Appointing Solskjaer was a mistake

Enigma_87

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I'm not using ifs and buts. I was given a scenario where Chelsea score first, they sit deeper and win. There's plenty ifs and buts there.

I'm saying we had 2 (should have been 3 penalties). If converted, we'd be sitting at 9 points and people would be saying that we were comfortable winners, despite some shaky moments, and breaking opposition down can be worked on as we progress.

Instead were on 4 points and everyone is losing their minds.

So the mood shift has been determined by, essentially, 3 failed penalties.
Penalties and sitters are missed. We are just not very good at penalties. Might have something to do with not training them, might have to do with not having a designated taker. I'd rather concentrate on fixing that then putting it on chance, luck or ifs and buts.

Penalty is a penalty, not a goal. We didn't convert it because the taker wasn't good enough in the situation to beat the keeper. That's no excuse. We continue to suck at corners, free kicks and other set pieces.

What does that mean again? Luck? Or that we just don't improve them enough on the training field.

Luck is weak excuse. Chelsea were unlucky not to be 2-0 up. Lose our first game, morale is low against Wolves, lose that one and we might have been sitting at 0 out of 9?

It is what it is. Whereas we have been lucky not to fall behind Chelsea, we were unlucky not to convert our chances in the next two games.

Luck at the end evens out in the course of a full season.

What is a fact though is that we still look poor on set pieces and we haven't improved one bit. You can't put that on luck.
 

Lynty

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Penalties and sitters are missed. We are just not very good at penalties. Might have something to do with not training them, might have to do with not having a designated taker. I'd rather concentrate on fixing that then putting it on chance, luck or ifs and buts.

Penalty is a penalty, not a goal. We didn't convert it because the taker wasn't good enough in the situation to beat the keeper. That's no excuse. We continue to suck at corners, free kicks and other set pieces.

What does that mean again? Luck? Or that we just don't improve them enough on the training field.

Luck is weak excuse. Chelsea were unlucky not to be 2-0 up. Lose our first game, morale is low against Wolves, lose that one and we might have been sitting at 0 out of 9?

It is what it is. Whereas we have been lucky not to fall behind Chelsea, we were unlucky not to convert our chances in the next two games.

Luck at the end evens out in the course of a full season.

What is a fact though is that we still look poor on set pieces and we haven't improved one bit. You can't put that on luck.
But your still using if and but's, despite ridiculing the notion earlier. We can go all day describing different scenarios.

Stats support the fact that penalties have an 80% conversion rate in the EPL.

Pogba is 64% I believe. Our weakest from possible takers.

Both are considerably higher than the conversion on shots or chances created.

So on our worst odds, probability tells us we score 2 of the 3 penalties.

I'm not gonna dust off my Oxford dictionary, but I'd say falling short of the probable outcome is the very definition of unlucky
 

Fluctuation0161

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I really don't know whether or not Ole is good enough. What I do know is that:
  1. The Glazers bought this club for profit, not glory, and it's doing very well in that respect.
  2. Woodward is clueless on the football side of things. Our unbalanced squad is on him. From his first transfer window of only buying Fellaini (for more than his release clause) to buying useless players and giving them salaries that made them impossible to move on when they failed. Haphazard signing and firing managers, without backing them properly, and I could go on.
  3. I don't see how or why any top manager would want to work for the club. It's not even a poisoned chalice, it's straight up unappealing and a fools errand.
I think there's a lot to be sorted out before discussing changing managers. Ole is the fourth already. It's stupid to repeatedly try the same thing and expect a different result.
You're absolutely right.
 

Asger

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Wait until the Europa league kicks in and all the travelling and inevitable injuries that entails. If Ole makes it to Christmas I'll be surprised.
Well, i would be more surprised if 90% of the players would still get paid by then. Fans can’t expect a miracle with players that might even struggle play for teams like Everton, Wolves and Leicester. Only Pogba and De Gea might get minutes for teams like City, Liverpool and other big Euro teams.
 

The holy trinity 68

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It looks like Mourinho might have been correct that winning the league cup and Europa league followed by a 2nd place finish was his greatest achievement as a manager.

