A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

[B20]

Had they not lost every klopp final? Even when favourites?

Spurs had a massive chance to put the pressure on them and win that final

They had lost one final as small favorites and one they were clearly not, which was lost to freak goalkeeping.

Spurs were going up against a team that had won 97 points and were in their second CL final in two years. The idea that they'd be rattled by their record against a spurs team in their first ever final has nothing in it.

 

[Tom Cato]

And a lazy argument. The two clubs had vastly different resources. Poch has a track record for improving young players - something we are desparately in need of right now.

I have a quick argument:

Van Gaal and Mourinho BOTH have a long history of improving existing resources in their club, so this argument is flat. Also, Tottenham is not a broke club, they have a net spend of £67m in 2019 and ALSO tried to do the Dybala deal at £60-70m~. Yes they are not us or Manchester City, but they do have funds to buy talent and players.

But my grief with the Pochettino love is this:

Both LvG and Jose Mourinho have vastly better track records as managers for their respective clubs. Jose Mourinho has won trophies everywhere he went. LvG developed Thomas Müller at Bayern when they had a struggling season opener just to name one example. Jose Mourinho is the one that brought in Mikel Obi, Mario Balotelli, Jesé, Alvaro Morata, Nacho, Fabinho, Diego Llorente, Varane, Traoré, Ruben Loftus-Cheek to name just a handful. To say that any of these managers don't improve young players is just factually incorrect and does a disservice to the discussion if it's not brought up when its pointed out in favor of Pochettino.

I mean, our current manager does have a track record of improving young players as well. Literally. OGS worked with Ben Foster, Rafael, Mame Biram Diouf, Gabriel Obertan and Paul Pogba at the Reserves during his first coaching spell at the club. Most noteably recently he's had his part in helping develop Erling Braut Haaland in Molde.

And super recent history: Mason Greenwood, Brandon Williams, Angel Gomes (injured), Tuanzebe and Daniel James who's all had fantastic impacts the many or few times they've played. Remember Daniel James was a signing no one or very few thought would have an impact, and he's been one of our more noticeable players all season. Brandon Williams has been man of the match BOTH times he's played. Saying that OGS is not developing the youngsters is just such an unfathomable lie I don't even know where to begin. We routinely play the youngest team in any given EPL round, but we don't have focus on youngsters?

We let in fewer goals than last season. In fact we have one of the best defenses in the league this season.

Pochettino more than almost any manager, struggles hard against top6 opposition. This table from the BBC underlines this: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/624/cpsprodpb/136A5/production/_109752597_big_six.png - His great track record comes from stability against "lesser" opposition. And to be completely fair, he DOES deserve credit and accolades for that. He is not by any metric a bad manager. But he has completely lost the team. Something is rotten at Tottenham, and he is the leader. Or was. Tottenham has lost 18 games in 2019. That is more than anyone else. Tottenham is literally the team that loses the most in Britain in this year.

So what's the takeaway here? Do you blame the players because they aren't motivated? Or do you do what the caf does to our own team and blame the manager for every single thing that goes wrong? Like, I don't understand the double standard here.

Pochettino inherited a squad that included Hugo Lloris, Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, Jan Vertonghen, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele and Harry Kane. Harry Kane has been a MONSTER over the last few seasons. Pochettinos team would be nowhere near the top6 if Harry had not been there. Harry Kane scored 169 league goals under Pochettino. Second on that list? Son - with 75. Kane is so far and above anyone that if you remove him from the equation, Tottenham is Bornemouth.

So why not Poch? Well. He's not won anything. Ever. Yes he has taken his team to the Champions Leauge. But we just employed managers who have done that routinely. Managers who won trophies and developed young players into superstars in their respective club. Tottenham has a much better squad on paper than MUFC does right now, I'll happily admit that. Especially with their recent transfer window. But fact remains that the 3 players we bought ourselves have all been fantastic. It'd be silly not to consider letting the current mangager work another window, and another.

After Martial returned, our form has quite frankly vastly improved. We're scoring goals again. And enough with this bullsh*t about beating the great "bla bla club". Norwich battered Manchester City, Brighton beat Tottenham 3-0, Chelsea lost to Liverpool, Liverpool were lucky to walk away with a point at Old Trafford (we beat Chelsea 4-0). Fact of the matter remains that we've had a comfortable time with the top6 sides under the current manager. Right now I'm quite happy to continue on the current path for a few select reasons.

1) I absolutely HATE discontinuity - It's the worst thing in the world. Discontinuity breeds insecurity and unrest. For a club like Manchester United, who enjoyed 26 managers for it's 127 year long history. Sir Alex led the club 27 years. Imagine that, we have fans that at the point of his retirement had grown into adults and never known any other manager at the club. That is why there is a statue of the man outside Old Trafford. The sheer example of the kind of tenacity Alex Ferguson put into the club is what we should strive for. It's part of this clubs entire goddamn identity. We do not change managers like other Chelsea fire their's every other Sunday.

We are in the middle of a identity rebuild. The board, the staff, everyone acknowledges that what we have done the past 7 years has not worked. So we are trying something else, to rebuild a new Class of 92. Of course it won't ever be like that, but the principle is there. We make superstars. The process takes time, sorry to say but that's the reality of the situation. Like Ed Woodward said: "We will not be distracted by short term setbacks". What matters is the progress. I am MORE than happy to write off this season if it means the kids are ready to compete next season. More than happy to.

2) Hiring a manager who was JUST fired from a rival team who we have a better record than.. what type of ambition is that? Or better yet, what kind of signal does that send to the world? Tottenham has a win percentage of 37% in all competitions in 2019. I'm sorry, but no top6 team in England is going to hire him until he proves himself again. MUFC have invested heavily into OGS and will continue to do so as long as there is improvement. And improvement there is.

3) OGS has for all his hatred from fans who don't have patience, the 4th best win% of any MUFC manager, behind Sir Alex, Mourinho, and the great Ernest Mangnall, edging out Van Gaal. And obviously a much better record than Poch in 2019. A full year almost.

4) Player management. OGS's player management is from all that we currently know EXCELLENT. Even Lukaku who left the club on bad terms recently in an interview said that "Solskjær had his eternal respect for allowing him to go". Reports from the training ground about players being unhappy about the training stems from a comment from one of the Spaniards who didn't like all the running to prepare them for the season. This was said during preseason, nothing after. Rumblings from Tottenham mention that both Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld are unhappy with the mangers treatment. Christian Eriksen is relegated to the bench after refusing to sign a new contract. Who knows what actually goes on behind the scenes,but I'm fairly sure that a 27 year old Eriksen is not happy about being benched, contributing to his impressive loss of form. On top of that several media outlets have mentioned player discontent with the managers negativity in the media. (If anyone wonders why OGS is so positive all the time, this is why, as if the obvious needed saying).

5) We are seeing player improvement across the board. Marcus Rashford was relied upon to be our guy this season. His career best scoring is 13 on the season in ALL competitions before this season. He currently sits at 9, less than 1/3 into the season. Mason Greenwood just turned 18 and is due his first EPL goal. He's scored in Europe and shown that he's good enough to play first team games with the club. Brandon Williams is our new Leftback, i've seen enough to be convinced he can be that guy. Angel Gomes is a crazy exciting player, James Garner keeps getting involvements, AWB is a developing player, same with Daniel James who's had an immediate impact in the Premier League. Even Fred has shown glimpses of greatness recently, can he sustain it? Tuanzebe looks to edge out Lindelöf soon. We got so many crazy exciting EPL ready and progressing players.

