Abortion

[Sky1981]

So, if your uncle impregnated his niece through incestual rape, you would still be on the fence?

I'm not speaking morally.

Im speaking law wise. For medical person to allow and proceed with abortion they need a lawful reason. Say.. rape. Yes morally it's ok as you said. But how does that translate in practice? In most rape cases the trial could go months, and by then it would have been too late. And you really can't expect the to barge in to the clinic and say it's rape. They need some kind of proof to perform the abortion. Be it court decisions or at least something that can legally allows them to perform the abortion.

This is why laws are hard to formulate because there should be no grey area and in cases there are always grey area.

Say a woman in her 20 says she got raped and want to abort. How do you know she's saying the truth? I'm not saying women lie all the time but from the medical standpoint they cant take your word at face value.

 

[Keefy18]

I would suggest watching The Janes on HBO, it is a documentary based on the underground abortion network that existed in 1970s Chicago, regardless where someone lies in this issue.

Noticed this on my dodgy box yesterday, must have a look at it.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I'm not speaking morally.

Im speaking law wise. For medical person to allow and proceed with abortion they need a lawful reason. Say.. rape. Yes morally it's ok as you said. But how does that translate in practice? In most rape cases the trial could go months, and by then it would have been too late. And you really can't expect the to barge in to the clinic and say it's rape. They need some kind of proof to perform the abortion. Be it court decisions or at least something that can legally allows them to perform the abortion.

This is why laws are hard to formulate because there should be no grey area and in cases there are always grey area.

Say a woman in her 20 says she got raped and want to abort. How do you know she's saying the truth? I'm not saying women lie all the time but from the medical standpoint they cant take your word at face value.

If she could get an abortion anyway, why would she lie?

 

[Sky1981]

You said that it was a grey area whether the pregnancy caused by rape should be aborted if the mother wishes. To help you make the distinction between white and black, you were asked to use empathy.

As you yourself cannot be made pregnant, no matter how many times you are raped, the next closest thing to stir up some empathy in you is to apply it to your closest female, which is usually your wife or girlfriend.

If you can make a decision about your immediate female, then you can apply it to others. If you can't or won't do that thought exercise, your opinion is that of an alien.

The grey area is what constitutes a rape. And how do you put that in law. For a law that believes all are innocent until proven guilty then a rape would have to be decided by court. And that's not always applicable in 5 months most of the time. So you know, the application of it's ok to abort it becomes hard.

If you take an extreme case where a woman was tied and raped and impregnated then ok. But what it the rape or not a rape is still yet to be decided? How would the medical team acts on this?

It's easy to say this in a clear cut forum where all constraint are made up by the poster. But in real life.. how do you put that into law? That's something i dont have answer to

 

[Fingeredmouse]

I'm not speaking morally.

Im speaking law wise. For medical person to allow and proceed with abortion they need a lawful reason. Say.. rape. Yes morally it's ok as you said. But how does that translate in practice? In most rape cases the trial could go months, and by then it would have been too late. And you really can't expect the to barge in to the clinic and say it's rape. They need some kind of proof to perform the abortion. Be it court decisions or at least something that can legally allows them to perform the abortion.

This is why laws are hard to formulate because there should be no grey area and in cases there are always grey area.

Say a woman in her 20 says she got raped and want to abort. How do you know she's saying the truth? I'm not saying women lie all the time but from the medical standpoint they cant take your word at face value.

Yes, they can. Leaving aside the pitiful probabilities of rapes ever getting reported, never mind convicted, do you genuinely feel that people, at such a terrible time, should be forced to have to convince medical staff?

 

[Mike Smalling]

Say a woman in her 20 says she got raped and want to abort. How do you know she's saying the truth?

Jesus Christ. The hits just keep on coming.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

The grey area is what constitutes a rape. And how do you put that in law. For a law that believes all are innocent until proven guilty then a rape would have to be decided by court. And that's not always applicable in 5 months most of the time. So you know, the application of it's ok to abort it becomes hard.

If you take an extreme case where a woman was tied and raped and impregnated then ok. But what it the rape or not a rape is still yet to be decided? How would the medical team acts on this?

It's easy to say this in a clear cut forum where all constraint are made up by the poster. But in real life.. how do you put that into law? That's something i dont have answer to

You allow all abortions in law. You don't need to answer it...and more critically the person seeking an abortion doesn't need to answer to your subjective moral standards.

 

[calodo2003]

You honestly would be fine with a 24 week abortion? I really think at that point morally you have to give the child up for adoption. That's just not right. Look into what a 24 year old fetus is.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I am fully aware of what constitutes a fetus at the various terms. I would have absolutely no problem if the rape victim wanted to abort at 24 weeks or later.

