Anyone else who doesn't care for signing more defenders?

Eric's Seagull

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If it was Jose signing defebder X, I wouldn't bother as I don't trust his judgement anymore as a lot of his signings haven't the mark. Although at one point a long time ago I had complete faith in Jose regarding 'defensive' signings as his his defensive record was so good.
But I no longer have that faith in him and think they should give the responsibility of signing new players to the next guy as I think Jose will be gone soon.

Also I would not want Jose to sign a defender on mega-money who might not the next managers's players then we would be stuck with more deadwood ion a huge contract which could be very hard to get rid of.
 

Oldyella

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We can't just keep signing new players though, Squad is overloaded with centre backs as it is. If we were to let a couple go I would be up for it, but honestly, a new coach and set up seems far more important. Bring in a dof at the same time.
 
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I'd rather we just fix the attack. Watching us play dreadful football for the last few seasons, I wouldn't mind us just go mental in attack (a bit like Liverpool last season) and then once we're finally playing football worthy of this club build the defence.

I mean most people on here think we're shit anyway and it's not going to get fixed straight away. So while, we're expected to remain shit why not just focus on building the side of the team that will be at least worth watching? The likes of Madrid, Barcelona, City have shown a great attack is much more important than a great defence.
Our defence is literally the biggest reason we are doing so badly. For all the abuse our attack gets, it has only failed to score in 3 games vs Spurs, Palace and Juventus at home. In comparison we have kept 5 clean sheets all season in about 23 + matches
 

slir32

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We need first of all a new manager.

We also need:

2xCB (sell rojo and jones)
1RB (sell Valencia)
1LB (sell Damian)
1xCDM (sell Fellaini)
1xRW(sell Sanchez)
1xST
 

12OunceEpilogue

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Rather than signing three or four CBs with a mass jettison of our current stock I'd like to add one top class commanding ballplayer (Koulibaly is an obvious touchstone) then work on our attack. We need someone at the back who is capable of getting the whole line playing on the front foot, not fifteen yards too deep, with an eye for a positive pass but obviously that's no good if we don't improve the positions in front of the back four.

The priority signing for me is a right-sided attacker, with other signings needed at fullback and midfield if we find members of our current squad can't step up.​
 

Patrick08

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I’d like to think our attack can be “fixed” without signing a load of new players. Because if we need to sign a load of new players to get us playing good attacking football and we need new defenders to stop conceding stupid goals (and better CMs would surely help at both ends of the pitch) then maybe we shouldn’t be all blaming all our woes on the manager?
The manager is supposed to get the right players, gets his tactics right, and get the morale and effort of the team right. He's failing at all 3.
 

Patrick08

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He’s awful these days. He doesn’t close any defenders down anymore as he’s scared to get skinned. If they stay wide and cut inside he just lets them do what they want.

Add to the fact he barely ever makes it up high enough to threaten a cross or keep width, he needs selling ASAP.
He's also had an argument with mourinho. Although lately I haven't seen united play so ill take your word for it.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Our defence is literally the biggest reason we are doing so badly. For all the abuse our attack gets, it has only failed to score in 3 games vs Spurs, Palace and Juventus at home. In comparison we have kept 5 clean sheets all season in about 23 + matches
5 PL teams have scored more goals than us this season. They’re in 1st to 5th place. We’ve scored the 6th most goals in the PL and are in 6th place.

So we’ve clearly got problems at both ends of the pitch.
 

red thru&thru

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We should not be signing any new players, let alone just defenders. The playing side of Manchester needs a massive revamp and I’m talking majoritly about the first team.
 

Patrick08

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5 PL teams have scored more goals than us this season. They’re in 1st to 5th place. We’ve scored the 6th most goals in the PL and are in 6th place.

So we’ve clearly got problems at both ends of the pitch.
Not only at the ends, but also in the middle, when pogba fellani matic can't control the midfield and create chances by slowing down the play and sidepassing as our game depends on counter attack most of the time.
 

Camilo

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I agree - I don't care either. We could have the best back 4 on the planet, but it would only serve to partially cover our appalling lack of ideas. We've a team full of very good players - get a coach in who can get a tune out of them, who can get us playing with some enthusiasm and confidence, and then fix what needs fixing personnel wise.

We're such a shambles right now that trying to buy our way out would be stupid.
 