We don’t look like we would have a chance of any at the moment.
 

MackRobinson

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It looks like Mourinho might have been correct that winning the league cup and Europa league followed by a 2nd place finish was his greatest achievement as a manager.

We don’t look like we would have a chance of any at the moment.
Even though he said before the beginning of that season he was equipped to win the title. His greatest achievement was convincing fans his stone-age tactics weren't the problem.
 

Foxbatt

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Jose's biggest mistake was thinking that Lukaku could be another Drogba and Lindelof a Ricardo Cavarlho. Yes his last season was abnormal. He lost the plot completely.
But appointing someone like Ole who has no experience of managing in top level football could turn out to be our biggest mistake. Yes as bad as Moyes for that matter.
 

Jaqen H'ghar

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Agreed about Woodward.
As long as he keeps increasing profits, year on year, his job is safe.
Now, in order to achieve the ever increasing profits, it may be a case that we spend less and less...which is what we are currently seeing.
What he really needs to do is reduce our wage bill. This will increase profits and also get rid of the deadwood players who are useless to us. Most fans will back Woodie on this.

Regarding Ole, I said in the Summer that he won't be the manager on Jan 1st 2020 and I still stand by that.
What this means is that we'll hit that damn reset button, again in a few months and we are back to square one.

IMO, the board should get feedback from Ole, Jose and LVG, on how the structure of the club can be improved, so that when the next manager arrives, he has a better chance of doing well.
That would be a very good idea.
 

Jaqen H'ghar

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I think, our problem is hitting the reset button every 2 year.

As bad as LVG/Jose (not moyes sadly) give them 2-3 years and they'll start to build something.
That's true.

As a club we've showed a lack of vision and inexperience by our decision makers. It's clear there is no concensus on what we want to acheive and how, beyond a vague sense of wanting to be 'successful'. Are we just another team fighting for top four? Or do we want to dominate at home and become a European powerhouse again? What style of football should we play? How much are we willing to spend?

We've flirted with different playing styles, brought in managers whose football philosophies could not be more different and our transfer business seems so random, based more on who is available that what we need.

Once a decision has been made on what we want to achieve and a footballing identity has been decided, things will fall into place; who to appoint as manager, which players fit our vision, and when to replace a manager. I use the word 'replace' rather than 'hit reset' because once a plan is in place changing managers becomes a correction of course rather than a fresh beginning.

This reply is way longer than what I had planned, so I'll leave it here. Thanks for your time :).
 
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Jerome Holland

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What is happening now is the exact same things that happened under Mourinho. Defensive lapses, individual errors etc. David De Gea should grab the contract Utd is offering him with both hands because more performances like this and Romero will get his chance.

Ole as i said and will continue to say is out of his depth. He will not see out this season because he is tactically inept. This infatuation with British players will be the end of him. Lingard starts every game offering nothing but when you ask Solksjaer he says "he puts in a shift" is that all you need to be a player for MUFC?
Ole will be gone by November not because i want him to fail but because he is being out thought by managers of lesser teams and that is the worrying aspect.

Lukaku is sold without being able to replace him, Sanchez might leave too. What does he think is going to happen when Europa comes along. We all knew we needed an attacking creative midfielder it was painfully obvious and yet here we are sitting and wondering what if.
 

Enigma_87

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That's true.

As a club we've showed a lack of vision and inexperience by our decision makers. It's clear there is no concensus on what we want to acheive and how, beyond a vague sense of wanting to be 'successful'. Are we just another team fighting for top four? Or do we want to dominate at home and become a European powerhouse again? What style of football should we play? How much are we willing to spend?

We've flirted with different playing styles, brought in managers whose football philosophies could not be more different and our transfer business seems so random, based more on who is available that what we need.

Once a decision has been made on what we want to achieve and a footballing identity has been decided, things will fall into place; who to appoint as manager, which players fit our vision, and when to replace a manager. I use the word 'replace' rather than 'hit reset' because once a plan is in place changing managers becomes a correction of course rather than a fresh beginning.

This reply is way longer than what I had planned, so I'll leave it here. Thanks for your time :).
Yeah, that's obviously true.