 

[Withnail]

I'm not speaking morally.

Im speaking law wise. For medical person to allow and proceed with abortion they need a lawful reason. Say.. rape. Yes morally it's ok as you said. But how does that translate in practice? In most rape cases the trial could go months, and by then it would have been too late. And you really can't expect the to barge in to the clinic and say it's rape. They need some kind of proof to perform the abortion. Be it court decisions or at least something that can legally allows them to perform the abortion.

This is why laws are hard to formulate because there should be no grey area and in cases there are always grey area.

Say a woman in her 20 says she got raped and want to abort. How do you know she's saying the truth? I'm not saying women lie all the time but from the medical standpoint they cant take your word at face value.

That's exactly why you can't get into policing or legislating for people's motives. You pick a duration, and 12 weeks seems fine to me based on the science, and allow women and their doctors to choose. Nobody should have to prove anything in relation to why they want the procedure.

Also you mentioned wanting kids as a factor in your opinion on this. That's something you should probably drop when thinking about this. I wouldn't ever want a partner to go through with an abortion but it's absolutely their decision, not mine, and I'd stand by whatever decision they make. I've been there and have had these conversations. I don't think you can allow what you would or wouldn't do personally in a hypothetical situation to come into what should or shouldn't be legal for anyone else.

 

[Pexbo]

More proof that Sky isn’t a real person and is just a bot that peels the worst takes off the internet and packages them back up into intelligible waffle.

 

[calodo2003]

I'm not speaking morally.

Im speaking law wise. For medical person to allow and proceed with abortion they need a lawful reason. Say.. rape. Yes morally it's ok as you said. But how does that translate in practice? In most rape cases the trial could go months, and by then it would have been too late. And you really can't expect the to barge in to the clinic and say it's rape. They need some kind of proof to perform the abortion. Be it court decisions or at least something that can legally allows them to perform the abortion.

This is why laws are hard to formulate because there should be no grey area and in cases there are always grey area.

Say a woman in her 20 says she got raped and want to abort. How do you know she's saying the truth? I'm not saying women lie all the time but from the medical standpoint they cant take your word at face value.

So, you’d want to wait until legal proceedings are over before allowing an abortion?

Couple of questions?

1. Are you originally from or live in the US?

2. Are you religious?

3. Would you want your niece to get an abortion if she claimed her father raped & impregnated her? Try not to move the goal posts when answering this one.

 

[Sky1981]

If she could get an abortion anyway, why would she lie?

Because we're talking about when is abortion ok. Didnt we? And in this case the US... Which is what this thread is mostly on about says it's not ok.

If roe wade isnt overturned then we wont be having this discussion.

 

[RacingClub]

As adults we have to bear responsibility over our action. You can have safe sex with very little chance of pregnancy if you took enough precaution.

Ok this is why you should be totally fine with abortion after rape.

How can someone prepare to be raped and impregnated?

Why should the victim have to deal with the consequences of someone else's actions?

 

[calodo2003]

Jesus Christ. The hits just keep on coming.

What she was wearing is next on the bingo card.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

The grey area is what constitutes a rape. And how do you put that in law. For a law that believes all are innocent until proven guilty then a rape would have to be decided by court. And that's not always applicable in 5 months most of the time. So you know, the application of it's ok to abort it becomes hard.

If you take an extreme case where a woman was tied and raped and impregnated then ok. But what it the rape or not a rape is still yet to be decided? How would the medical team acts on this?

It's easy to say this in a clear cut forum where all constraint are made up by the poster. But in real life.. how do you put that into law? That's something i dont have answer to

There is no grey area to what is rape and not rape. In most countries, that's consent. Whether legally the rapists gets convicted or not, is nothing to do with the medical profession.

If a woman is out having a quiet drink, then is spiked, the rapist is unlikely to get convicted if he can say "she wanted to get drunk".

However, if she goes to an abortion clinic and can get an abortion regardless of whether she's been raped, why would she claim rape?

 

[VorZakone]

It'll never fail to amaze me how many folks seem open to legislating abortion. Not just having an opinion on it, but also being open to legislating it.

 

[cafecillos]

@Sky1981 you need to stop, your take on the rape hypothesis is frankly disgusting. And disguising it as legal concerns is so cowardly too. The exact legal framework for this is absolutely secondary, and certainly not for someone as ignorant about the "law" as yourself to ponder.

 

[Eyepopper]

Make the argument about gun control.

States are free to ban abortion, but they'll also have to restrict access to guns too because they're about to see a huge jump in population in underprivileged communities, single parent families, neglected and/or abused children, etc and you don't want those people having easy access to guns.

