7 losses in 11 Champions League games...

Keefy18

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Don't think that's his point. His point is that Ole's catastrophic CL record for us shouldn't be excused by pointing at our games against PSG or Barca. A Barca team that was convincingly beat by Pool. It's a more than fair point.

Not really a fair point though when some perspective is applied.

Liverpool had just marginally lost out to City to the PL title, setting record points total. We were a team and club very much in transition. Liverpool very much on the ascendancy.

Most supporters of the game had Liverpool to beat them.
 

Godfather

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Not really a fair point though when some perspective is applied.

Liverpool had just marginally lost out to City to the PL title, setting record points total. We were a team and club very much in transition. Liverpool very much on the ascendancy.

Most supporters of the game had Liverpool to beat them.
Still no excuse to having a whopping 3 shots on target over both legs and roughly 35% possession against a Barca team that was way past his best. So no, games against Barca and PSG cannot excuse his CL record. Especially not looking at how we lost those.

I'm just tired of the excuses. It's like every criticism aimed at him is taken personally and shrugged off with some weird whataboutism. Some do go overboard yes, but performances like yesterday shouldn't happen with the squad we have at hand.
 
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Keefy18

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Just out of interest what was Sir Alex's record in his first eleven games?

It's not a rhetorical question as I don't know the answer, but I do remember even after you won it in '99 there being some pretty embarrassing results and didn't you even finish bottom of the group stage one year?

Maybe it's not my place but while last night's result and performance were obviously bad I'd suggest waiting until at least the group stage is over before pronouncing judgement.

There's a long way to go yet.
He won the cup winners cup in his first season.


1​
H​
W​
2​
0​
Clayton Blackmore 9', Neil Webb 17'​
2​
A​
W​
1​
0​
Brian McClair 77'​
3​
H​
W​
3​
0​
Brian McClair 40', Steve Bruce 42' (pen), Gary Pallister 59'​
4​
A​
W​
2​
0​
Mark Robins 31', Steve Bruce 35'​
5​
H​
D​
1​
1​
Brian McClair 1'​
Lee. A. Martin 6' (o.g.)​
6​
A​
W​
2​
0​
Clayton Blackmore 45', Steve Bruce 47' (pen)​
7​
A​
W​
3​
1​
Brian McClair 36', Mark Hughes 54', Steve Bruce 67'​
Jacek Cyzio 35'​
8​
H​
D​
1​
1​
Lee Sharpe 28'​
Wojciech Kowalczyk 57'​
9​
N​
W​
2​
1​
Mark Hughes 68', 75'​
Ronald Koeman 79'​

The defence of it was poor however.

1​
A​
D​
0​
0​
2​
H​
W​
2​
0​
Mark Hughes 109', Brian McClair 111'​
3​
A​
L​
0​
3​
Paulo Futre 32', 86', Manolo 88'​
4​
H​
D​
1​
1​
Mark Hughes 4'​
Bernd Schuster 68'​

The next year - 92/93 - we crashed out instantly to the mighty Torepdo Moscow on penalties.

For the Champions league:

93/94
1​
A​
W​
3​
2​
Roy Keane 9', 42', Eric Cantona 44'​
Jozsef Szabados 39', Istvan Stefanov 68'​
2​
H​
W​
2​
1​
Steve Bruce 55', 64'​
Istvan Salloi 77'​
3​
H​
D​
3​
3​
Bryan Robson 3', Hakan Sukur (o.g.) 13', Eric Cantona 81'​
Arif Erdem 16', Kubilay Turkyilmaz 31', 63'​
4​
A​
D​
0​
0​

94/95
1​
H​
W​
4​
2​
Ryan Giggs 33', 66', Andrei Kanchelskis 48', Lee Sharpe 71'​
Stefan Pettersson 26', Stefan Rehn 49'​
2​
A​
D​
0​
0​
3​
H​
D​
2​
2​
Mark Hughes 20', Lee Sharpe 80'​
Romario 34', Jose Mari Bakero 50'​
4​
A​
L​
0​
4​
Hristo Stoichkov 9', 53', Romario 45', Albert Ferrer 88'​
5​
A​
L​
1​
3​
Mark Hughes 64'​
*Jesper Blomqvist 11', Magnus Erlingmark 65', Pontus Kamark 72' (pen)​
6​
H​
W​
4​
0​
Simon Davies 3', David Beckham 38', Roy Keane 49', Bulent Korkmaz 88' (o.g.)​


And yes I'm fully aware of the "foreigner rule" which fecked us over massively.
 

