Alabama outlaws abortion

[Djemba-Djemba]

I remember growing up thinking the Republican party was their Tories and the Democrat party was like our Labour party.

But it doesn't really work like that, a lot of democrats would be considered right wing and conservative if they had those beliefs over here.

And a lot of republicans are completely insane in the way you don't really get over here.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I mean, what's the point of him being a Dem if he's practically a Republican?
Anyway, I was listening to a podcast some weeks back where they were talking about Red Dems. Apparently, a lot of people that vote Democrat in America are very conservative and the way they are seen internationally has been skewed by the Urban Democrats we see and hear all the time. In short, the urban and rural Dem voter is actually very different in the way they think. Especially Dem voters in the middle areas and south
I was like the party needs to split then because until then, the party is useless.

It's basically admitting that he's in it to further himself and not to actually act on his beliefs.

For all our whinging about the republicans, most democrats are nearly as shite.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Someone asked me a question about my wife and sister, I answered it, then you mocked me for answering it. I didn't invoke them as an argument like you're still implying. Stop lying.

I know I'm playing the man here and derailing the thread. Apologies mods and I'll take the points.

The staggering hypocrisy of you, Dave, accusing other posters of lying and being uncivil given your behaviour in this thread is truly breathtaking.

Why you continue to pretend that you have any interest in having an adult conversation regarding this serious and sensitive matter is difficult to understand.

Your opening post in the thread was deliberately provocative and, when people reacted to that with anger and inappropriately for a civil discourse, you then pretended to be horrified and have continued to bring it up over and over again, as if it were the gravest of wounds you received, any time someone attempts to respond to your deliberately misleading and belligerent posts.

Why not debate like an adult and try to understand different viewpoints and interpret facts rather than, entirely deliberately, misrepresent a tragic incident in Eire in an attempt to bolster your moral crusade? That last action, misrepresenting the intent of medical professionals (in fact stating they aborted through some kind of malicious intent with the use if the word trickery) and playing a tragic scenario for point scoring on an internet forum, is, at least, as concerning as the post you continue, days later, to bring up.

 

[Dave89]

There you go, I object to being literally threatened with rape and I'm just not being adult enough.

And a general life tip, apologising before doing something renders the apology invalid. But don't worry, the mods have your back in this pile on.

 

[KirkDuyt]

There you go, I object to being literally threatened with rape and I'm just not being adult enough.

And a general life tip, apologising before doing something renders the apology invalid. But don't worry, the mods have your back in this pile on.

Are you planning to write an apology to the doctors you accuse of deliberately tricking people into having an abortion? I doubt it, since it's just a throwaway statement on the internet.

You're being a bit of a snowflake mate. The comment was deleted, get over it.

 

[oates]

There you go, I object to being literally threatened with rape and I'm just not being adult enough.

And a general life tip, apologising before doing something renders the apology invalid. But don't worry, the mods have your back in this pile on.

I don't think the mods are in the habit of reporting back what adjudications have taken place. That's none of our business and between them and any potential warnings and 'warnees'. Just the way it is or we'd have bedlam going on. Just move on and try to get the discussion back on track.

 

[Dave89]

I don't think the mods are in the habit of reporting back what adjudications have taken place. That's none of our business and between them and any potential warnings and 'warnees'. Just the way it is or we'd have bedlam going on. Just move on and try to get the discussion back on track.

I'd love to oates, but it's nothing but personal attacks here. I get called a rape apologist and snide accusations are made about my relationship with female relatives, then a mod proudly states that multiple mods ignored it. Wibble attacks me, calls me a liar, so I point out his lie, so his lapdog posts an essay to defend him. Someone threatens me with rape, then I'm called a snowflake (unironically) for not liking that. If I did half of what the pro-choice people have done here I'd be banned.

 

[Halftrack]

There you go, I object to being literally threatened with rape and I'm just not being adult enough.

And a general life tip, apologising before doing something renders the apology invalid. But don't worry, the mods have your back in this pile on.

After literally stating that doctors maliciously misled a couple into having an abortion, you've lost whatever moral high-ground you thought you had.

A dude said something way out of line, but that's on him. It has nothing to do with the rest of us. You trying to use it as a shield against any and all criticism you get is frankly pathetic.

I challenge you to walk back and apologise for your disgusting lie about the doctors. They aren't members here, but aside from that, what you did is as bad as the rape-wish/threat against you.

