All Time Chain Draft - R1: antohan vs Joga/Annah

Who will win with players at career peaks?


  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .

antohan

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Sure thing mate, will keep my contributions to a minimum, other than to post compilations or to answer queries every once in a while.
:lol: No worries mate, I know I leave this in good hands.

Some tremendous players on show here, just a shame it is so much harder to introduce new ones who just weren't lucky enough to play in a World Cup alongside Edson Arantes do Nascimento.

I'm under no illusions. Some will go with the muppet in them and those aware of the muppet in them will just not vote claiming not to know the players. That's the fate of anyone trying to bring forward the hidden gems in football's history. Or the ones right out there in the open like Teófilo.

Pelé after winning the 1970 World Cup said:
Don’t worry, I already have a successor: Teófilo Cubillas
I know, Pelé and all that... but he went on to fulfill that: Best Young Player 1970 WC, All-Star Team 1978, just a shame he was only the Best Ever Player for Peru. Three WC qualifications, then they never made it again. Go figure.
 

diarm

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What a shame that these two drew each other in the first round. The best back four in the draft against the best wide four in the draft with a whole load of quality thrown in between.

I can see Anto's front 2 getting some real joy against those centre backs but equally, with Facchetti's wonderful compulsion to attack, Alberto, Tigana and Jairzinho look irresistible down that right hand flank.

Really struggling to call this one. I must say that all I know about Abbadie and Andrade is what I've read from Anto here so I'm going to have a little search on the two of them before I make a decision on this one.
 

Joga Bonito

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The only player in your team standing clearly ahead of mine as a passer is Didí,
I'm sorry but I will take Rivelino, Enzo and C.Alberto over what your team has to offer in terms of the passing stakes. Perhaps Scirea and C.Alberto are on equal footing but C.Alberto was the better long-range passer and the one your team needs in terms of the out-ball it requires, whilst Scirea was more about the patient build-up play, composure in possession etc.


You have three chaps passing the ball around and interlinking but largely unable to penetrate my organised and very well protected defensive line. Just like they couldn't penetrate that of the Netherlands, Poland, Yugoslavia and Scotland's when in their prime.
The likes of Rivelino, Didi and Jairzinho in particular were brilliant and incisive footballers. They weren't about playing patient, interlinking tiki-taka stuff but mostly about direct, incisive and attacking football.

Any side would be worse off without the presence of Pele but the side doesn't suddenly become impotent and toothless, and you are blatantly giving the directness that Tigana provides and the intelligence of Enzo, short thrift here and solely focusing on the lack of Pele. The Brazil 1974 side was horrendous and a dirty side and there were plenty of reasons for their deterioration. Pele was one of them but I suspect that even he couldn't have improved that side, such was the state of that team...

I can see Anto's front 2 getting some real joy against those centre backs
As good as anto's front duo are, I can see my defensive duo keeping them under check. Altafini was a poacher who primarily relied on service and Boninsegna was a decent all-round forward. They won't have the volume of service required for them to make their desired impact here. They were good players but a Baggio/Romario they are not, in terms of making things happen on their own. Anto's side lacks that genuine playmaker to consistently set them on the counter and even then these are two quality centre-backs that we are talking about. M.Tresor is arguably the greatest French centre back ever after L.Blanc and was a rock at the back for the late 70s and early 80s French side.

His shut-out display against the fiery Kempes in the 1978 WC was nothing short of fantastic.

Marius Tresor said:
"In just one World Cup he showed he was an irresistible player with tremendous confidence. There were only a few defenders who managed to control him in 1978 and I'm proud to say I was one of them. Christian Lopez and I picked him up in zones, and we tried to encourage each other by saying he was just another player. We knew we couldn't let him turn because he was deadly from the edge of the box. He was so strong."
M.Ramos too, is regarded as the best Brazilian CB ever after one Domingos Da Guia. He captained a side containing Zito, D.Santos and N.Santos to a WC trophy after all. Once again, I don't want to slight Boninsegna and Altafini but I'd back my centre-back duo to deal with them.
 
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Moby

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This match wouldn't be out of place for a final, considering both the teams and the effort and belief of the managers in them.
 

Joga Bonito

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@ctp Any reasons for changing your vote mate? Or was it just a misclick at the beginning?
 

diarm

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As good as anto's front duo are, I can see my defensive duo keeping them under check. Altafini was a poacher who primarily relied on service and Boninsegna was a decent all-round forward. They won't have the volume of service required for them to make their desired impacts here. They were good players but a Baggio/Romario they are not, in terms of making things happen on their own. Anto's side lacks that genuine playmaker to consistently set them on the counter and even then these are two quality centre-backs that we are talking about. M.Tresor is arguably the greatest French centre back ever after L.Blanc and was a rock at the back for the late 70s and early 80s French side.

His shut-out display against the fiery Kempes in the 1978 WC was nothing short of fantastic.

M.Ramos too, is regarded as the best Brazilian CB ever after one Domingos Da Guia. He captained a side containing Zito, D.Santos and N.Santos to a WC trophy after all. Once again, I don't want to slight Boninsegna and Altafini but I'd back my centre-back duo to deal with them.
Hey I'm not knocking your centre backs at all, the margins in a game of this quality are small and subjective at best. I don't think for a second that they'd be giving your defence the run around but I do think they'd cause you some trouble at times.

Facchetti getting to the byline and delivering to Boninsegna is one real avenue for them and from what I've read about Cubillas, I think it's unrealistic to say he won't give any service at all to those 2.

