Alphonso Davies | Verbally agreed to join Real Madrid

[NoPace]

I honestly think their midfield will struggle in the future against teams sitting back. In transitions and a back and forth kind of game, they will outrun, outmuscle and outhustle anyone. But against a team that's comfortable sitting back and is happy with a 0-0? I don't know. They need to bring in another more technical, ball-controlling midfielder once both Kroos and Modric are gone.

Davies and Vinicius are a terrifying force down the left. But their team seems a bit misbalanced to me with no real right wing specialist there. Valverde can play anywhere but he's best being a box to box guy.

Yeah but they probably will. They might even produce one, being Spanish and having a decent academy.

But I could see them buying Joao Neves, who seems to fit the bill. They're not just going to let Modric and Kroos go without signing a passing midfielder in a couple years, and there aren't too many holes in the squad and the ones there (Joselu is old, a RB soon to replace Carvajal, another CB) are all ones that shouldn't break the bank.

They can also just play Bellingham as a #10, throw on a RW and should be just fine at breaking teams down that come to park the bus.

 

[daba]

He should fit nicely with Camavinga covering for him out left. Feels like Madrid will look for a RB who can pass, as they are moving towards having a very powerful midfield and getting their playmaking elsewhere, bit like Klopp's Liverpool:


Vinicius-------------------------Mbappe
----------------Bellingham----------------
------Camavinga--------Valverde-----
Davies-----Tchouameni-------------RB
-------------Alaba-----Militao------------
-----------------Courtois--------------------

or if Endrick (or Guler) is the business then he's probably on the right, Bellingham is in the 3 and one of Camavinga or Valverde comes off the bench. Wouldn't rule out a year of Valverde at RB if there's no obvious RB to buy and I'm not sure there really is one. Real shortage of world-class RBs apart from Hakimi out there. If Porro had less than 4 years left on his contract I'd say him, but maybe in 2 years.

They really are annoyingly well-run. I know it's easy when everyone good wants to go there, but still.

I wonder if Trent would be tempted? 1 year left, Klopp leaving, Salah leaving…

 

[RG77]

I honestly think their midfield will struggle in the future against teams sitting back. In transitions and a back and forth kind of game, they will outrun, outmuscle and outhustle anyone. But against a team that's comfortable sitting back and is happy with a 0-0? I don't know. They need to bring in another more technical, ball-controlling midfielder once both Kroos and Modric are gone.

Davies and Vinicius are a terrifying force down the left. But their team seems a bit misbalanced to me with no real right wing specialist there. Valverde can play anywhere but he's best being a box to box guy.

Not sure I agree with that. Look at the games this season. We mostly play against teams that sit back deep and need to break them down. This has so far not been an issue. Vini, Jude, Cama, Carvajal: creating chances has not been a problem. Finishing those chances has been at times when Jude or Vini aren’t playing. But even then Brahim or Valverde or a corner could fix the issue.

Controlling in midfield I would agree with. That is what Kroos provides. We’ve seen it multiple times. He comes on and suddenly we are cruising in midfield. That is something I want Camavinga to take over, but not sure he can.

 

[giorno]

Our midfield has consistently looked disjointed and lost without either Kroos or Modric on the pitch. Of the young'uns Fede is a lock but will never be that type of player, Tchou has so far been disappointing and better as a CB and Camavinga is still too young and green to be a midfield general(though he does seem to possess the skillset and mentality for it at least, so it might just be a matter of waiting for him to mature)

 

[Red Pumpkin]

I’d forgotten what that’s like

Valencia, although much more a perfect work horse like Zanetti, was the last one for Manchester United right?

Can't remember anyone else for United to be honest. Evra was very good but more like Lahm, a LB with overlap but not capable of owning the whole flank. Neville falls into the same category. Never saw much of Irwin so can't speak on him.

 

[eire-red]

Not defending the Glazers here but it's significantly more difficult for PL clubs to just "transition" from winning team to winning team without a big drop off.