Skills

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Our defence is literally the biggest reason we are doing so badly. For all the abuse our attack gets, it has only failed to score in 3 games vs Spurs, Palace and Juventus at home. In comparison we have kept 5 clean sheets all season in about 23 + matches
In the last 5 seasons we have scored:

68
54
49
62
64 league goals

If you think that's acceptable for Manchester United, we don't identify with the same club.
 

hobbers

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We have to replace Smalling and Matic. And keep playing Dalot and Shaw. That's the key to turning our low tempo awful football into something half coherent and effective.
 

Skills

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I’d like to think our attack can be “fixed” without signing a load of new players. Because if we need to sign a load of new players to get us playing good attacking football and we need new defenders to stop conceding stupid goals (and better CMs would surely help at both ends of the pitch) then maybe we shouldn’t be all blaming all our woes on the manager?
The biggest improvement we can make will be with a new coach. But it's obvious we'we lacking something in our front line (specifically RW). The fact that the feckwit in charge has instead spent his entire time complaining about not getting another CB (despite us constantly looking inept in front of goal in his entire tenure), or trying to replace our best LW shows that he hasn't got a clue.
 

LoveFootball

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The only areas that we need to upgrade are midfield and attack. In midfielder we need to replace Fellaini and Matic as quick as possible without even giving the next manager time to assess them, someone like Fellaini has some magic power and can charm the next guy in charge of the 1st team. Then in attack we need to move Lukaku, Sanchez, Mata and Lingard to make room for the coming academy talents and new signings.

We already have good option in defense; players such as Lindelof, Bailly, Dalot, Shaw can improve massively under a good coach and we already have Axel Tuanzenbe on loan who's a good potential. In this area we only need to bring in excellent backup for the 1st team player to replace the like Young and Valencia.
Spending 100M on Koulibaly would be a luxury that we don't really need right now and the kind of mistakes we've been doing since SAF left (see Sanchez, Lukaku, Pogba, Zlatan, Falcao, Mata).
 

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The manager is supposed to get the right players, gets his tactics right, and get the morale and effort of the team right. He's failing at all 3.
I think you're actually both on the same side of the debate; that the choice between getting virtually a new squad because the current lads have proved themselves to be 'not good enough' versus seeing if a new manager can get a better tune out of the players we have is no choice to make at all. Of course we need some quality first team additions but when things went awry under Jose at Chelsea those who looked like pub players under him weren't all shipped out, so there's no reason for us to be too ruthless this time.
 

OldPop

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Anyone who has knowledge about how the ball possession statistics have changed over time?

My theory is that if our midfield and our attack, apparently, are so bad at holding the ball within the team, the defense is exposed to unreasonably high pressure and they are stressed to make more mistakes than they would normally do.

If there are statistics on the ball possession over the years then it should be possible to see if that's the case.

And if the theory is correct, I agree that focus should be on strengthening those parts of the team first. And then replace with one or a pair of reasonably skilled players in the back line for those who should be replaced because of their age.

I do not want to say there is any guarantee of immediate success, but maybe it's right to start with?

And yes, do not tell me that Mourinho needs to be replaced, I already know.
 

El-Cucy Ferguson

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Honestly, I kind of agree with the sentiment of the OP.

Throughout history, there have been some great defenses that, quite frankly, weren't all that on paper. Obviously, having the personnel as well helps significantly. Some of the best defenses in the world contained the likes of Vidic, Ferdinand, Carvalho, Terry, Ramos, Nesta, Baresi etc etc.


But let's look at top defenses that didn't contain maybe the best personnel. I'm going to use a controversial example, but Barcelona from 2011-onwards, post Carles Puyol. The first choice central defense was Javier Mascherano and Gerard Pique. The backup defenders were Fontas and Marc Bartra. Chygrinsky was there for a while as well.

Pique, in my honest opinion, as a pure defender, is overrated. He suits Barcelona to a tee. His style of player is so perfect for tiki-taka. But, take him out of that team and play him in the premier league his performances would diminish a lot. He was slow, lumbering, had the turning range of an oil tanker. He wasn't the most athletic either. He had fantastic positioning, decent strength, his marking was decent but his tackling ability wasn't stand out for his generation.

But it was the way Barcelona was organized and setup, from top to bottom that completely masked his deficiencies and made scoring against that Barca side an absolute nightmare. Mascherano isn't a CB to be perfectly honest. Later on, he converted but he's not natural. He's short, sometimes loses his position, sometimes too aggressive for a CB by disregarding positional awareness. He is the same as putting Gary Neville in CB.


The point I'm making is that it's the style and the way the defense is organized that is most important in a defense. Let's analyze some of the best defenses since the turn of the century that didn't have fantastic personnel. Inter Milan, Greece, Athletico Madrid, Bayern Munich.


