDDDDLL against top 5 in the PL, L to City in the League Cup and L to Leicester in the FA cup (we W against Liverpool the round before for balance).
Therefore in total encounters with top 5 clubs we were: WWDDDDDLLLL
(Please feel free to check, I manually did this from United website so might have missed something)
Yeah fair point. Ole has done a great job. 3 cheers for OleWho are the elite now though?
Real, Barca, Juventus are all a shadow of the teams they were. I honestly think only City and PSG have stronger overall squads than us, maybe Chelsea at a push, and then Bayern possibly have a stronger (if ageing) first XI. We are easily in the top five squads in Europe now. Calling us a level below the elite now is a tired old excuse, it's not true. We should be getting QF's at a minimum this year, if not SF's. Anything less is total failure.
It's such a tired old excuse that doesn't hold weight anymore. It's always about our team not being good enough or there being some weakness in our squad holding us back. We've spent enormous amounts of money and have some of the best players in the world in their positions now, with a defense and attack as good as just about anyone.
Those were the only problems. Before the sending off we were cruising.Those were far from the only problems in that game.
It’s a very aribitrary and misleading statistic , unless you think that meeting Basaksehir in CL is completely different to meeting Real Sociedad in the Europa League (which I’m sure you don’t), or unless you work in The Guardian and have an agenda of twisting tales against the Man Utd manager (let’s say if your name is Liew, Wilson or Ronay.Don't think this has got enough attention. Ole's record at the top level is awful. 7 in 11 is not even amateur stuff. His record domestically is very good in comparison. Why is there such a disparity between the results in Europe and domestic league/cup football?
Yeah but Paul Merson on Sky Sports said that if Man City went down to ten men they would have had 95% possession and scored 4 more so obviously Ole is shitDoes were the only problems. Before the sending off we were cruising.
I don’t really know where pundits or fans get the idea we have always been this mega force in the Champions League and we are in crisis over the form in the competition. We’ve been largely shit in it. There were years under Fergie with some mint teams where we pissed the league but couldn't get a sniff in the champions league. Always had problems in this competitionIt’s a very aribitrary and misleading statistic , unless you think that meeting Basaksehir in CL is completely different to meeting Real Sociedad in the Europa League (which I’m sure you don’t), or unless you work in The Guardian and have an agenda of twisting tales against the Man Utd manager (let’s say if your name is Liew, Wilson or Ronay.
Do you wonder how United has fared in Europe? 17 wins in 32 matches.
Do you wonder how we have done against the top dogs? 2 wins and 4 losses. 3 of them in Ole’s first half season, when the team was depleted and injury ridden.
Do you wonder how we have done against CL group level opponents in Europe? 11 wins, 9 losses out of 25 games against the teams that have played CL group stages in later years.
I think I have a clou why Jonathan Liew would cherry pick results to make United look extra bad. I don’t think we need to stoop to that level at a United forum.
'I barge in now and then to point at naked emperors.Since when do you post about football?!
Think you are right!We have had some shocking years in the champions league. Went out in the group stages under Fergie the year we signed Djemba Djemba and co if i remember rightly. And the year we got schooled by bilbao in the europa which everyone assumed we would win when we dropped out. Its one bad result. We were value for a point until jeses howler. Cant blame a manager for a red card or a howler backpass. Many already claiming we are as good as out of the champions league after one group stage game. Dont know at what point whinging about the future became more important than watching the games unfold. Plus, to play devils advocate, SAF, widely touted as greatest all time manager, was manager for 27 years and won just 2 CL titles. I would say that either thats a shit record, or its a difficult competition to win. Think the latter.
when we lost in Istanbul, when we lost to sheffield united, when we failed to beat fulham at home...How exactly?
Toward the end of the season we had Leicester/Pool near the EL final if that's what you mean? That was the knock on of the postponement from the protests which I guess affected us and Pool (they won against us and WBA with Alisson's last minute winner for reference). Looking at our matchday squads what is quite weird is we only look like we rested players on the very last game of the season, despite the title race being over and top four long secure, so had a full team out the week before the EL final against relegated Fulham.Weren't 2 of those losses when we had 4 games in 8 days?
2 losses and a draw are the end of a football club? Don’t know what to say to such a hysterical opinionwhen we lost in Istanbul, when we lost to sheffield united, when we failed to beat fulham at home...
Patience my friend. The trophies are coming. The squad has been brought up to a serious level now and we're relevant again for the first time since Fergie. Rejoice in thatStop picking on Ole! Don’t you know “trophies are for other managers”?
Yeah probably, but that's not really the point. The sending off changed the match from one sort of challenge to another one, so it's neither here nor there how well we did at first. While going down to 10 men is pretty rare, it tested an ability that is needed at other times, even when you have 11 men. The ability to manage a game with controlled, authoritative possession is something you frequently need in football. Whether it's building from the back, passing through a press, or pushing back the opposition into their own box, it all stems from the same place and is something we're weak at. It's harder with 10 men of course, but it's something we're poor at, even with 11. I feel confident in saying that, if CIty had gone down to 10 men in that game, they'd have done much better at keeping the ball away from Young Boys.True but before the sending off we were winning and fairly comfortable.
We definitely would have beat them by a couple if that didn't happen.