Fact of the matter is that we are in a process that is in its infancy. The board has no reason to interrupt it, the players have not shown any indication that they want to interrupt it, and quite frankly why do we want to bring in a manager who has never won anything, who was just fired from his club for completely losing the team, in the first place? We might as well hire Jose Mourinho again then, he's a better manager than Pochettino is in every aspect of the game.

 

[The Cat]

I have a quick argument:

Van Gaal and Mourinho BOTH have a long history of improving existing resources in their club, so this argument is flat. Also, Tottenham is not a broke club, they have a net spend of £67m in 2019 and ALSO tried to do the Dybala deal at £60-70m~. Yes they are not us or Manchester City, but they do have funds to buy talent and players.

But my grief with the Pochettino love is this:

Both LvG and Jose Mourinho have vastly better track records as managers for their respective clubs. Jose Mourinho has won trophies everywhere he went. LvG developed Thomas Müller at Bayern when they had a struggling season opener just to name one example. Jose Mourinho is the one that brought in Mikel Obi, Mario Balotelli, Jesé, Alvaro Morata, Nacho, Fabinho, Diego Llorente, Varane, Traoré, Ruben Loftus-Cheek to name just a handful. To say that any of these managers don't improve young players is just factually incorrect and does a disservice to the discussion if it's not brought up when its pointed out in favor of Pochettino.

I mean, our current manager does have a track record of improving young players as well. Literally. OGS worked with Ben Foster, Rafael, Mame Biram Diouf, Gabriel Obertan and Paul Pogba at the Reserves during his first coaching spell at the club. Most noteably recently he's had his part in helping develop Erling Braut Haaland in Molde.

And super recent history: Mason Greenwood, Brandon Williams, Angel Gomes (injured), Tuanzebe and Daniel James who's all had fantastic impacts the many or few times they've played. Remember Daniel James was a signing no one or very few thought would have an impact, and he's been one of our more noticeable players all season. Brandon Williams has been man of the match BOTH times he's played. Saying that OGS is not developing the youngsters is just such an unfathomable lie I don't even know where to begin. We routinely play the youngest team in any given EPL round, but we don't have focus on youngsters?

We let in fewer goals than last season. In fact we have one of the best defenses in the league this season.

Pochettino more than almost any manager, struggles hard against top6 opposition. This table from the BBC underlines this: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/624/cpsprodpb/136A5/production/_109752597_big_six.png - His great track record comes from stability against "lesser" opposition. And to be completely fair, he DOES deserve credit and accolades for that. He is not by any metric a bad manager. But he has completely lost the team. Something is rotten at Tottenham, and he is the leader. Or was. Tottenham has lost 18 games in 2019. That is more than anyone else. Tottenham is literally the team that loses the most in Britain in this year.

So what's the takeaway here? Do you blame the players because they aren't motivated? Or do you do what the caf does to our own team and blame the manager for every single thing that goes wrong? Like, I don't understand the double standard here.

Pochettino inherited a squad that included Hugo Lloris, Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, Jan Vertonghen, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele and Harry Kane. Harry Kane has been a MONSTER over the last few seasons. Pochettinos team would be nowhere near the top6 if Harry had not been there. Harry Kane scored 169 league goals under Pochettino. Second on that list? Son - with 75. Kane is so far and above anyone that if you remove him from the equation, Tottenham is Bornemouth.

So why not Poch? Well. He's not won anything. Ever. Yes he has taken his team to the Champions Leauge. But we just employed managers who have done that routinely. Managers who won trophies and developed young players into superstars in their respective club. Tottenham has a much better squad on paper than MUFC does right now, I'll happily admit that. Especially with their recent transfer window. But fact remains that the 3 players we bought ourselves have all been fantastic. It'd be silly not to consider letting the current mangager work another window, and another.

After Martial returned, our form has quite frankly vastly improved. We're scoring goals again. And enough with this bullsh*t about beating the great "bla bla club". Norwich battered Manchester City, Brighton beat Tottenham 3-0, Chelsea lost to Liverpool, Liverpool were lucky to walk away with a point at Old Trafford (we beat Chelsea 4-0). Fact of the matter remains that we've had a comfortable time with the top6 sides under the current manager. Right now I'm quite happy to continue on the current path for a few select reasons.

1) I absolutely HATE discontinuity - It's the worst thing in the world. Discontinuity breeds insecurity and unrest. For a club like Manchester United, who enjoyed 26 managers for it's 127 year long history. Sir Alex led the club 27 years. Imagine that, we have fans that at the point of his retirement had grown into adults and never known any other manager at the club. That is why there is a statue of the man outside Old Trafford. The sheer example of the kind of tenacity Alex Ferguson put into the club is what we should strive for. It's part of this clubs entire goddamn identity. We do not change managers like other Chelsea fire their's every other Sunday.

We are in the middle of a identity rebuild. The board, the staff, everyone acknowledges that what we have done the past 7 years has not worked. So we are trying something else, to rebuild a new Class of 92. Of course it won't ever be like that, but the principle is there. We make superstars. The process takes time, sorry to say but that's the reality of the situation. Like Ed Woodward said: "We will not be distracted by short term setbacks". What matters is the progress. I am MORE than happy to write off this season if it means the kids are ready to compete next season. More than happy to.

2) Hiring a manager who was JUST fired from a rival team who we have a better record than.. what type of ambition is that? Or better yet, what kind of signal does that send to the world? Tottenham has a win percentage of 37% in all competitions in 2019. I'm sorry, but no top6 team in England is going to hire him until he proves himself again. MUFC have invested heavily into OGS and will continue to do so as long as there is improvement. And improvement there is.

3) OGS has for all his hatred from fans who don't have patience, the 4th best win% of any MUFC manager, behind Sir Alex, Mourinho, and the great Ernest Mangnall, edging out Van Gaal. And obviously a much better record than Poch in 2019. A full year almost.

4) Player management. OGS's player management is from all that we currently know EXCELLENT. Even Lukaku who left the club on bad terms recently in an interview said that "Solskjær had his eternal respect for allowing him to go". Reports from the training ground about players being unhappy about the training stems from a comment from one of the Spaniards who didn't like all the running to prepare them for the season. This was said during preseason, nothing after. Rumblings from Tottenham mention that both Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld are unhappy with the mangers treatment. Christian Eriksen is relegated to the bench after refusing to sign a new contract. Who knows what actually goes on behind the scenes,but I'm fairly sure that a 27 year old Eriksen is not happy about being benched, contributing to his impressive loss of form. On top of that several media outlets have mentioned player discontent with the managers negativity in the media. (If anyone wonders why OGS is so positive all the time, this is why, as if the obvious needed saying).

5) We are seeing player improvement across the board. Marcus Rashford was relied upon to be our guy this season. His career best scoring is 13 on the season in ALL competitions before this season. He currently sits at 9, less than 1/3 into the season. Mason Greenwood just turned 18 and is due his first EPL goal. He's scored in Europe and shown that he's good enough to play first team games with the club. Brandon Williams is our new Leftback, i've seen enough to be convinced he can be that guy. Angel Gomes is a crazy exciting player, James Garner keeps getting involvements, AWB is a developing player, same with Daniel James who's had an immediate impact in the Premier League. Even Fred has shown glimpses of greatness recently, can he sustain it? Tuanzebe looks to edge out Lindelöf soon. We got so many crazy exciting EPL ready and progressing players.