I totally agree with your point. Barcelona is the prime example there. They wouldn't finish in the Top 4 in the prem I think, but are still always top 2/3 in Spain, managed to win La Liga in an off-season from Madrid and are guaranteed CL football unless they are truly terrible.

However, you have to admit that it is still impressive to phase out one of the greatest teams of this century and within 3/4 seasons it looks like you're putting together another powerhouse of a team, with world class quality in every position and a perfect age profile too.

 

[2 man midfield]

Valencia, although much more a perfect work horse like Zanetti, was the last one for Manchester United right?

Can't remember anyone else for United to be honest. Evra was very good but more like Lahm, a LB with overlap but not capable of owning the whole flank. Neville falls into the same category. Never saw much of Irwin so can't speak on him.

I was thinking more Evra, but yeah Valencia could do it at times. He never really put it all together at the same time though. He was an amazing winger who got the yips, so moved to right back but couldn’t defend. Then he learnt how to defend, and he’d have an amazing game every now and again but was still poor going forward.

 

[2 man midfield]

Dalot is getting there - he's also rapid and has a great engine. The last time, however, must have been when Valencia transitioned into a fullback. Before that we had Evra at his prime, but it's definitely been a while...

I’d love to see prime paddy in this team now. He never got injured either.

 

[Rossa]

Valencia, although much more a perfect work horse like Zanetti, was the last one for Manchester United right?

Can't remember anyone else for United to be honest. Evra was very good but more like Lahm, a LB with overlap but not capable of owning the whole flank. Neville falls into the same category. Never saw much of Irwin so can't speak on him.

Evra definitely had that ability - amazing engine only bettered by Valencia. I think it was Evra who said Valencia swallowed an engine.

 

[Rossa]

I’d love to see prime paddy in this team now. He never got injured either.

He was amazing. I felt he was underrated at his time, and arguably still a little underrated and even under appreciated. He was brilliant bringing the ball out from the back. Amazing timing in his attacking runs, but his final ball was a little lacking. He was also surprisingly good in the air. His acceleration was incredible, only bested by Lennon as far as I can remember, and he had a strong engine to relentlessly get up and down the pitch.

On top of that, he was a great character and a fairly strong leader on the pitch.

 

[Acrobat7]

Theo Hernandez is so much better than Davies.

This would be his ideal replacement/upgrade at Bayern.
Allegedly Davies is asking for €20m a year and there is no chance he should be earnign that much. Not after the last 2 to 3 seasons he has had.

 

[JediSith]

How is this not tapping up if he doesn't join till next year?

I get it happens but how have Bayern not kicked off about this at Madrid?

Rules don’t apply to Real Madrid. Even FFP doesn’t seem to apply. They revamped their stadium and still spending like they just got taken over by a gulf state before FFP came into place.

 

[giorno]

Not defending the Glazers here but it's significantly more difficult for PL clubs to just "transition" from winning team to winning team without a big drop off.

That's an excuse. City aren't having any trouble at all

 

[kouroux]

Davies strengths are his speed and attacking quality. Defensively he has several weaknesses which his speed often cover up.
That's why Bayern isn't really putting up a fight to keep him. He asked to more than double his wages to sign an extension.

It's not just about Davies but I'm talking about the rest of the team being more balanced overall

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Rules don’t apply to Real Madrid. Even FFP doesn’t seem to apply. They revamped their stadium and still spending like they just got taken over by a gulf state before FFP came into place.

Don't think infrastructure falls under FFP? The fact their commercial revenue is enormous helps I guess.

 

[Zehner]

Rules don’t apply to Real Madrid. Even FFP doesn’t seem to apply. They revamped their stadium and still spending like they just got taken over by a gulf state before FFP came into place.