If we have a clear direction from the top we can give us some leeway of who the manager can be and who we can appoint and give time.

The replace rather than reset is spot on. But we do need a proper structure and we need a footballing guy at the very top. We are not doing that and maybe, just maybe I hope we do after yet another season of inappropriate choice.

Our approach is scattered and beyond any logic.

Take the time this season. Put in a caretaker (but don't give him a full time job based on knee jerk results), find a DoF till the end of the season. Find a manager that fits the direction, get scouts that go along with the DoF direction and player profiles, then hit the reset button and even if the next manager is not the right one you will have the same approach, same ideas, same player profiles and hopefully much closer to an actual rebuilt.
 

Wolff

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Teams are coming to Old Trafford using the low Block. Ole and Phelan have not got a clue how to deal with it. They think they can just steamroll every side with pace. Deluded. If you have four pacey attackers that are all the same. In that they all like to run in behind. You counter that but having a low block, sitting deep and picking off the opposition on the break. I like Ole but he should not have got this job it was too big for him.

His formation and tactics are bizarre.

- Gave Mata a new deal to be a supersub. - Mata has made no impact off the bench. He is not an impact player who will change the game off the bench. Mata should start no.10 over Lingard or we should use Gomes as a 10. Dan James should be the sub coming on off the bench. He can change the game with his pace, running at tired defenders. By starting with all four pacey attackers our team is one dimensional and easy to stop.

We need a technician in the there. Mata/Gomes at No.10 - Lingard is stealing a wage as our no.10 - no goals and assists in 2019. Not good enough.

- Pogba-McTominay - two man midfield is not working. Pogba is too deep. He is picking up the ball from Maguire and Lindelof. He is our best source for goals and assists. Get him higher up the pitch! - Switch to a 4-3-3. Get Get Fred, Pereira and Garner in the mix. We need more midfield passers.

McTominay-Fred pivot with Pogba further forward. Maybe. Ole needs to switch up his tactics and XI. Too predictable and easy to stop this Utd side. Pogba is our best player and Lingard is one of our worst. Insane to have Pogba so deep and Lingard as high as he is.
Surely you are having laugh? Or did you see the game saturday? i encourage you to find a heat map of the game. Im not sure the job is to big for Ole, but your job with tactics on football manager needs working. A lot of work!

Lindgard offers two things to the team. That is serious energy when the team look to press high. He is really important in that manner. He also offers good movement finding holes and creating space. That said, he offers a lot to the team without the ball. He does however let him self down with the ball. He picks bad passes. He looses the ball and is not creating much with it. He is given a chance to step up at the moment, and usually managers give players a chance. And they analyze it before moving on. He had to be given a chance, because the club was not successful finding another. YET. His formations and tactics are bizarre? Are you nuts? Both against wolves and Palace Utd played well. against Palace the team had 70% possession. A few personal errors lead to the first goal, but where and when was the tactics wrong? Utd will struggle for some time against teams who dig in deep. Its in the very nature of the squad. It is how the previous managers have built it. I think maybe against teams like that, Mate can do a better job than lingard, because it is more important to open defense with passes. But when pressing, its Lindgards position all day. Until the club sign a new player. The team is already the youngest team in premier league. You think its vise to lay more responsibilities on Gomes? I think its good management playing them kids one step stone at the time.

The one thing i can agree with you on. There is no need for Pogba to come deep. The center backs are ball players, and can stand higher up in the field. But then Maguire can't do schoolboy errors like he did against Palace. He have to fall of when Lindelof is in a duel.
 
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Fluctuation0161

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Even though he said before the beginning of that season he was equipped to win the title. His greatest achievement was convincing fans his stone-age tactics weren't the problem.
I'm no Jose fan. But maybe he used those tactics because it's the most effective way to get results with a weaker, unbalanced squad?

Seems obvious to me.
 

Fluctuation0161

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What is happening now is the exact same things that happened under Mourinho. Defensive lapses, individual errors etc. David De Gea should grab the contract Utd is offering him with both hands because more performances like this and Romero will get his chance.