There's literally inches in this one. Your wide men are going to give them nightmares for weeks after and I'd probably give you the edge in midfield as well.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Pretty damn tight by the looks of it. Abbadie is the one you have to buy here, I think, in that role - because he's an important part of the attack (as a provider for the front duo: both Facchetti and Cubillas could be shackled here at times, so it's important to have something beyond this, and I don't think you can rely on long range passing from deep as a means to bring Altafini/Boninsegna directly into play, to me the latter looks more like an excellent means to bring the "intermediary" players, viz. Facchetti and said Abbadie, into the action). So, he's important - and he's not a big name in this context.

That might be anto's biggest problem in terms of harvesting votes here. In terms of how well this would work as per the logic of the game plan, however, Abbadie isn't a problem at all. It all depends - again - on whether you buy him or not.

I fancy anto's arguments myself, though. I largely agree with what I consider his most crucial argument: The opposition will find it incredibly hard to score against him. Regarded in numbers/trios (for convenience's sake, obviously players beyond these will also influence matters, very much so, as indicated above), I consider Cubillas-Boninsegna-Altafini a greater threat (given the particulars of this match) than Rivelino-Francescoli-Jairzinho. Not by a country mile or anywhere close, but sufficiently so.

As anto says, he doesn't need to outscore his opponent in grand style, he only needs the upper hand.

Lastly, regarding Facchetti: I agree with Joga/Annah that Facchetti might find it hard to play his natural game 100% here, which will influence the frequency with which he will feed Boninsegna, but I don't buy their interpretation of his defensive status (so to speak). Anto has explained well enough how there is sufficient protection for Facchetti if and when he goes on a run - and I also second what Gio touched on above: Facchetti, for all his offensive prowess, is a considerable defender in his own right (I'd have him above Nilton Santos in that regard, as Joga himself has), and his ridiculous speed makes him far less of a liability than your standard attacking side back/wingback (he isn't a standard wingback to begin with for my money, his role is more of a custom made one).
 

antohan

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What a shame that these two drew each other in the first round. The best back four in the draft against the best wide four in the draft with a whole load of quality thrown in between.

I can see Anto's front 2 getting some real joy against those centre backs but equally, with Facchetti's wonderful compulsion to attack, Alberto, Tigana and Jairzinho look irresistible down that right hand flank.
But if Facchetti is attacking up the field Alberto and Tigana surely will be there too? And he has more pace than either, so they aren't an issue. Only Jairzinho could be an issue and Gonçalves and Figueroa can jointly take very good care of that.

Really struggling to call this one. I must say that all I know about Abbadie and Andrade is what I've read from Anto here so I'm going to have a little search on the two of them before I make a decision on this one.
Rodríguez Andrade, bang at the top of the rightback list on this site (it's chronological, mind). Won a World Cup and made it to the semis in the other only to lose to Hungary in ET in what many call " The Match of the Century". His withdrawal through injury in ET (with no sub) was the tipping point for Hungary to wrap it up.

Abbadie all I can offer is links to poor quality old games. He was also in that 1954 side but was injured in the quarter final against England so no footage I can get hold of. He was abroad for a fair chunk of his career, but when available he scored 14 goals in 26 games for Uruguay.

The best gif I managed to recover was this asssist of his for Joya in the first final against River (he scored the first as well but you don't really see much other than the ball hitting the back of the net).



You can also check Italian wiki where they have a great story of how he played despite being injured in the last game of a season with Genoa facing relegation, then provided the assist for the goal that saved them.

There's also this article from a Genoa fanpage. Haven't had time to read it (work!!!!!!! :mad:) but I know he was superb for them so no worries, just ask Chrome to translate it for you.
 

antohan

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Before I go, just a bit of a laugh at Joga saying Tito was just a tidy passer:

Quick lob for Spencer to score: clearly had an eye for exploiting opportunities


Yet again, has the right instincts, while fooling everyone about what he was about to do:



And then he makes this "tidy" passes at the end:





Yeah, I have players who made a career of playing counterattacking football but somehow "I won't be able to execute it".
 

antohan

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I also have a feeling Altafini and Boninsegna are being given for granted here:




Both were far more prolific goalscorers than any of Joga's forward and, guess what?, they played for Italian counterattacking sides!!!!!!!

:rolleyes:
 

diarm

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Thanks @antohan , there's some great stuff there.

There's also this article from a Genoa fanpage. Haven't had time to read it (work!!!!!!! :mad:) but I know he was superb for them so no worries, just ask Chrome to translate it for you.
Here's that article translated if anyone wants to read. I'm about halfway through, it's not short!

I confess that I followed a dream for almost 50 years , and have had , in the end , the satisfaction and excitement to see it become reality .
The dream was to fly one day to Montevideo to meet Abbadie , never forgot the idol of my youth. A dream that nothing and no one could erase, because the dreams of adolescence are our true essence, and live with us forever. That morning of 13 November 2004, when the windows of the Hotel Columbia , with the sea in front of the Atlantic ocean , in a beautiful Montevideo as a childhood memory , I saw -and immediately, who was posteggiando the car, for a moment I lost control of everything and I can not say what he felt or thought.

I only know that a few minutes later, facing each other, we looked at how to shake hands (he did not even have an idea of who I was, knew only from my telefonata- I was a fan of Genoa), and instead we were hugging each other, like two old friends, both moved by the fact that time, once again, nothing he could against the force of memory. As Genoa player, was born and raised in the myth of Pilcher, Cattani and Beccattini, old hearts rossoblu that for years have been the pillars of a team that was increasingly impoverished talent; and nell'infatuazione for Verdeal, the whimsical South American school of Argentina, who had played in Brazil with football legends like Ademir and Zizinho, and that knit Rossoblu had been able to give genoani the last dreams of grandeur.

After Verdeal had arrived Boye, another Argentine, another champion of racial, national and repeatedly champions Argentina, the volley of power and an extraordinary precision. But I was too young age to be able to truly appreciate the football skills. Until, in the summer of '56, he came again from South America, Abbadie.