Keefy18

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Still no excuse to having a whopping 3 shots on target over both legs and roughly 35% possession against a Barca team that was way past his best. So no, games against Barca and PSG cannot excuse his CL record. Especially not looking at how we lost those.
We could of done better sure, still I don't think anyone had us to beat them however.

As has been pointed out the stat needs padding / context added to it.
 

R.N7

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Istanbul 2 - 1 Man Utd
That Ba goal...Massively underrating the opposition by playing poor fringe players like Tuanzebe in a 4 man defence.

Man Utd 1 - 3 PSG
Fred was a walking red card and he ignored it.

Leipzig 3 - 2 Man Utd
Drastic change in formation that Leipzig took full advantage.

Young Boys 2 - 1 Man Utd
Walking into the second half and only playing for a draw against Young Boys. Embarrassing for a club of this stature, would Real Madrid or Bayern Munchen do that?
 

Pintu

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Not sure where you’ve got those details from.

They lost 3 out of 8 games last season and drew against Ajax and midgetland.

Year before that they played 9 games and lost 4.
4 losses out of the 15 games. Olé with 10 times the Atalanta budget has 7 losses out of 11.

Here is the last 15 Champions League games played by Atalanta. 4 losses (having played 10 vs Real Madrid for 80 mn). The main info was they've faced City, PSG, Liverpool, Ajax and Madrid. So it is not about the draws. Draws can't be an excuse for such a poor record when you coach Manchester Utd.










'

 

united_99

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8 defeat for him against Villarreal and it will be his last defeat here :)
No it won’t. Pathetic posts. Give it a rest, hoping for us to lose.
I also remember last season when you predicted we won’t make top 4 and Spurs would overtake us soon (that was when Jose was still there).
 

Siorac

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God I fcukin hate this mentality.

It's beyond idiotic.

We're Unirah and we should always dominate and win games by 7 goals... what age are you for god sake?
There's quite a massive middle ground between yesterday's game and 'winning by 7 goals'.
 

Rooney in Paris

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That Ba goal...Massively underrating the opposition by playing poor fringe players like Tuanzebe in a 4 man defence.



Fred was a walking red card and he ignored it.



Drastic change in formation that Leipzig took full advantage.


Walking into the second half and only playing for a draw against Young Boys. Embarrassing for a club of this stature, would Real Madrid or Bayern Munchen do that?
Since when do you post about football?!
 

united_99

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Just out of interest what was Sir Alex's record in his first eleven games?

It's not a rhetorical question as I don't know the answer, but I do remember even after you won it in '99 there being some pretty embarrassing results and didn't you even finish bottom of the group stage one year?

Maybe it's not my place but while last night's result and performance were obviously bad I'd suggest waiting until at least the group stage is over before pronouncing judgement.

There's a long way to go yet.
Our record in Europe between 99 win against Bayern and 2008 win against Barca was horrible (Pep at Bayern and City like horrible) - we didn’t beat any big / traditional European team for 7 years in the knock out stages. And we were last in 2005/06 in an easy CL group.
However we still kept winning the league and other domestic trophies so the European performances were easier to stomach.
 

jem

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It’s abysmal and I don’t think any other top club would stand for it, however many second and third-place finishes and Europa Lesgue semis the manager might have to his credit.
 

GBBQ

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There is absolutely no pressure. If he wins his home games and gets 1 away win he'll be fine and this match will be forgotten and meaningless. he's top of the league and has some top class players to bed in over the coming weeks.

So no its not an ideal result but lets get a grip.
 

jem

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2 losses vs Barca
1 vs PSG
2 playing with 10 men

So it is a bit misleading.

Losses that remain most frustrating are Istanbul and Leipzig, especially first one. If we don't improve our CL record Ole will be sacked and rightfully so.
Fair point, but even those 10-men losses don’t reflect well: Fred should never have been on the pitch when he got the red, and ten men or not, a team of United’s caliber should still be beating a team from the Swiss league.
 

Matthew84!

