Anyone else sick of watching this boring rubbish?

RedPnutz

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This is reasonable. I don't disagree with any of that. And as I've said before, I'll take an excellent - but dull - rebuild job on LVG's part, chalking that up to necessity and looking at the big picture. I have absolutely no issue with such an outlook.

What gets on my tits, however, and increasingly so - is when people on here badger honest United fans for voicing their frustration over the football on display. It's not a matter of "pragmatic", or "dull but efficient", or even "bland" - it's beyond that. And that is why said fans react. I'm not talking about sheer idiots who demand instant success and brilliant displays every week. What we've seen over the last month or so is that an entirely different set of fans on here have began to voice their dismay. Brushing this aside as knee-jerkism or hysteria is uncalled for.

LVG is what he is. And as long as he keeps the ship floating, I will never call for his head. What you touch on above is precisely what I keep telling myself: If the board has hired him to oversee a certain - ahem - process, then so be it. Let him do that - and let a very different beast emerge once he's done. But I'm not fine with people rationalizing the sort of football we've seen far too often under him as being a necessary byproduct of the job he's doing.

There's a tendency among LVG's staunchest supporters on here to just flat out deny the reality of what others are seeing when we play: You can't rationalize away the fact that fellow fans find it near insufferable to watch us play. It may be that these people have a very different idea about "entertainment", or very different expectations as to what is acceptable for Manchester United to offer on the pitch - and that's fine. But don't go about acting as though everyone else is simply acting "entitled". It doesn't wash given the scale of the thing, and the fact that fans from radically different subsets are expressing the same views.

I'm not singling you out with this, let me be clear on that - I was just using your quote as the starting point for a rant.
I understand where you are coming from and it is inevitable that more fans will become more dissenting if the performance continues to be tumescent. Though few and far between, we have seen glimpses that this team is capable to playing entertaining football - and other teams in transition (i.e., Liverpool) seem to be capable of playing attacking football as well. So yes, I do not see it as a necessary byproduct of the job he is doing - I see it as the most pragmatic way.

As time goes on, we can only say that we were incredibly lucky to have a manager like SAF, and for 26 years. Many fans took the success he brought for granted and it is becoming more apparent now what an awesome feat that was. But then again, let's also remember he took around 6 years to start on a winning run - and yes you could also argue the state of the team was worse than the one LVG took over but things are always different. Just because fans expect results quicker now doesn't mean its the optimal way.

Unfortunately there is no comparison because the sample size is 1, so we can only be patient. Every one wants the good old days of swashbuckling attacking football under Fergie, but truth is only a few of Fergie's teams managed that consistently. I look back on those months with Moyes and I can still recall not only the boring football, one dimensional tactics (n crosses), a manager who lacked the authority and track record, and also the poor results that came with it; and I can only say that from those lenses, LVG has done reasonably well.

We cleared out the deadwood (and many fans have said we needed to), we do have some different plans and tactics (they don't always work but which tactic works 100% of the time), we have a manager with a plan and track record (though no one knows what his time line is or even what the KPI set by the board is), and we are showing better results (so far).

Some may use the 200m spent as a stick to beat LVG with, but let's not forget we did sell a lot of players too and we got rid of a lot of high wages. I'd be keen to see the net result and I'd wager we wouldn't see such an large incremental amount combined. But that's investment, which a lot of fans complained was something we didn't do enough of.

All in all, I think there is a reason why LVG was only signed for three years. The board has a plan (and I hope that isn't about making Giggs the manager) and I think the board hired LVG simply for the transition: Clear the deadwood, set a foundation, improve our tactical acumen, give youth opportunities, but don't screw up too much such that our commercial revenue is compromised. It became clear to the management that it is almost impossible to jump from SAF to an SAF mk II. We naively tried that in Moyes and had to nip that in the bud fairly quickly so the board might be creating a transition period and simply waiting for a Pep or someone similar (or Giggs, god forbid).

For all we know, LVG might have only agreed to this job because it was going to be a short one. Woodward might have said, build a strong base but just keep us steady and close to challenging for 3 years and off you go on retirement. In that case, LVG doesn't care if he isn't entertaining the fans. It will be the next manager's job to do so.
 

Tosicsleftpeg

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I think the fact that Depay has been so inconsistent and quite poor at times has really messed up LVG this season, it's clear he wanted Depay to be pivotal in the the attack but he hasn't delivered. Martialb on the other hand has been very good but he has no support whatsoever. We need another winger and a striker with a bit of pace and guile and then I think we will see a change in fortunes (goals wise as I think results aren't too bad)

The fact we have been using Lingard as much as we have speaks volumes for me, we need a direct runner with pace and although he may not be the most talented player in the world he works so so hard and makes things happen for himself. We need more of that as at the moment there are zero outlets for our midfielders who are quite capable of pulling off defence splitting passes but they simply have no one to aim the ball at.