This time I was the right age. I had cut his teeth on perfect geometry, ground ball, Larsen, elegant and combative median Norwegian, and I was impressed by the "serpentine" irresistible Carapellese, in Genoa that he had found a second youth, to the point of being called again to play in the national team.

But Abbadie was really from another planet, and changed, with the way he plays, the way I understand football.
Football as art. Art and intelligence here, in two words, the message of Abbadie. A clear message of the South American school.

Two years before coming in Genoa, Abbadie had been among the major players in the World Cup in Switzerland, which had participated playing right wing in the Uruguayan squad, he stopped in the semis after -only time supplementary by great Hungarian Puskas. Specialized commentators, had put Abbadie formations ideals of the World, and us fans obviously knew. Therefore, the news of his purchase, in that unforgettable summer of '56, broke a lot of enthusiasm. And in the first friendly of August to Ferraris, against a good Udinese, although the town was on vacation, a good number of fans was present in the stands, in the grip of curiosity and emotion.

Genoa, further weakened compared with previous years and hurtling toward irreversible decline, unfortunately showed modest team, but Abbadie exhibited an extremely high level of class, as long you could not see in the basin of the Ferraris. For two years, even though he lacked the support of the midfield (which had been dismembered before his arrival, and never rebuilt), to the point that often, himself, had to do as a midfielder and puncture (played with 7, with the ' with 8 and 9), Abbadie delighted his many fans with performances of rare intelligence technique and refined talent.

His style, as do the champions, was unique. Running strides, tall and very elegant movements, holding the ball at least a meter forward. It always seemed that the marker could anticipate it, and yet at the last moment it was as if the same it removed to let him pass. It took me some time to grasp that imperceptible fake body that Abbadie performing at full speed, thanks to which regularly put defenders out of time and could continue acting in speed going straight ahead, as if the defenders themselves had not been there. Except the last one that regularly stretched a moment before he could enter the area. View it as of mid-field and draw on the grass of the Ferraris those perfect straight lines, it was one of the most beautiful and spectacular things I've ever seen on the football field.

In Naples scored one goal by taking the ball to head up to the midline of the field and, at full speed, after having slid elegantly along the body from head to toe, then he passed half the opposing team, in unstoppable progression, until when, at the height of the penalty area, shook the center and flashed the great Bugatti, with a shot tight and arched, which bagged the applause of the same Neapolitan public (he was still playing in the Vomero), which bestowed the Our star players a standing ovation.
Football Illustrated (thankfully documents remain) honored him with the photo on the front page, and in the record, the envoy wrote that, at some point in the game, the coach of Napoli saw fit to release Morin (Napoli) nightmare (that's right!) Abbadie, changing marking, (without getting any results because Abbadie continued to rage).

But Abbadie was a nightmare, not only for the poor Morin. It was also for the whole Sampdoria, in the famous derby 1 November of '57, known to history as "the derby of Abbadie". That day the Genoa down the field with only one point in the standings, last and disconnected from everyone, and with a very small team.
Young Lions, Corso and Firottto, received by the great Uruguayan champion, over the 90 ', a dozen balls asking only to be pushed into the net. Many mistaken, sometimes by a pitch, but three slipped, allowing the Genoa to get an unexpected victory on the eve, and his fans raise their heads at the city level.
In that famous derby, won 3-1 by Genoa, neighbors, future coach of the Italian team, sprained an ankle on a fake deadly Abbadie, who fled from all sides.
Monzeglio, coach of Sampdoria, he thought to put then on Abbadie, the best of her, the great Ockwirch, one of the last exponents of the legendary Danube school worth it also, like Genoa, in serious decline.
 

diarm

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But seeing that he could not even keep him, he made him, at one point, his hands, the gesture that indicates to be more into an opponent.
At that, the stadium saw Ockwirck respond to his coach, with the gesture of one who indicates that there's nothing to do.
Companies such as these just mentioned, Abbadie, in Genoa, he made many. And the second year, in addition to doing, as usual, the director of the team to chronic lack of midfield, also scored thirteen goals, one more beautiful than the other.
The third year began so, if possible, even more exciting. The first of the season, 3-3 at the Ferraris against a good Napoli, showed a resounding Abbadie, who scored two goals -the second from cineteca- and gave the willing striker Maccacaro the ball for the third goal at the end of a personal action.
I do not exaggerate when I say that we fans of Abbadie were over the moon, and we expected a great championship. But -sorte Old Grifo! - Sundays after Bologna, Abbadie was a serious crisis that brought to light a serious case of pleurisy. That stunning performance against Napoli, the first day of the third championship played with us, it would unfortunately remained the last pearl that Abbadie gave to the fans of Genoa.

It will pass the third year to get treatment, then there will be a relapse, and the fourth year, the great Uruguayan will only be a convalescent who tries to get back to playing football. And Genoa, that without him was really little, ended for the third time in series B.
Abbadie, who still had two-year contract with Genoa, will end in Lecco, who played in the A, where he was able to recover well from the damn pleurisy, which we had taken it when he was at the height of its splendor.
Returning to his homeland, will wear again the legendary coat of Penharol, one of the legendary teams in the history of world football, and win more championships (9 in total, as many as Genoa in its entire history), Copa Libertadores and Intercontinental Cup, in testimony of a prestigious international career that puts Abbadie data in hand, on the podium of the most prestigious players in the world, who has worn the jersey of Genoa after the war.
When I visited him in Montevideo, in the afternoon, at his home, he showed me a great book on glossy paper, which reported the 100 greatest players in the history of South American football. Compound with pride, he showed that, among the 100, he was there. And I stood for a moment stuck with emotion because the photo showed Abbadie with the shirt rossoblu Old Grifo!

