All Time Chain Draft - R1: antohan vs Joga/Annah

[antohan]

So, this game started and quickly run up to 5-1 to the Brazilians. Now it's 15-13 to the Italo-Uruguayans.

Familiar territory, you can almost feel their notoriously flaky spirits melting away.

It's what you call...​

WINNING THE PEÑAROL WAY

The Libertadores final in 1966 went to the wire. Peñarol won 2-0 at home but lost 3-2 in Buenos Aires in abnormal circumstances. Now River wanted the third final to be played in 48 hours instead of 72: they expected Peñarol's older squad to struggle with the short recovery.

One of the Directors returned to the hotel and consulted with his captain: “Tito, these cheats are trying to arrange the game for Friday instead of Saturday! And the CSF are supporting them those corrupt sons of a bitch!". To which Tito, aka the Captain of Captains, replied: “Saturday? We want to play them tomorrow”

That Friday, once the adrenalin was gone, Tito’s decision wasn’t looking all that wise. Peñarol started well, in fairness, but River looked fresher and by the end of the first half were 2-0 up. Another Libertadores was slipping away.

The reporter from El Gráfico (an Argie sports journal which feted River players like celebrities) wrote on his scrapbook:

Probably one of the best performances in recent times… With fluid football and ball circulation, River prevailed in every sector. Safe at the back, a strong and creative midfield and an attack with great clarity and offensive instincts. River was the only team on the pitch, we haven’t witnessed such overwhelming superiority in a long time

One of the key problems for that Peñarol side was not having a central midfielder of Teófilo Cubillas’ class. Once they couldn’t counter but had to take the game to another team, their midfield setup was way too deep and defensively focused. Rocha was a #10, not an AM who would carry the ball in transition. They were all used to starting counters from the midfield line, but once the game got stretched there was a huge gaping hole in the middle as Tito was more a passer than a box-to-box ball carrier.

THE HALF-TIME CHANGES

Peñarol took a defender off and brought on a right halfback to beef up the midfield and provide cover for Forlán Sr., who was a pretty average defender but tremendous crosser. With Forlán acting more as wingback than rightback, and well supported, Abbadie could be freed up from the wing and focus on ball-carrying through the middle. Máspoli was a wily old fox, he knew overconfidence when he saw it, just like he had seen it 16 years ago in the Maracanã. His half-time team talk was simple: “If we score one, they’ll fall apart”.

At the same time, in River’s changing rooms all they could talk about was their future games with Real Madrid. The first leg was usually in South America, so the Board had promised them a vacation in the South of France after the Intercontinental games. The right back was less bothered and complained of an injury: “I can play another 45, but I don’t want to miss the World Cup”. Unaware of all the changes Peñarol were making, and unaware that chap wouldn’t get called up anyway, the River manager dropped a midfielder into rightback and brought on another attacking midfielder.

The reporter from El Gráfico would later admit: "Cesarini [River manager] seemed right, the game was set for a high-scoring win. If at the end of the first 45 minutes anyone had suggested a change in the gameflow, a defeat by River, he would have been considered a comedian or a psychiatric case. River could already toast their first Libertadores Cup”

For the first twenty minutes of the second half, the changes didn’t seem to have made a difference. River were still attacking and Peñarol defending for their lives.


AND THEN CARRIZO feckED IT ALL UP

In the course of a rather innocuous Peñarol attack, finished with a weak lobbed header by Joya, Carrizo changed the course of the game. He didn’t save it, he chested it upwards, then grabbed it with his hands. Eccentric as he was, he probably didn’t even mean it, just wanted to show some tekkers… but the roar from the Chilean crowd said it all. It was cheeky, it was disrespectful and had Peñarol raising its head like a fighting cock.

The Clarín reporter wrote: “it was a minor thing, but so crudely offensive for his rivals, so patronizing, that for the Peñarol players and fans it was like skewering them with burning flags, wetting their ear (SAM expression), referring to their mothers sex lives, and giving them a kick up the backside, all in one”.

Spencer, Tito and Abbadie went up to Carrizo and made their feelings known. “He didn’t answer. That was a good symptom”, Spencer remembered. Tito continued with the intimidation screaming out loud from midfield to make sure he heard him: “Pepper the box with crosses! Let’s put it up there and when he comes out we all challenge him for the ball. Alberto, Juan, Pedro… you hear me?”. Lito Silva, a sub, scurried onto the pitch and camped behind the goal for the rest of the half letting Carrizo know “Si no ganamos este partido te cago a patadas” (if we don’t win I’ll kick your arse).

The incident had a huge effect on the morale of both camps. It wasn’t just the Peñarol players being up for it and the crowd behind them, but the younger River players suddenly realising they were walking among giants of the game. They disappeared from the pitch, at times it seemed only Carrizo was trying to win it.