Ole as i said and will continue to say is out of his depth. He will not see out this season because he is tactically inept. This infatuation with British players will be the end of him. Lingard starts every game offering nothing but when you ask Solksjaer he says "he puts in a shift" is that all you need to be a player for MUFC?
Ole will be gone by November not because i want him to fail but because he is being out thought by managers of lesser teams and that is the worrying aspect.

Lukaku is sold without being able to replace him, Sanchez might leave too. What does he think is going to happen when Europa comes along. We all knew we needed an attacking creative midfielder it was painfully obvious and yet here we are sitting and wondering what if.
Out thought by Roy Hodgson. Damn.
 

The Boy

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Out thought by Roy Hodgson. Damn.
Love Ole or hate him, it doesn't matter, you were not out thought by Roy Hodgson, you weren't outplayed either, you were the better team easily. You missed a penalty and then got caught on the break at the very end as you pushed for a winner. If football was fair you would've won that game easily, as you of won against Wolves as well, but football's not always fair ... just ask Chelsea about the 4-0 scoreline!
 

Madzik_92

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Love Ole or hate him, it doesn't matter, you were not out thought by Roy Hodgson, you weren't outplayed either, you were the better team easily. You missed a penalty and then got caught on the break at the very end as you pushed for a winner. If football was fair you would've won that game easily, as you of won against Wolves as well, but football's not always fair ... just ask Chelsea about the 4-0 scoreline!
Chelsea played better though as the scoreline that is because their defense sucks. But they did control the game and few missed chances. Frank's team much well drill team than Ole's and that is fact.
 

Judge Red

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The call for him to be director of football instead is a good one. The direction he wants to take the club in is sound but as a manager he wouldn’t even get a job with Salford City now.
 

The Boy

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Chelsea played better though as the scoreline that is because their defense sucks. But they did control the game and few missed chances. Frank's team much well drill team than Ole's and that is fact.
Top fact
 

theklr

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Chelsea played better though as the scoreline that is because their defense sucks. But they did control the game and few missed chances. Frank's team much well drill team than Ole's and that is fact.
They have alot more quality in mid though
 

Buster15

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Love Ole or hate him, it doesn't matter, you were not out thought by Roy Hodgson, you weren't outplayed either, you were the better team easily. You missed a penalty and then got caught on the break at the very end as you pushed for a winner. If football was fair you would've won that game easily, as you of won against Wolves as well, but football's not always fair ... just ask Chelsea about the 4-0 scoreline!
Yes. My main concern with Ole is that it is perfectly clear that he is tactically very naive. He is ok when things are going well. But unfortunately he has no real idea how to change things when things go badly.
You only have to look at his body language on the side of the pitch.
Having said that I would expect far more from his coaching team.
There is no invention or experimentation. Substitutions are normally one for one and often far too late.
 

Martialfc

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Solksjaer needs time.. he can do no wrong for me. He got rid of Lukaku and Felaini which are steps in the right direction. It’s not his fault he wasnt backed to get a creative midfielder even though the whole fan base was crying out for one. Solksjaer also knows that Martial is a CF and has way more potential that Rashford. He’s making all the right decisions he just needs time. He will get it right eventually! We can’t keep sacking managers..
 

Alabaster Codify7

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The call for him to be director of football instead is a good one. The direction he wants to take the club in is sound but as a manager he wouldn’t even get a job with Salford City now.

This is actually a pretty damn good idea. He genuinely loves the club and has a clear strategy for what he thinks we need in terms of players - the problem is he doesnt seem very good at coaching those players and his methods seem very dated. Even if he's fired, I'd consider him for the DOF role and he'd definitely accept - this is the pinnacle of management for him, its all downhill after managing Utd.
 

Jezpeza

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You're absolutely right.
I agree with that too.

What makes me laugh quite a lot with the fans that slate Ole is that even if we sack him tomorrow out squad will still contain the same mediocre players. I dont actually think our starting 11 i too bad - if we could get a good RW in and a creative midfielder we’d have a really good one however beyond that youve got a squad with players like darmian, jones, rojo, mata, young, matic putting the pressure on places.