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Honestly some people are just so pathetic and childish, no one expected us to do well in the last few years and now you're suddenly upset with the stats that prove it,
Remind me again how many times we've won the Champions league since fergie retired?
Exactly the stats are always going to be bad.
Let's wait to the end of the season before getting on your childish high horse and trying to stir up trouble when in reality there really isn't anything to worry about.
 

jem

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God I fcukin hate this mentality.

It's beyond idiotic.

We're Unirah and we should always dominate and win games by 7 goals... what age are you for god sake?
No what’s annoying is a defeatist mentality bolstered by accusations of exaggerated statements that nobody is actually saying (the win by 7 goals nonsense.)
 
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We've had some tough ties amongst those defeats, but it's poor record, no matter which way you look at it. Last night was the worst, even with ten men, though the defeat is on Lingard, for his crazy back pass in the last minute of injury time. Nothing Ole can do about idiotic things like that.
 

jem

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Honestly some people are just so pathetic and childish, no one expected us to do well in the last few years and now you're suddenly upset with the stats that prove it,
Remind me again how many times we've won the Champions league since fergie retired?
Exactly the stats are always going to be bad.
Let's wait to the end of the season before getting on your childish high horse and trying to stir up trouble when in reality there really isn't anything to worry about.
So because we’ve been shite in Europe since Fergie left, we really shouldn’t worry about the continuation of said shiteness? Makes perfect sense!
 

jem

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We've had some tough ties amongst those defeats, but it's poor record, no matter which way you look at it. Last night was the worst, even with ten men, though the defeat is on Lingard, for his crazy back pass in the last minute of injury time. Nothing Ole can do about idiotic things like that.
Yes there is: don’t bring on Lingard.
 

Dan_F

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4 losses out of the 15 games. Olé with 10 times the Atalanta budget has 7 losses out of 11.

Here is the last 15 Champions League games played by Atalanta. 4 losses (having played 10 vs Real Madrid for 80 mn). The main info was they've faced City, PSG, Liverpool, Ajax and Madrid. So it is not about the draws. Draws can't be an excuse for such a poor record when you coach Manchester Utd.










'

So firstly, we’ve established it wasn’t 3 loses. Secondly, you’ve missed out the first three group games of 2019 of which they lost all 3.

That’s a hell of a way to cherry pick the stats.
 

gerdm07

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We've played PSG 4 times, 2 wins 2 losses - a fair record.

We've played RB Leipzig 2 times, 1 win 1 loss - not great, but it happens.

We've played Barca 2 times, both losses - this was when we had a shit squad, and Messi was still at Barca.

We've played Istabul 2 times, 1 win 1 loss - that loss was catastrophic.

We've played Young Boys once, and lost - an unfortunate loss due to a red card, and a brainless moment from Lingard.

It's not great, but hyperbole always makes things seem worse.
Well put.
 

Real Name

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3 of those defeats are the one against PSG at home when Ole took over the job and 2 against Barcelona after we progressed from the PSG tie so some perspective is needed, not just bland data like that.
I see @The Corinthian wrote it more nicely already.
 

RkkMan

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3 of those defeats are the one against PSG at home when Ole took over the job and 2 against Barcelona after we progressed from the PSG tie so some perspective is needed, not just bland data like that.
I see @The Corinthian wrote it more nicely already.
One of the defeats to PSG was avoidable though, the one from last season when it was clear to the average football fan Fred was a walking red card yet Ole chose to keep him on till he got sent off. That makes it 3 unavoidable losses to 4 avoidable losses in the CL
 

hobbers

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I’m fairly certain that with the set of players we have, it is likely that we get out of the group. Surely getting out of the group should not be the target? The bar at its lowest should be Quarterfinals.
No it shouldnt be the target. But getting knocked out in the RO16 i could just about tolerate provided it's against a good team, we dont embarrass ourselves, and we go on to have a great league campaign.

But not qualifying from this group would be totally unforgivable. Orders of magnitude worse than any of Ole's previous howlers in Europe and in cup semi finals. There'd be no redemption possible in my eyes if that happens.
 

Pogue Mahone

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The Istanbul result and performance was a lot worse than tonight
You think? We actually created a bunch of chances in that game. Check this shit out…
We've played PSG 4 times, 2 wins 2 losses - a fair record.