Windy used to be a willing runner but I think it's fair to say he's Massively on the decline and I think LVG knows this now. Overall I think we're doing OK plodding along but we don't really have the players in the right form to rip teams appart.
 

Boycott

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When you have players of high skill and technique you can play an attacking brand of football with tempo and flair while being able to hold majority of ball possession by virtue of being superior players. Barcelona, Bayern, Arsenal and Manchester City.

We've seen the impact of Rafa Benitez the famously heralded defensive coach is having at Real. I see no difference between Van Gaal's United with any Benitez team post Valencia because he is obsessed with the stats game which paints a different picture to the dross we see on the pitch. He uses it as an excuse. G Nev made a point about how long subs take because the coach is explaining his dissertation. For Christ sake get on with it. All the preparation should be done in training and in game short and clear instructions to players who are playing with adrenaline.

Our team is one that is thinking too hard to play a game that they are uneasy with. While the above mentioned teams play quick 1 or 2 touch passing our players take too many making the game slow and ponderous. Then you have the additional factor that in the Prem teams will look to counter and be aggressive in their play so what looked like a chance to fashion a move in the final third ends up with the player shielding the ball because we're in danger of being countered.

How can a team that has so much possession, two defensive mids and full backs who don't really go forward get turned over so quick on the counter?

Again that's a sign that this philosophy is not working. We're not flooding men forward and we're not having much movement that we get caught out in numbers at the back that those teams do. It's the case that the opponents are happy for us to give it 5 yards here and 3 yards there and eventually we'll hit a brick wall.
 

K2K

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My bad. however, i think Jose should be allowed to see the season through though.
I wouldnt mind him finishing the season either..but for entirely devious reasons..He seems to alienate a lot of his own players when things go wrong, and I am far from convinced that Chelsea are out of the woods yet.

This is eerily similar to the end of his Madrid run for me.
 

Salfordlad70

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There were times under SAF in the nineties, when he was rebuilding, when watching United was a painful experience. Under Moyes we were simply awful. Under LVG, with the exception of Everton away, and a handful of games last spring, watching United under LVG has been a whole new experience. I am tiring of the sport itself due to the tumescent shite he's serving up. I believe we have the players to be more entertaining and effective, but his stubbornness and fear of allowing his team to play with freedom is just infuriating, and after yesterday I am not sure I can stomach anymore. Of course I will, but I long for this clown to be a distant memory. I am so bored. If he can't see how shit Rooney has become then there's no hope.
 

marjen

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We wasn't this bad to watch under Moyes. Honestly. We were poor, but we wasn't mind numbingly dull.

And Moyes can feck off for what he did to the club, I don't defend him in any way, but in terms of pure entertainment, we're totally lacking in ambition. LVG doesn't give a flying feck how poor we are to watch, he want 1-0's.
 

mu77

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We wasn't this bad to watch under Moyes. Honestly. We were poor, but we wasn't mind numbingly dull.

And Moyes can feck off for what he did to the club, I don't defend him in any way, but in terms of pure entertainment, we're totally lacking in ambition. LVG doesn't give a flying feck how poor we are to watch, he want 1-0's.

don't know about that but it's like he settle for that as opposed for going for number two. so i do agree he settles for being safe all the fecking time regardless of the team in front of united.
 

marjen

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don't know about that but it's like he settle for that as opposed for going for number two. so i do agree he settles for being safe all the fecking time regardless of the team in front of united.
And yesterday, at 1-1, you just knew it was more important to ensure we didn't let in another one than trying to get a winner.

Which is never fine against sodding Leicester, freak Vardy run or not.
 

devil in me

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This is reasonable. I don't disagree with any of that. And as I've said before, I'll take an excellent - but dull - rebuild job on LVG's part, chalking that up to necessity and looking at the big picture. I have absolutely no issue with such an outlook.

What gets on my tits, however, and increasingly so - is when people on here badger honest United fans for voicing their frustration over the football on display. It's not a matter of "pragmatic", or "dull but efficient", or even "bland" - it's beyond that. And that is why said fans react. I'm not talking about sheer idiots who demand instant success and brilliant displays every week. What we've seen over the last month or so is that an entirely different set of fans on here have began to voice their dismay. Brushing this aside as knee-jerkism or hysteria is uncalled for.

