African teams in Qatar

[eire-red]

Wonder what this result will do for African football in the future. Previously, I always felt African teams relied on helter-skelter type football, but I think the teams this tournament have been well organised and akin to more modern management.

I love an underdog story. Imagine Morocco vs Croatia in the final, with one team guaranteed for eternal glory. Might not be the best footballing spectacle, mind.

 

[steve zizou]

Disappointed in Portugal, but doesn’t change anything regarding CAF being allocated too many spots next time

So what's going to change it? I'm sure if you gave Europe 5 teams and Africa 13, there'd be more African teams getting into the semis and there'd be more variety of teams as well.

 

[BorisManUtd]

Wow, incredible achievement, well done Morocco. Ghana were as close as possible in 2010 but didn't expect any African team to reach semis tbh.

 

[Kopral Jono]

Wonder what this result will do for African football in the future. Previously, I always felt African teams relied on helter-skelter type football, but I think the teams this tournament have been well organised and akin to more modern management.

I love an underdog story. Imagine Morocco vs Croatia in the final, with one team guaranteed for eternal glory. Might not be the best footballing spectacle, mind.

Morocco, correct me if I'm wrong, is one African country that has done really well to convince players of Moroccan descent born and bred in Europe to represent its national team and whatever happens from now they've achieved something special. Imagine, say, Nigeria doing the same. We could be looking at a Musiala, Osimhen and Saka front three.

 

[Rood]

Amazing for Morocco and the whole continent

Especially since 2 of their big defence were injured (Mazraoui and Aguard) plus then General Saiss limps out - if all those are missing for the semi then they have no chance

Huge performance from the midfield of Amrabat and Ounahi

Only dark mark was the niave Cheddira getting a red - but he's useless so no big loss for the next game

 

[Scandi Red]

Previously, I always felt African teams relied on helter-skelter type football, but I think the teams this tournament have been well organised and akin to more modern management.

I agree with this. Africa always produces a lot of top players, but they tend to be scattered around the continent. The teams have good players, but are poorly organized. I feel that Asia has the opposite problem. The teams there are well-drilled but lack star power.

 

[eire-red]

Morocco, correct me if I'm wrong, is one African country that has done really well to convince players of Moroccan descent born and bred in Europe to represent its national team and whatever happens from now they've achieved something special. Imagine, say, Nigeria doing the same. We could be looking at a Musiala, Osimhen and Saka front three.

That's a very good point, thanks. Imagine what that French team would look like if that happened as you said, and many other nations I'm sure. But France comes to mind for starters.

 

[kouroux]

Amazing for Morocco and the whole continent

Especially since 2 of their big defence were injured (Mazraoui and Aguard) plus then General Saiss limps out - if all those are missing for the semi then they have no chance

Huge performance from the midfield of Amrabat and Ounahi

Only dark mark was the niave Cheddira getting a red - but he's useless so no big loss for the next game

Cheddira not playing might be a big boost for them

 

[huyn]

Morocco, correct me if I'm wrong, is one African country that has done really well to convince players of Moroccan descent born and bred in Europe to represent its national team and whatever happens from now they've achieved something special. Imagine, say, Nigeria doing the same. We could be looking at a Musiala, Osimhen and Saka front three.

That's true. The french players (Boufal and Saïss) probably wouldnt make the France squad, but Hakimi would start for Spain and most of their Netherlands born or Belgium born players would make the Netherlands/Belgium squad and probably would start as well. In addition, Morocco has a few excellent acadamies with the Mohammed VI academy and Wydad Casablanca academy that produce a lot of good players.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Morocco, correct me if I'm wrong, is one African country that has done really well to convince players of Moroccan descent born and bred in Europe to represent its national team and whatever happens from now they've achieved something special. Imagine, say, Nigeria doing the same. We could be looking at a Musiala, Osimhen and Saka front three.

Ghana did this as well a bit, quite late too, after they’d qualified. Lamptey and Williams for example. Looked the better team for it in the World Cup.

 

[Kopral Jono]

That's true. The french players (Boufal and Saïss) probably wouldnt make the France squad, but Hakimi would start for Spain and most of their Netherlands born or Belgium born players would make the Netherlands/Belgium squad and probably would start as well. In addition, Morocco has a few excellent acadamies with the Mohammed VI academy and Wydad Casablanca academy that produce a lot of good players.