They are actually quite frugal for a club of their size. Here are their net spents according to transfermarket.de:

2023: -122m
2022: +12m
2021: +47m
2020: +108m
2019: -220m
2018: -28m
2017: +92m
2016: +7m
2015: -75m
2014: -14m
2013: -62m

Over the last 10 years, they had an average net spent of €25.5m.

Don't think infrastructure falls under FFP? The fact their commercial revenue is enormous helps I guess.

I was curious and researched a bit but the sources weren't really helpful. I asked ChatGPT instead and it said that expenditures for infrastructure are indeed relevant to FFP but the UEFA will be more lenient there since such investments have a long term horizon unlike most transfer businesses.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I was curious and researched a bit but the sources weren't really helpful. I asked ChatGPT instead and it said that expenditures for infrastructure are indeed relevant to FFP but the UEFA will be more lenient there since such investments have a long term horizon unlike most transfer businesses.

A basic "does infrastructure expense count towards FFP" search brings back unanimously that it doesn't.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Madrid team looking like a cheat code

 

[Zehner]

A basic "does infrastructure expense count towards FFP" search brings back unanimously that it doesn't.

Okay, I was curious and did some proper research now

As I learned, investments in infrastructure indeed aren't included in the calculation of football earnings (spanning only football relevant revenues and costs). Those generally have to be positive to be in accordance with the UEFA FFP requirements. However, there's an "acceptable deviation" which means that clubs are temporarily allowed to lose up to €5m over an accounting period. That can even be increased to up to €60m by various different measures, one of which being investments in infrastructure. So the UEFA will actually give clubs which invest in stadiums etc. more leeway.

However, FFP aside, there's still the UEFA club licensing that requires clubs to hand in detailed cash flow statements. Those aren't reduced to football operations and since investments in infrastructure consume much liquidity, this will still limit the amount you can spend on players significantly.

 

[Red Pumpkin]

Evra definitely had that ability - amazing engine only bettered by Valencia. I think it was Evra who said Valencia swallowed an engine.

Evra sure has a way with words, haha. That about sums it up. Evra was very fast and had a great engine but that guy Valencia was made out of God knows what.

I remember when Ribéry was 25 and by far the fastest player at Bayern. Then Robben arrived and Ribéry looked "slow" in comparison! Fortunately for Bayern and Ribéry the frenchman actually was a #10 in skill set that happened to play out wide so as he got older and injured he could still be extremely effective. A bit like how Evra was better than Valencia despite being lesser physically.

 

[JB08]

What an incredible rebuild for Madrid in the past 3 years. Ridiculous really.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

That's an excuse. City aren't having any trouble at all

I suspect it’s a lot easier when you don’t play by the rules. Using a club with 115 charges against them isn’t the best example.

 

[giorno]

I suspect it’s a lot easier when you don’t play by the rules. Using a club with 115 charges against them isn’t the best example.

They can do it because they have the money to do it(regardless of breaking the rules). The same applies to Madrid. If you have the money, and are smart about it, it's not that difficilt to cycle through successful teams quickly. We still had a 3 year spell between 2018 and 2021 where we were clearly a few levels below what came before or after.

Having a genuine off season and still being able to qualify for CL is a slightly different argument and one that does work with the league comparison in the last 5 years or so

 

[GatoLoco]

They can do it because they have the money to do it(regardless of breaking the rules). The same applies to Madrid. If you have the money, and are smart about it, it's not that difficilt to cycle through successful teams quickly. We still had a 3 year spell between 2018 and 2021 where we were clearly a few levels below what came before or after.

Having a genuine off season and still being able to qualify for CL is a slightly different argument and one that does work with the league comparison in the last 5 years or so

I don't agree about the comparison with City because of two main reasons. The first is that in Madrid's case a big part of the renewal has been based on youngsters and players waiting until the last year of their contracts and as a consequence the net spending has been surprisingly low for a top European club in the last years. I was very critical of Florentino for this lack of investment in the past but I have to admit that, at least on paper, time seems to have proved him right, at least for now.