LVG is what he is. And as long as he keeps the ship floating, I will never call for his head. What you touch on above is precisely what I keep telling myself: If the board has hired him to oversee a certain - ahem - process, then so be it. Let him do that - and let a very different beast emerge once he's done. But I'm not fine with people rationalizing the sort of football we've seen far too often under him as being a necessary byproduct of the job he's doing.

There's a tendency among LVG's staunchest supporters on here to just flat out deny the reality of what others are seeing when we play: You can't rationalize away the fact that fellow fans find it near insufferable to watch us play. It may be that these people have a very different idea about "entertainment", or very different expectations as to what is acceptable for Manchester United to offer on the pitch - and that's fine. But don't go about acting as though everyone else is simply acting "entitled". It doesn't wash given the scale of the thing, and the fact that fans from radically different subsets are expressing the same views.

I'm not singling you out with this, let me be clear on that - I was just using your quote as the starting point for a rant.
Brilliant post. Basically sums up my thoughts far better than I ever could.
 

Nik70

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So are you. Picking out one game as an example.

I didnt post that to state in anyway that Moyes' tenure was better than LVG. I posted that to state that LVG is not immune from criticism because of our league position now. Moyes got incredible amount of stick even though he took us CL QF's and League cup Semis. Yet the same standard is not being applied to LVG. Somehow, our league position is used as a defense for his case. I am sure people will be running out of that excuse as well, sooner than later.
I did that to illustrate my point. If you're going to pick out one or two games from Moyes' era you can do the same for LVG.
 

UnitedinRed

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Are United fans now the worst fans in the league?

If other fans were behaving like some of us are, the answer would be yes. Cringeworthy reading here and a few other threads.
 

Fully Fledged

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:lol:

What's a decent side if I may ask? It doesn't seem to be that easy to beat teams like Eindhoven for many of the English, Spanish, German, Italian sides, which is why Roma and Leverkusen struggle to finish above Bate, Wolfsburg and United the same with Eindhoven, Arsenal the same with Olympiacos, Chelsea and Porto with Kyiv, Valencia with Gent.

Outside of the top tier clubs (Barca, Real, Bayern and PSG) all the teams regular struggle against these kind of teams. Maybe they deserve to be called decent or sometimes even good instead of 'crap'?
Yeah but with the money we throw about and having a supposed elite manager we should be top tier.
 

prath92

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We wasn't this bad to watch under Moyes. Honestly. We were poor, but we wasn't mind numbingly dull.

And Moyes can feck off for what he did to the club, I don't defend him in any way, but in terms of pure entertainment, we're totally lacking in ambition. LVG doesn't give a flying feck how poor we are to watch, he want 1-0's.
Not sure if you are serious with this. City barely got out of second gear and won 3-0 at OT. We were comprehensively defeated by pretty much every decent side.
 

Verminator

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Under LVG I go to games not expecting excitement but with hope. Under Moyes, I didn't want to even go!
Our problems under Louis are well discussed, but we look more like a team and less like a group of strangers, as we did under Moyes.
He just needs to get over Rooney, and find some love for Herrera .
 

Annihilate Now!

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Are United fans now the worst fans in the league?

If other fans were behaving like some of us are, the answer would be yes. Cringeworthy reading here and a few other threads.
Might just be me... But most of the discussions I have about United away from the Caf are non-United fans coming up to me and saying "How do you watch that crap?" ... so yeah.
 

SammyUnited_83

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Might just be me... But most of the discussions I have about United away from the Caf are non-United fans coming up to me and saying "How do you watch that crap?" ... so yeah.
Exactly. So many of my (non United) mates saying exactly the same.

We are crap to watch and it will only get better once LvG departs.

Also, can people stop comparing this rebuild to Fergie, LvG has admitted himself he isn't in it for the long haul, he will have at most have 1 more season after this and if we don't take action soon we will be left in the same state we were after Moyes - Partially rebuilt, with a new manager coming in, who has new ideas and wants different players.

It's a complete feck up, and the succession plan that Gill spoke about before Fergie left has been well and truly exposed as a load of waffle.
 

Samid

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It's so uninspiring watching United these days. I get all excited when someone comes into the team and plays with complete freedom and freshness. Two weeks later that freedom has been coached out of them and they are forced to adapt to a dull possession philosophy that limits their abilities. There are still between 12-20 games to play this season. Giving that clown more time to mess it up is just mental. Why not just sack LVG and give Warren Joyce the interim duties until May? He knows all the kids, is a passionate manager and plays a nice brand of football. Please give the fans something to cheer about.
 

