ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

[Sir A1ex]

How about for once you respond to my entire post, A1Dan. I know you don't like doing that when you see something you can't really argue against or defend but give it a go. You might just surprise yourself.

Apologies yet again for having a life... thought I'd get that one in quickly from my phone, but can't be arsed with long arguments on it.

Right, now I've got a minute... The rest of your post was the same tired old nonsense about MUST, but I will respond to the original point about the PIKs and Martin Samuel's comments, which you seem to think not only hold water but somehow clinch the who Glazer argument in your favour.

Firstly, as has been pointed out loads of times in this thread, everybody including "you lot" was expecting them to repay the PIKs from club money, so there's no point pretending this is some disastrous prophecy from Anders that you always knew was wrong. At least he has the balls to hold his hands up and say he got that bit wrong, which is more than you ever do.

As for the idea that it doesn't matter where the money has come from, that's patently ridiculous. They could have paid them off with more PIKs on exactly the same terms for all we know - unlikely, but it illustrates the point. Those who support the Glazers seem to think that the fact the PIKs are paid off is the be-all and end-all, but in reality we don't know if we're any better off / safer at all. Nor is the possibility of the Glazers taking the £75m+ to pay off debts bow a thing of the past... it's more than likely they still owe somebody the money, and it will need repaying at some point.

 

[Plan M]

This thread is too depressing and serious. Can we lock it?

Spoiler

 

[UnitedRoadRed]

Fans will naturally have concerns about the PIKs being paid off, with respect to the source of the money. As long as it takes debt off United, they will be happy. Fans have always had a concern with the way the Glazers run the business with so much debt burdened on it, especially as increases in ticket prices and the ACS seem to be helping to not clear it off that easily. I can't see there being any interesting movement on the debt now until we see what happens to the bond in 2017, so the shit will only hit the fan when transfer windows close and the team looks no better than when it opened.

 

[fishfingers15]

Never mind this 15 man fan forum selected at random.

Who knows who's going to be a part of this forum, and how will we email his questions to? What good is it to us if we don't have say someone like Andersred there? He has an open mind? Or even Ciderman/GCHQ

If we form a new fans group, which is not MUST/IMUSA, but ask questions fairly, isn't it fair to expect Glazers encouraging dialogue?

 

[TheMancRedDevil]

A very loose comment, "a significant majority think they are clueless" Maybe you could show your source for this I would love to see it. The only facts than can be backed up is that MUST is far and away the biggest Manchester United supporters group and recognised by the media as holding the opinons of the ordinary United fan. You should refrain from this anti MUST hysteria especially if you have nothing to back it up

I would strongly suggest that there are, at most, 20,000 people who think MUST are worth backing anymore. I get this figure from the circa 30-40k members in situ pre-Red Knight "join MUST and we'll make a bid" fiasco. Forget this 150k member crap and since all this nonsense, I would suggest that even some of the previously strongly sympathetic to MUST have now had enough of them. There is plenty of evidence of this in this very thread and around the forum in general.

Now, 20k is a significant number but I would suggest that out of a worldwide fanbase of around 70million, it's a significant minority.

Many people might agree in principle with what they have tried to achieve but, in my experience, more and more people have reached/are reaching the conclusion that they're clueless idiots with as much chance of effecting change at Manchester United as I have of becoming the next Prime Minister.

They have shown themselves up time and time again. They're an embarrassment. For facts and figures to back this up, I refer you to the MUST website.

 

[robertsoncrusoe]

Fans will naturally have concerns about the PIKs being paid off, with respect to the source of the money. As long as it takes debt off United, they will be happy. Fans have always had a concern with the way the Glazers run the business with so much debt burdened on it, especially as increases in ticket prices and the ACS seem to be helping to not clear it off that easily. I can't see there being any interesting movement on the debt now until we see what happens to the bond in 2017, so the shit will only hit the fan when transfer windows close and the team looks no better than when it opened.

Right on-
just as it has for the last 4 transfer windows.

 

[anver]

They were all done in that thread

So now we have a club made up of the Glazer Hurrah boys, calling themselves MUFF, and the anti-Glazer boys calling themselves MUST.

Can we call them the Mustards and the Muffarts?