River’s President had a different take after the game: “I thought we would lose the game when I saw the subs, that’s on the manager. But what this fella has done is inexplicable. When one goes on a windup he must be a man to face the consequences. It’s easy to goad when it’s all going great, but you have to know how to stand alone in adversity. He is responsible for the reaction of those negros (sic) and getting the crowd rooting for them. When he chested that ball he changed the game. A serious professional can’t do those silly things. Gatti has a bad game and we bench him, yet he has been here at River for twenty years and what has he won?”.


THE COMEBACK

Five minutes later Tito gets his chance, a free kick about 40 yards from goal:

I always took those. Spencer and Joya easily gained a yard advantage on a sprint, so I just lobbed it over the wall and onto their paths. It wasn’t as clear here as River hadn’t got organised yet, but I saw Alberto and knew he could nail it

Picture is blurred so another for Spencer's finish:

Great goal, and the drama begins. What looked like a threat is now a crisis. Peñarol are only a goal away and go for it. River have handed over the initiative and it’s all of Peñarol in attack and River with their backs against the wall. Abbadie is no longer hugging the line but bursting through the middle like a lawnmower. Gonçalves on the halfway line pushing them all forward. Rocha further up… You can start sensing the difference in physical weight. The spiritual difference. One team that grows taller and another that shrinks like a cheap jersey. Every ball going into the box has a whiff of goal.

And then Rocha is on the ball, Rocha to Spencer, Spencer to Joya, Joya to Rocha who doesn’t enter the box but backheels it out. Looks like Arsenal this FFS… Abbadieeeeeeeee, gool, goool, goooooooooool. A fierce drive that deflected off Matosas, leaving Carrizo flat-footed.

Abbadie equalises

For the remainder of the second half Spencer was on the prowl, nicking balls the moment a River defender let it bounce, Rocha launched tremendous rockets, Tito marshaled the troops, Forlán pivoted with Abbadie on the overlap and peppered the box with crosses for “the two negros” to terrify the River defenders. Lito Silva carried on cussing Carrizo behind the goal.

It’s over. The game is gone. The Cup is gone. Gone is the first half and River’s superiority. All that remains is the reality of this draw, the exuberance of Peñarol amid a River that already cries over this catastrophe.

Then Gonçalves again fools a River in disarray, screaming instructions and finger-pointing at Spencer and Joya before a free kick... only to pass it sideways for Forlán to run freely down the flank and cross. Three of the River back four had scampered back into the box and jumped in unison, but between them rose the splendid, imperious, feline agility of Alberto Spencer who just twatted the ball towards Carrizo’s far post. 3-2.

Peñarol's third, Spencer's second. Bizarrely, only @Brwned ever drafted him.

River was broken. Then a ball is recovered, gets passed around to Cortés, then Tito, Spencer makes a run, Joya makes his, the defenders follow them… so all Tito has to do is find the man everyone seemed to have forgotten to keep an eye on: Pedro Virgilio Rocha.

Rocha puts an end to it after Tito's cross.

4-2, and it could have been more as there was still time for Carrizo to foul Spencer running through on goal not once but twice without getting sent off or punished. Often happens when a countering side is ahead.

So Peñarol won their third Libertadores and a few months later also beat Real Madrid (the YeYe generation) 4-0: 2-0 in both legs.

 

[antohan]

@antohan have to go now and won't be back till the end of the game. Great game regardless of the result.

OK mate, I'll keep it tight, no worries. I reckon I've said all I needed to say anyway.

 

[antohan]

These things have a tendency to go mad at the end and I may not even be here (I'm telling my partner fibbies, again... ).

So just in case, I'll complete the theme and journey through Peñarol's great sides:

The year is 1982. Peñarol continued to be a relevant player in South American football, but was a far cry from the swinging sixties dominance. Amid huge concerns over how European football was going to gobble up all the talent in the South American pool, Peñarol fans decide to do something extraordinary: raising the money to bring back their idol, who was at Valencia playing alongside Kempes and Rep. The cost? A cool 1.5M, a transfer record at the time.

After one year of fund raising -bankrolled in no small part by my school lunch money- Fernando Morena finally arrived for the 1981-82 season. With him as Copa top scorer, Peñarol went on to beat Gremio, Sao Paulo, River Plate and the reigning champions: Zico's Flamengo. Waiting for them in the final, Cobreloa from the northern copper-mining/Atacama desert end of Chile.

The first leg was played in Montevideo: 0-0. The second leg in Chile was going the same way. Once again, Peñarol would be involved in a playoff. In the 89th minute, as the Argie commentator detailed the date and time for the playoff broadcast, his colleague reminded him this was Peñarol, and there were still 30 seconds left.