 

[Keefy18]

Absolutely some of the most bizarre and disgusting statements I've ever read on a forum @Sky1981

 

[Mike Smalling]

What she was wearing is next on the bingo card.

We are getting dangerously close to "control of semen intake" territory.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Because we're talking about when is abortion ok. Didnt we? And in this case the US... Which is what this thread is mostly on about says it's not ok.

If roe wade isnt overturned then we wont be having this discussion.

You're conflating a scientific time limit for normal abortions with an arbitrary time limit for rape induced ones.

Don't forget, quite often rape victims go into major depression and might not realise they are pregnant till much later. Is that woman then forced to go through the trauma of giving birth, adoption or 18 years of parenting a child born of rape? Add more trauma to the trauma victim just because she was traumatised initially?

 

[Sky1981]

@Sky1981 you need to stop, your take on the rape hypothesis is frankly disgusting. And disguising it as legal concerns is so cowardly too. The exact legal framework for this is absolutely secondary, and certainly not for someone as ignorant about the "law" as yourself to ponder.

There is no grey area to what is rape and not rape. In most countries, that's consent. Whether legally the rapists gets convicted or not, is nothing to do with the medical profession.

If a woman is out having a quiet drink, then is spiked, the rapist is unlikely to get convicted if he can say "she wanted to get drunk".

However, if she goes to an abortion clinic and can get an abortion regardless of whether she's been raped, why would she claim rape?

If the rules are abortion is not ok unless it's rape then it does matter.

If the abortion is allowed with no question ask then rape or no rape it's moot.

Especially when there's punishment for malpractise.

I realiy dont see what's all the big deal about pointing out that it'll be impractical. You either use a week based limitations, or a strict no abortion. All I'm saying is that it's hard to put that regulation into writing.

But sure. I'm done wih this. You all seems to love to jump at anything differing from your opinion.

 

[Carolina Red]

Sure but I just don't think it's the root cause. Men wanna control women in a lot of non American countries as well where abortion is not seen as taboo

Yeah, but we aren’t talking about those countries.

 

[calodo2003]

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[ExoduS]

I think it's unethical to get an abortion in most cases personally but why restrict it for everyone else.

Murder is always wrong and even you probably agree there are cases when abortion is not murder (unless you think if it's a threat to a mom you shouldn't do anything in which case that would be murder)

So how can we decide on those cases or the unique scenarios? Ideally I would want a term limit and then strict doctors permissions beyond that but that limit is difficult for me to decide.

Either way, the complete ban on it is just nonesense I think even pro life person should see that as getting an abortion during the day a baby is delivered. It's that extreme of a view

Thank you for constrictive response. My post is shallow but didn't have more time to elaborate. There are clear cases when abortion should be legal. Woman who is cheated into a pregnancy or raped should have a legal right to terminate the pregnancy. The condition she has found her self in is not what that woman ever wanted. There are other situations: Pregnancy is clearly a health threat to a woman and there is a chance of woman's death if pregnancy continues, or condition of a fetus is diagnosed to have a condition where that person will never have a life without extreme suffering.

Now again I might upset majority of you: I am grappling with the idea that woman should have a sole right to decide what to do with her body in case of a pregnancy. If two people have consensual sex and potential father wants to be a father, I find it extremely cruel that the mother solely can decide to terminate the pregnancy. I get it - my body, my choice, but when does the choice starts? If the sex was consenual, there was always a choice not to have sex or have romantic experience without penis into vagina action (there has to be a better term for vaginal sex than what I just said?).

I apologize for my initial post as I clearly didn't examine some very legitimate cases for abortion.

 

[Ted Lasso]

More proof that Sky isn’t a real person and is just a bot that peels the worst takes off the internet and packages them back up into intelligible waffle.

Yeah the more I've gone back thru this thread I'm realizing I should never have engaged in the first place.

 

[Sky1981]

You're conflating a scientific time limit for normal abortions with an arbitrary time limit for rape induced ones.

Don't forget, quite often rape victims go into major depression and might not realise they are pregnant till much later. Is that woman then forced to go through the trauma of giving birth, adoption or 18 years of parenting a child born of rape? Add more trauma to the trauma victim just because she was traumatised initially?

T

You're conflating a scientific time limit for normal abortions with an arbitrary time limit for rape induced ones.

Don't forget, quite often rape victims go into major depression and might not realise they are pregnant till much later. Is that woman then forced to go through the trauma of giving birth, adoption or 18 years of parenting a child born of rape? Add more trauma to the trauma victim just because she was traumatised initially?

Then allow abortions. I'm all for abortions. I never said it's not ok, up to a certain weeks

Just saying that i personally thinks unplanned pregnancy should be a no since it's just that.. unplanned.