 

[oates]

I'd love to oates, but it's nothing but personal attacks here. I get called a rape apologist and snide accusations are made about my relationship with female relatives, then a mod proudly states that multiple mods ignored it. Wibble attacks me, calls me a liar, so I point out his lie, so his lapdog posts an essay to defend him. Someone threatens me with rape, then I'm called a snowflake (unironically) for not liking that. If I did half of what the pro-choice people have done here I'd be banned.

Then the mods have discussed your issue and made their decisions so either accept that and move on or leave the thread but you've stated your issues enough I would have thought.

 

[Dave89]

After literally stating that doctors maliciously misled a couple into having an abortion, you've lost whatever moral high-ground you thought you had.

A dude said something way out of line, but that's on him. It has nothing to do with the rest of us. You trying to use it as a shield against any and all criticism you get is frankly pathetic.

I challenge you to walk back and apologise for your disgusting lie about the doctors. They aren't members here, but aside from that, what you did is as bad as the rape-wish/threat against you.

And if my language is really an issue, I'll agree that "doctors tricked" should have been "health system, in massive breach of trust, misled with false information". I'll also apologise for the language causing the point to be missed.

Now I'll just wait and surely the poster who wished rape upon me, the poster who called me a rape apologist, and the two posters who mocked me for answering a third poster's question will correct similarly.

In a different post I also stated I found it unlikely that any individual doctor would be to blame.

In the interest of balance, are you going to seek an apology from the posters who have stated, without knowing the full facts or advice given, that the couple affected in this tragedy ignored medical advice?

edit - just realised I somehow cut off part of your quote, that was accidental and now corrected.

 

[Dave89]

Then the mods have discussed your issue and made their decisions so either accept that and move on or leave the thread but you've stated your issues enough I would have thought.

I would have thought that too, but if I'm being accused of incivility I reserve the right to show what I'm dealing with.

 

[oates]

I would have thought that too, but if I'm being accused of incivility I reserve the right to show what I'm dealing with.

You've done that more than a few times. I think your choices are to let it go over your head, leave the thread or carry on repeating your complaints and continually detract from the topic and leave the mods thinking that they might as well thread ban you or worse. Then your opinions won't be heard on the topic.

 

[Dave89]

You've done that more than a few times. I think your choices are to let it go over your head, leave the thread or carry on repeating your complaints and continually detract from the topic and leave the mods thinking that they might as well thread ban you or worse. Then your opinions won't be heard on the topic.

That's a fair comment, but I'd like to think that the other posters carrying on personal attacks at me will face a thread ban too.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

That's a fair comment, but I'd like to think that the other posters carrying on personal attacks at me will face a thread ban too.

They did face consequences, didn't they?

The irony of you continuing to go on like this, and harking back to those comments that were dealt with, and talking about a smear campaign against the couple involved when you jumped into this thread in bad faith AND leapt feet first into a smear of the doctors when you brought the story into the thread.

 

[Dave89]

They did face consequences, didn't they?

The irony of you continuing to go on like this, and harking back to those comments that were dealt with, and talking about a smear campaign against the couple involved when you jumped into this thread in bad faith AND leapt feet first into a smear of the doctors when you brought the story into the thread.

Consequences? A mod proudly stated they saw nothing wrong with the first personal attacks I reported. Many of those made since have stood.

Is there an irony then also in everyone rushing to criticise my comments on the doctors, while ignoring other posters' smears on the couple's decision? Or just plain old double standards? Why are posters only correcting my comments and letting groundless speculation that would move the blame to the couple go unchallenged?

Look, I don't mind being ganged up on in terms of having a minority opinion and being outnumbered in my belief. But what's happening here is that multiple posters are making the same peronsal attacks against me, and my choices are to either let them go unchallenged or be criticised for repeating myself to each new member of the pile on. How's that a civil debate?

 

[Halftrack]

In a different post I also stated I found it unlikely that any individual doctor would be to blame.

First of all, you only apologised for the language used, not the baldfaced lie that you told. Secondly, you're still implying that it was done on purpose. Changing it from the doctors to the "health system", and from tricking to "misled with false information" (which is, hilariously enough, basically the dictionary definition of 'tricking', and is also still a disgusting lie) doesn't do much. Someone involved with the case must have done the misleading, and one has to assume it was a doctor. So you're still, albeit in a more roundabout way, saying that doctors tricked the couple into having an unneeded abortion.

A test with a 0.15% false positive rate came back positive, and this was presented to the couple. We don't know whether the doctors advised for or against abortion before the full test results came back (doctors generally advice against it), but no one purposefully gave them false information.

In the interest of balance, are you going to seek an apology from the posters who have stated, without knowing the full facts or advice given, that the couple affected in this tragedy ignored medical advice?