Fact of the matter is that we are in a process that is in its infancy. The board has no reason to interrupt it, the players have not shown any indication that they want to interrupt it, and quite frankly why do we want to bring in a manager who has never won anything, who was just fired from his club for completely losing the team, in the first place? We might as well hire Jose Mourinho again then, he's a better manager than Pochettino is in every aspect of the game.

Well I can't call you lazy

 

[thegregster]

Liverpool and klopp were serial final losers at that point. That final was there to be won for spurs.

This.

He was crying on the pitch when they beat Ajax. A team of kids. He totally lost all focus.

 

[DAK222]

They had lost one final as small favorites and one they were clearly not, which was lost to freak goalkeeping.

They weren't any kind of favourites against Sevilla either. Sevilla were on track to win the EL thrice in a row...thrice! Most people understood this and said the CL final against Spurs was the first time Liverpool were favourites under Klopp and they'd have to deal with all the pressure, expectations etc.

Spurs were going up against a team that had won 97 points and were in their second CL final in two years. The idea that they'd be rattled by their record against a spurs team in their first ever final has nothing in it.

This! Can't really be expecting Spurs with their resources to turn up thinking they're favourites against this sort of a team. Let's see what Poch does when he can add a couple of 60-70m superstars to his team. Of course, one way of doing so would have been to sell Kane for some Coutinho+ money and buy a couple of players.

 

[R'hllor]

Next time show more respect when you mention his name.

Where he showed disrespect?

 

[dev1l]

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[Ban]

He'll obviously win trophies at a big club eventually, its weird that people think he's incapable of it.

Thats not obvious.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

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Yeah hearing a lot of this now, especially with Toby and Eriksen then other players feeling Poch was treating them unfairly, apparently a possibility of one (Toby) or both of them staying. Just rumours of course.

 

[roonster09]

Thats not obvious.

It is obvious. People said same thing about Sarri, he won Europa league with Chelsea, his first club where they were favorites to win something. He might even win Serie A this season. 2 seasons ago he was a bottler, now with Chelsea and Juve he will be a winner.

If you need better example, just check Jose's history. Called 2nd as failure everywhere, then when he didn't have the best team, 2nd became his best ever achievement. You win when you manage teams capable of winning, with exceptions.

 

[Ban]

I have a quick argument:

Van Gaal and Mourinho BOTH have a long history of improving existing resources in their club, so this argument is flat. Also, Tottenham is not a broke club, they have a net spend of £67m in 2019 and ALSO tried to do the Dybala deal at £60-70m~. Yes they are not us or Manchester City, but they do have funds to buy talent and players.

But my grief with the Pochettino love is this:

Both LvG and Jose Mourinho have vastly better track records as managers for their respective clubs. Jose Mourinho has won trophies everywhere he went. LvG developed Thomas Müller at Bayern when they had a struggling season opener just to name one example. Jose Mourinho is the one that brought in Mikel Obi, Mario Balotelli, Jesé, Alvaro Morata, Nacho, Fabinho, Diego Llorente, Varane, Traoré, Ruben Loftus-Cheek to name just a handful. To say that any of these managers don't improve young players is just factually incorrect and does a disservice to the discussion if it's not brought up when its pointed out in favor of Pochettino.

I mean, our current manager does have a track record of improving young players as well. Literally. OGS worked with Ben Foster, Rafael, Mame Biram Diouf, Gabriel Obertan and Paul Pogba at the Reserves during his first coaching spell at the club. Most noteably recently he's had his part in helping develop Erling Braut Haaland in Molde.

And super recent history: Mason Greenwood, Brandon Williams, Angel Gomes (injured), Tuanzebe and Daniel James who's all had fantastic impacts the many or few times they've played. Remember Daniel James was a signing no one or very few thought would have an impact, and he's been one of our more noticeable players all season. Brandon Williams has been man of the match BOTH times he's played. Saying that OGS is not developing the youngsters is just such an unfathomable lie I don't even know where to begin. We routinely play the youngest team in any given EPL round, but we don't have focus on youngsters?

We let in fewer goals than last season. In fact we have one of the best defenses in the league this season.

Pochettino more than almost any manager, struggles hard against top6 opposition. This table from the BBC underlines this: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/624/cpsprodpb/136A5/production/_109752597_big_six.png - His great track record comes from stability against "lesser" opposition. And to be completely fair, he DOES deserve credit and accolades for that. He is not by any metric a bad manager. But he has completely lost the team. Something is rotten at Tottenham, and he is the leader. Or was. Tottenham has lost 18 games in 2019. That is more than anyone else. Tottenham is literally the team that loses the most in Britain in this year.

So what's the takeaway here? Do you blame the players because they aren't motivated? Or do you do what the caf does to our own team and blame the manager for every single thing that goes wrong? Like, I don't understand the double standard here.

Pochettino inherited a squad that included Hugo Lloris, Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, Jan Vertonghen, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele and Harry Kane. Harry Kane has been a MONSTER over the last few seasons. Pochettinos team would be nowhere near the top6 if Harry had not been there. Harry Kane scored 169 league goals under Pochettino. Second on that list? Son - with 75. Kane is so far and above anyone that if you remove him from the equation, Tottenham is Bornemouth.

So why not Poch? Well. He's not won anything. Ever. Yes he has taken his team to the Champions Leauge. But we just employed managers who have done that routinely. Managers who won trophies and developed young players into superstars in their respective club. Tottenham has a much better squad on paper than MUFC does right now, I'll happily admit that. Especially with their recent transfer window. But fact remains that the 3 players we bought ourselves have all been fantastic. It'd be silly not to consider letting the current mangager work another window, and another.

After Martial returned, our form has quite frankly vastly improved. We're scoring goals again. And enough with this bullsh*t about beating the great "bla bla club". Norwich battered Manchester City, Brighton beat Tottenham 3-0, Chelsea lost to Liverpool, Liverpool were lucky to walk away with a point at Old Trafford (we beat Chelsea 4-0). Fact of the matter remains that we've had a comfortable time with the top6 sides under the current manager. Right now I'm quite happy to continue on the current path for a few select reasons.

1) I absolutely HATE discontinuity - It's the worst thing in the world. Discontinuity breeds insecurity and unrest. For a club like Manchester United, who enjoyed 26 managers for it's 127 year long history. Sir Alex led the club 27 years. Imagine that, we have fans that at the point of his retirement had grown into adults and never known any other manager at the club. That is why there is a statue of the man outside Old Trafford. The sheer example of the kind of tenacity Alex Ferguson put into the club is what we should strive for. It's part of this clubs entire goddamn identity. We do not change managers like other Chelsea fire their's every other Sunday.

We are in the middle of a identity rebuild. The board, the staff, everyone acknowledges that what we have done the past 7 years has not worked. So we are trying something else, to rebuild a new Class of 92. Of course it won't ever be like that, but the principle is there. We make superstars. The process takes time, sorry to say but that's the reality of the situation. Like Ed Woodward said: "We will not be distracted by short term setbacks". What matters is the progress. I am MORE than happy to write off this season if it means the kids are ready to compete next season. More than happy to.

2) Hiring a manager who was JUST fired from a rival team who we have a better record than.. what type of ambition is that? Or better yet, what kind of signal does that send to the world? Tottenham has a win percentage of 37% in all competitions in 2019. I'm sorry, but no top6 team in England is going to hire him until he proves himself again. MUFC have invested heavily into OGS and will continue to do so as long as there is improvement. And improvement there is.