Then Morena happened.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Enjoying Anto's sales antics, honestly always equally impressive.

In terms of the central midfield we have Didi and Zito who are considered one of the greatest midfield duo in history and together they helped Brazil win two consecutive World Cups. In that '62 midfield Ramos was playing with Zozimo who was an equal player in terms of style to Tresor - where Tresor is a massive upgrade. We have Nilton Santos who was one of the most important members of the squad during these years and on the other side Carlos Alberto isn't far from Djalma Santos in terms of style and they are similar in quality.

Brazil had a fantastic defense these years and we've improved it even further by massively upgrading Zozimo with Tresor and of course by including Tigana who is one of the greatest box-to-box players ever. We have a better central midfield simply put, our attacking quarter of Didi, Rivelino, Jairzinho and Enzo are superior to Boninsegna, Altafini and Abaddie who are the three worst players on the pitch by a margin. With the lack of width from his left side Carlos Alberto will shrink more space and add another body against his strikers by tucking in until Facchetti is far up enough to provide width.

In which case there is a clear route to goal the second it is lost as Facchetti can't teleport to also mark Jairzinho.

Our left flank with Nilton Santos and Rivelino complements each other great as well, Rivelino likes tucking inside and Nilton loves dominating the flank and providing width. Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto up against a Facchetti without a winger to help him, even with support, will be a very clear route to chances and possible goals.

Rivelino's dribbling and playmaking is the reason he's considered one of the greatest players ever and he hasn't been noted much in the comments so far but he is definitely a match winner.


Mauro Ramos and Tresor are comfortably better as individuals than Bonninsegna and Altafini who they are facing, on the other side the Rivelino-Nilton flank has a clear advantage over Abaddie-Andrade one without the shadow of a doubt. Andrade, Nilton Santos and Rivelino are GOAT quality players - Abaddie isn't.

All in all we have the stronger left flank, the stronger right flank and the stronger central midfield.

I wouldn't say that myself and I myself conceded that Facchetti is better defensively than N.Santos, although they were on level footing all things considered. It's just that C.Alberto-Jairzinho make for a monstrous pairing and it's ultimately a pairing which scored two goals against Facchetti in the WC 1970 final.

C.Alberto is perfect for Jairzinho and a phenomenally complete FB, as he was comfortable venturing forward in a supporting manner when needed (not necessarily overlapping) and also was capable of staying back and dictating things, spraying the ball around. In the final, he played a brilliant supporting role, fully capitalising on the acres of space between Facchetti and Boninsegna*, whilst Facchetti was man-marking and was occupied with Jairzinho. Facchetti is being asked to shut down Jairzinho here and also to contribute to the attack (as he is the sole player on anto's left flank in his usual La Grande Inter role). Boninsegna can contribute to the flank dropping back but he was primarily a center forward and the further away from the goal he is, the better.



That's the intelligence of C.Alberto as I addressed above, he wasn't a Cafu/Dani Alves who had to burst forward to the byline to make an impact. He was much more cultured and calculated than that. He was a top notch supporting full-back who knew when to attack and when to dictate play from the back and was hardly, if ever, caught out of position.

This is in just the first 12 minutes of the match...

Carries forward the ball unopposed before being given plenty of room to cross

Once again finds plenty of room to look up and pick a pass

With Facchetti being occupied with Jairzinho yet again, he finds plenty of room to put in another cross

Plays a lovely through ball into the box

Tostao almost nicks in a fantastic driven low ball.

(Also notice how he mixes up low driven balls/crosses and high crosses (in fact he messes up the high ones but is spot on with the lower ones), so one doesn't have to be aerially dominant to take advantage of service from wider areas. Never really got that rhetoric anyway. Also Enzo wasn't too bad in the air, as you can see for yourself in the vid in the OP.)

You can check the first 12 minutes of the match yourself, if you find it hard to believe. If that isn't an area in which anto's system can't be exploited, nothing can ever be. Ultimately it was that flank which resulted in 2 of the 4 goals Brazil scored in the final. Almost every single attack went through there and C.Alberto did brilliantly to exploit that gaping hole with Jairzinho occupying Facchetti. Anto has better defensive cover here no doubt (with the likes of Goncalves, who still has to contend with Tigana mind), but leaving C.Alberto free for most of the game unattended, would be nothing short of criminal.

Once again, to quote Miguel Delaney.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Nilton Santos-Rivelino >>>> Abaddie-Andrade
Carlos Alberto-Jairzinho >>>> Facchetti
Did-Zito-Tigana >> Goncalves-Varela-Cubillas
Enzo<<<< Scirea-Figueroa
Mauro Ramos-Tresor >> Altafini-Boninsegna

Summary: Our left flank would dominate his through out the game, the right flank would be vastly superior as well and we'd be winning the central midfield battle. His central defense is clearly a match too big for Enzo while our Altafini and Boninsegna are clearly the worst players on the pitch with Abaddie.