Him speak the stories of South American football and world football and writers, as Eduardo Galeano, who says, in his book "Splendors and miseries of the Game of Football", of being a fan of Nacional, but he had a long association matches the "hated" rival Penharol, because not resist the desire to see the two artists play football, and as Abbadie Schiaffino. And with him, we talk, sometimes, even to Rametta of Deferrari.
One of Rametta, named Walter, who as a boy played in the youth of Genoa in the years when there was Abbadie, training matches in midweek had the task to mark it.

Whenever tells of those times, there is always someone who asks: "But Abbadie, seen up close, on the playing field, as it was?" And every time Walter responds: "With him, the ball, I've never seen. I do not say never touched her, I say, never seen! I thought he was here and he was there instead. It was always so. The concealed, I could not see exactly. And then he had a stride that I sowed a few meters. Stuff the other world, a true champion.
 

diarm

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But if Facchetti is attacking up the field Alberto and Tigana surely will be there too? And he has more pace than either, so they aren't an issue. Only Jairzinho could be an issue and Gonçalves and Figueroa can jointly take very good care of that.
Of course for the most part, but you know the way these things go. All it takes is one time for Facchetti to be caught out and those 3 have the ability to move the ball in seconds, into areas that Jairzinho or Alberto outside him can really hurt you.

It's no slight, Facchetti and Abaddie are going to get similar opportunities against his fullbacks who are no more shrinking violets in attack than yours!
 

Annahnomoss

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Enjoying Anto's sales antics, honestly always equally impressive.

In terms of the central midfield we have Didi and Zito who are considered one of the greatest midfield duo in history and together they helped Brazil win two consecutive World Cups. In that '62 midfield Ramos was playing with Zozimo who was an equal player in terms of style to Tresor - where Tresor is a massive upgrade. We have Nilton Santos who was one of the most important members of the squad during these years and on the other side Carlos Alberto isn't far from Djalma Santos in terms of style and they are similar in quality.

Brazil had a fantastic defense these years and we've improved it even further by massively upgrading Zozimo with Tresor and of course by including Tigana who is one of the greatest box-to-box players ever. We have a better central midfield simply put, our attacking quarter of Didi, Rivelino, Jairzinho and Enzo are superior to Boninsegna, Altafini and Abaddie who are the three worst players on the pitch by a margin. With the lack of width from his left side Carlos Alberto will shrink more space and add another body against his strikers by tucking in until Facchetti is far up enough to provide width.

In which case there is a clear route to goal the second it is lost as Facchetti can't teleport to also mark Jairzinho.

Our left flank with Nilton Santos and Rivelino complements each other great as well, Rivelino likes tucking inside and Nilton loves dominating the flank and providing width. Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto up against a Facchetti without a winger to help him, even with support, will be a very clear route to chances and possible goals.

Rivelino's dribbling and playmaking is the reason he's considered one of the greatest players ever and he hasn't been noted much in the comments so far but he is definitely a match winner.


Mauro Ramos and Tresor are comfortably better as individuals than Bonninsegna and Altafini who they are facing, on the other side the Rivelino-Nilton flank has a clear advantage over Abaddie-Andrade one without the shadow of a doubt. Andrade, Nilton Santos and Rivelino are GOAT quality players - Abaddie isn't.

All in all we have the stronger left flank, the stronger right flank and the stronger central midfield.
 
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diarm

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Yeah there's a lot to be said for Team Anto. A great write up and fascinating insight into some wonderful lesser known players. But that Joga side has 6 or 7 players who are genuine contenders for the greatest football XI of all time.

Just because it's our inner muppet talking, doesn't mean it's wrong! Joga to find the edge against that magnificent defence in a game I would pay any sort of money to watch.
 

Annahnomoss

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Yeah there's a lot to be said for Team Anto. A great write up and fascinating insight into some wonderful lesser known players. But that Joga side has 6 or 7 players who are genuine contenders for the greatest football XI of all time.

Just because it's our inner muppet talking, doesn't mean it's wrong! Joga to find the edge against that magnificent defence in a game I would pay any sort of money to watch.
I love his write-ups as well and have followed them in the draft thread. But then regardless of their lovely stories they aren't mentioned or considered in the same stratosphere as the players picked for this draft. I don't think Abaddie, Altafini or Boninsegna has been picked in any draft before yet here they are in an all time one.

There is a quite clear gap in quality between the teams where his only GOAT quality offensive player is Cubillas and he's definitely not better than Didi as an individual - nor would he be considered higher rated than Rivelino or Jairzinho for that matter.

The only way our player quality could be compromised were if we had played them in roles or with players they wouldn't be comfortable with. But here they are in proven partnerships like;

Zito-Didi-Nilton-Ramos
Tigana-Tresor
Carlos Alberto-Jairzinho-Rivelino

And Nilton Santos would boost Rivelino rather than bring him down considering he's one of the few who could provide that dominant width on the flank to give Rivelino full freedom without being too narrow.

Also playing players two strikers who scores a lot doesn't mean muc
 
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Moby

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Brazil had a fantastic defense these years and we've improved it even further by massively upgrading Zozimo with Tresor and of course by including Tigana who is one of the greatest box-to-box players ever.
I'm not sure if I agree with that addition. Sure it improves the team defensively but when did Brazilians ever care about improving defensively? It goes against the theme of your team in a way.

The beauty of the Didi-Zito combo was that it worked by itself in that 4-2-4 and never asked for any improvement, with the help from a hard working wide man in Zagallo. Zito was happy being the one man defensive shield with ample help from Didi and Zagallo when needed, with Didi then having that awesome foursome ahead of him, specially that deadly front two of Pele and Vava. You are clearly missing that here, as long as you are keen on making comparisons to that Brazilian team. Specially Pele.