3) OGS has for all his hatred from fans who don't have patience, the 4th best win% of any MUFC manager, behind Sir Alex, Mourinho, and the great Ernest Mangnall, edging out Van Gaal. And obviously a much better record than Poch in 2019. A full year almost.

4) Player management. OGS's player management is from all that we currently know EXCELLENT. Even Lukaku who left the club on bad terms recently in an interview said that "Solskjær had his eternal respect for allowing him to go". Reports from the training ground about players being unhappy about the training stems from a comment from one of the Spaniards who didn't like all the running to prepare them for the season. This was said during preseason, nothing after. Rumblings from Tottenham mention that both Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld are unhappy with the mangers treatment. Christian Eriksen is relegated to the bench after refusing to sign a new contract. Who knows what actually goes on behind the scenes,but I'm fairly sure that a 27 year old Eriksen is not happy about being benched, contributing to his impressive loss of form. On top of that several media outlets have mentioned player discontent with the managers negativity in the media. (If anyone wonders why OGS is so positive all the time, this is why, as if the obvious needed saying).

5) We are seeing player improvement across the board. Marcus Rashford was relied upon to be our guy this season. His career best scoring is 13 on the season in ALL competitions before this season. He currently sits at 9, less than 1/3 into the season. Mason Greenwood just turned 18 and is due his first EPL goal. He's scored in Europe and shown that he's good enough to play first team games with the club. Brandon Williams is our new Leftback, i've seen enough to be convinced he can be that guy. Angel Gomes is a crazy exciting player, James Garner keeps getting involvements, AWB is a developing player, same with Daniel James who's had an immediate impact in the Premier League. Even Fred has shown glimpses of greatness recently, can he sustain it? Tuanzebe looks to edge out Lindelöf soon. We got so many crazy exciting EPL ready and progressing players.

Fact of the matter is that we are in a process that is in its infancy. The board has no reason to interrupt it, the players have not shown any indication that they want to interrupt it, and quite frankly why do we want to bring in a manager who has never won anything, who was just fired from his club for completely losing the team, in the first place? We might as well hire Jose Mourinho again then, he's a better manager than Pochettino is in every aspect of the game.

Brilliant post. No 2 ways about it.

 

[Ban]

It is obvious. People said same thing about Sarri, he won Europa league with Chelsea, his first club where they were favorites to win something. He might even win Serie A this season. 2 seasons ago he was a bottler, now with Chelsea and Juve he will be a winner.

If you need better example, just check Jose's history. Called 2nd as failure everywhere, then when he didn't have the best team, 2nd became his best ever achievement. You win when you manage teams capable of winning, with exceptions.

Until he himself proves it its not obvious its just an assumption. Im not sure how Jose example falls into this.

 

[roonster09]

Until he himself proves it its not obvious its just an assumption. Im not sure how Jose example falls into this.

Stronger teams capable of winning trophies = more chances of winning trophies.

If Poch becomes PSG, Juve, Bayern manager then the chances of him winning a trophy will be much higher than Jose winning 1 at Spurs.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Ridiculosus!

Get real United fans. Let's get behind our current plan for another season and address any problems in the summer.

Hiring Poch at this point is knee jerk. If he wanted to come here he would have made the right noises when Mourinho was sacked.

Not even that but the way some talk about him you'd think he won the treble with Swansa or something; back in the real World, he has 0 trophies in 5 years, one of the worst records against the top sides especially away (3 wins out of 30) and for the last year has shown he can not motivate a team that is down on it's luck. Apart from some nice looking football there is little to suggest he's a top manager let alone world class. Decent, but way over rated. Ole has a positive record against him btw.

 

[Cassidy]

This.

He was crying on the pitch when they beat Ajax. A team of kids. He totally lost all focus.

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A lot of context is missed with what was happening at Spurs prior to reaching that final.
He wasn't allowed to improve the squad over a period of 18 months and even before then I think the addition was Moura. He absolutely did a fantastic job just reaching the final

 

[jackal&hyde]

Klopp won the league twice before his bad season, while Poch has won nothing, in fact he wasted the opportunity of the century to win the league. Pochs achievement is to improve Spurs' league position by maybe 2 positions on average, not counting this season. Which is OK, but nothing jaw-dropping.

That's the cold hard truth imo; that and playing some decent football at times when much better managers like Klopp and Pep were actually wining or competing with similar styles of play. The caviat here is that this was made possible by a terrible United, Arsenal and Chelsea, all being in some sort of transition. Leicester beat him to the title ffs...

 

[shaky]

Not even that but the way some talk about him you'd think he won the treble with Swansa or something; back in the real World, he has 0 trophies in 5 years, one of the worst records against the top sides especially away (3 wins out of 30) and for the last year has shown he can not motivate a team that is down on it's luck. Apart from some nice looking football there is little to suggest he's a top manager let alone world class. Decent, but way over rated. Ole has a positive record against him btw.

Agree. Small budget or not, Poch has had a great squad for the past few years. Far better than ours. If he was Utd manager with that squad, and delivered no trophies or title challenges in that time, most people would be demanding his head.

 

[Schneckerl]

A question for the "Poch has never won a trophy crowd":
If he had gone balls out in the League Cup and won it would you shut up about it and view him way more favorably?

 

[passing-wind]

I don't have to give you anything, it is not my problem that your arguments are a mess, and fail to have a decent platform to give your perspective when you are so clearly biased and one sided in your arguments and opinions. I will support the manager, whoever that is, and while the results are not great it is still not as bad as some want it to be. As for your predictions, they are as useless and baseless as most of your posts have been.

I just can't see where your coming from, your posts summarizes that Poch has not attained any success in England because he's not won anything bottom line. There's a visible grey area surrounding the relativity of Poch's success, your unable to consider the circumstances at spurs so feel that any disclosure of credit is somehow overindulgence from those who would take him over Ole. I'm not going to exchange considerations regarding this because that is your logic which is the forefront of your concensus / agenda.

I have no bias against Ole, he was quality player for the club, he's influence is downplayed due to the status of being a super sub but what he had that 90% of strikers are missing nowadays is the clinical instincts in front goal. This however has no relevance to his attributes as a manager. What I'm connoting profusely is that Poch in half a decade, having spent £29 million NET per season and having four UCL qualifications finishes along with a UCL final, would give him a greater chance at success at Manchester United, compared to Ole's Norwegian league success with Molde. If Poch to you is about as useful as Moyes because he hasn't won anything then to you there's less of a distinction between their assertions as managers. The only reason why hindsight is needed is because Solskjaer has thus far massively underperformed since he's been appointed our manager.

 

[el3mel]

I just find it weird overall how Poch was the Caf darling while we had Mourinho but now with Ole at the wheel he has been criticized more than praised. Perspective.

Anyway this trophies thing I have slaughtered him on multiple times but reality check, we are not going to win feck all for few years. We need to rebuild the squad and develop some youngsters while delivering consistent top 4 to keep money going. Poch checks all this. What are we gaining with keeping Ole over getting Poch, I don't get it? Poch is far better in almost every perspective. It's weird.

 

[jackal&hyde]

A question for the "Poch has never won a trophy crowd":
If he had gone balls out in the League Cup and won it would you shut up about it and view him way more favorably?

Never winning one of the achievable trophies (5 years means 5 FA cups + 5 League cups = 10 realistic trophies to fight for) is but one argument but yes, had he won a couple he would have proved he can go the extra mile that is necessary to win instead of just playing pretty and being "close". Top managers tend to be able to do this, even the terrible United of late has had that with LVG and Mourinho.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Didn’t he say trophies are over rated?