Easieast routes to goal is Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto dominating the right flank, but also Rivelino who when he cuts inside has Nilton Santos on the overlap - while Enzo and Jairzinho are making runs in the box. Also Didi is notorious for his passing range and that was seen when he played with Garrincha and constantly fed him balls behind the opponents full backs which Garrincha went on to convert to goals. Jairzinho will be doing the same thing here.

 

[antohan]

It's like talking with a brickwall this. I show you Mauro Ramos is a disaster waiting to happen, I provide clear evidence of it, yet you keep dishing out the same load of crap.

So, let's see:

• Nilton Santos-Rivelino vs. Abbadie-Andrade: Mine is a proven pair for club and country, yours isn't. Abbadie was instrumental in keeping a clean sheet against Real madrid over two legs: the man on his flank being Gento, sometimes doubling up with Amancio and still getting no joy. I'm not at all worried there. Furthermore, Rivelino tends to drift to the inside left space, as does Didí in attack, and Francescoli as well. Clusterfeck of players trying to make something happen in between Varela-Scirea-Andrade (all proven together for club and country) and Scirea (who is an upgrade on anyone they ever played with. feck ALL HAPPENING HERE.

• Carlos Alberto-Jairzinho vs. Facchetti: has been done to death, it's getting old, tired and boring as feck. Everyone can see right through it and knows: 1. that the 2v1 is a figment of your imagination, 2. that Facchetti will provide an outlet in attack despite your wishes that he doesn't. If he ever got caught out (momentarily) Gonçalves and Figueroa are superb cover.

• Did (???)-Zito-Tigana vs. Gonçalves-Varela-Abbadie and Cubillas: I explained this all the way back in the OP, they are a good match for each other and the differences between them usually are differences that wouldn't result in a swap, horses for courses and all that.

• Enzo vs. Scirea and Figueroa: good to see you finally admit isn't a contest. Crucially, you don't have a centreforward presence that can keep my CBs troubled and provide the option of an aerial route, knock downs, hold up play... Nope, nothing of the sort of thing which Pelé executed at the very highest level to make that 70s side tick. You are playing the 74 vintage, basically, I can handle that effortlessly.

• Mauro Ramos and Tresor vs. Boninsegna and Altafini: I've said all day Altafini will keep Tresor busy and on his toes, the issue primarily is Boninsegna is tearing a new arsehole into Mauro Ramos. That will lead to goals, be it through Boninsegna or Altafini being first to a loose ball with his great poaching instincts.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Mauro Ramos will comfortably keep Boninsegna quiet all game, especially with no threat for Carlos Alberto who can tuck inside and make it Alberto-Ramos-Tresor in a tight line shutting out all possible ways through for Boninsegna and Altafini.

On the right Nilton Santos will dominate Abaddie all game and there won't be any chances coming from there, except when Abaddie loses the ball and Nilton Santos goes on a counter-attack.

Centrally Tigana-Zito and Didi will shut out space for Cubillas, Varela and Goncalves doesn't have the passing range to threaten in any way. All while Enzo is looking for the counter with loads of space out wide where he loved to drift too which will drag the centre back out of position and open up space to attack.

Our central midfield is vastly more solid defensively than yours where Cubillas is more of a second striker with poor work rate off the ball and you've given instructions for Goncalves to help Facchetti - which means Varela will be the lone CM trying to mark the best creative central midfielder in history in Didi - as well as one of the best box-to-box midfielders in history in Tigana.

Your team just poses no threat at all with Boninsegna-Altafini up against vastly superior defenders like Mauro Ramos, Tresor and Carlos Alberto. While our team won't dominate your centre backs - you will be completely dominated everywhere else on the pitch and there will be way too many chances and when Jairzinho, Rivelino and Didi have beaten your men and are running at your defense there will be plenty of chances through the game.

Jairzinho, Rivelino, Didi and Enzo are all goalscorers and with the domination elsewhere they'll show up on the score board.

 

[antohan]

Mauro Ramos will comfortably keep Boninsegna quiet all game, especially with no threat for Carlos Alberto who can tuck inside and make it Alberto-Ramos-Tresor in a tight line shutting out all possible ways through for Boninsegna and Altafini.

Wait, what? I thought Carlos Alberto was doubling up on Facchetti! Does he magically teleport himself back + doesn't need to mind Facchetti down his flank while he covers Mauro who is probably having a go at playing striker?