The second reason is that City is at the peak of its maturity at the moment and we are yet to see if Madrid can actually build a successful team as we have numerous precedents of squads that count on great names but fail to transfer expectations towards titles in a sustained way.

 

[Malkovich]

Having an extra winger as a fullback is not going to help Madrid. They need someone stabilizing the inside more with Vinicius being such a wide player and futurely Mbappe.

 

[giorno]

I don't agree about the comparison with City because of two main reasons. The first is that in Madrid's case a big part of the renewal has been based on youngsters and players waiting until the last year of their contracts and as a consequence the net spending has been surprisingly low for a top European club in the last years. I was very critical of Florentino for this lack of investment in the past but I have to admit that, at least on paper, time seems to have proved him right, at least for now.

I mean the guys are 60M Vinicius, 60M Rodrygo, 40M Camavinga, 50M Militao, 25M/year Alaba and Rudiger, 80M Tchouameni, 130M Bellingham...and we consistently have one of the highest wage bills in the sport. We've always spent a shitload of money, even during Covid

Agree about the second part of your post

 

[GatoLoco]

I mean the guys are 60M Vinicius, 60M Rodrygo, 40M Camavinga, 50M Militao, 25M/year Alaba and Rudiger, 80M Tchouameni, 130M Bellingham...and we consistently have one of the highest wage bills in the sport. We've always spent a shitload of money, even during Covid

Agree about the second part of your post

You are right about the wage bills, but in terms of the fees, relative to what other clubs have invested we fell far short. I mean, you just have to see the numbers.

 

[giorno]

You are right about the wage bills, but in terms of the fees, relative to what other clubs have invested we fell far short. I mean, you just have to see the numbers.

Net spend is a bullshit construct for people who don't understand how finances work

 

[MrEleson]

Net spend is a bullshit construct for people who don't understand how finances work

How do they work then

 

[MrEleson]

I mean the guys are 60M Vinicius, 60M Rodrygo, 40M Camavinga, 50M Militao, 25M/year Alaba and Rudiger, 80M Tchouameni, 130M Bellingham...and we consistently have one of the highest wage bills in the sport. We've always spent a shitload of money, even during Covid

Agree about the second part of your post

Wage bill in isolation doesn’t show the full picture though. For comparison, the wage bill at Madrid relative to revenue is less than Chelsea’s. Obviously, a club a successful as Madrid will generate more so will have more room on the wage bill.

 

[NoPace]

Having an extra winger as a fullback is not going to help Madrid. They need someone stabilizing the inside more with Vinicius being such a wide player and futurely Mbappe.

They have Alaba and Camavinga, so as long as they stick to the current formation with Vini left and Mbappe right and Bellingham as a false 9, they should be well-suited to have a winger at LB with Camavinga covering him.

 

[Rossa]

Evra sure has a way with words, haha. That about sums it up. Evra was very fast and had a great engine but that guy Valencia was made out of God knows what.

I remember when Ribéry was 25 and by far the fastest player at Bayern. Then Robben arrived and Ribéry looked "slow" in comparison! Fortunately for Bayern and Ribéry the frenchman actually was a #10 in skill set that happened to play out wide so as he got older and injured he could still be extremely effective. A bit like how Evra was better than Valencia despite being lesser physically.

Valencia truly had an immense engine. What was truly impressive about that was his sheer size. It's a whole different ballpark shifting his body up and down the pitch or doing it with half his muscle mass. In terms of speed, I can't recall him being beaten for pace even when he lost half a yard - I recall Sane trying a kick and run but lost interest after having no luck. Both would improve our team a lot.

 

[giorno]

How do they work then

There is no great correlation between transfer spend/net spend and league position. There is almost exact correlation between wage bill and league position. Teams spend *significantly* more money on wages than they do on transfer fees.