 

[anver]

Are we talking about the same multiple award winning, sports journalist of the year, Martin Samuel here?

And of course the MUST propaganda has proven to be complete nonsense.

All we kept being told by MUST and Anders was that the only way the PIKs could be cleared was by using the club's cash. We were given a cast iron guarantee by them that the club's cash was going to pay off those PIK notes. Anders told us and I quote ''tell your friends, tell your family, tell everyone you know, the Glazers are going to take cash out of the club to pay down the PIKs''.

It didn't happen though did it? David Gill has always maintained that the PIK debt was the Glazers responsibility and he has been totally vindicated by the fact that neither the club's fixed assets or cash were used to pay them off. The club's assets never provided security for the PIK debt, it was always secured against the Glazers shares in the club. They were their responsibility and they've dealt with them.

That's it I'm afraid. People are fed up of the MUST bullshit. Five years on from their infamous claim that they ''confidently predict the Glazers business plan will completely fail within three years leading to a forced sale of the club'' they've been shown up for a second time. They won't fool people again.

It has been pointed out time and again, that the owners' private debt can put the club in jeopardy in the event of a foreclosure against them, because the club is one of their assets. Just harping on that 'the debt has been paid, and mind your own damned business where the money came from' is ridiculous.

MUST has a definite point there, and that is proving to be a major irritant to the owners, and their satellites in this forum.

So, the $220m question: Where did the money come from?

Sale of the owners' private asset/s : fine.

Borrowed from another source at a reduced interest: not good. No change in status, except that the reduced interest is going to thicken the bottom line. But the debt remains, so the sword of Damocles still hangs on the club.

 

[Crerand Legend]

I would strongly suggest that there are, at most, 20,000 people who think MUST are worth backing anymore. I get this figure from the circa 30-40k members in situ pre-Red Knight "join MUST and we'll make a bid" fiasco. Forget this 150k member crap and since all this nonsense, I would suggest that even some of the previously strongly sympathetic to MUST have now had enough of them. There is plenty of evidence of this in this very thread and around the forum in general.

Now, 20k is a significant number but I would suggest that out of a worldwide fanbase of around 70million, it's a significant minority.

Many people might agree in principle with what they have tried to achieve but, in my experience, more and more people have reached/are reaching the conclusion that they're clueless idiots with as much chance of effecting change at Manchester United as I have of becoming the next Prime Minister.

They have shown themselves up time and time again. They're an embarrassment. For facts and figures to back this up, I refer you to the MUST website.

You pulled that 20,000 number out of the sky and those clueless idiots you refer to have managed to keep the Glazers at bay proved by the events of last week. Too much of the anti MUST stuff on here is based on groundless hysteria

 

[Crerand Legend]

It has been pointed out time and again, that the owners' private debt can put the club in jeopardy in the event of a foreclosure against them, because the club is one of their assets. Just harping on that 'the debt has been paid, and mind your own damned business where the money came from' is ridiculous.

MUST has a definite point there, and that is proving to be a major irritant to the owners, and their satellites in this forum.

So, the $220m question: Where did the money come from?

Sale of the owners' private asset/s : fine.

Borrowed from another source at a reduced interest: not good. No change in status, except that the reduced interest is going to thicken the bottom line. But the debt remains, so the sword of Damocles still hangs on the club.

Not as good with figures or words as your goodself Anders but this is what I have been saying and the fact they don't seem to be in a hurry to tell us makes me think it is new borrowed money. They can of course easily prove me wrong

 

[Rood]

We are unlikely to ever find out where the money came from. You can keep asking all you want but you wont get an answer because they have no obligation to give one.


This is exactly the same as Liverpool or any other private club - do you think their fans are given details of the owners' personal debts? No, of course not.

 

[Crerand Legend]

We are unlikely to ever find out where the money came from. You can keep asking all you want but you wont get an answer because they have no obligation to give one.

This is exactly the same as Liverpool, Arsenal or any other club - do you think their fans are given details of the owners' personal debts? No, of course not.

Quite right they don't, so the speculation will continue and gives people like me a tool to beat them with

 

[Red Defence]

Quite right they don't, so the speculation will continue and gives people like me a tool to beat them with

What's the point of wasting time speculating when you may never know the answer.