Walter Samuel, Ivan Cordoba are fantastic players. But who is going to remember them. They don't fall anywhere close to the class of the greats of the era. Lucio for that same Inter team had just come from a free transfer from Bayern because he wasn't deemed as good and was in rapid decline. Yet he performed fantastically and had a late career revival. I honestly couldn't name a single player from that Greece defense that teams completely struggled to break down.


Look at the Athletico team from 2013. Godin and Miranda were so highly rated because of it. Giminez was going to be the next big thing. Felipe Luis was regarded as one of the best left backs in Europe and Juanfran was deemed excellent. Miranda and Luis left and both have completely underperformed since leaving. Godin has now formed a partnership with Giminez and it's still very strong.


Players like Vrjsalkio, Manquillo, Insua, Stefan Savic have slotted into seamlessly despite being above average for their previous clubs. I'll make an exception for Vrjsalkio as he was indeed highly rated. But the point is you compare that roster of defenders to the greats and they fall so far short.


The same applies for that peak Bayern team. Boateng, Dante and Badstuber. Boateng's weaknesses became very apparent once the setup changed. Dante declined so quickly moment he left Bayern and Badstuber is nowhere. Yet, in that system, they were defensive gods.


So my overall point is that whilst personnel matters, the most important thing is how a defense is set up and how it is organized. You could have some of the best defenders in the world thrown together and look average due to poor organization and set up. But you could take some decent, but not outstanding defenders, organize them well and have an awesome defense.


With that said, I firmly believe that with the right organization and setup, the likes of Lindelof, Bailey, Jones and Smalling CAN perform to a much higher standard than they are now. I'm not saying they're going to perform like peak Athletico, Inter or Bayern, but the ceiling for this defense is exponentially higher than the level it is currently performing at.
 

OldPop

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Honestly, I kind of agree with the sentiment of the OP.
...
With that said, I firmly believe that with the right organization and setup, the likes of Lindelof, Bailey, Jones and Smalling CAN perform to a much higher standard than they are now. I'm not saying they're going to perform like peak Athletico, Inter or Bayern, but the ceiling for this defense is exponentially higher than the level it is currently performing at.
An absolutely amazing analysis, and I really agree with your conclusion that the organization is as important as the players. It may not be so bad or hopeless with our defense as we sometimes think.
 

dove

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Maguire is really, really good. I have wanted him for years now. I don't care about the price tag, it's not my money. Free up garbage like Sanchez and use his wages for Maquire instead.
:lol: I would rather stick with Jones, and I really really hate Jones...
 

Arka_BleedingRed

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Excellent analysis by @El-Cucy Ferguson above. This applies to not only the defence, but also the attack and maybe midfield to an extent.

We can stick the best players in every position and still look like 11 strangers playing with each other for the first time, if the tactics and organisation is poor/doesn't suit the players. Look at Liverpool's, M city's attack. Before joining Liverpool, the likes of Mane, Firmino, Salah would hardly be called World class. But, under Klopp's style, they have been transformed. Ditto at City. Other than Aguero, the likes of Sterling, Mahrez, Sane are good but hardly world class. Pep's tactics make them look better than they actually are.

People are all clamoring for us to buy Coulibaly. But before Sarri came to Napoli, he was just another good defender with suspect positioning, inconsistent ball playing skills kind of like Bailly, less aggressive though. Under Sarri's coaching, he improved to the extent that he is now consistent enough to be classed as one of the best defenders in the world.

An ideal team needs a mix of quality, potential, grit and flair. Under an attacking, proactive manager with tactics that would suit our players, I can see many of our "deadwood", "misfits" easily improve their game vastly. That is why first and foremost, Mourinho has to go as soon as possible, but the club's overall approach also has to significantly change in order to bring out the best of our players. And, this isn't either-or situation. Both of these need to happen sharpish. More the delay, more we down the ditch we have dug for ourselves.
 
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5 PL teams have scored more goals than us this season. They’re in 1st to 5th place. We’ve scored the 6th most goals in the PL and are in 6th place.

So we’ve clearly got problems at both ends of the pitch.
Reduce our goals conceded by half and we'd be above teams that have scored more than us. Hence I don't buy the notion our attack is as bad an issue as our defense currently
 
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El-Cucy Ferguson

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To add to my point already given; John O'shea circa 2007-2011 sums the point up pretty well.