I watched only ten minutes of a game and he went walkabout three times. Leave Tresor alone with Boninsegna and Altafini three times every ten minutes and you are facing a basketball scoreline. Worse, the more I score the more you ahve to push forward and really need to go walkabout and I keep punishing you.

Then I go check on Masopust's goal and there he is going walkabout again and leaving behind the acres of space Masopust receives in. Masopust, the best midfielder int hat World Cup, what sort of CB steps out of the box and completely ignores he is running in behind his back? A shite one, clearly. That was the opener, he was lucky the forwards could outscore the Czechs. You will struggle to replicate that here though.

On the right Nilton Santos will dominate Abaddie all game and there won't be any chances coming from there, except when Abaddie loses the ball and Nilton Santos goes on a counter-attack.

The way Gento and Amancio couldn't? These are legit wingers, one is arguably the most successful left winger ever, and you are saying an attacking fullback will do better? Moreover, Nilton could count on a very hardworking Zagallo helping him out defensively in a way Rivelino won't.

This really just reads like a personal wishlist of yours. Like you are writing your letter to Santa early and promising to be a good boy.

Centrally Tigana-Zito and Didi will shut out space for Cubillas, Varela and Goncalves doesn't have the passing range to threaten in any way.

You are making shit up again. I demonstrated extensively that Cubillas is exactly what I need. Differently from your tonnes of inconsequential crossing GIFs, I showed how Gonçalves was directly involved in three out of four goals in a Libertadores final.

Can't pass my arse. And then there's Figueroa, Scirea and Abbadie to boot.

All while Enzo is looking for the counter with loads of space out wide where he loved to drift too which will drag the centre back out of position and open up space to attack.

Where exactly? Wait, you don't even pretend to have a striker any more . You are never going to score that way and, if you don't score you can't win.

Our central midfield is vastly more solid defensively than yours where Cubillas is more of a second striker with poor work rate off the ball and you've given instructions for Goncalves to help Facchetti - which means Varela will be the lone CM trying to mark the best creative central midfielder in history in Didi - as well as one of the best box-to-box midfielders in history in Tigana.

Are you soft? I explained this before, there's a central axis of THREE MIDFIELDERS (Gonçalves, Varela and Abbadie). If the play is flowing down the left, they move along there in a disciplined way. If it is on the right, likewise. Basic defensive organisation and midfield shape, executed by experts at doing it, experts that played together or (in Tito's and Varela's case) were cut from the same cloth and trained in the same philosophy.

My midfield is nothing like the disarray you are daydreaming about, your backline is in such disarray. Poor Tresor can't believe the nutter he has been paired with.

I just read yout hen went on again about Ramos and Tresor stopping my strikers. Can't be arsed, you are completely pointless.

 

[antohan]

The year is 1987. Morena has long retired and Peñarol has had to sell all of its best players, two of those have just won the Libertadores with River Plate. The club is bankrupt so it keeps selling and promotes the entire reserve side, with Tito Jr. and Matosas Jr. among them.

Average age of the squad: 22

They also hire a young up and coming manager who had done marvels bringing through Francescoli at Montevideo Wanderers, one by the name of Óscar Washington Tabárez.

Somehow, the kids manage to knock out everyone on their path, including current champions River Plate. They reach the final where they meet América de Cali, funded by the Cali cartel at the time and packed with glittering stars from all over South America. This is their third final in a row, they've lost the last two so third time lucky?

First game in Colombia, Peñarol lose 2-0 and we get our arse kicked, could have been far more. Back at home, they go behind to a goal by Roberto Cabañas. It's over, surely. On the 68th minute, Diego Aguirre (22) gets the equaliser. With three minutes to go we get a free kick, you could cut the atmosphere with a knife. But 20-year old Jorge "The Bomber" Villar seems oblivious to it all, runs up like a veteran and scores the winner.

Bedlam, I've never seen the Centenario erupt like that.

So once again Peñarol has to go play a final in Santiago, but this time a draw favours Cali: they MUST win. 45 mins, nothing. 90 mins, nothing. 105 mins, nothing. On the verge of the 119th minute a shot by Villar grazes the post.

The Colombians enter the pitch celebrating, they think it's all over! The rest of my family agree, as they stand up and leave. But there I stay dangerously pressing a screwdriver between my legs and against the wooden top of my chair, keep banging it like a woodpecker. The mark is still there.

As the clock in the stadium marked 119:42, wham! bam!, Diego Aguirre scores. The Colombians can't believe it, the Chileans can as it's the third time they see the same story unfold before their eyes: Peñarol are Libertadores champions, again.

The sub at the beginning is Matosas Jr. The very first player showing up is Little Tito, the spitting image of his dad . He would go on to, among other things, win a derby 1-0 after spending 20mins in nets since the goalie got sent off and all subs had been used. Within three years that entire generation had been dismembered and sold to clubs in Europe, Mexico and others.