And of course, they won the WC final 5-2 not 1-0 or 2-0. They went about their business in their style and not being tactically restricted and cautious about the apparent lightweight midfield or anything. It is what made them the force they were and there isn't a doubt in my mind that had players like Didi and Garrincha been asked to play 'responsibly' as it is a WC final, they wouldn't have been as great as they were.

Once you went with the Brazilian theme you shouldn't have looked back or been worried about being defensively weak. I've often seen comments like Didi, while he played in a two man midfield was more of an attacking playmaker, yes, he was, but it was him pulling the strings with a quartet to aim for that was one of the biggest plus points of that side. You cannot replace Pele-Vava with a lone man up front in Enzo (with all due respect) and pretend you have upgraded on that team, or draw comparisons to it. For me it goes against the theme, and it also doesn't let the players shine the way they did, with a different managerial approach than the ones they are used to. Tigana is a fantastic modern box to box midfielder who worked wonders in that French counter attacking team, but he has no place in a vintage 50s Brazilian setup, not when you have the very midfield partnership that made the team work in the first place already. You have gone pragmatic, but with the wrong background of players, is all.
 

Chesterlestreet

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I'm not sure if I agree with that addition. Sure it improves the team defensively but when did Brazilians ever care about improving defensively? It goes against the theme of your team in a way.

The beauty of the Didi-Zito combo was that it worked by itself in that 4-2-4 and never asked for any improvement, with the help from a hard working wide man in Zagallo. Zito was happy being the one man defensive shield with ample help from Didi and Zagallo when needed, with Didi then having that awesome foursome ahead of him, specially that deadly front two of Pele and Vava. You are clearly missing that here, as long as you are keen on making comparisons to that Brazilian team. Specially Pele.

And of course, they won the WC final 5-2 not 1-0 or 2-0. They went about their business in their style and not being tactically restricted and cautious about the apparent lightweight midfield or anything. It is what made them the force they were and there isn't a doubt in my mind that had players like Didi and Garrincha been asked to play 'responsibly' as it is a WC final, they wouldn't have been as great as they were.

Once you went with the Brazilian theme you shouldn't have looked back or been worried about being defensively weak. I've often seen comments like Didi, while he played in a two man midfield was more of an attacking playmaker, yes, he was, but it was him pulling the strings with a quartet to aim for that was one of the biggest plus points of that side. You cannot replace Pele-Vava with a lone man up front in Enzo (with all due respect) and pretend you have upgraded on that team, or draw comparisons to it. For me it goes against the theme, and it also doesn't let the players shine the way they did, with a different managerial approach than the ones they are used to. Tigana is a fantastic modern box to box midfielder who worked wonders in that French counter attacking team, but he has no place in a vintage 50s Brazilian setup, not when you have the very midfield partnership that made the team work in the first place already. You have gone pragmatic, but with the wrong background of players, is all.
Interesting points.

I agree with everything, especially the lone man up front problem. As far as themes/styles go, that can't be a deciding factor - not for me. I might hold that against a manager, generally speaking, but if the team is functional I can't let it decide the outcome.

Problem here, though, is that what we see isn't an upgrade on the original machine - it's a considerable downgrade in terms of attacking prowess and goal threat.
 

antohan

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I love his write-ups as well and have followed them in the draft thread. But then regardless of their lovely stories they aren't mentioned or considered in the same stratosphere as the players picked for this draft. I don't think Abaddie, Altafini or Boninsegna has been picked in any draft before yet here they are in an all time one.

There is a quite clear gap in quality between the teams where his only GOAT quality offensive player is Cubillas and he's definitely not better than Didi as an individual - nor would he be considered higher rated than Rivelino or Jairzinho for that matter.

The only way our player quality could be compromised were if we had played them in roles or with players they wouldn't be comfortable with. But here they are in proven partnerships like;

Zito-Didi-Nilton-Ramos
Tigana-Tresor
Carlos Alberto-Jairzinho-Rivelino

And Nilton Santos would boost Rivelino rather than bring him down considering he's one of the few who could provide that dominant width on the flank to give Rivelino full freedom without being too narrow.

Also playing players two strikers who scores a lot doesn't mean muc
What a load of tosh. I don't think Gunnar Gren ever got picked, must have been shit. Ronnie Hellstrom hasn't been picked, must have been a calamity as a keeper... Every time Liedholm has been picked he has been deemed lightweight... I'm sure the draft experts are right, he is useless.

I could carry on forever. The fact is you are happy to pander to the masses and conventional wisdom and I'm not.

Altafini's record speaks for itself. Sure, he is not fancy, but it's a terrific record and few strikers that have made it in this draft can match it.

Boninsegna had an understanding with Facchetti which is far superior to the non-existent one between your two wide men and a striker that is nothing like what they are used to playing off.

As far as Abaddie goes, there you have an Italian chap jumping on a plane and flying to South America to meet him. Fifty years later. Yeah, must have been shit, just because the likes of Annahnomoss at RedCafe never picked him in an armchair fan keyboard warrior Euro/WC-centric draft community in which most haven't watched much football before the 90s, if that.

You have some excellent players, even some great combos, but they sort of fall on their arse at the critical junctures: the centre of the attack and the centre of the defence.

MY PROVEN COMBINATIONS:

Abbadie-Varela-Andrade: i.e. the entire right side of my defensive setup for club and country.
Abbadie-Gonçalves: a nice bridge in my midfield
Gonçalves-Figueroa: i.e. the two who need to combine and coordinate to support Facchetti's runs.
Facchetti-Boninsegna: i.e. the ones that will torment Mauro Ramos all game long and score at least one goal, if not two. And I don't need more
 
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antohan

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The reason a lot of great players never get picked is precisely that Annah-logic.

And then people ask why I don't bother enter these things any more. Go on, carry on drolling at the wingmen who couldn't break down Yugoslavia or Scotland in 74. The ones looking lost against the Dutch and the Poles and who could only score against the weakest teams in the competition.