I don’t want Poch here, he’s had more than a decent squad while he’s been at spurs and done nothing with it. Absolutely dire record against top 6, crashed and burned after a few years. What difference would he do here?

 

[passing-wind]

I just find it weird overall how Poch was the Caf darling while we had Mourinho but now with Ole at the wheel he has been criticized more than praised. Perspective.

Anyway this trophies thing I have slaughtered him on multiple times but reality check, we are not going to win feck all for few years. We need to rebuild the squad and develop some youngsters while delivering consistent top 4 to keep money going. Poch checks all this. What are we gaining with keeping Ole over getting Poch, I don't get it? Poch is far better in almost every perspective. It's weird.

Fans especially are temperamental and bias, there are good points that go against Poch which many can use however it's not like we have a decent manager to balance the equation. I would completely understand Poch's omission if we had a credible coach or the teams performances / results were consistent. But given our current rate we will remain outside the top 6 for now and the foreseeable future because without UCL qualification the lofty signings aren't going to happen.

 

[Tom Cato]

A question for the "Poch has never won a trophy crowd":
If he had gone balls out in the League Cup and won it would you shut up about it and view him way more favorably?

No, not really. But in the timeline we inhabit, he is a manager who has never won anything

 

[jackal&hyde]

I just find it weird overall how Poch was the Caf darling while we had Mourinho but now with Ole at the wheel he has been criticized more than praised. Perspective.

Anyway this trophies thing I have slaughtered him on multiple times but reality check, we are not going to win feck all for few years. We need to rebuild the squad and develop some youngsters while delivering consistent top 4 to keep money going. Poch checks all this. What are we gaining with keeping Ole over getting Poch, I don't get it? Poch is far better in almost every perspective. It's weird.

Do elaborate on that because i don't know how to make the comparison here. They both have won nothing, but with Ole not having even a full campaign yet while Poch had 5. The only metric i have to compare the two can be direct games and in that regard Ole is 2-0 on him. Not saying one is better then the other but a comparison will be made IMO after Ole gets a few seasons under his belt. Had he done a Klopp and won a couple of leagues then sure, things are clear, but as it is, i don't know what makes him "better in every perspective" (especially when we don't know what Ole can do in a couple of seasons, we are talking November of his first full season).

 

[troylocker]

I have a quick argument:

Van Gaal and Mourinho BOTH have a long history of improving existing resources in their club, so this argument is flat. Also, Tottenham is not a broke club, they have a net spend of £67m in 2019 and ALSO tried to do the Dybala deal at £60-70m~. Yes they are not us or Manchester City, but they do have funds to buy talent and players.

But my grief with the Pochettino love is this:

Both LvG and Jose Mourinho have vastly better track records as managers for their respective clubs. Jose Mourinho has won trophies everywhere he went. LvG developed Thomas Müller at Bayern when they had a struggling season opener just to name one example. Jose Mourinho is the one that brought in Mikel Obi, Mario Balotelli, Jesé, Alvaro Morata, Nacho, Fabinho, Diego Llorente, Varane, Traoré, Ruben Loftus-Cheek to name just a handful. To say that any of these managers don't improve young players is just factually incorrect and does a disservice to the discussion if it's not brought up when its pointed out in favor of Pochettino.

I mean, our current manager does have a track record of improving young players as well. Literally. OGS worked with Ben Foster, Rafael, Mame Biram Diouf, Gabriel Obertan and Paul Pogba at the Reserves during his first coaching spell at the club. Most noteably recently he's had his part in helping develop Erling Braut Haaland in Molde.

And super recent history: Mason Greenwood, Brandon Williams, Angel Gomes (injured), Tuanzebe and Daniel James who's all had fantastic impacts the many or few times they've played. Remember Daniel James was a signing no one or very few thought would have an impact, and he's been one of our more noticeable players all season. Brandon Williams has been man of the match BOTH times he's played. Saying that OGS is not developing the youngsters is just such an unfathomable lie I don't even know where to begin. We routinely play the youngest team in any given EPL round, but we don't have focus on youngsters?

We let in fewer goals than last season. In fact we have one of the best defenses in the league this season.

Pochettino more than almost any manager, struggles hard against top6 opposition. This table from the BBC underlines this: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/624/cpsprodpb/136A5/production/_109752597_big_six.png - His great track record comes from stability against "lesser" opposition. And to be completely fair, he DOES deserve credit and accolades for that. He is not by any metric a bad manager. But he has completely lost the team. Something is rotten at Tottenham, and he is the leader. Or was. Tottenham has lost 18 games in 2019. That is more than anyone else. Tottenham is literally the team that loses the most in Britain in this year.

So what's the takeaway here? Do you blame the players because they aren't motivated? Or do you do what the caf does to our own team and blame the manager for every single thing that goes wrong? Like, I don't understand the double standard here.

Pochettino inherited a squad that included Hugo Lloris, Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, Jan Vertonghen, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele and Harry Kane. Harry Kane has been a MONSTER over the last few seasons. Pochettinos team would be nowhere near the top6 if Harry had not been there. Harry Kane scored 169 league goals under Pochettino. Second on that list? Son - with 75. Kane is so far and above anyone that if you remove him from the equation, Tottenham is Bornemouth.

So why not Poch? Well. He's not won anything. Ever. Yes he has taken his team to the Champions Leauge. But we just employed managers who have done that routinely. Managers who won trophies and developed young players into superstars in their respective club. Tottenham has a much better squad on paper than MUFC does right now, I'll happily admit that. Especially with their recent transfer window. But fact remains that the 3 players we bought ourselves have all been fantastic. It'd be silly not to consider letting the current mangager work another window, and another.

After Martial returned, our form has quite frankly vastly improved. We're scoring goals again. And enough with this bullsh*t about beating the great "bla bla club". Norwich battered Manchester City, Brighton beat Tottenham 3-0, Chelsea lost to Liverpool, Liverpool were lucky to walk away with a point at Old Trafford (we beat Chelsea 4-0). Fact of the matter remains that we've had a comfortable time with the top6 sides under the current manager. Right now I'm quite happy to continue on the current path for a few select reasons.

1) I absolutely HATE discontinuity - It's the worst thing in the world. Discontinuity breeds insecurity and unrest. For a club like Manchester United, who enjoyed 26 managers for it's 127 year long history. Sir Alex led the club 27 years. Imagine that, we have fans that at the point of his retirement had grown into adults and never known any other manager at the club. That is why there is a statue of the man outside Old Trafford. The sheer example of the kind of tenacity Alex Ferguson put into the club is what we should strive for. It's part of this clubs entire goddamn identity. We do not change managers like other Chelsea fire their's every other Sunday.

We are in the middle of a identity rebuild. The board, the staff, everyone acknowledges that what we have done the past 7 years has not worked. So we are trying something else, to rebuild a new Class of 92. Of course it won't ever be like that, but the principle is there. We make superstars. The process takes time, sorry to say but that's the reality of the situation. Like Ed Woodward said: "We will not be distracted by short term setbacks". What matters is the progress. I am MORE than happy to write off this season if it means the kids are ready to compete next season. More than happy to.

2) Hiring a manager who was JUST fired from a rival team who we have a better record than.. what type of ambition is that? Or better yet, what kind of signal does that send to the world? Tottenham has a win percentage of 37% in all competitions in 2019. I'm sorry, but no top6 team in England is going to hire him until he proves himself again. MUFC have invested heavily into OGS and will continue to do so as long as there is improvement. And improvement there is.