Not to mention Bono, who I read is actually Canadian!

 

[Cal?]

So what's going to change it? I'm sure if you gave Europe 5 teams and Africa 13, there'd be more African teams getting into the semis and there'd be more variety of teams as well.

I don’t agree, only 2 out of 5 CAF teams made the KO stage compared to 8 out of 13 UEFA teams.

Also, are you going to ignore the past 2 decades of general European dominance and go with 1 shock result to justify giving CAF 9+ slots next time?

 

[huyn]

Not to mention Bono, who I read is actually Canadian!

Yea he could have played for Canada but unlike the other players, it would have been up to Canada to recruit him!

 

[steve zizou]

I don’t agree, only 2 out of 5 CAF teams made the KO stage compared to 8 out of 13 UEFA teams.

Also, are you going to ignore the past 2 decades of general European dominance and go with 1 shock result to justify giving CAF 9+ slots next time?

The qualified ratios are still respectable for African countries. There's no surprise that countries that qualify for world cup often, also do better in the competition. Even in club football you see this with the champions league. So for African teams to do well in World Cups they need to be given opportunities to play in the competition in the first place. The lack of qualification opportunity (5 slots for 54 countries) on the continent means African teams build little momentum on past WC experiences. If not for the slot increasing for the WC, I wouldn't have been surprised if Morocco failed to qualify for the next one. Also hasn't helped that the best African teams are always in groups of death when they qualify.

Regarding "European dominance" it's only really the same 5 countries that consistently do well in the WC the rest are there for the numbers just like everyone else

 

[Scandi Red]

Regarding "European dominance" it's only really the same 5 countries that consistently do well in the WC the rest are there for the numbers just like everyone else

European football arrogance knows no bounds, unfortunately. If certain fans could choose then they'd simply invite Brazil and Argentina to the Euros and call it the World Cup

 

[ericPSG]

It’s the US level of arrogance. When the name the NBA champion as world champion

 

[Red the Bear]

Always get giddy to see the African teams doing well and to be on the cusp of making so much history.

What a feeling it must be and I can't say it wasn't well deserved either, freakishly solid in defense and appropriatingly effective in counter.

 

[Rudi G]

European football arrogance knows no bounds, unfortunately. If certain fans could choose then they'd simply invite Brazil and Argentina to the Euros and call it the World Cup

I would for sure be interested in a competition featuring the best which by the way does not make me arrogant nor certain. Get better.

 

[Lay]

I would for sure be interested in a competition featuring the best which by the way does not make me arrogant nor certain. Get better.

Not sure I could stomach more European teams. Poland, Wales, Serbia, Switzerland, Belgium.. Ugh..

 

[Scandi Red]

I would for sure be interested in a competition featuring the best which by the way does not make me arrogant nor certain. Get better.

The problem is that there are generally at most 10 European nations that deserve to be a bit cocky and take world cup participation for granted. But because the power center is in Europe the arrogance spreads to countries that aren't that special.

To put it another way: the best countries in North America, Africa and Asia would also do well in Europe. They wouldn't be the level of France or Germany, but that's also true for most European countries.

 

[Cal?]

The qualified ratios are still respectable for African countries. There's no surprise that countries that qualify for world cup often, do better in the competition. Even in club football you see this with the champions league. So for African teams to do well in World Cups they need to be given opportunities to play in the competition in the first place. The lack of qualification opportunity (5 slots for 54 countries) on the continent means African teams build little momentum on past WC experiences. If not for the slot increasing for the WC, I wouldn't have been surprised if Morocco failed to qualify for the next one. Also hasn't helped that the best African teams are always in groups of death when they qualify.

Regarding "European dominance" it's only really the same 5 countries that consistently do well in the WC the rest are there for the numbers just like everyone else

Just because there are lots of countries does not mean they should get more spots, do you seriously think the likes 30+ teams ranked over 100 in Fifa rankings should have a good chance of making the WC? By comparison UEFA only has 14 teams outside the top 100, and many of those have a small population than Trafford.