Yes, he copped a lot of criticism, and rightfully so, for his poor offensive abilities as a fullback. Let's be honest with ourselves, objectively in attack he was pretty dreadful.

But how many times can you say "John O'shea's performance in defense cost us this game".

I honestly can't think of a single occasion where O'shea performed badly from a defensive point of view. He started in Center back or Right back in Champions league semi finals, quarter finals, big games vs European giants and there's not one occasion where he has looked out of his depth.

Yes, he had Rio/Vidic/Evra/Brown or whatever usually next to him. But he seamlessly fitted in. Yet, objectively, he isn't even a 2nd tier top defender in the past 2 decades. He's probably third tier at best.

Despite all of that, he performed top quality in one of the best defenses in the world. I put that down to the organizational setup and structure that Man Utd had at the time.
 

RAVred

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Jesus, our club is seriously in such a toxic mind state after 2 and a half seasons of this manager, we are so fragile due to constant success, its actually apauling.

Caping for haphazard and rash decision making like this is what the board has been doing and why we are in a shambles. Modern football and modern coaches play out their attack from the back, Dalot and Lindelof will be good signings with most managers we go for in the summer because of this, and TFM has potential. We absolutely need another great quality centre back, probably Koulibaly or Varane (I much prefer the prior because of his aggressiveness in moving forward and physicality).

Look at how much Pool improved with the intro of VVD. Someone who can lead the defence, contribute attack wise, and play football.


After that its midfield... We need a consistent midfielder whos a good passer and can actually tempo control, I think its more important than Matics replacement as we can stop gap that hole much easier. A midfielder who can start almost every game. This should've been Pogba, but it obviously isnt. Unless we buy half the Juve or French squad he apparently cant be consistent or accommodated.

We literally paid near 100 million for our striker a summer ago, theres no way we get another world class striker. The options for WC right wing is also sparse. I'd personally love someone like Rebic (who will be insanely expensive and not worth it for that price) or Arnautovic.
 

RAVred

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If it was Jose signing defebder X, I wouldn't bother as I don't trust his judgement anymore as a lot of his signings haven't the mark. Although at one point a long time ago I had complete faith in Jose regarding 'defensive' signings as his his defensive record was so good.
But I no longer have that faith in him and think they should give the responsibility of signing new players to the next guy as I think Jose will be gone soon.

Also I would not want Jose to sign a defender on mega-money who might not the next managers's players then we would be stuck with more deadwood ion a huge contract which could be very hard to get rid of.
Expect his defensive signings have been decent, at least in one season. Lindelof has been great this season and Bailly was great in one or two of the seasons as well...

Theres no point wasting cash in January though, just save it for Summer. I also feel like Utd is too concerned with media scrutiny, we can easily blow 500 million in a window. Look at city, they do not care about how much they spend at all
 

Eric's Seagull

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Expect his defensive signings have been decent, at least in one season. Lindelof has been great this season and Bailly was great in one or two of the seasons as well...

Theres no point wasting cash in January though, just save it for Summer. I also feel like Utd is too concerned with media scrutiny, we can easily blow 500 million in a window. Look at city, they do not care about how much they spend at all
I really liked Bailly when he first came here and hope that we keep him.

I totally agree with the part in bold, we have the money and I think we should spend as much as it takes as long as it is spent wisely to get us back where we should be. I'd rather spend the money to get us challenging rather than it lining the Glazer's pockets.

But I think decision on who we spend it on should be in the hands of someone rather than Woodward and preferably with a new manager at the helm also.
 

Djemba-Djemba

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100%. I want a new manager.

I just find the idea our entire fecking squad also needs to be replaced unbearably depressing.
I desperately want a new manager too but I also think we need a massive overhaul.

We've got a collection of about 8 or 9 players who have been consistently shite and failures for years now and it's got to end.

We can't go into next season with a new manager being forced to line up with Valencia and Jones and Rojo etc in the squad. Because if we're still playing those sorts of players the next managerial reign will be just as terrible as the last 3.
 

Eric's Seagull

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I desperately want a new manager too but I also think we need a massive overhaul.

We've got a collection of about 8 or 9 players who have been consistently shite and failures for years now and it's got to end.

We can't go into next season with a new manager being forced to line up with Valencia and Jones and Rojo etc in the squad. Because if we're still playing those sorts of players the next managerial reign will be just as terrible as the last 3.
Spot on. I think we should bring in a Director of Football as well. I think the next choice of manager is going to be very important and I hope they get the right guy because I am sick of some of the crap served up this season.
 

red4ever 79

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I dont want to see the club spend another penny until someone at the club bring a bit of structure and an actual plan. Hire a DOF, bring in a mamager who wants to build an attacking team and then identify suitable targets. I also want to see at least 5 leave before we sign another player.
 