As my family heard my screams they ran back to see the goal, but they couldn't get in. The door was locked and from the inside I kept yelling: "You are not worthy, you of little faith!". That was the last time I cried my eyeballs off watching Peñarol. Almost 30 years ago now, FML. It's painful to watch them these days.

I don't, I watch United, is it any wonder why?

 

[diarm]

Incredible win for Anto here. Brilliantly argued and will be very hard to beat from here on in. Hard luck Joga, that is an extraordinary side to be going out in the first round.

 

[antohan]

THE WEIGHT OF HISTORY

 

[Moby]

Tough luck @Joga Bonito . Congrats @antohan .

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good game @antohan

 

[antohan]

you are winning!!! absolutely brilliant job so far! you are a legend

Thanks mate, didn't reply earlier as my heart stopped with every bump. I actually lost two votes posting my gifs last night

Incredible win for Anto here. Brilliantly argued and will be very hard to beat from here on in. Hard luck Joga, that is an extraordinary side to be going out in the first round.

Cheers mate, wouldn't be too worried about me, my upgrade path is likely to be a complete clusterfeck as my link to Schiaffino is only active in this reinforcement so I'll be heading towards the 80s sides.

Well played @Joga Bonito, it was a shame we couldn't face each other at full strength/with a complete theme. That would have been epic. Mind, I sense it would have drifted away from the Brazil theme so maybe this was the best time to make it a proper derby.

@Annahnomoss, feck off you thick m*therf*cker

Special mention to my Italian contingent for fitting in so seamlessly.

 

[antohan]

Agent Enzo just walked into the changing rooms to joins the celebrations.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Mind, I sense it would have drifted away from the Brazil theme so maybe this was the best time to make it a proper derby.

Meh, our probable next pick would have probably made the side more Brazilian 1970-esque. It's a shame that 'that player' won't be joining the party now . Reckon he could have done quite the Pele 1970 impersonation.

 

[antohan]

Meh, our probable next pick would have probably made the side more Brazilian 1970-esque. It's a shame that 'that player' won't be joining the party now . Reckon he could have done quite the Pele 1970 impersonation.

Hmmm... intriguing. Who are your leads? Enzo, Tigana, Tresor, Jairzinho.... ????

I thought you would have found Ruggeri for Ramos and Schuster in midfield irresistible.

I told you the moment you picked Enzo you would need a proper top class centreforward sooner or later. Just happened sooner.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Hmmm... intriguing. Who are your leads? Enzo, Tigana, Tresor, Jairzinho.... ????

Tresor.

I told you the moment you picked Enzo you would need a proper top class centreforward sooner or later

Come on .

 

[antohan]

Tresor.

Come on .

I did though, upon being asked whether he could play as striker (followed by video clip sending, etc.):

He did, and my favourite version of him was that one actually. It was a shame he was such a hard-working and determined all-rounder so ended up being a free-role #10 Cruyff type running around everywhere on the pitch to exert his influence. Terrific finisher.

The only reason I would get a "proper striker" is for aerial dominance (he wasn't too shabby, mind). You would have a hard time finding someone worth upgrading him for though.

The upgrade part I stand by, someone like him but also aerially dominant? i.e. someone like Pelé? There's a reason there's only one Pelé!

 

[Cutch]

Best win in Caf draft history.

Anto, will u defend me if for whatever reason I ever end up in court?

 

[Moby]

 

[Annahnomoss]

Great win Antohan, congrats! You could sell crap as gold and people would happily buy it.

 

[Moby]

THE WEIGHT OF HISTORY

That is one amazing picture, by the way, speaks volumes.

 

[antohan]

Best win in Caf draft history.

Anto, will u defend me if for whatever reason I ever end up in court?

Epic win!

No worries, mate, you are in goood hands.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@antohan you're so god damn hard to play against

 

[antohan]

Great win Antohan, congrats! You could sell crap as gold and people would happily buy it.

The better TEAM won, I've absolutely noo doubt about it. Coherent across the board, familiar with each other, well drilled and disciplined, all familiar with their roles and those performed by their counterparts...

You had a mouthwatering side that fell on its arse the moment it had a horrendous CB pairing (not really Tresor's fault, you should have got Bellini if you were dipping into that vintage) and an attack that lacked an integral component of what made it work.

I'm sure it's not lost on you that the two goals you kept banging on about where aassisted by Edson... who wasn't on the pitch.

It just broke up at absolutely critical junctures.

 

[Moby]

You had a mouthwatering side that fell on its arse the moment it had a horrendous CB pairing (not really Tresor's fault, you should have got Bellini if you were dipping into that vintage) and an attack that lacked an integral component of what made it work.