The reigning European champions failed to qualify for this one (and the last one), they lost so they shouldn't be there, what's the problem?

Regarding European dominance:

2022: 8/16, 5/8, 2/4
2018: 10/16, 6/8, 4/4
2014: 6/16, 4/8, 2/4
2010: 6/16, 3/8, 3/4
2006: 10/16, 6/8, 4/4

UEFA have consistantly overperformed compared to their allocaiton and won every world cup in the last 2 decades.

 

[Cal?]

Not sure I could stomach more European teams. Poland, Wales, Serbia, Switzerland, Belgium.. Ugh..

Qatar, Saudi, Tunisia, Cameroon and the likes, yay...

 

[Cal?]

The problem is that there are generally at most 10 European nations that deserve to be a bit cocky and take world cup participation for granted. But because the power center is in Europe the arrogance spreads to countries that aren't that special.

To put it another way: the best countries in North America, Africa and Asia would also do well in Europe. They wouldn't be the level of France or Germany, but that's also true for most European countries.

One way to fixing this issue would be for every confederation to play off against UEFA for those final places, I'm convinced the 17th-24th best UEFA sides are better than the 7th-10th sides from CAF, AFC & Concacaf; but at the moment there is no way to tell.

 

[Pintu]

Qatar, Saudi, Tunisia, Cameroon and the likes, yay...

Nigeria, Cote d'Ivoire, Algeria, Mali, Egypt (None of them made it)... or Poland, Wales, Serbia, Switzerland (all made it and stank the place...)?

 

[the_cliff]

One way to fixing this issue would be for every confederation to play off against UEFA for those final places, I'm convinced the 17th-24th best UEFA sides are better than the 7th-10th sides from CAF, AFC & Concacaf; but at the moment there is no way to tell.

Well the 7th and 11th rated CAF teams were in the world cup this year. Ghana and Cameroon, Portugal struggled to beat Ghana and Switzerland/Serbia struggled to beat Cameroon so I highly doubt that.

Portugal are rated 7th in the Euro zone, Switzerland 11th and Serbia 13th for comparison. If you're convinced that Scotland (20th), Austria(18th), Romania(24th) etc would beat Ghana (11th ranked in Africa) and Cameroon (7th) then I'd say you're delusional.

Again as mentioned before Africa has a decent amount of quality in numbers compared to AFC and Concacaf etc...

 

[Cal?]

Well the 7th and 11th rated CAF teams were in the world cup this year. Ghana and Cameroon, Portugal struggled to beat Ghana and Switzerland/Serbia struggled to beat Cameroon so I highly doubt that.

Again as mentioned before Africa has a decent amount of quality in numbers compared to AFC and Concacaf etc...

Cameroon got 1 draw out of 2 matches against 11th & 13th placed Uefa sides in the WC, hardly justifying anything. Are Switzerland/Serbia much better than the slightly lower ranked sides in Europe like Norway, Turkey, etc?

Ghana lost to the only Uefa team they played.

Anyway the point is having everyone playoff UEFA will help balance the issue, they could get even more places if they beat the European sides (which you seem to think would be a great idea), so what's not to like?

 

[adexkola]

One way to fixing this issue would be for every confederation to play off against UEFA for those final places, I'm convinced the 17th-24th best UEFA sides are better than the 7th-10th sides from CAF, AFC & Concacaf; but at the moment there is no way to tell.

But what marginal utility are you deriving by including the 17th-24th best UEFA sides at the expense of the 7th-10th CAF/AFC sides? Not much.

If you really enjoy watching UEFA sides that much, there's the Euros! Surely that's the pinnacle of football for you, all those quality European sides...

 

[Cal?]

But what marginal utility are you deriving by including the 17th-24th best UEFA sides at the expense of the 7th-10th CAF/AFC sides? Not much.

If you really enjoy watching UEFA sides that much, there's the Euros! Surely that's the pinnacle of football for you, all those quality European sides...

What marginal utility are you deriving by including the 7th-10th CAF/AFC sides ahead of 17th-24th best UEFA sides? Also not much.

If you really enjoy watching CAF/AFC sides that much, there's the African Cup of Nations & Asian Cup!

See what I did?