That's what you'll get from a toothless one-dimensional frontline.
 

Annahnomoss

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I'm not sure if I agree with that addition. Sure it improves the team defensively but when did Brazilians ever care about improving defensively? It goes against the theme of your team in a way.

The beauty of the Didi-Zito combo was that it worked by itself in that 4-2-4 and never asked for any improvement, with the help from a hard working wide man in Zagallo. Zito was happy being the one man defensive shield with ample help from Didi and Zagallo when needed, with Didi then having that awesome foursome ahead of him, specially that deadly front two of Pele and Vava. You are clearly missing that here, as long as you are keen on making comparisons to that Brazilian team. Specially Pele.

And of course, they won the WC final 5-2 not 1-0 or 2-0. They went about their business in their style and not being tactically restricted and cautious about the apparent lightweight midfield or anything. It is what made them the force they were and there isn't a doubt in my mind that had players like Didi and Garrincha been asked to play 'responsibly' as it is a WC final, they wouldn't have been as great as they were.

Once you went with the Brazilian theme you shouldn't have looked back or been worried about being defensively weak. I've often seen comments like Didi, while he played in a two man midfield was more of an attacking playmaker, yes, he was, but it was him pulling the strings with a quartet to aim for that was one of the biggest plus points of that side. You cannot replace Pele-Vava with a lone man up front in Enzo (with all due respect) and pretend you have upgraded on that team, or draw comparisons to it. For me it goes against the theme, and it also doesn't let the players shine the way they did, with a different managerial approach than the ones they are used to. Tigana is a fantastic modern box to box midfielder who worked wonders in that French counter attacking team, but he has no place in a vintage 50s Brazilian setup, not when you have the very midfield partnership that made the team work in the first place already. You have gone pragmatic, but with the wrong background of players, is all.
Interesting points.

I agree with everything, especially the lone man up front problem. As far as themes/styles go, that can't be a deciding factor - not for me. I might hold that against a manager, generally speaking, but if the team is functional I can't let it decide the outcome.

Problem here, though, is that what we see isn't an upgrade on the original machine - it's a considerable downgrade in terms of attacking prowess and goal threat.
Like always when you are inspired by a theme you suddenly aren't competing against the opposition anymore you are instead compared to the amazing side you were inspired by. In this case the incredible Garrincha-Pele and Zagallo(whom I rate very highly as a tactical pawn, and then some, for that side).

The reality is that we are facing underwhelming players like Altafini, Bonasegna and Abaddie rather and in comparison to them our collection of Rivelino-Jairzinho and Enzo stand very high and are vastly superior both as individuals and as part of the team.

There is no way to logically explain how Fachetti would create more chances from the left than Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto, especially when they proved to be a dominant outlet when they faced each other in the 1970 World Cup final. On the other side Andrade is an amazing player, one for the history books and he deserves to be credited as one of the best full backs ever - but so does Nilton Santos and he on top of that has one of the greatest players ever in front of him in Rivelino - and they complement each other perfectly.

Like discussed earlier Altafini and Boninsegna have never featured in a draft, they've been presented in a lovely way, but at the end of the day they are going to be weaknesses to team Antohan and not match winners. Just playing two strikers up front and saying they scored a fair amount of goals doesn't mean they'll score more goals than the opponents, if that was the case Rooney and RVP would have dominated the league.

The most important part is how the team would function as a whole and how much service they would get. Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto, Rivelino and Nilton Santos and Didi with the support of Tigana and Zito would create far more chances for the team and dominate the game as well.

Nobody would ever say that Boninsegna and Altafini has an advantage when it comes to individual skill over Ramos/Tresor except Antohan in this very match up because he picked those players up. On our right side Carlos Alberto and Jairzinho will only be facing the threat of Facchetti and on the right we'll face Andrade/Abaddie, which are both match ups that where we are very superior.
 

Gio

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The reason a lot of great players never get picked is precisely that Annah-logic.

And then people ask why I don't bother enter these things any more. Go on, carry on drolling at the wingmen who couldn't break down Yugoslavia or Scotland in 74. The ones looking lost against the Dutch and the Poles and who could only score against the weakest teams in the competition.

That's what you'll get from a toothless one-dimensional frontline.
Right, that's the third or fourth time you've mentioned the Scottish defence in 1974. It was pretty fecking decent - we had the best pair of full-backs in the competition in Danny McGrain and Sandy Jardine. We went out conceding a single goal.

Point well made though re the relative inability of Rivelino and Jairzinho to bend a match their way amid the more challenging circumstances of '74.
 

Annahnomoss

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Well yeah, we sorta have moved past the "I have GOATs you don't so I win" sorta arguments.
It isn't about who has the GOAT's and who doesn't. It is about the fact that our players are better individually and they also play in a team that has proven and complementing partnerships. The only way to make up for individual superiority is by tactical superiority, and here that isn't the case. Rivelino and Nilton make a beautiful left wing, Alberto and Jairzinho the same on the other side. Didi and Zito were a proven partnership where Tigana adds a box to box presence that is needed there.
 

Moby

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Like discussed earlier Altafini and Boninsegna have never featured in a draft, they've been presented in a lovely way, but at the end of the day they are going to be weaknesses to team Antohan and not match winners. Just playing two strikers up front and saying they scored a fair amount of goals doesn't mean they'll score more goals than the opponents, if that was the case Rooney and RVP would have dominated the league.
Come on dude, you are taking the piss there.

If you have some actual evidence or concerns regarding their performances or style of play in the given setup, bring them forward. Them not being picked before in a draft, what does that have to do with this game? By your logic no names that haven't been discussed before should ever be brought up? That completely defeats the purpose of this exercise. If anything, it should be encouraged.