3) OGS has for all his hatred from fans who don't have patience, the 4th best win% of any MUFC manager, behind Sir Alex, Mourinho, and the great Ernest Mangnall, edging out Van Gaal. And obviously a much better record than Poch in 2019. A full year almost.

4) Player management. OGS's player management is from all that we currently know EXCELLENT. Even Lukaku who left the club on bad terms recently in an interview said that "Solskjær had his eternal respect for allowing him to go". Reports from the training ground about players being unhappy about the training stems from a comment from one of the Spaniards who didn't like all the running to prepare them for the season. This was said during preseason, nothing after. Rumblings from Tottenham mention that both Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld are unhappy with the mangers treatment. Christian Eriksen is relegated to the bench after refusing to sign a new contract. Who knows what actually goes on behind the scenes,but I'm fairly sure that a 27 year old Eriksen is not happy about being benched, contributing to his impressive loss of form. On top of that several media outlets have mentioned player discontent with the managers negativity in the media. (If anyone wonders why OGS is so positive all the time, this is why, as if the obvious needed saying).

5) We are seeing player improvement across the board. Marcus Rashford was relied upon to be our guy this season. His career best scoring is 13 on the season in ALL competitions before this season. He currently sits at 9, less than 1/3 into the season. Mason Greenwood just turned 18 and is due his first EPL goal. He's scored in Europe and shown that he's good enough to play first team games with the club. Brandon Williams is our new Leftback, i've seen enough to be convinced he can be that guy. Angel Gomes is a crazy exciting player, James Garner keeps getting involvements, AWB is a developing player, same with Daniel James who's had an immediate impact in the Premier League. Even Fred has shown glimpses of greatness recently, can he sustain it? Tuanzebe looks to edge out Lindelöf soon. We got so many crazy exciting EPL ready and progressing players.

Fact of the matter is that we are in a process that is in its infancy. The board has no reason to interrupt it, the players have not shown any indication that they want to interrupt it, and quite frankly why do we want to bring in a manager who has never won anything, who was just fired from his club for completely losing the team, in the first place? We might as well hire Jose Mourinho again then, he's a better manager than Pochettino is in every aspect of the game.

Excellent post! Agree 100%

 

[el3mel]

Do elaborate on that because i don't know how to make the comparison here. They both have won nothing, but with Ole not having even a full campaign yet while Poch had 5. The only metric i have to compare the two can be direct games and in that regard Ole is 2-0 on him. Not saying one is better then the other but a comparison will be made IMO after Ole gets a few seasons under his belt. Had he done a Klopp and won a couple of leagues then sure, things are clear, but as it is, i don't know what makes him "better in every perspective" (especially when we don't know what Ole can do in a couple of seasons, we are talking November of his first full season).

Poch having 5 previous years at PL is because he's simply better and more wanted manager whose career has been on the up from Spain to South to Spurs. Ole managed in PL one time and no one touch him since we decided to hire him. If he was that good enough other PL teams would have hired him these previous years. This is the reality really. There no logical person that would have thought it is a good idea to give a manager managing at Norwegian league the United job back whole Mourinho was having his meltdown. If anyone had said that previously, he would have been laughed at, while Poch is a very wanted manager whom if we don't get him, other big clubs will seek him. Not like he's waiting for us or anything.

Direct games are also kinda irrelevant. Ferguson had terrible record against Pep and Mourinho. Means feck all in the long run.

 

[RedNed77]

Stronger teams capable of winning trophies = more chances of winning trophies.

If Poch becomes PSG, Juve, Bayern manager then the chances of him winning a trophy will be much higher than Jose winning 1 at Spurs.

So if you let him manage the faraway and best team in a one team league he will win trophies? Sounds amazing, we should sign him up. For what its worth, I would also like to throw my hat into the ring for these jobs, I'm wasted sitting here at my desk avoiding work

 

[jackal&hyde]

I have a quick argument:

Van Gaal and Mourinho BOTH have a long history of improving existing resources in their club, so this argument is flat. Also, Tottenham is not a broke club, they have a net spend of £67m in 2019 and ALSO tried to do the Dybala deal at £60-70m~. Yes they are not us or Manchester City, but they do have funds to buy talent and players.

But my grief with the Pochettino love is this:

Both LvG and Jose Mourinho have vastly better track records as managers for their respective clubs. Jose Mourinho has won trophies everywhere he went. LvG developed Thomas Müller at Bayern when they had a struggling season opener just to name one example. Jose Mourinho is the one that brought in Mikel Obi, Mario Balotelli, Jesé, Alvaro Morata, Nacho, Fabinho, Diego Llorente, Varane, Traoré, Ruben Loftus-Cheek to name just a handful. To say that any of these managers don't improve young players is just factually incorrect and does a disservice to the discussion if it's not brought up when its pointed out in favor of Pochettino.

I mean, our current manager does have a track record of improving young players as well. Literally. OGS worked with Ben Foster, Rafael, Mame Biram Diouf, Gabriel Obertan and Paul Pogba at the Reserves during his first coaching spell at the club. Most noteably recently he's had his part in helping develop Erling Braut Haaland in Molde.

And super recent history: Mason Greenwood, Brandon Williams, Angel Gomes (injured), Tuanzebe and Daniel James who's all had fantastic impacts the many or few times they've played. Remember Daniel James was a signing no one or very few thought would have an impact, and he's been one of our more noticeable players all season. Brandon Williams has been man of the match BOTH times he's played. Saying that OGS is not developing the youngsters is just such an unfathomable lie I don't even know where to begin. We routinely play the youngest team in any given EPL round, but we don't have focus on youngsters?

We let in fewer goals than last season. In fact we have one of the best defenses in the league this season.

Pochettino more than almost any manager, struggles hard against top6 opposition. This table from the BBC underlines this: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/624/cpsprodpb/136A5/production/_109752597_big_six.png - His great track record comes from stability against "lesser" opposition. And to be completely fair, he DOES deserve credit and accolades for that. He is not by any metric a bad manager. But he has completely lost the team. Something is rotten at Tottenham, and he is the leader. Or was. Tottenham has lost 18 games in 2019. That is more than anyone else. Tottenham is literally the team that loses the most in Britain in this year.

So what's the takeaway here? Do you blame the players because they aren't motivated? Or do you do what the caf does to our own team and blame the manager for every single thing that goes wrong? Like, I don't understand the double standard here.

Pochettino inherited a squad that included Hugo Lloris, Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, Jan Vertonghen, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele and Harry Kane. Harry Kane has been a MONSTER over the last few seasons. Pochettinos team would be nowhere near the top6 if Harry had not been there. Harry Kane scored 169 league goals under Pochettino. Second on that list? Son - with 75. Kane is so far and above anyone that if you remove him from the equation, Tottenham is Bornemouth.

So why not Poch? Well. He's not won anything. Ever. Yes he has taken his team to the Champions Leauge. But we just employed managers who have done that routinely. Managers who won trophies and developed young players into superstars in their respective club. Tottenham has a much better squad on paper than MUFC does right now, I'll happily admit that. Especially with their recent transfer window. But fact remains that the 3 players we bought ourselves have all been fantastic. It'd be silly not to consider letting the current mangager work another window, and another.