 

[adexkola]

What marginal utility are you deriving by including the 7th-10th CAF/AFC sides ahead of 17th-24th best UEFA sides? Also not much.

If you really enjoy watching CAF/AFC sides that much, there's the African Cup of Nations & Asian Cup!

See what I did?

No, because I'm not arguing against the current or future allocation of sides at the WC. I appreciate the fact that

1. It's a mixture of teams from all across the world
2. If you're a top 10 European side, you'll make it. If you're a top 5 African side you'll make it.
3. I'm not losing much sleep about the 24th European side not making it. You're probably the only guy apart from Turkish fans that's devastated that they aren't in this WC.

 

[Scandi Red]

I'm convinced the 17th-24th best UEFA sides are better than the 7th-10th sides from CAF, AFC & Concacaf

I'm not. And even if they are, the difference could be marginal.

Anyway the point is having everyone playoff UEFA will help balance the issue, they could get even more places if they beat the European sides (which you seem to think would be a great idea), so what's not to like?

The reason for the expansion(according to FIFA anyways) is more inclusivity. Having it all come down to a few play-off games every 4 years would be kind of flawed as well. I'm totally in love with Morocco like everyone else, but are they better than Brazil? This is the nature of international football.

How many spots are Europe looking to get in the new format? Europe already gets half(!) the spots in the 32 team format.

 

[Cal?]

No, because I'm not arguing against the current or future allocation of sides at the WC. I appreciate the fact that

1. It's a mixture of teams from all across the world
2. If you're a top 10 European side, you'll make it. If you're a top 5 African side you'll make it.
3. I'm not losing much sleep about the 24th European side not making it. You're probably the only guy apart from Turkish fans that's devastated that they aren't in this WC.

1 Currently it's mixture of teams from all across the world, my point is that allocation is so unfair in 4 years time there will be a lot of cannon folders like Qatar who just turn up and lose every game.
2. Agreed
3. I think the 24th European side are better than the 8th best Asian side, the 7th best Concacaf side (and New Zealand), the WC should be merit based to some extent.

 

[Cal?]

I'm not. And even if they are, the difference could be marginal.

The reason for the expansion(according to FIFA anyways) is more inclusivity. Having it all come down to a few play-off games every 4 years would be kind of flawed as well. I'm totally in love with Morocco like everyone else, but are they better than Brazil? This is the nature of international football.

How many spots are Europe looking to get in the new format? Europe already gets half(!) the spots in the 32 team format.

The reason for the expansion is a blatant cash grab, everyone knows how ridiculous these 3 team groups will be.

Europe current have 13/32, roughly 40%, but in 4 years, Europe will have only 16/48 (33%). The rest of the world are getting rewarded for failure.

 

[the_cliff]

Cameroon got 1 draw out of 2 matches against 11th & 13th placed Uefa sides in the WC, hardly justifying anything. Are Switzerland/Serbia much better than the slightly lower ranked sides in Europe like Norway, Turkey, etc?

Ghana lost to the only Uefa team they played.

Anyway the point is having everyone playoff UEFA will help balance the issue, they could get even more places if they beat the European sides (which you seem to think would be a great idea), so what's not to like?

Yes. Turkey was in the same group as Switzerland in the Euros and finished bottom with 0 points and -7 goal difference.

I think you don't understand the fight for world cup spots in Africa and how tight it is. You just need to watch highlights of Algeria-Cameroon (Who dominated Cameroon in both legs of the qualifiers only to concede last second and get knocked out) or Tunisia - Mali (Tunisia who were very lucky to score a freak goal and qualify) to see how fine and small the margins are in Africa. If you were arguing about concacaf and the AFC I would agree but I think you're underrating the quality and depth in African football at the moment.

Just look at the midfield Mali have at their disposal for example and then compare it to a Scotland or even a Wales and get back to me.

 

[Cal?]

Yes. Turkey was in the same group as Switzerland in the Euros and finished bottom with 0 points and -7 goal difference.

I think you don't understand the fight for world cup spots in Africa and how tight it is. You just need to watch highlights of Algeria-Cameroon (Who dominated Cameroon in both legs of the qualifiers only to concede last second and get knocked out) or Tunisia - Mali (Tunisia who were very lucky to score a freak goal and qualify) to see how fine and small the margins are in Africa. If you were arguing about concacaf and the AFC I would agree but I think you're underrating the quality and depth in African football at the moment.