A great Brazilian-based team suffering due to lack of great strikers and CBs? Sounds familiar.

Great win Antohan, congrats! You could sell crap as gold and people would happily buy it.

More like unearthed gems whose value wasn't appreciated. But then, as they say, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

The better TEAM won, I've absolutely noo doubt about it. Coherent across the board, familiar with each other, well drilled and disciplined, all familiar with their roles and those performed by their counterparts...

You had a mouthwatering side that fell on its arse the moment it had a horrendous CB pairing (not really Tresor's fault, you should have got Bellini if you were dipping into that vintage) and an attack that lacked an integral component of what made it work.

I'm sure it's not lost on you that the two goals you kept banging on about where aassisted by Edson... who wasn't on the pitch.

It just broke up at absolutely critical junctures.

A striker more suitable for this formation/match than Enzo and I'd might have gone the other way, but I just couldn't see past your defensive build. Well done.

 

[Annahnomoss]

A great Brazilian-based team suffering due to lack of great strikers and CBs? Sounds familiar.


More like unearthed gems whose value wasn't appreciated. But then, as they say, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.

Yup, agreed. Brazils second best centre back of all-time together with Tresor who is one of the better defenders of all-time is very comparable to the type of centre back partnerships they usually sport. Enzo as well is a crappy striker and of course Altafini, Boninsegna and Abaddie are the unearthed heroes who would perform better than Tresor/Ramos/Enzo.

I hope we see more of Altafini, Boninsegna and Abaddie in these drafts as they are certainly up there with the best in their positions while Tresor/Ramos shouldn't feature again due to being weak. But maybe in a different setting they could do a job if they faced a lesser threat than the great Altafini and Boninsegna who for an All-time draft is the cream of the crop.

 

[Moby]

Brazils second best centre back of all-time

According to who?

I'll personally don't mind giving that 'title' to Thiago Silva, though it hardly means anything, not like Brazil is famous for producing top CBs.

 

[Moby]

I hope we see more of Altafini, Boninsegna and Abaddie in these drafts as they are certainly up there with the best in their positions while Tresor/Ramos shouldn't feature again due to being weak. But maybe in a different setting they could do a job if they faced a lesser threat than the great Altafini and Boninsegna who for an All-time draft is the cream of the crop.

Never took you for such a sore loser, Annah.

 

[Balu]

According to who?

I'll personally don't mind giving that 'title' to Thiago Silva, though it hardly means anything, not like Brazil is famous for producing top CBs.

From what I've seen, I'd rather play Carlos Alberto or Djalma at centerback, than any of Brazil's centerbacks bar Da Guia. I actually think Lucio's peak is a bit underrated, he might have a shot at 2nd best Brazilian centerback for his longevity. Thiago Silva's peak looks rather short at the moment and his brainfart at the World Cup means he also lacks any impact at the biggest stage. But maybe I'm biased in regards to Lucio, always loved him.

 

[crappycraperson]

Best win in Caf draft history.

Anto, will u defend me if for whatever reason I ever end up in court?

Yes. I thought he had no chance against the monster team Joga/Annah had.

 

[Moby]

From what I've seen, I'd rather play Carlos Alberto or Djalma at centerback, than any of Brazil's centerbacks bar Da Guia. I actually think Lucio's peak is a bit underrated, he might have a shot at 2nd best Brazilian centerback for his longevity. Thiago Silva's peak looks rather short at the moment and his brainfart at the World Cup means he also lacks any impact at the biggest stage. But maybe I'm biased in regards to Lucio, always loved him.

Yeah, great shouts there. The field as always is wide open after Domingos but if going for a back 4 in an all time XI, it is definitely a good idea to stick Alberto at CB with the two Santos as fullbacks.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'll personally don't mind giving that 'title' to Thiago Silva, though it hardly means anything, not like Brazil is famous for producing top CBs.

Or Lucio, for that matter. Another World Cup winning CB.

Anyway, anto no doubt went overboard with portraying him as an utter mug, but I don't think we can classify him as a great player by any stretch. Decent CB in this context, miles off what anto sported, though - and would have needed a giant (not "just" a bloody good player, but a GOAT of some description) alongside him in order to be truly sell-able here.

 

[Annahnomoss]

According to who?

I'll personally don't mind giving that 'title' to Thiago Silva, though it hardly means anything, not like Brazil is famous for producing top CBs.

Hadn't thought about Thiago Silva, but I rate him highly as well. With a Brazil all-time eleven you are looking for one person to partner Domingos Da Guia who is almost always included and rightfully so. Then the question on who to play next to him is often between Luis Pereira and Mauro Ramos with Bellini, Aldair and Orlando close behind. For romantics a lot of people choose to play Carlos Alberto as the centre-back as he as a full-back exceeded the level of influence of the rest even if he wasn't that good as a centre-back.