After Martial returned, our form has quite frankly vastly improved. We're scoring goals again. And enough with this bullsh*t about beating the great "bla bla club". Norwich battered Manchester City, Brighton beat Tottenham 3-0, Chelsea lost to Liverpool, Liverpool were lucky to walk away with a point at Old Trafford (we beat Chelsea 4-0). Fact of the matter remains that we've had a comfortable time with the top6 sides under the current manager. Right now I'm quite happy to continue on the current path for a few select reasons.

1) I absolutely HATE discontinuity - It's the worst thing in the world. Discontinuity breeds insecurity and unrest. For a club like Manchester United, who enjoyed 26 managers for it's 127 year long history. Sir Alex led the club 27 years. Imagine that, we have fans that at the point of his retirement had grown into adults and never known any other manager at the club. That is why there is a statue of the man outside Old Trafford. The sheer example of the kind of tenacity Alex Ferguson put into the club is what we should strive for. It's part of this clubs entire goddamn identity. We do not change managers like other Chelsea fire their's every other Sunday.

We are in the middle of a identity rebuild. The board, the staff, everyone acknowledges that what we have done the past 7 years has not worked. So we are trying something else, to rebuild a new Class of 92. Of course it won't ever be like that, but the principle is there. We make superstars. The process takes time, sorry to say but that's the reality of the situation. Like Ed Woodward said: "We will not be distracted by short term setbacks". What matters is the progress. I am MORE than happy to write off this season if it means the kids are ready to compete next season. More than happy to.

2) Hiring a manager who was JUST fired from a rival team who we have a better record than.. what type of ambition is that? Or better yet, what kind of signal does that send to the world? Tottenham has a win percentage of 37% in all competitions in 2019. I'm sorry, but no top6 team in England is going to hire him until he proves himself again. MUFC have invested heavily into OGS and will continue to do so as long as there is improvement. And improvement there is.

3) OGS has for all his hatred from fans who don't have patience, the 4th best win% of any MUFC manager, behind Sir Alex, Mourinho, and the great Ernest Mangnall, edging out Van Gaal. And obviously a much better record than Poch in 2019. A full year almost.

4) Player management. OGS's player management is from all that we currently know EXCELLENT. Even Lukaku who left the club on bad terms recently in an interview said that "Solskjær had his eternal respect for allowing him to go". Reports from the training ground about players being unhappy about the training stems from a comment from one of the Spaniards who didn't like all the running to prepare them for the season. This was said during preseason, nothing after. Rumblings from Tottenham mention that both Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld are unhappy with the mangers treatment. Christian Eriksen is relegated to the bench after refusing to sign a new contract. Who knows what actually goes on behind the scenes,but I'm fairly sure that a 27 year old Eriksen is not happy about being benched, contributing to his impressive loss of form. On top of that several media outlets have mentioned player discontent with the managers negativity in the media. (If anyone wonders why OGS is so positive all the time, this is why, as if the obvious needed saying).

5) We are seeing player improvement across the board. Marcus Rashford was relied upon to be our guy this season. His career best scoring is 13 on the season in ALL competitions before this season. He currently sits at 9, less than 1/3 into the season. Mason Greenwood just turned 18 and is due his first EPL goal. He's scored in Europe and shown that he's good enough to play first team games with the club. Brandon Williams is our new Leftback, i've seen enough to be convinced he can be that guy. Angel Gomes is a crazy exciting player, James Garner keeps getting involvements, AWB is a developing player, same with Daniel James who's had an immediate impact in the Premier League. Even Fred has shown glimpses of greatness recently, can he sustain it? Tuanzebe looks to edge out Lindelöf soon. We got so many crazy exciting EPL ready and progressing players.

Fact of the matter is that we are in a process that is in its infancy. The board has no reason to interrupt it, the players have not shown any indication that they want to interrupt it, and quite frankly why do we want to bring in a manager who has never won anything, who was just fired from his club for completely losing the team, in the first place? We might as well hire Jose Mourinho again then, he's a better manager than Pochettino is in every aspect of the game.

Great post!

 

[matherto]

A question for the "Poch has never won a trophy crowd":
If he had gone balls out in the League Cup and won it would you shut up about it and view him way more favorably?

Yes, because he SHOULD be going balls out to win the League Cup, especially so when he hasn't won ANYTHING.

He even said last year that he didn't need to win trophies, what kind of shite mentality is that?

If you've never won a trophy you should be trying doubly hard to win one, Poch decided he didn't want to.

Posh David Moyes.

 

[roonster09]

So if you let him manage the faraway and best team in a one team league he will win trophies? Sounds amazing, we should sign him up. For what its worth, I would also like to throw my hat into the ring for these jobs, I'm wasted sitting here at my desk avoiding work

And then you made meaningless post without understanding the context.

 

[noodlehair]

Someone I hope we are seriously looking at come the end of the season. I want Ole to succeed but definitely cannot place all our chips on him.

The guy has won nothing and now the team he managed have literally sacked him to replace him WITH the guy people wanted us to sack in order to get him.

I mean what will it actually take to make all the pining for this fantasy version of Pochettino from United fans to stop?

The Pochettino United fans seem to want to manage us simply doesn't exist.

 

[Schneckerl]

Yes, because he SHOULD be going balls out to win the League Cup, especially so when he hasn't won ANYTHING.

Well there seems to be a difference in what (some) fans want and how clubs actually operate, the goals they set and what is benefitial in the mid/long term. It's not going all in fo
Spurs reached the Champions League Final (how many million £?) and finished in the Top 4. Consistent CL football, this is how you establish yourself - the League Cup will follow.

Posh David Moyes.

How? Are Spurs in a better state pre or post Poch?

 

[Bobcat]

I have a quick argument:

Van Gaal and Mourinho BOTH have a long history of improving existing resources in their club, so this argument is flat. Also, Tottenham is not a broke club, they have a net spend of £67m in 2019 and ALSO tried to do the Dybala deal at £60-70m~. Yes they are not us or Manchester City, but they do have funds to buy talent and players.

But my grief with the Pochettino love is this:

Both LvG and Jose Mourinho have vastly better track records as managers for their respective clubs. Jose Mourinho has won trophies everywhere he went. LvG developed Thomas Müller at Bayern when they had a struggling season opener just to name one example. Jose Mourinho is the one that brought in Mikel Obi, Mario Balotelli, Jesé, Alvaro Morata, Nacho, Fabinho, Diego Llorente, Varane, Traoré, Ruben Loftus-Cheek to name just a handful. To say that any of these managers don't improve young players is just factually incorrect and does a disservice to the discussion if it's not brought up when its pointed out in favor of Pochettino.

I mean, our current manager does have a track record of improving young players as well. Literally. OGS worked with Ben Foster, Rafael, Mame Biram Diouf, Gabriel Obertan and Paul Pogba at the Reserves during his first coaching spell at the club. Most noteably recently he's had his part in helping develop Erling Braut Haaland in Molde.

And super recent history: Mason Greenwood, Brandon Williams, Angel Gomes (injured), Tuanzebe and Daniel James who's all had fantastic impacts the many or few times they've played. Remember Daniel James was a signing no one or very few thought would have an impact, and he's been one of our more noticeable players all season. Brandon Williams has been man of the match BOTH times he's played. Saying that OGS is not developing the youngsters is just such an unfathomable lie I don't even know where to begin. We routinely play the youngest team in any given EPL round, but we don't have focus on youngsters?

We let in fewer goals than last season. In fact we have one of the best defenses in the league this season.