Tyrion

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Tbh I find us less boring now. I think we've stopped following LVG's way of doing things to the letter and now we don't really have any plan at all. We're still sh!te though.
 

Timdbro

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We weren't less boring today, we were back to the usual shite. I posted in the matchday thread about 3 minutes in that it looked like we were back to the slow sideways and backwards crap, and it wasn't because I'm some incredibly perceptive tactical genius, it was just that obvious.

I still can't get over how little we create, it's staggering. Quite literally, none of the other top-ish PL teams create so little, not even West Ham or Liverpool. We've had so many matches like today, where it's felt like we could have played another 90 minutes and still created absolutely nothing.
 

peridigm

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Today was December-January philosophy rubbish bullshit form. We can clearly play good football as our more recent results have shown. I just think LVG prefers to not be risky with certain players on the pitch. He knows we can't be risky with Carrick in midfield yet were risky with him playing in defense. Darmian has not turned out to be what we need at RB. Varela is a better option at the moment. Rashford looks better with Memphis on the wing than with Martial.

This season can't end soon enough for me.
 

Billy Blaggs

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Genius with young players. Gives young players a chance.

He's decimated the squad. Shit the bed on the rebuild. Failed to live up to his own promises.

He has no credit to ride on. I don't care what he's won our what he's done. What's he done for Manchester United
 

Bobcat

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I wonder what his attacking "plan" is, because i would love to know. Bar a few occasions, when Martial/Lingaard tried to score on their own, our only attacking plan consisted of hoofing it up to Martial and hoping he would beat their whole defense on his own, or pointless crosses with one man in the box.

I could actually live with Van Gaal staying and we missing out on top 4, but this catastrophic football is killing me
 

Lawman

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LVG has been a disaster at United he left the squad short (especially in key positions) then had no choice to throw in the kids. He knows he is a dead man walking and is trying to paint himself as someone who deliberately did this to give the kids a chance. We are United the first and foremost thing to do is challenging for trophies, the second is playing a brand of attractive football then the third is producing our own talent in that order! LVG has failed on two accounts and none of the players he has brought through will start under any new manager. He will be gone by the next fortnight he should have walked by now.
 

RedPed

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The LVG apologists will argue how can you not love the guy when he gives us quality moments like his drunken speech, his pre-match pressers and post-match interviews, his comedy tumble against Arsenal?

You only had to see the threads and comments springing up after the Arsenal game. Unbelievably, he still has a lot of admirers and followers! :confused:

We now have two games against Liverpool and games against West Ham and City coming up. Imagine also drawing or worse still losing to the Villa too! Things will finally unravel of he'll somehow buy himself more credit with a few crafty results!

I'm just hoping he goes at the end of the season!
 

GloryHunter07

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It's so uninspiring watching United these days. I get all excited when someone comes into the team and plays with complete freedom and freshness. Two weeks later that freedom has been coached out of them and they are forced to adapt to a dull possession philosophy that limits their abilities. There are still between 12-20 games to play this season. Giving that clown more time to mess it up is just mental. Why not just sack LVG and give Warren Joyce the interim duties until May? He knows all the kids, is a passionate manager and plays a nice brand of football. Please give the fans something to cheer about.
I assume you are referring to Rashford here. Is it not possible that he is just a young player who was always going to be inconsistent at his age and start performing as such?

There are plenty of things to accuse Van Gal of but this isnt one of them imho.
 

Winrar

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The LVG apologists will argue how can you not love the guy when he gives us quality moments like his drunken speech, his pre-match pressers and post-match interviews, his comedy tumble against Arsenal?
so some of the arguments for LVG now have nothing to do with football.

that's how bad it's gotten
 

Perrick Dubois

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I wonder what his attacking "plan" is, because i would love to know. Bar a few occasions, when Martial/Lingaard tried to score on their own, our only attacking plan consisted of hoofing it up to Martial and hoping he would beat their whole defense on his own, or pointless crosses with one man in the box.

I could actually live with Van Gaal staying and we missing out on top 4, but this catastrophic football is killing me
I want to watch open training sessions. I legitimately want to know what is going on in training because I would have to speculate that we do very little ball work on how to retain possesion and utilize it without passing (or shitting it basically). When I watched that Bournemouth game earlier this season (one of the few I've been able to catch live) I was literally stood there saying to myself "this Bournemouth team are way better than us on the ball and more comfortable in possession.... What is going on?" granted they almost literally played their way out into our press, lost the ball and conceded a couple of times but none of their players looked like they cared that one or two players were pressing them and fighting for the ball. A lot of the time they would play around it and sometimes it would get them onto the front foot, especially Josh King.