That is in line with the conclusion of Placar Magazines;
It is from a 1996 edition of the Brazilian magazine PLACAR. They conducted a survey of 64 journalists, former players and coaches to create the team.

"Carlos Alberto (defense)
He played only one WC, in 1970. But in the mind of the fans, that was the image of the eternal captain of the tri. Therefore, despite the victory of Djalma Santos in his original position (right full-back), Carlos Alberto was elected the defender. His 30 votes exceeded Mauro Ramos (12 votes), Bellini (11), Luis Pereira (10), Aldair and Orlando (8 each).

Domingos da Guia (defense)
In terms of defenders, Domingos da Guia was so absolute in Brazil that to take a companion to the height, it was necessary to move Carlos Alberto Torres to defense. It is no coincidence that he left all other competitors eating dust. He prefer playing than 'big shoots'. And for those who asked him the secret of so much peace, he replied: "I go by the shortcut"."

 

[antohan]

A great Brazilian-based team suffering due to lack of great strikers and CBs? Sounds familiar.

It's not just the '82 side, it's the bane of their existence. When did they win? Pelé x3 (well, x2 + Amarildo) + Romario + Ronaldo. Go figure.

And then they host a World Cup with Fred upfront.

 

[Gio]

I'd like to have heard more about Mauro Ramos and why he is so well regarded. Anto's criticism of him was a little flimsy, but it wasn't that well refuted frankly. That's the problem with those sorts of players, you struggle to defend or praise given the lack of evidence kicking about.

From what I've seen, I'd rather play Carlos Alberto or Djalma at centerback, than any of Brazil's centerbacks bar Da Guia. I actually think Lucio's peak is a bit underrated, he might have a shot at 2nd best Brazilian centerback for his longevity. Thiago Silva's peak looks rather short at the moment and his brainfart at the World Cup means he also lacks any impact at the biggest stage. But maybe I'm biased in regards to Lucio, always loved him.

Djalma in the middle with Da Guia would be a strong option. I rate Silva highly and it showed how much Brazil depended upon him in their implosion against Germany.

 

[antohan]

Yup, agreed. Brazils second best centre back of all-time together with Tresor who is one of the better defenders of all-time is very comparable to the type of centre back partnerships they usually sport.

Tresor is great. Mauro isn't and therein lies the problem, nothing to do with poor Marius.

Second best my arse. Seriously, did you watch those gifs I posted? It's comical defending, it reminded me of a certain Fefo Eyzaguirre. Complete lack of awareness and positioning.

Enzo as well is a crappy striker

Never said that, not once.

and of course Altafini, Boninsegna and Abaddie are the unearthed heroes who would perform better than Tresor/Ramos/Enzo.

I originally planned to play Hohberg and one of Altafini or Boninsegna, just because I'm stubborn like that. Then I saw the draw and dropped him straight away, not that he wasn't deserving but Boninsegna had the physicality and aerial prowess I needed, while Altafini had the pace (and demonstrable pace, which I suspected would be important). Hohberg was neither here nor there. Tremendous forward and goalscorer but his prime was in front 5s and his mark was his movement and ability to create space for him and others. In a countering side with two strikers that's a bit surplus to requirements, you need specialists. Yes, he did a splendid solo job against the Magyars but that was pretty extraordinary.

I hope we see more of Altafini, Boninsegna and Abaddie in these drafts as they are certainly up there with the best in their positions while Tresor/Ramos shouldn't feature again due to being weak. But maybe in a different setting they could do a job if they faced a lesser threat than the great Altafini and Boninsegna who for an All-time draft is the cream of the crop.

AFAIC Mauro Ramos is as untouchable as Philippe Mexes, that's how highly I rate him. He is simply not a defender.

Abaddie is staying there for keepers. Altafini and Boninssegna are unfortunately taking up roles where Peñarol has some absolutely corking players so they'll make way eventually. I'm happy to play have them though, proper players with clearly recognisable traits and ways to put them to good use.

 

[crappycraperson]

I'd like to have heard more about Mauro Ramos and why he is so well regarded. Anto's criticism of him was a little flimsy, but it wasn't that well refuted frankly. That's the problem with those sorts of players, you struggle to defend or praise given the lack of evidence kicking about.


Djalma in the middle with Da Guia would be a strong option. I rate Silva highly and it showed how much Brazil depended upon him in their implosion against Germany.

Didn't @Balu pick mauro ramos once and that went swimmingly well. Yet here anto pulled off a real number on him. It is a bit absurd IMO. Even if he is average, he is playing next to Tresor, Santos and Alberto. That is a mighty fine back 4.