We've played RB Leipzig 2 times, 1 win 1 loss - not great, but it happens.

We've played Barca 2 times, both losses - this was when we had a shit squad, and Messi was still at Barca.

We've played Istabul 2 times, 1 win 1 loss - that loss was catastrophic.

We've played Young Boys once, and lost
- an unfortunate loss due to a red card, and a brainless moment from Lingard.

It's not great, but hyperbole always makes things seem worse.
The more data we have to combine together the more accurate the assessment. So it doesn’t make sense to break it down like that. None of those results in bold would be a worry individually but added together…
 

The Corinthian

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The more data we have to combine together the more accurate the assessment. So it doesn’t make sense to break it down like that. None of those results in bold would be a worry individually but added together…
I get that - but I think context matters. Every loss or adverse result on this board is met with meltdowns. It gets a bit tiring.

Also, let's see where we are at the end of the group stage. Yesterday's result hinged on two moments - a red card, and a brainfart from Jesse. It would have been a whole different result if AWB received a yellow instead of a red. (I also think we should have had a penalty when Ronaldo was pushed over in the box).
 

hobbers

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It's not the losses it's the manner of the losses.

The complacency from Ole and the entire squad vs Istanbul
PSG game and Fred's red.
The starting system in the must-win game vs Leipzig.
Setting us up at half time to have 6 men camped in our own penalty box for 45 minutes vs Young Boys, and then subbing on Lingard and Martial despite a system that was just looking to hold out for a draw.
Obviously include the inability to make a meaningful change in the EL final.


It's a really grim pattern of incompetence.
 

Chief123

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8 defeat for him against Villarreal and it will be his last defeat here :)
No it won't. Get a grip.

Yes he could have made better decisions with the subs but to blame the defeat all on Ole is stupid. After we went down to 10 men, any manager with any bit of credibility would have taken a draw at that stage of the game considering we were only 30 mins into the game. We ended up finishing the last 15-20 mins of the game rather comfortably and controlled once Matic came on. So from Ole's point of view it was under control until a bad decision made by Lingard. Two bad decisions by AWB and Lingard cost us the game. Nothing else.
 
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Pogue Mahone

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It's not the losses it's the manner of the losses.

The complacency from Ole and the entire squad vs Istanbul
PSG game and Fred's red.
The starting system in the must-win game vs Leipzig.
Setting us up at half time to have 6 men camped in our own penalty box for 45 minutes vs Young Boys, and then subbing on Lingard and Martial despite a system that was just looking to hold out for a draw.
Obviously include the inability to make a meaningful change in the EL final.


It's a really grim pattern of incompetence.
Failing to sub De Gea off for Henderson in EL final.
 

BlahRules

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I never seen Ole able to get the team to have control of the game for the whole 90 minutes.

We only see the team carving the oppisition when we are ahead and the other team is going for it and they leave more space to be attacked.

We are crying out of players to be able to dictate and the very least is able to have a pass completion of 90%. The subbing of Donny is ridiculous when Bruno and Fred are not players that has high success pass rate. Even Pogba is not press resistant and is able to keep it simple.

I don't understand why Lingard was put on to play as a lone striker and then shifted as a midfielder. I kept hearing he will give energy but that could have easily been given by Donny with more control to the midfield.

Ole should have taken off Pogba or Bruno for Matic. Which would have allowed us to play more compact and play on the break but instead Ole decided to be defensive and concede the possession, ole was hoping to hold out for the win and then for a draw.
 

AshRK

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Don't think that's his point. His point is that Ole's catastrophic CL record for us shouldn't be excused by pointing at our games against PSG or Barca. A Barca team that was convincingly beat by Pool. It's a more than fair point.
That Barca side also convincingly beat Liverpool in the first leg and should have scored more had Dembele not had a mare. Barca just capitulated in the second leg. That Barca side were strong and better than the United side.
 

TMDaines

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A bit surprised by some of the replies trying to downplay this. Its an awful record for a club of our supposed size. I mean even if all 11 games were against 2010 Barca it would still be a bit underwhelming.

I'm starting to think rival fans are right, we wont win anything with Ole, and this is easily the best Utd squad since SAF's time and i dont want that fact to be wasted the next few years.
It’s such a small sample though. It’s a given that a 38 game league season has a lot of variance, so 11 games is much more volatile.