 

[Rood]

Borrowed from another source at a reduced interest: not good. No change in status, except that the reduced interest is going to thicken the bottom line. But the debt remains, so the sword of Damocles still hangs on the club.

What are you actually worried about?

Borrowed at a reduced interest rate is good whichever way you look at it - of course paid from personal funds would be better but it is unlikely.

In any case, it doesnt look like 'we' will be paying anything of it anyhow - despite the PIK constantly being included in our total debt, the club has not paid one penny towards them - this is a very important point as it completely blows away all the previous theories about club cash being used to pay Glazer personal debt.

 

[peterstorey]

What are you actually worried about?

Borrowed at a reduced interest rate is good whichever way you look at it - of course paid from personal funds would be better but it is unlikely.

In any case, it doesnt look like 'we' will be paying anything of it anyhow - despite the PIK constantly being included in our total debt, the club has not paid one penny towards them - this is a very important point as it completely blows away all the previous theories about club cash being used to pay Glazer personal debt.

Well that's not true, the first tranche were folded into the senior debt and are still being paid for through the bond.

 

[Rood]

Im obviously talking about the new PIK - but then you know that and are just nitpicking!

BTW nice avatar

 

[anver]

What are you actually worried about?

Borrowed at a reduced interest rate is good whichever way you look at it - of course paid from personal funds would be better but it is unlikely.

In any case, it doesnt look like 'we' will be paying anything of it anyhow - despite the PIK constantly being included in our total debt, the club has not paid one penny towards them - this is a very important point as it completely blows away all the previous theories about club cash being used to pay Glazer personal debt.

Its a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. If the debt still remains, then, what is the change in status? What MUST had been saying that club cash may be used to settle, still stands, because the debt is still there.

Lets see how the cash in bank is used this January, or in the summer. I doubt it will be used to buy an established player. May be used to buy some raw meat, and call it 'potential'. Just a bit of window dressing to keep the fans busy wanking, because any new buy brings with it the hope of a 'potential' Ronaldo.

 

[Crerand Legend]

What's the point of wasting time speculating when you may never know the answer.

Well if speculating is a waste of time then 90% of this thread is a waste of time

 

[anver]

We are unlikely to ever find out where the money came from. You can keep asking all you want but you wont get an answer because they have no obligation to give one.


This is exactly the same as Liverpool or any other private club - do you think their fans are given details of the owners' personal debts? No, of course not.

You are quite right there, Rood. They wont answer, and they are not obliged to answer.

They would answer if they had nothing to hide.

 

[Crerand Legend]

Im obviously talking about the new PIK - but then you know that and are just nitpicking!

BTW nice avatar

Just seen that, not bad

 

[phelans shorts]

You pulled that 20,000 number out of the sky and those clueless idiots you refer to have managed to keep the Glazers at bay proved by the events of last week. Too much of the anti MUST stuff on here is based on groundless hysteria

Eh?

That sounds like complete groundless hysteria to me...

 

[Crerand Legend]

Eh?

That sounds like complete groundless hysteria to me...

So the Green and gold campaign passed you by then?

 

[phelans shorts]

So the Green and gold campaign passed you by then?

No, what makes you certain the PIK wouldn't have been paid off anyway?

Also G&G was nothing to do with MUST. HTH.

 

[Red Defence]

Well if speculating is a waste of time then 90% of this thread is a waste of time

You have a point there. Dealing in facts is the way forward.

 

[Crerand Legend]

No, what makes you certain the PIK wouldn't have been paid off anyway?

Also G&G was nothing to do with MUST. HTH.

I don't know correct its all speculation which only one party can clear up which they don't have to if that is what they want. MUST had nothing to do with the Green and Gold? You serious?

 

[phelans shorts]

I don't know correct its all speculation which only one party can clear up which they don't have to if that is what they want. MUST had nothing to do with the Green and Gold? You serious?

The comment you made insinuated it was definately because of MUST, which is just pure bullshit.

Green and gold was hijacked by MUST, this is just an undeniable fact, even Drasdo doesn't claim it's a MUST campaign!