Eric's Seagull

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I dont want to see the club spend another penny until someone at the club bring a bit of structure and an actual plan. Hire a DOF, bring in a mamager who wants to build an attacking team and then identify suitable targets.
Think this would be my dream scenario, lets just hope Woody and co get their heads in gear to pull it off.
I have been thinking for a while that Director of Football should come in before the manager to asses the state we are in at the moment and identify what needs to be done then plan from there.
 

Ronaldo's Love Child

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I'd rather we just fix the attack. Watching us play dreadful football for the last few seasons, I wouldn't mind us just go mental in attack (a bit like Liverpool last season) and then once we're finally playing football worthy of this club build the defence.

I mean most people on here think we're shit anyway and it's not going to get fixed straight away. So while, we're expected to remain shit why not just focus on building the side of the team that will be at least worth watching? The likes of Madrid, Barcelona, City have shown a great attack is much more important than a great defence.
I kind of agree with this sentiment. We've been played a little bit by Mourinho with his "I need a commanding centre half and a right winger" narrative but after watching Utd this season then I don't think those two signings would solve the problem.

We have a squad good enough to beat some of the teams we have so far failed to beat this season and that can't be about personnel is about tactics and performances both of which rest on the managers' shoulders.

I actually feel sorry for whichever defender we do eventually bring in as there'll be enormous expectations on him
 
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IrishMcD

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Hasn't been our worst defender thought. Going forward his blunt.
Couldnt disagree more with you mate, he has been horrendous defensively for a while now. His positioning has always been poor but he had the stamina and pace to recover quickly but his legs have been gone for well over a year now and he is getting skinned time and time again. He doesn't squeeze because he cant, doesnt have the positional intelligence to stand off and shepard the forward to where he wants to send him and from an attacking sense he offers nothing. TO be honest, other than the one season he linked well with Rooney, he has never offered anything going forward. Hence why his career as a right winger was cut short and he was turned into a right back. He cant cross, gets to a certain point, stops and shimmeys, then passes the ball backwards and infield. I think at this stage a good League Two defender would prevent him causing any danger going forward. And as our club captain, he still can't speak English. He is the perfect example of what our club has become, wrong decisions constantly being made and below average being accepted as useful or the standard.
He is, easily our worst defender. At least Darmian can defend a bit. Rojo, Jones, Darmian and in particular Valencia should be chased out of Old Trafford, absolutely stealing a wage here!
 

Eric's Seagull

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I’d rather we fired Woodward and Jose both from footballing matters and appointed a DOF and a manager who both have a template and vision they can use as a guide for signings.
I would also like this to happen but to me it seems Ed is happy to be in the spotlight to fuel his ego and try to turn himself into a mini celebrity on the back of our club. Where I personally thin he should stick to what he is good at and try to stay out of the media as much as possible.
 

Kapardin

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A player like Koulibaly can be signed regardless of managerial situation. He's that type of talent, will be the favorite of any manager bar the most picky and irrational perhaps.
 

bosnian_red

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I've said it loads but not having a 29 year old Alderweireld at the club for £70m is not at all the reason for our struggles. That's not why we struggled against so many trash teams this season. Our problem is always creating any decent chances. We do nothing offensively, everyone we play has no fear to go at us and they create chances through that attitude. Fix our attack, and our defence will suddenly look more confident. Theres not a huge lack of talent there. It's not amazing or anything, but definitely shouldn't be this huge massive problem.
 

Skills

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A player like Koulibaly can be signed regardless of managerial situation. He's that type of talent, will be the favorite of any manager bar the most picky and irrational perhaps.
But is it worth spending 100m on a 27 year old defender just to compete for the top 4 for the next 2 years?

Surely you need to be seeing a CL win out of a 100m signing (and we won't even be in CL next season). At least that's Madrid and Juventus' philosophy. Sign big only if you're expected to win big.
 

Eric's Seagull

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But is it worth spending 100m on a 27 year old defender just to compete for the top 4 for the next 2 years?

Surely you need to be seeing a CL win out of a 100m signing (and we won't even be in CL next season). At least that's Madrid and Juventus' philosophy. Sign big only if you're expected to win big.
Think it will take us more than just a £100m signing to win the Champions League although I think signing Koulibaly will be a massive step in the right direction.