Its naive of any fan to think a different manager turns that pile into a nailed on top 3 team
 

Moustafa Khier

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I guess people are now understanding the Amadaeus assessment that I was ridiculed for in the Ole thread :lol:.

It is not too late to sack him now, it will show conviction from our board for success. However, if his replacement is not Pochettino or maybe someone like Erik ten Hag, he deserve at least one season to buy his own players and implement his philosophy. Maybe get us back to how we were during honeymoon period.
The Pogba, Martial, Rashford, Lingard, are not rhe quality of the MU, less loyality, weak appearance, not spending effort and mentally not clevers, coach with strong personality only will survive here, it was shamefull to lose and low performance, investor has to allocate fund for bringing serious players, Pogba will not bring half money back and dont insist keep him in the games for lossing more
 

Moustafa Khier

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The team will lose supporter all around, by the time media spread and our team going down cultivate nothing even play station no stars, who will buy matches ticket if no champion, the man city captured our area
 

DiceRoller

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its all downhill after managing Utd.
The arrogance around here is amazing. It’s not downhill, not remotely. Right now, there are better jobs (should they become available) in England, Spain, Italy and Germany.
United are a money making club with no playing identity, a thin squad and little hope of silverware.
There are tans that have been dominant over the last 3-5 years that win trophies that matter and have world class players.
 

Lash

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Yes. My main concern with Ole is that it is perfectly clear that he is tactically very naive. He is ok when things are going well. But unfortunately he has no real idea how to change things when things go badly.
You only have to look at his body language on the side of the pitch.
Having said that I would expect far more from his coaching team.
There is no invention or experimentation. Substitutions are normally one for one and often far too late.
Seems knee jerky. Was Pep “tactically naive” when he lost to them at home last year? It was a great result for them, really poor for us. Smash and grab.
 

Buster15

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Seems knee jerky. Was Pep “tactically naive” when he lost to them at home last year? It was a great result for them, really poor for us. Smash and grab.
I was saying the same thing last season.
 

Lash

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I was saying the same thing last season.
Yeah, but what about when we came out a complete different side against Chelsea? Both the other games we had penalties to win and get back into the games we missed. Tinkering for the sake of tinkering isn’t really helpful either. He’s not exactly got subs that can change a game, they need to fit into a pre-trainer system.
 

devilish

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Ole is work in progress. He's green, he's tactics need brushing (ex playing a high line with Maguire and Lindelof is crazy) and his transfer strategy border to the ridiculous. Who only buys local these days? Maybe Nigel Farage? However, there's the making of a decent manager there. His man management skills are quite good, his progressive football is quite nice to see and his tactics are as said flawed but not obsolete. In my opinion we should keep Ole but we need to support him adequately. That means a football CEO, a top DOF, a technical director and decent assistant managers who know a thing or two about football. Ole need help else he'll fail.
 

Jig1234

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Surely you are having laugh? Or did you see the game saturday? i encourage you to find a heat map of the game. Im not sure the job is to big for Ole, but your job with tactics on football manager needs working. A lot of work!

Lindgard offers two things to the team. That is serious energy when the team look to press high. He is really important in that manner. He also offers good movement finding holes and creating space. That said, he offers a lot to the team without the ball. He does however let him self down with the ball. He picks bad passes. He looses the ball and is not creating much with it. He is given a chance to step up at the moment, and usually managers give players a chance. And they analyze it before moving on. He had to be given a chance, because the club was not successful finding another. YET. His formations and tactics are bizarre? Are you nuts? Both against wolves and Palace Utd played well. against Palace the team had 70% possession. A few personal errors lead to the first goal, but where and when was the tactics wrong? Utd will struggle for some time against teams who dig in deep. Its in the very nature of the squad. It is how the previous managers have built it. I think maybe against teams like that, Mate can do a better job than lingard, because it is more important to open defense with passes. But when pressing, its Lindgards position all day. Until the club sign a new player. The team is already the youngest team in premier league. You think its vise to lay more responsibilities on Gomes? I think its good management playing them kids one step stone at the time.

The one thing i can agree with you on. There is no need for Pogba to come deep. The center backs are ball players, and can stand higher up in the field. But then Maguire can't do schoolboy errors like he did against Palace. He have to fall of when Lindelof is in a duel.