 

[anver]

The comment you made insinuated it was definately because of MUST, which is just pure bullshit.

Green and gold was hijacked by MUST, this is just an undeniable fact, even Drasdo doesn't claim it's a MUST campaign!

Out of curiosity, mate. Whose campaign was it originally?

As for what Drasdo says, I hardly read what he says after Dildogate.

 

[phelans shorts]

Out of curiosity, mate. Whose campaign was it originally?

It was Red Issue IIRC.

 

[Crerand Legend]

The comment you made insinuated it was definately because of MUST, which is just pure bullshit.

Green and gold was hijacked by MUST, this is just an undeniable fact, even Drasdo doesn't claim it's a MUST campaign!

I honestly cannot recall if you are right or not but you cannot say they had nothing to do with it, they played a huge part in it

 

[phelans shorts]

The most MUST did was piggyback it to more people.

 

[Rado_N]

I honestly cannot recall if you are right or not but you cannot say they had nothing to do with it, they played a huge part in it

He didn't say they had nothing to do with it, he said it had nothing to do with them i.e it was not their idea, which it wasn't. It came from a forum iirc.

 

[Crerand Legend]

The most MUST did was piggyback it to more people.

Perhaps but that means they played a huge part in it as they are by far the biggest organisation representing the fans of the club, without their support it could well IMHO have floundered

 

[ciderman9000000]

Perhaps but that means they played a huge part in it as they are by far the biggest organisation representing the fans of the club, without their support it could well IMHO have floundered

Don't forget that MUST forced the Glazers to cave-in over the Rooney issue, that was all MUST too.

 

[Crerand Legend]

Don't forget that MUST forced the Glazers to cave-in over the Rooney issue, that was all MUST too.

I didn't know that, cheers

 

[ciderman9000000]

I didn't know that, cheers

MUST told you! Listen next time ffs!

 

[TheMancRedDevil]

You are quite right there, Rood. They wont answer, and they are not obliged to answer.

They would answer if they had nothing to hide.

That's what Dildo was saying the other week and I was just as embarrassed as when he said it.

He also asked the stupid question, "Does this mean they won't ever be taking their dividends from the club?" and that had me wondering just what planet he inhabits too.

I want full details of your bank account anver, please post them on this forum. I want to know exactly how much you earn, how much your assets are worth and what liquid cash you have available.

What's your problem with that request? Got something to hide, have we?

Give it a rest.

 

[jrsenior]

This thread is going OT making it hard to read back. Any news on where the funds to pay
down the PIK´s came from?

 

[Crerand Legend]

This thread is going OT making it hard to read back. Any news on where the funds to pay
down the PIK´s came from?

Very sensitive question that

 

[Crerand Legend]

That's what Dildo was saying the other week and I was just as embarrassed as when he said it.

He also asked the stupid question, "Does this mean they won't ever be taking their dividends from the club?" and that had me wondering just what planet he inhabits too.

I want full details of your bank account anver, please post them on this forum. I want to know exactly how much you earn, how much your assets are worth and what liquid cash you have available.

What's your problem with that request? Got something to hide, have we?

Give it a rest.

Nobody is saying they have to reveal anything it is their right. As long as they don't however it gives people the right to speculate where it came from and if I was a Glazer and it wasn't new borrowed money I would take great pride in shutting alot of people like me up.

 

[anver]

That's what Dildo was saying the other week and I was just as embarrassed as when he said it.

He also asked the stupid question, "Does this mean they won't ever be taking their dividends from the club?" and that had me wondering just what planet he inhabits too.

I want full details of your bank account anver, please post them on this forum. I want to know exactly how much you earn, how much your assets are worth and what liquid cash you have available.

What's your problem with that request? Got something to hide, have we?

Give it a rest.

Did MUST actually ask those details from the Glazers? Jeez.

About the dividends I believe they have all the right to take them. But what irks most people is the spin that the PIKs have been paid, and so there is nothing to worry. MUST and Anders have to eat their words.etc.etc., when actually the PIKs have been paid for through another loan; so the debt remains. It is the debt that is the moot point.

And hey. I am getting off now. Its 6 pm here, and I have attend to some other matters. See you tomorrow.