Pochettino more than almost any manager, struggles hard against top6 opposition. This table from the BBC underlines this: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/624/cpsprodpb/136A5/production/_109752597_big_six.png - His great track record comes from stability against "lesser" opposition. And to be completely fair, he DOES deserve credit and accolades for that. He is not by any metric a bad manager. But he has completely lost the team. Something is rotten at Tottenham, and he is the leader. Or was. Tottenham has lost 18 games in 2019. That is more than anyone else. Tottenham is literally the team that loses the most in Britain in this year.

So what's the takeaway here? Do you blame the players because they aren't motivated? Or do you do what the caf does to our own team and blame the manager for every single thing that goes wrong? Like, I don't understand the double standard here.

Pochettino inherited a squad that included Hugo Lloris, Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, Jan Vertonghen, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele and Harry Kane. Harry Kane has been a MONSTER over the last few seasons. Pochettinos team would be nowhere near the top6 if Harry had not been there. Harry Kane scored 169 league goals under Pochettino. Second on that list? Son - with 75. Kane is so far and above anyone that if you remove him from the equation, Tottenham is Bornemouth.

So why not Poch? Well. He's not won anything. Ever. Yes he has taken his team to the Champions Leauge. But we just employed managers who have done that routinely. Managers who won trophies and developed young players into superstars in their respective club. Tottenham has a much better squad on paper than MUFC does right now, I'll happily admit that. Especially with their recent transfer window. But fact remains that the 3 players we bought ourselves have all been fantastic. It'd be silly not to consider letting the current mangager work another window, and another.

After Martial returned, our form has quite frankly vastly improved. We're scoring goals again. And enough with this bullsh*t about beating the great "bla bla club". Norwich battered Manchester City, Brighton beat Tottenham 3-0, Chelsea lost to Liverpool, Liverpool were lucky to walk away with a point at Old Trafford (we beat Chelsea 4-0). Fact of the matter remains that we've had a comfortable time with the top6 sides under the current manager. Right now I'm quite happy to continue on the current path for a few select reasons.

1) I absolutely HATE discontinuity - It's the worst thing in the world. Discontinuity breeds insecurity and unrest. For a club like Manchester United, who enjoyed 26 managers for it's 127 year long history. Sir Alex led the club 27 years. Imagine that, we have fans that at the point of his retirement had grown into adults and never known any other manager at the club. That is why there is a statue of the man outside Old Trafford. The sheer example of the kind of tenacity Alex Ferguson put into the club is what we should strive for. It's part of this clubs entire goddamn identity. We do not change managers like other Chelsea fire their's every other Sunday.

We are in the middle of a identity rebuild. The board, the staff, everyone acknowledges that what we have done the past 7 years has not worked. So we are trying something else, to rebuild a new Class of 92. Of course it won't ever be like that, but the principle is there. We make superstars. The process takes time, sorry to say but that's the reality of the situation. Like Ed Woodward said: "We will not be distracted by short term setbacks". What matters is the progress. I am MORE than happy to write off this season if it means the kids are ready to compete next season. More than happy to.

2) Hiring a manager who was JUST fired from a rival team who we have a better record than.. what type of ambition is that? Or better yet, what kind of signal does that send to the world? Tottenham has a win percentage of 37% in all competitions in 2019. I'm sorry, but no top6 team in England is going to hire him until he proves himself again. MUFC have invested heavily into OGS and will continue to do so as long as there is improvement. And improvement there is.

3) OGS has for all his hatred from fans who don't have patience, the 4th best win% of any MUFC manager, behind Sir Alex, Mourinho, and the great Ernest Mangnall, edging out Van Gaal. And obviously a much better record than Poch in 2019. A full year almost.

4) Player management. OGS's player management is from all that we currently know EXCELLENT. Even Lukaku who left the club on bad terms recently in an interview said that "Solskjær had his eternal respect for allowing him to go". Reports from the training ground about players being unhappy about the training stems from a comment from one of the Spaniards who didn't like all the running to prepare them for the season. This was said during preseason, nothing after. Rumblings from Tottenham mention that both Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld are unhappy with the mangers treatment. Christian Eriksen is relegated to the bench after refusing to sign a new contract. Who knows what actually goes on behind the scenes,but I'm fairly sure that a 27 year old Eriksen is not happy about being benched, contributing to his impressive loss of form. On top of that several media outlets have mentioned player discontent with the managers negativity in the media. (If anyone wonders why OGS is so positive all the time, this is why, as if the obvious needed saying).

5) We are seeing player improvement across the board. Marcus Rashford was relied upon to be our guy this season. His career best scoring is 13 on the season in ALL competitions before this season. He currently sits at 9, less than 1/3 into the season. Mason Greenwood just turned 18 and is due his first EPL goal. He's scored in Europe and shown that he's good enough to play first team games with the club. Brandon Williams is our new Leftback, i've seen enough to be convinced he can be that guy. Angel Gomes is a crazy exciting player, James Garner keeps getting involvements, AWB is a developing player, same with Daniel James who's had an immediate impact in the Premier League. Even Fred has shown glimpses of greatness recently, can he sustain it? Tuanzebe looks to edge out Lindelöf soon. We got so many crazy exciting EPL ready and progressing players.

Fact of the matter is that we are in a process that is in its infancy. The board has no reason to interrupt it, the players have not shown any indication that they want to interrupt it, and quite frankly why do we want to bring in a manager who has never won anything, who was just fired from his club for completely losing the team, in the first place? We might as well hire Jose Mourinho again then, he's a better manager than Pochettino is in every aspect of the game.

Great post.

Poch isn't the answer. Not now anyways.

I also find it pretty strange that people are making all sorts of excuses for Poch and his awful record in 2019, in his fifth full season, where with Ole "the buck stops with the manager" despite it being his first full season and everyone knowing we are in a rebuild

 

[jackal&hyde]

Poch having 5 previous years at PL is because he's simply better and more wanted manager whose career has been on the up from Spain to South to Spurs. Ole managed in PL one time and no one touch him since we decided to hire him. If he was that good enough other PL teams would have hired him these previous years. This is the reality really. There no logical person that would have thought it is a good idea to give a manager managing at Norwegian league the United job back whole Mourinho was having his meltdown. If anyone had said that previously, he would have been laughed at, while Poch is a very wanted manager whom if we don't get him, other big clubs will seek him. Not like he's waiting for us or anything.

Direct games are also kinda irrelevant. Ferguson had terrible record against Pep and Mourinho. Means feck all in the long run.

I don't disagree with all lot of that tbh; but given that whatever Poch is, a proven winner he is not, i would rather see out a couple of years under Ole as maybe he can be. There is enough good that i see in this United side to think we are going in the right direction. In the mean time, Poch can go somewhere else and prove he can go all the way; right now given what he has showed over 5 years he is not worth for me another restart to our rebuild.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Where is the guy that called himself Poch's mum?

 

[Dec9003]

Where is the guy that called himself Poch's mum?

Amadeus, self proclaimed footballing expert you mean? Probably sat with Poch catching up on I’m a celeb now he’s not working.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Amadeus, self proclaimed footballing expert you mean? Probably sat with Poch catching up on I’m a celeb now he’s not working.

Ah yes him, @Amadeus, are you penning your letter to Woody yet?

 

[crossy1686]

Ah yes him, @Amadeus, are you penning your letter to Woody yet?

He did that ages ago, back when Mourinho was in charge. He's probably on his 50th rendition by now.

 

[MrMarcello]

Where next for Poch?

Argentina NT?
Italian club?
La Liga club?
PSG in the summer?
Bayern in the summer?

TV booth/studio?