You are just doing the X>Y thingy, it's a bit of a poor form, to be honest.
 

Moby

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that is needed there.
It wasn't when they were winning world cups.

I am not sure why you need more defensive ability against a team playing on the counter in the first place? If anything, you need more firepower up front to break it down, which you are severely lacking.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Like always when you are inspired by a theme you suddenly aren't competing against the opposition anymore you are instead compared to the amazing side you were inspired by.
Yes, that's a danger. It does, however, to an extent depend on how you - yourself - define in what way you are going with said theme.

In this particular case it's not about criticizing the stylistic/thematic side of things, though. Not for me, at least. The problem is that your wide men, flanking Francescoli as a lone striker, is neither ideally balanced (Rivelino doesn't suit Enzo in that role for me) nor sufficiently dangerous (in numbers, in terms of goal threat) to deliver against a truly formidable defensive set-up. It is THAT I base my vote on, not on some flimsy idea about how you should line up in order to honour the Brazilian theme.
 

Gio

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It isn't about who has the GOAT's and who doesn't. It is about the fact that our players are better individually and they also play in a team that has proven and complementing partnerships. The only way to make up for individual superiority is by tactical superiority, and here that isn't the case. Rivelino and Nilton make a beautiful left wing, Alberto and Jairzinho the same on the other side. Didi and Zito were a proven partnership where Tigana adds a box to box presence that is needed there.
Tigana's a great pick. He fits IMO.
 

Joga Bonito

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I'm not sure if I agree with that addition. Sure it improves the team defensively but when did Brazilians ever care about improving defensively? It goes against the theme of your team in a way.

The beauty of the Didi-Zito combo was that it worked by itself in that 4-2-4 and never asked for any improvement, with the help from a hard working wide man in Zagallo. Zito was happy being the one man defensive shield with ample help from Didi and Zagallo when needed, with Didi then having that awesome foursome ahead of him, specially that deadly front two of Pele and Vava. You are clearly missing that here, as long as you are keen on making comparisons to that Brazilian team. Specially Pele.

And of course, they won the WC final 5-2 not 1-0 or 2-0. They went about their business in their style and not being tactically restricted and cautious about the apparent lightweight midfield or anything. It is what made them the force they were and there isn't a doubt in my mind that had players like Didi and Garrincha been asked to play 'responsibly' as it is a WC final, they wouldn't have been as great as they were.

Once you went with the Brazilian theme you shouldn't have looked back or been worried about being defensively weak. I've often seen comments like Didi, while he played in a two man midfield was more of an attacking playmaker, yes, he was, but it was him pulling the strings with a quartet to aim for that was one of the biggest plus points of that side. You cannot replace Pele-Vava with a lone man up front in Enzo (with all due respect) and pretend you have upgraded on that team, or draw comparisons to it. For me it goes against the theme, and it also doesn't let the players shine the way they did, with a different managerial approach than the ones they are used to. Tigana is a fantastic modern box to box midfielder who worked wonders in that French counter attacking team, but he has no place in a vintage 50s Brazilian setup, not when you have the very midfield partnership that made the team work in the first place already. You have gone pragmatic, but with the wrong background of players, is all.
Interesting points.

I agree with everything, especially the lone man up front problem. As far as themes/styles go, that can't be a deciding factor - not for me. I might hold that against a manager, generally speaking, but if the team is functional I can't let it decide the outcome.

Problem here, though, is that what we see isn't an upgrade on the original machine - it's a considerable downgrade in terms of attacking prowess and goal threat.
Thanks for those insights and they are most certainly fair points indeed. First of all you have to remember that this is an extremely difficult draft in terms of the drafting process and getting your hands on desired players. If we had the choice between Laudrup-Romario and Matthaus we would have gone for the former for the very same reason that Aldo mentioned but in this draft you don't get the same luxury. I'm sure anto would much rather be lining up with Schiaffino instead of Cubillas here but that is the type of draft that we are playing. So I'd hope you take that under consideration.

Does it take away the 'beauty' of the team and does it mean we are straying a wee bit from the theme? Unfortunately yes (and that's despite adding a magnificent player like Tigana), and it had to be done given the circumstances. However, does it make the team weaker or any less functional? Definitely not in my opinion.

For instance, we have Didi a dictating genius who averaged 1 in 3 playing from midfield, Rivelino who averaged 1 in 3, Jairzinho the only player to score in every round of the WC and someone with an average of 1 in 2 throughout his career and finally Enzo who was quite the goalscorer and won two top goalscorer in the league awards during his first River Plate stint, scoring 57 goals in just 2 years. So I will have to disagree with the lack of goal threat remarks. Does removing Pele weaken us in terms of goalscoring? Yes it does, as it should to any team, but adding a liberated Didi with more tactical freedom, to the midfield boosts our goalscoring input too.

Quite a few might not be pleased with the inclusion of Tigana as it goes against the 'theme' but then he does bring plenty of positives with him. For instance, as stated above he frees up Didi much more to exert his influence and further exploit his goalscoring potential. Needless to say, Rivelino gains more tactical freedom to excel in that inside left role and leave his mark, without a designated #10 or a second striker. Tigana himself has the experience of playing alongside that French team and was quite the technical and creative player. He most certainly wouldn't look out of place in our team and he doesn't just add steel and fortitude to our midfield. I understand that the Brazil team was full of free flowing football and played some irrepressible stuff with reckless abandon (as Aldo aptly stated) but no one can deny that Tigana does help immensely against the physical and athletic midfield of Varela-Goncalves-Cubillas.

So whilst I do concede that it does take away from the beauty of the team a bit, it doesn't completely destroy it and it also brings quite a lot to the table as well.
 
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Chesterlestreet

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Re: Non-picked (previously) players.