Generally speaking, expecting parents are advised against acting before all test results are back, unless there's corroborating evidence. People are probably assuming that said advice was given, and that the parents went against it. It's not an unfair assumption (your claim is orders of magnitude worse), but it should not be presented as the truth, as some here have done.

You're a grown man, so I shouldn't have to say this, but: Two wrongs doesn't make a right. Deflecting by pointing out that others have also done wrong is what children do.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

@Dave89 has form for drawing fantastical narratives from news stories to fit his agenda.

This was his recent take on those 4 British soldiers being caught using a picture of Corbyn for target practice.

Plotting, and training, to kill the leader of the opposition is a terrorist offence and should be treated as such. Any less and it shows where your banana republic is going by sanctioning this.

They're in an overseas camp training to kill a prominent British politician. Were there not calls from Tories to revoke the citizenship of people like that?

I wouldn’t get too worked up about it.

 

[KirkDuyt]

@Dave89 has form for drawing fantastical narratives from news stories to fit his agenda.

This was his recent take on those 4 British soldiers being caught using a picture of Corbyn for target practice.





I wouldn’t get too worked up about it.

 

[berbatrick]

I mean, what's the point of him being a Dem if he's practically a Republican?
Anyway, I was listening to a podcast some weeks back where they were talking about Red Dems. Apparently, a lot of people that vote Democrat in America are very conservative and the way they are seen internationally has been skewed by the Urban Democrats we see and hear all the time. In short, the urban and rural Dem voter is actually very different in the way they think. Especially Dem voters in the middle areas and south
I was like the party needs to split then because until then, the party is useless.

OT, but there's a lot more to it than that - most Dem voters, rural and urban, favour economic populism, but it's not what the party gives them.

 

[Sweet Square]

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Really makes you think

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Jim Carrey is way better at this than he was at comedy.

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[Raees]

Jim Carrey is way better at this than he was at comedy.

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Might watch the Sonic film in honour of that

 

[Wibble]

Someone asked me a question about my wife and sister, I answered it, then you mocked me for answering it. I didn't invoke them as an argument like you're still implying. Stop lying.

I didn't mock you. If that is what you think constitutes mocking you are very delicate flower indeed.

And I didn't criticise you answering a question. I criticised the answer itself and the view it conveyed.

 

[calodo2003]

There you go, I object to being literally threatened with rape and I'm just not being adult enough.

And a general life tip, apologising before doing something renders the apology invalid. But don't worry, the mods have your back in this pile on.

Well, basically you have just proven yourself to be a liar who didn’t have the balls to post a link to an article about the situation, you have to expect a certain amount of vitriol.

 

[sullydnl]

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[Cloud7]

I’ve been avoiding this thread as I just knew there would be a lot in here that would get me angry, and reading just the first two pages and the last two pages have been enough to get my blood boiling.

People really don’t realize just how dangerous pregnancy is to a woman. Pre-eclampsia can kill you, antepartum and post partum haemorrhage can kill you. You can get a fecking amniotic fluid embolism with absolutely no warning and die (this happened to someone at work recently and it was fecking tragic). You’re more predisposed to clots that can kill you. These are just the acute things.

Being pregnant can leave you with diabetes permanently when you’re done, and even if it doesn’t you can still be at a permanently increased risk for it. You can get peripartum cardiomyopathy that can leave you with permanent heart damage. You can come out of it with permanent thyroid disease.

These are merely a few things that can happen to a woman during pregnancy, and there are much more. Pregnancy is not something a woman should ever have to go through unless she is absolutely sure that she wants to. It’s scary that in this day and age, people are in support of this kind of backwards stupidity.

 

[Cloud7]

The life of a bag of cells is not worth the life of a living, breathing human. Until a fetus is viable at 24 weeks a woman should have the option to abort at any given point in time without any questions being asked. After this point then you can open the discussion about there being criteria for abortion, such as severe birth abnormalities etc. A pregnancy born of rape or abuse should be allowed to be aborted at any given point in time.

 

[Wibble]

I'd love to oates, but it's nothing but personal attacks here. I get called a rape apologist and snide accusations are made about my relationship with female relatives, then a mod proudly states that multiple mods ignored it. Wibble attacks me, calls me a liar, so I point out his lie, so his lapdog posts an essay to defend him. Someone threatens me with rape, then I'm called a snowflake (unironically) for not liking that. If I did half of what the pro-choice people have done here I'd be banned.

I called you a liar because you deliberateley and willfully made things up to back up your view. Or lied as the rest of us call it.