 

[RoadTrip]

Why so cynical? This sort of shooting opinions down are what entrenched people into one side of extreme. Getting your opinion is false boohoo has driven bipartisanship in America they'd vote to spite the other party.

Not everyone has the same sort of moral and standard and culture and background. Maybe for you it's a clear cut. But as history shows that theres no clear cut in everything.

As a man who wants to have kids the thought of parents aborting their kids just because it's a preplanned is not something i believe in

I think it’s not cynical. It’s a fair reaction to your ridiculous position that in cases of rape, it’s a toss up if abortion should be allowed. It’s one of the most vile and disgusting opinions I’ve heard in this thread. I can’t imagine how fecked up my life would have to get before I wasn’t sure if a pregnancy due to rape had the right to be aborted.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

If the rules are abortion is not ok unless it's rape then it does matter.

If the abortion is allowed with no question ask then rape or no rape it's moot.

Especially when there's punishment for malpractise.

I realiy dont see what's all the big deal about pointing out that it'll be impractical. You either use a week based limitations, or a strict no abortion. All I'm saying is that it's hard to put that regulation into writing.

But sure. I'm done wih this. You all seems to love to jump at anything differing from your opinion.

But why should it be unless the fetus was viable instantly? Until its viable, it is a growth on a woman. Not every flower becomes a fruit and not all fruit becomes ripe.

 

[hasanejaz88]

I would only have an issue with late term pregnancies, at the point where the baby can survive outside the mother's womb. Abortions before that I think should be allowed.

I like how Germany does it where they require you to go through counseling before finalizing the abortion, but late term abortions are not allowed (unless it is detrimental to the health of the mother).

 

[ExoduS]

The evolution of the philosopher:

I had few beers last night and decided to be a bit of an asshole.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

T


Then allow abortions. I'm all for abortions. I never said it's not ok, up to a certain weeks

Just saying that i personally thinks unplanned pregnancy should be a no since it's just that.. unplanned.

Who are you to decide with what a woman does with a growth on her body? There is no being before that point, just the potential of one. Should all men stop masturbating then? What about wet dreams? Losing millions of potential beings every time.

 

[hellhunter]

I had few beers last night and decided to be a bit of an asshole.

Mission accomplished

 

[Sky1981]

But why should it be unless the fetus was viable instantly? Until its viable, it is a growth on a woman. Not every flower becomes a fruit and not all fruit becomes ripe.

That's back to square 1. Abortion yes or no.

We're going back on forth on why abortion is ok. And why some people think it's not ok. And at what point of time that it's a baby and not a fetus.

And again. I'm actually saying that up to a certain time it's acceptable to abort.

 

[cafecillos]

I'm done wih this

It's for the best. Leave your "legal" concerns for someone who knows what they are talking about and stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

That's back to square 1. Abortion yes or no.

We're going back on forth on why abortion is ok. And why some people think it's not ok. And at what point of time that it's a baby and not a fetus.

And again. I'm actually saying that up to a certain time it's acceptable to abort.

Well, that's very magnanimous of you to accept woman getting to abort. Very decent of you.

 

[Sky1981]

It's for the best. Leave your "legal" concerns for someone who knows what they are talking about and stop embarrassing yourself.

You mean the lawmaker? Supreme court?

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Thank you for constrictive response. My post is shallow but didn't have more time to elaborate. There are clear cases when abortion should be legal. Woman who is cheated into a pregnancy or raped should have a legal right to terminate the pregnancy. The condition she has found her self in is not what that woman ever wanted. There are other situations: Pregnancy is clearly a health threat to a woman and there is a chance of woman's death if pregnancy continues, or condition of a fetus is diagnosed to have a condition where that person will never have a life without extreme suffering.

Now again I might upset majority of you: I am grappling with the idea that woman should have a sole right to decide what to do with her body in case of a pregnancy. If two people have consensual sex and potential father wants to be a father, I find it extremely cruel that the mother solely can decide to terminate the pregnancy. I get it - my body, my choice, but when does the choice starts? If the sex was consenual, there was always a choice not to have sex or have romantic experience without penis into vagina action (there has to be a better term for vaginal sex than what I just said?).

I apologize for my initial post as I clearly didn't examine some very legitimate cases for abortion.

Why would anyone engage with you in debate after that fecking post yesterday?

 

[Schmiznurf]

Anyone against abortion is a repugnant human being, and calling them human is a stretch. It is absolutely necessary in a lot of situations.

It's amazing that a country with no healthcare, no mandatory maternity leave and who allows its children to die on a regular basis without introducing measures to stop it, would want more children regardless of the physical and memtal cost on the mother.

 

[cafecillos]

You mean the lawmaker? Supreme court?

You wrote you were done with this.