So, like I said above. I legitimately want to know what we are doing at training.
 

Bobcat

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I want to watch open training sessions. I legitimately want to know what is going on in training because I would have to speculate that we do very little ball work on how to retain possesion and utilize it without passing
If you watch other possesion teams like Liverpool and Arsenal, you will see two major things that separate them from us.
1. They are always looking for the killer ball, our version is Blind hoofing it to Martial against a established back four.
2. If a player gets the ball in an advanced position, the whole team moves forward, and there is tonnes of movement around him. With us three things seem to happen: Pass it back, because there is no other option, try to dribble, or try to cross it

The stats don't lie, we are one of the teams with the least chances produced and the least shots on goals in the league, and it makes us dreadful to watch
 

Perrick Dubois

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If you watch other possesion teams like Liverpool and Arsenal, you will see two major things that separate them from us.
1. They are always looking for the killer ball, our version is Blind hoofing it to Martial against a established back four.
2. If a player gets the ball in an advanced position, the whole team moves forward, and there is tonnes of movement around him. With us three things seem to happen: Pass it back, because there is no other option, try to dribble, or try to cross it

The stats don't lie, we are one of the teams with the least chances produced and the least shots on goals in the league, and it makes us dreadful to watch
Even reduced down to individual players in our team. Completely in laymans terms, would you place a bet on anyone other than Martial to keep the ball in a 3vs1 game of 20x20 for more than 15 seconds? Half this squad can't even escape a single or even two man press without wellying the ball to any kind of safety after a short dribble. To play this type of game you need to be training your players so they literally think they can dribble through all 10 outfield players and score/assist because by keeping possession and moving yourself and the ball you open up passing channels by not only making the press arrive where you are but taking the pressing players out of the equation by dribbling away from it and opening up a run for the free man.

I honestly have seen little to none of this this season. Especially from midfield and the fullbacks (again, Martial aside he's been an absolute wizard on the left at times). A few times we see Smalling and Blind charge out into midfield only to look up, not have a pass on and then just make a safe pass sideways and run back into defense. How bout we see some of the deeper midfielders do that as part of their base requirements? That will instantly turn the opposition midfield on the back foot. They know our two DM's play the entire game in front of them and never have to deal with any overloads at all.


Look at Varela's movement, takes out two players from pressing high up then Martial's run and turn inside takes out three and then another defender. Imagine if we could have the whole midfield with the ability to evade a press like this. It is just absolutely awful to watch us welly pass after pass around the field with nobody wanting to take their man on and create something.
 

Speak

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Even reduced down to individual players in our team. Completely in laymans terms, would you place a bet on anyone other than Martial to keep the ball in a 3vs1 game of 20x20 for more than 15 seconds? Half this squad can't even escape a single or even two man press without wellying the ball to any kind of safety after a short dribble. To play this type of game you need to be training your players so they literally think they can dribble through all 10 outfield players and score/assist because by keeping possession and moving yourself and the ball you open up passing channels by not only making the press arrive where you are but taking the pressing players out of the equation by dribbling away from it and opening up a run for the free man.

I honestly have seen little to none of this this season. Especially from midfield and the fullbacks (again, Martial aside he's been an absolute wizard on the left at times). A few times we see Smalling and Blind charge out into midfield only to look up, not have a pass on and then just make a safe pass sideways and run back into defense. How bout we see some of the deeper midfielders do that as part of their base requirements? That will instantly turn the opposition midfield on the back foot. They know our two DM's play the entire game in front of them and never have to deal with any overloads at all.


Look at Varela's movement, takes out two players from pressing high up then Martial's run and turn inside takes out three and then another defender. Imagine if we could have the whole midfield with the ability to evade a press like this. It is just absolutely awful to watch us welly pass after pass around the field with nobody wanting to take their man on and create something.
Totally agree with your post. Watching Tottenham (for example) with players all over the park (Walker, Rose, Vertonghen, Dembele, Alli, Kane, Lamela, Son) who are all light-footed enough to spin on a sixpence with the ball, take people out the game with a turn/dribble, get the ball out of their feet quickly, side-step a challenge... It's what their game is built on.

Meanwhile, United has two or three at best who can do it to any decent standard.

You say that 'you need to be training your players..."
I'd disagree on how effective training is. You can either turn a man with a football at your feet... or you can't. You either have the quick/light feet, the balance, the dribbling, the body strength... or you don't.

No amount of training will turn 20+ year old players (with set-in-stone physiques, agility levels, balance, general athleticism) into skilled dribblers. So players who can do it to a higher standard are needed in this squad.