Just look at the midfield Mali have at their disposal for example and then compare it to a Scotland or even a Wales and get back to me.

I don't follow African football too closely and will take your word for it, but the fact remains that CAF have never had a semi-finalist until a few hours ago.

I'm talking about UEFA teams getting unfairly penalized by the allocation in general for the next WC, perhaps African do deserve a few more, the same cannot be said of AFC or Concacaf.

AFC have 4-5 decent teams and the dropoff after that is HUGE, Qatar are actually decent outside that top group and we all saw how they faired against some not so great sides in the last few weeks.

Italy, Belgium & Denmark all looked great at the Euro back then and France went out early.

 

[Scandi Red]

The rest of the world are getting rewarded for failure.

That's one way of seeing it.

But what happens when the rest of the world inevitably starts catching up? The way the FIFA ranking system works is that you get disproportionately rewarded for being in close vicinity to other strong nations. That is why mediocre European nations can climb quite high in the ranking despite not being all that special. All it takes is a freak win and a few tactical draws.

I don't think Europe can complain too much when they have 16 guaranteed spots, despite being less than 10% of the world population.

 

[the_cliff]

I don't follow African football too closely and will take your word for it, but the fact remains that CAF have never had a semi-finalist until a few hours ago.

I'm talking about UEFA teams getting unfairly penalized by the allocation in general for the next WC, perhaps African do deserve a few more, the same cannot be said of AFC or Concacaf.

AFC have 4-5 decent teams and the dropoff after that is HUGE, Qatar are actually decent outside that top group and we all saw how they faired against some not so great sides in the last few weeks.

I understand where you're coming from and I do agree with you that there shouldn't be more places for any Association if there will be a drop in quality as it wouldn't make the football better. All I'm saying is that if they do decide to increase the amount of teams in the world cup, Africa deserves more spots.

I'm happy with a 32 team world cup, so long as Africa change the way of qualifying instead of one off knockout games randomly drawn amongst the top sides, it makes no sense....

 

[Cal?]

That's one way of seeing it.

But what happens when the rest of the world inevitably starts catching up? The way the FIFA ranking system works is that you get disproportionately rewarded for being in close vicinity to other strong nations. That is why mediocre European nations can climb quite high in the ranking despite not being all that special. All it takes is a freak win and a few tactical draws.

I don't think Europe can complain too much when they have 16 guaranteed spots, despite being less than 10% of the world population.

Well, the allocation should be reviewed after each tournament, and having more intercontinental playoffs will ensure more fairness

Population has nothing to do with it, otherwise China & India are getting guaranteed spots

 

[Cal?]

I understand where you're coming from and I do agree with you that there shouldn't be more places for any Association if there will be a drop in quality as it wouldn't make the football better. All I'm saying is that if they do decide to increase the amount of teams in the world cup, Africa deserves more spots.

I'm happy with a 32 team world cup, so long as Africa change the way of qualifying instead of one off knockout games randomly drawn amongst the top sides, it makes no sense....

I agree 32 is a right balance, in terms of a great format and enough spots for most decent sides.

48 will be bad with the 3 team groups.

I’m convinced the extra AFC and Concacaf teams next time will be cannon folders, let’s see if you’re right that CAF can provide more competitive teams

 

[Scandi Red]

I’m convinced the extra AFC and Concacaf teams next time will be cannon folders, let’s see if you’re right that CAF can provide more competitive teams

I'm also convinced that if we gave those extra spots to European teams they'd also be cannon fodder.

I agree that the world cup should remain a 32 team tournament, though. But if it's going to be expanded, then the whole world should be included in this expansion.

 

[Cal?]

I'm also convinced that if we gave those extra spots to European teams they'd also be cannon fodder.

I agree that the world cup should remain a 32 team tournament, though. But if it's going to be expanded, then the whole world should be included in this expansion.

I’m convinced you won’t find a European side as bad as Qatar was this time.

Agree that the whole world should be included, but why the big change of ratio next time?