Nobody deceived or forced anyone in to having an abortion. The abortion occured despite medical advice to wait for the confirmatory test. Not because doctors forced anyone to do anything.

 

[oates]

The life of a bag of cells is not worth the life of a living, breathing human. Until a fetus is viable at 24 weeks a woman should have the option to abort at any given point in time without any questions being asked. After this point then you can open the discussion about there being criteria for abortion, such as severe birth abnormalities etc. A pregnancy born of rape or abuse should be allowed to be aborted at any given point in time.

That's just your opinion though. Sorry to be stating the obvious.

 

[Cloud7]

That's just your opinion though. Sorry to be stating the obvious.

Of course this bit is just my opinion, that’s why I made it a separate post from the factual one about all the health risks to women of pregnancy, which was meant to be my main contribution to the thread. Didn’t want the two to be digested as the same point.

 

[oates]

Of course this bit is just my opinion, that’s why I made it a separate post from the factual one about all the health risks to women of pregnancy, which was meant to be my main contribution to the thread. Didn’t want the two to be digested as the same point.

I appreciate that and I don't want or intend to be argumentative. I know you are a medic and feel you have a special knowledge on the topic and don't decry that but a lot of people are aware of the dangers of pregnancy in these days. In fact I'm sure any man who has a partner who becomes pregnant acquaints themselves with the knowledge or at least concerns themselves with the statistics and worries to some extent.

I wonder though when you say that 'the life of a bag of cells' more delicately put perhaps as a 'foetus' is not worth the life of a 'living breathing human' is any kind of expert opinion when you might consider how valued that life beginning is to a woman who might lose it in miscarriage? Does she and her partner think it isn't worth as much as a delivered baby? The answer isn't important because again, it would just be opinion as mine is but it is equally as valid.

 

[Cloud7]

I appreciate that and I don't want or intend to be argumentative. I know you are a medic and feel you have a special knowledge on the topic and don't decry that but a lot of people are aware of the dangers of pregnancy in these days. In fact I'm sure any man who has a partner who becomes pregnant acquaints themselves with the knowledge or at least concerns themselves with the statistics and worries to some extent.

I wonder though when you say that 'the life of a bag of cells' more delicately put perhaps as a 'foetus' is not worth the life of a 'living breathing human' is any kind of expert opinion when you might consider how valued that life beginning is to a woman who might lose it in miscarriage? Does she and her partner think it isn't worth as much as a delivered baby? The answer isn't important because again, it would just be opinion as mine is but it is equally as valid.

You would think that people are aware of the dangers, but we’ve seen evidence of many an American politician say nonsense about female anatomy before ‘if a woman gets wet while being raped that means she enjoys it, women’s bodies have a way to shut down if they’re being raped’ etc so I don’t find it too hard to think that these lawmakers aren’t fully aware of the risks of it. Ditto for a lot of pro life people who vehemently say that it’s as simple as the woman carrying the child to term and then just putting them up for adoption. These people don’t sound like those who understand the risks either. I’m not speaking about the caf here really, since the general knowledge level on here is higher than most places, but rather when I see these points being tossed out on social media etc.

I agree that for a woman who has been trying for a child, or one that wants to keep her pregnancy, that the fetus is as valuable to her as her own life. My point was aimed at if said woman wants to have an abortion, and we need to look at it from that angle, then for me, no the life of the fetus isn’t worth the same as her own. That’s my opinion. There will never be any black and white agreements on this because it’s such a morally grey area.

What is black and white though is that a lot of women who get pregnant aren’t ready for it, aren’t in a state of mind or a place in their life where they can care for a child adequately, and if they aren’t allowed to access the legal means of termination, then they will resort to other methods, ones that could be much more harmful to them. That or they’re forced to bring a life into the world that may not get the life or love it deserves.

I just don’t believe that this should be illegal. You can’t legislate someone’s body like this, or an event that literally changes your life forever. Women should be free to make this decision of their own accord, for their own reasons.

 

[oates]

You would think that people are aware of the dangers, but we’ve seen evidence of many an American politician say nonsense about female anatomy before ‘if a woman gets wet while being raped that means she enjoys it, women’s bodies have a way to shut down if they’re being raped’ etc so I don’t find it too hard to think that these lawmakers aren’t fully aware of the risks of it. Ditto for a lot of pro life people who vehemently say that it’s as simple as the woman carrying the child to term and then just putting them up for adoption. These people don’t sound like those who understand the risks either. I’m not speaking about the caf here really, since the general knowledge level on here is higher than most places, but rather when I see these points being tossed out on social media etc.