Ok. A few things I have to come back on.

- Lingard offers energy when the team look to press high - Yes he does. You missed my point on how ineffective he is vs a low block. He just comes deep picks up the ball. Palace didn't give our front for any space to run in behind. All our front four are similar. I would have started Mata instead of Lingard for this reason.

- Are you just choosing to overlook Lingard's 0 goals and 9 assists in 2019? Pogba is our best source for goals and assist. Lingard has none in 2019. Why is Lingard playing no.10 and why is Pogba playing deep, picking up the ball from the CB's?

- 70% possession - Possession means nothing if you don't create and score goals. Palace/Wolves at times gave us possession. Opposition having a low block means they don't care about possession, they want you to keep the ball so they can pick you off when you lose it. It negates our front 4's ability to hurt them. Without space to run into Rashford, Lingard, Martial and James have less of a chance of hurting them.

- Personal errors lead to us conceding goals but that does not excuse the fact that we didn't create enough or look like scoring. Errors will happen because we are not solid at the back. But you need to be able to respond and score.

- You keep talking about pressing high and Lingard is key. Teams will implement the low block, sit deep. The press won't work. Low block stops Utd creating. it only worked vs CFC because they came at us. Smart teams will just sit deep, frustrate Utd. Lingard pressing isn't going to cut it. Fact is a no.10 needs to a better creator. Running in behind and pressing is not going to get Utd goals. Mata/Gomes deserve a chance. Lingard isn't in form right now.
 

fps

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Well, yes. My point was that the appointment of Ole was a strong PR move designed to increase contentment among the fanbase after Jose Mourinho. I think it was designed to push attention away from the board for any problems at the club. My post wasn't intended as a pop at Ole, who seems to be doing the best he can (whatever people think about it).
I certainly feel better about the club. Importantly, I think the players do too.
 

Buster15

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Yeah, but what about when we came out a complete different side against Chelsea? Both the other games we had penalties to win and get back into the games we missed. Tinkering for the sake of tinkering isn’t really helpful either. He’s not exactly got subs that can change a game, they need to fit into a pre-trainer system.
I very much hope that you are right and I am wrong. We will soon find out.
 

Un4givableB

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The arrogance around here is amazing. It’s not downhill, not remotely. Right now, there are better jobs (should they become available) in England, Spain, Italy and Germany.
United are a money making club with no playing identity, a thin squad and little hope of silverware.
There are tans that have been dominant over the last 3-5 years that win trophies that matter and have world class players.
100% Right

That's why Klopp wound have nothing to do with us, Ed and the board misled Van Gaal & Mourinho about the footballing ambitions of the club, Pochettino must be thanking God that he dodged a bullet of Man Utd under the Glazers.
 

Alabaster Codify7

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The arrogance around here is amazing. It’s not downhill, not remotely. Right now, there are better jobs (should they become available) in England, Spain, Italy and Germany.
United are a money making club with no playing identity, a thin squad and little hope of silverware.
There are tans that have been dominant over the last 3-5 years that win trophies that matter and have world class players.

Two things, mate.

1) - for Ole yes it is the pinnacle of management so anything else won't hold the same level of esteem for him.

2) - do you honestly think Ole is going to get offered those better jobs in Spain, Italy etc after flopping at United?

Big picture, mate.

If OGS is fired from this job, his options will be stuff on the level of the Norwegian league, Udinese, Villareal, that type of thing. And yes - that is very much downhill.

My post was from the viewpoint of Ole should he be fired - not the general opinion of world football on United. I agree with your points about United no longer being a big draw for top-class managers, that wasn't the point of my post.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Love Ole or hate him, it doesn't matter, you were not out thought by Roy Hodgson, you weren't outplayed either, you were the better team easily. You missed a penalty and then got caught on the break at the very end as you pushed for a winner. If football was fair you would've won that game easily, as you of won against Wolves as well, but football's not always fair ... just ask Chelsea about the 4-0 scoreline!
Fair enough. To be fair the board have failed Ole. But he should still have the players at his disposal to beat this Palace team.