Sales are dictated by your quality of players. If you have great players you can sell, you are going to make more money off sales, and thus can keep your "net spend" lower. The implication is that, since you already had great players you could sell for a lot of money, you were already a great team. If I start with a Ferrari, sell it for 1M and buy a bugatti for 1.5M, my "net spend" would only be 500K and I now have a Bugatti. The guy starting with an Audi, who sells it for 100K and then buys a Porsche for 1M has a "net spend" of 900K. Much higher than mine right? Yet I have a Bugatti, and he has Porsche. Clear enough?

 

[giorno]

Wage bill in isolation doesn’t show the full picture though. For comparison, the wage bill at Madrid relative to revenue is less than Chelsea’s. Obviously, a club a successful as Madrid will generate more so will have more room on the wage bill.

Wage bill relative to revenue is an indication of spending power and financial health. It doesn't say anything about actual cost and correlation to performance. If I have the highest wage bill in the world, there's a very high probability I also have the best team in the world. That I'm only spending 10% of my revenue on it is irrelevant to this discussion

 

[Zehner]

Net spend is a bullshit construct for people who don't understand how finances work

Why? The depreciations of player licenses are one of the biggest cost factors for professional football clubs. Net spent gives you a quick overview when you don't have the time (or motivation) to go into more detail.

 

[Lyng]

Rules don’t apply to Real Madrid. Even FFP doesn’t seem to apply. They revamped their stadium and still spending like they just got taken over by a gulf state before FFP came into place.

We would have probably been in a similar situation if not for the glazers ruining the club.

 

[stefan92]

Why? The depreciations of player licenses are one of the biggest cost factors for professional football clubs. Net spent gives you a quick overview when you don't have the time (or motivation) to go into more detail.

@giorno is right in so far as net spend does say nothing about the squad quality and he made a good example why it doesn't matter to say anything about it. It is valuable as an indicator to how well a club is run, how well it retains and builds squad quality, but that's it.

 

[giorno]

Why? The depreciations of player licenses are one of the biggest cost factors for professional football clubs. Net spent gives you a quick overview when you don't have the time (or motivation) to go into more detail.

Let me rephrase: net spend means nothing when it comes to judging a club's success relative to expenditure. As it is often used it's also meaningless since it usually doesn't account for wages - usually by far the biggest expense a club has to make. And finally, it doesn't even account for how transfers are accounted by clubs. It only accoints for the movement of money(some money, not even all - refer to wages) instead of profits and losses - the actual things that impact finances

 

[Zehner]

@giorno is right in so far as net spend does say nothing about the squad quality and he made a good example why it doesn't matter to say anything about it. It is valuable as an indicator to how well a club is run, how well it retains and builds squad quality, but that's it.

Obviously, the net spend is a superficial statistic from an accounting perspective but it still correlates strongly with a very relevant position which is player license depreciations and player license depreciations do indeed limit how much you can spend on your wage bill. So if you identify the wage bill as a decisive factor and the budget you can allocate to the wage bill is limited by player license depreciations and player license depreciations correlate with the net spend, the net spend of course holds informational value. Suggesting that it is a "a bullshit construct for people who don't understand finances" is just an intentionally polarizing statement.

Moreover, I would even put forward the hypothesis that net spend definitely does correlate with squad quality as well as team success. If not at the very top of pyramid, then at the very least the further you move down the table.

 

[Zehner]

Let me rephrase: net spend means nothing when it comes to judging a club's success relative to expenditure. As it is often used it's also meaningless since it usually doesn't account for wages - usually by far the biggest expense a club has to make. And finally, it doesn't even account for how transfers are accounted by clubs. It only accoints for the movement of money(some money, not even all - refer to wages) instead of profits and losses - the actual things that impact finances

When you only look at clubs with similar budgets, player license depreciations directly correlate with the wage bill (albeit in a negative way). And player license depreciations correlate with the net spend of a club so you can't look at one of them in isolation.

Moreover, the whole thing isn't linear. There is probably a sweet spot which share of your budget you should allocate to player depreciations as investing 0 in transfer fees will definitely affect the club in a negative matter.