I agree that for a woman who has been trying for a child, or one that wants to keep her pregnancy, that the fetus is as valuable to her as her own life. My point was aimed at if said woman wants to have an abortion, and we need to look at it from that angle, then for me, no the life of the fetus isn’t worth the same as her own. That’s my opinion. There will never be any black and white agreements on this because it’s such a morally grey area.

What is black and white though is that a lot of women who get pregnant aren’t ready for it, aren’t in a state of mind or a place in their life where they can care for a child adequately, and if they aren’t allowed to access the legal means of termination, then they will resort to other methods, ones that could be much more harmful to them. That or they’re forced to bring a life into the world that may not get the life or love it deserves.

I just don’t believe that this should be illegal. You can’t legislate someone’s body like this, or an event that literally changes your life forever. Women should be free to make this decision of their own accord, for their own reasons.

Apart from any worth or value, you see I can bet you've never come across a half-pregnant woman, or one who was perhaps just a little pregnant in your experience or studies, that we agree entirely on the rest but for me I'd rather we find a way to cut down on these unwanted pregnancies of people who aren't ready or prepared for it. We have the technology, it isn't a complicated technology either.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

Apart from any worth or value, you see I can bet you've never come across a half-pregnant woman, or one who was perhaps just a little pregnant in your experience or studies, that we agree entirely on the rest but for me I'd rather we find a way to cut down on these unwanted pregnancies of people who aren't ready or prepared for it. We have the technology, it isn't a complicated technology either.

I'm going to be a bit of a devils advocate here (ironic in the light of what I'm going to say), but removing the voice of religion from this debate would be the best way to leverage the technology to reduce unwanted pregnancy. Religious voices are the single biggest impediment to sex education.

 

[Cloud7]

Apart from any worth or value, you see I can bet you've never come across a half-pregnant woman, or one who was perhaps just a little pregnant in your experience or studies, that we agree entirely on the rest but for me I'd rather we find a way to cut down on these unwanted pregnancies of people who aren't ready or prepared for it. We have the technology, it isn't a complicated technology either.

I have actually! I worked in obgyn for three months, and came across women in pretty much every week of their gestation. Saw tons of miscarriages and threatened miscarriages as well.

We should find a way to cut down on unwanted pregnancies, but the ways exist. They’ve existed for a long time now, but contraception is wholly a personal choice, there isn’t really a way to force people to use it. For example where I live, contraception is offered for free in the form of the pill and condoms, but a lot of people still don’t use it, and I can’t see a way to get around that.

 

[oates]

I'm going to be a bit of a devils advocate here (ironic in the light of what I'm going to say), but removing the voice of religion from this debate would be the best way to leverage the technology to reduce unwanted pregnancy. Religious voices are the single biggest impediment to sex education.

I'm religious, I have nothing against sex education. Don't know a lot about it, the closest I ever got to it was a diagram each of a vagina and a penis, not what you did with it.

But do you have to be religious to be against the death penalty, against unwanted pregnancies? I think that statistically far more people are 'Religious' than not so don't be shutting out the majority eh?

 

[oates]

I have actually! I worked in obgyn for three months, and came across women in pretty much every week of their gestation. Saw tons of miscarriages and threatened miscarriages as well.

We should find a way to cut down on unwanted pregnancies, but the ways exist. They’ve existed for a long time now, but contraception is wholly a personal choice, there isn’t really a way to force people to use it. For example where I live, contraception is offered for free in the form of the pill and condoms, but a lot of people still don’t use it, and I can’t see a way to get around that.

tosh! Were they pregnant or not?

Perhaps we don't have to force people unless they want to make a choice to be pregnant. Why can't it be the other way around? It's a change in mindset not the technology that we need.

 

[Cloud7]

tosh! Were they pregnant or not?

Perhaps we don't have to force people unless they want to make a choice to be pregnant. Why can't it be the other way around? It's a change in mindset not the technology that we need.

Yes mate they were pregnant Many many a pregnant woman

Agreed that a change in mindset would be beneficial, but that’s a much much harder thing to go about doing, but in the meantime outlawing abortion is not going to contribute anything positive to the world at all.

 

[oates]

Yes mate they were pregnant Many many a pregnant woman

Agreed that a change in mindset would be beneficial, but that’s a much much harder thing to go about doing, but in the meantime outlawing abortion is not going to contribute anything positive to the world at all.

I'm not for outlawing Abortion, I'm for changing the Mindset and making a start will see us there sooner than not.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

As if things werent bad enough.

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