it should be high... afterall most of them are in school and so are a lot of the polling stations so they should have no excuse for not turning up
Alex Salmond and Independence
- Thread starter Team Brian GB
- Start date
"Brothers and sisters are natural enemies. Like Englishmen and Scots! Or Welshmen and Scots! Or Japanese and Scots! Or Scots and other Scots! Damn Scots! They ruined Scotland!"
All of the bookies, and close to all of the polls have Labour winning more seats than the Tories at the next election, and Ed being more likely as PM.
Similarly, the closest thing I can find to (desperately needed) British Nate-Silver style polling analysis has two predictions on two sites;
On Electoral Calculus,
Plus this interesting graph:
Each election since 1983 is represented by a two-segment line which shows the state of the major parties in the run-up to the election. The line shows where their poll support was at (a) two years before the election (start of the line), (b) one year before the election (shown by a small dot), and (c) the election result itself (marked with a labelled dot). The average opinion poll support over 2013 is marked with a grey circle.
And on Election Forecast,
Labour are as it stands, more likely than the Tories to be in power at the next election. The problem currently is similar for both parties - they have terrible image issues, and neither look capable of putting together a strong campaign or message to promote before May. The generation after Cameron/ Clegg/ Miliband have an awful mess to clear up.
What would a yes vote have meant for Northern Ireland?
Exactly.
I'm not going to lie, a lot of 16 year olds are pains. Not quite as big pains as 12 year olds, but pains nonetheless.
But saying they should be restricted because they are reckless shows a fundamental misunderstanding on how democracy works. Voting isn't limited to only the 25-60 age group, despite them technically being the best suited to a wide range of experiences. Voting isn't limited to only those who are in jobs, or are home-owners, or are successful.
In a democracy, you want a large range of opinions. You want a large range of experiences, you want the ill and the healthy, from the young to the old, from the rich to the poor, men and women, Black and White and Asian.
And there is already a heavy bias towards the elderly: They are more likely to vote, they live a long time (we have an ageing population) and we already deny the 0-16 year olds the vote. The average age of the UK Population is 39.9 (according to google). The average age of someone who CAN vote is 47.2 (according to my calculations)... and that includes 16 and 17 year olds can vote, and discludes the relative likelihood of the different ages voting.
If the average age of a UK voter is over 50.. It's a good thing and a bad thing. But there are definitely problems because of this.
im of the opinion that not voting should be at least a fine like in Australia (if not a fine and community service) - I would keep the age at 18 though
Although the fine is miniscule. That said the turnout is in the high 90%'s so it works. It is a great idea IMO as you aren't forced to vote, merely forced not to be so lazy as to not show. If you show you can still choose to not vote.
Not much as a similar vote would still be guaranteed to be defeated.
I dont mind if its 18, I just think having a go at 16 year olds is a bit rich. 70 year olds arent allowed to do Jury service in the UK. Granted thats probably to reduce the risk of a Jury member dropping dead, but it does put the average age back to a more normal age.
Thats a brilliant system then.
Sounds good but if Australia is anything to go by it ends up doing feck all apart from costing a bloody fortune and replicating governmental functions left right and center.
Every citizen should have a vote regardless of age. There also shouldn't be a fine because obviously.
exactly - and with all sides saying the great thing about the Scottish referendum was the turn out it seems a great time to trial something like the Australian system here
Im sure my son will be delighted - though at two weeks old Im not convinced he is going to be able to hold the pen to put his x in the box
You get a small fine for not showing up but you aren't forced to put you ballot in the box and you can also not tick anything or spoil your ballot paper. So the argument that it doesn't allow you to abstain is bollocks.
Parents should serve as proxy until children reach a certain age.
The danger is that kids would simply give their parents 2 votes in the majority of cases.
so I get two votes...
or does my wife get one and a half votes and I get one and a half
and if I have 10 kids I have 11 votes... Im not entirely convinced
What's the danger in that? Would encourage more investment on schools at the least.
I'd have no problem with giving the vote to 16 year olds.
Not sure if that is true as people are frequently stupid.
In a democracy, the side in favor of disenfranchisement needs to make the case. The case is usually that they don't have the required intelligence to decide, but we don't apply intelligence tests to other segments of the population so that doesn't work.
Been around the world and found
That only stupid people are breeding
The cretins cloning and feeding
That only stupid people are breeding
The cretins cloning and feeding
What about the argument that forcing someone to engage in an exercise that they don't wish to is a fundamental violation of individual liberty?
They aren't forced to vote. Just forced to turn up.
And Governments limit freedom by law and regulation left right and center so I have zero problem with people being forced to turn up because they can then exercise their right not to vote.
And Governments limit freedom by law and regulation left right and center so I have zero problem with people being forced to turn up because they can then exercise their right not to vote.
Preventing people from abstaining is a different thing altogether.
Governments have legitimate reasons to do so. Want to drive a car? Get a license and follow the rules of the road. Want to own a house? Pay property taxes. Want to vote? Register and stand in line.
Those are legitimate exercise of government power. This is different. People who choose not to vote aren't trying to do something and refusing to play by the rules. They don't want any part of it. And forcing them to perpetuate the farce is a blatant violation of liberty without a legitimate reason to back it up.
Cool. They should announce the spoiled ballot numbers with a lot more enthusiasm. It's a key democratic principle.
Most people don't vote because they are too lazy. The vote is hugely valuable so I have no problem encouraging people to exercise their right to vote. I also have no problem of they they turn up and then exercise their right not to vote.
They do.
Is encouraging people to vote really not a legitimate reason? You are "encouraged" to go to school, to attend Jury service, to take part in a census.
It's a distinction without a difference as they are forced to mill around and symbolically crumpling up a piece of paper. If someone instead decides to stay home and drink coffee, they get a fine. It's ridiculous on its face.
Some enthusiasm. There should be more. People should talk about it more. All the main parties should have part of their manifesto as "to reduce ballot paper spoiling to 20%, or 10%, or 5%"
But then we should also have proportional representation because anything else is stupid, and we don't, so who knows.
The only one that comes with a fine is jury duty, which is also a violation of liberty.
It's hardly conscription is it.
You receive a £5 fine or have to turn up somewhere once every 5 years. If you turn up somewhere, you can help choose the next government, or spoil the paper in protest, or tick "no vote" (they should have this also.
What about their right to not be forced to waste time standing in line to sign a blank piece of paper?
Parents can be fined if their kids dont go to school. I think. And I thought you can be fined or arrested if you do the census wrong or refuse to do it. I thought.
That's not the point. A fine for writing newspaper articles critical of the government is hardly the gulag but it is still a violation of civil rights.
Homeschooling is an option. In the US, census refusals are not prosecuted.