Firstly, what Aldo said. It's obviously no argument against any player that he hasn't been drafted before. When it comes to the older generations most will be unwilling/hesitant to pick anyone beyond the usual suspects.

Secondly, while I can understand that Abbadie will be considered an obscure name compared to most of the stellar ones on display here, and to a lesser extent (he is famous for being dropped in favour of Vava in '58, if nothing else) Altafini, I can't very well understand that Boninsegna is being questioned: He isn't an obscure pick, or shouldn't be, at least. I'm surprised that he has never appeared in drafts before (if that is indeed the case).
 

Moby

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To clear up my points regarding the homage : It wasn't just about them not staying true to the theme, that's simply their choice. What I was trying to say was when you change the setup in which the said players excelled, there will be consequences of some sort. Clearly, Didi supplying a forward line of Zagallo-Vava-Pele-Garrincha will get more joy than supplying to a Rivelino-Enzo-Jairzinho : that much is clear.

Also, I responded to a post where Annah was talking about upgrading that very side on the defensive side of things, which they have, but at the same time the downgrade on the attacking side of things needs to be talked about, to keep things fair. I don't intend to suggest that they should be setup identical to that side, but if you are yourself dwelling in the comparisons, then they would be done all the way, surely.

Tigana's a great pick. He fits IMO.
One would think Zito with Didi's support is capable enough of being tasked with minding Cubillas, no? In a game where the opponent is looking to dominate the midfield, I can understand the need for Tigana if they want to stay pragmatic and fear going gung-ho. But in this game, I am struggling to see what Tigana is adding in comparison to an addition to the firepower up front, which looking at anto's defense could be well needed here.
 

Joga Bonito

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@Chesterlestreet @Aldo

Once again, we think Enzo is criminally getting overlooked here. He is up against a worldlie defense, which we can perfectly understand and don't deny but his credentials playing up top are impeccable and absolute mint.

During this four year period up top, Enzo scored 68 goals from 113 matches for River Plate, winning the Argentine Primera Division top scorer award twice, being voted the South American Footballer of the Year and the Player of the Year in Argentina, all whilst bagging a Copa America Player of the Tournament in 1983 for good measure.

Sir Alex Ferguson said:
As soon as the Uruguayans were down to ten men, we became nervous and revealed the old Scottish inability to produce the killer thrust. Enzo Francescoli was magnificent for them, playing up front on his own with endless resourcefulness and composure He stood out in a team notable mainly for their malice and shamelessness of their tactics.
Craig Brown said:
A player who gave the greatest performance I've ever seen. Francescoli played our entire back four on his own and, although we finally managed to put some pressure on the Uruguayans later on in the game, we were eliminated.
Enzo Francescoli said:
My early days at River [Plate in Argentina] were tough, the team wasn't doing well and I couldn't find my position on the pitch. Once they put me up front, I started to turn things around.
I beseech you to watch this video if you haven't already (posted in OP). You can see plenty of goals from his earlier stint up front and proper center forwardesque goals. It wasn't just a make shift position for him, it was a position in which he genuinely excelled at and was absolutely brilliant in. It's no wonder that several sites, transfermarkt for instance, still refer to him as a centre-forward.


Further viewing for those who are curious about how Enzo played up front in an entire match


More in depth details about the River Plate team in which Enzo played in.

GK PUMPIDO
CB GUTIÉRREZ
CB RUGGERI
RSB GORDILLO
LSB MONTENEGRO
DMF GALLEGO
CMF ENRIQUE
AMF ALONSO
RWF ALZAMENDI/AMUCHÁSTEGUI
LWF ALFARO
CF FRANCESCOLI


Alzamendi was the sort of player that Jairzinho was, a goalscorer from out wide while Alfaro was a player who didn't score goals and who didn't provide the sort of width that a natural winger would. He was more of a solid and up-and-down winger type.

As seen, Enzo played with a playmaking attacking midfielder as well, as he by this time was a pure striker with great dribbling and goalscoring. Alonso was a playmaker, like Didi - slightly more offensive but with the same goalscoring ratio.

Enzo was a terrific goalscorer before moving to Europe and he loved occupying the left wing as well which suits great as Rivelino could then look to support from a central role rather. Key there is that Enzo would be the one moving left to find a pocket of space in the manners of Henry - while Rivelino would react in the second wave by moving centrally.
 
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antohan

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Right, that's the third or fourth time you've mentioned the Scottish defence in 1974. It was pretty fecking decent - we had the best pair of full-backs in the competition in Danny McGrain and Sandy Jardine. We went out conceding a single goal.

Point well made though re the relative inability of Rivelino and Jairzinho to bend a match their way amid the more challenging circumstances of '74.
Fair enough. I didn't mean it in an offensive way, more a case that if they couldn't score against very human/erstwhile setups they don't have a hope in hell against Facchetti-Figueroa-Scirea-Andrade protected by Gonçalves-Varela and Abbadie. Particularly when they have largely played together in similar setups and have upgrades in the two Italians.
 

Joga Bonito

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For all the talk about the process of our team breaking his down but I still don't see avenues for which anto can hit us on the counter, nor the players who can consistently (and more importantly, reliably) pose as the supply line for his forwards. An aspect in which his team is sorely lacking in, imo.
 

antohan

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BREAKING NEWS: Agent Francescoli, my 12th man, speaks his mind about which team he wants to be playing for (if I get there :()



Enzo Francescoli said:
My greatest happiness as a football fan was when I was six years old, in 1966. Peñarol was the Champion of the Americas beating River 4-2... They had great players like Mazurkiewicz [who he will also be playing with, if possible] and Elías Figueroa [who has him firmly in his pocket]

I would also like to thank manager Antohan for making that great video of my career. I'm looking forward to playing for him in a proper side I can relate to and not this bunch of fancy Brazilians