Apportioning the blame for our current poor situation

[Foxbatt]

Woodward should take the lion's share for cocking everything up including the recruitment of the managers. But he has mitigating circumstances in hiring LVG and Jose.
But he has absolutely fecked up in making Ole the permanent manager.
Woodward is as much responsible as ole for our season. The buck stops at the top. If Ole is not delivering then it's Woodward to has to take the responsibility.

 

[mancave bear]

Glazers 70%
Woodward 25%
Players 5%
The board?
Ole 0%

1. The Glazers has full controll and are only interested in getting as much money out of us as possible. They have been here for many years, and can be blamed for everything that is wrong. They could/should have fired Woodward a long time ago.

2. Woodward have allso been here for a long time, and have got many chances to do things differently. If he had been a good leader he would focus on what he is best at (making sponsor deals), and lett others negotiate and buy players.

3. Some players havent given us as much as we could have expected, but in the long term that is to be blamed at thouse who bought them.

4. I am not shore how much influence the bord have, but are they to blame for that we dont have a official playing filosofi like Ajax and Barcelona have?

5. I am greatfull that Ole has taken the job of getting us back in shape, and has balls enough to be thinking long term. Needs 3 years, but cant do much if we are selling twice as many players as we are buying, and the rate of buying players is like 0 + 3 + 0? + 3?

 

[Ali Dia]

Glazers 100%

the buck stops with them. They hire and fire Ed the football planing shitshow that he is.

we've spent enough to compete but stupidly left the decisions to a complete novice to the sport.

I fear our big net spending days are over until the glazers leave and we currently need a lot of very clever investment and planning. Put it this way. Would any other huge club give Ed the same job when he leaves United? What a crap ‘experiment’ this has proven to be. Disneyland my arse! the United brand sells itself during the most wealthy period the game has ever seen. Even at that his biggest deals are all based on us performing well on the pitch so he’s basically cocked that up too indirectly. The glazers gave him the power. It’s their fault.

 

[Bobcat]

Think the players are getting off too easy here

50% Woodward/Glazers
30% Players
15% Previous managers
5% Ole

The first one is obvious. The guys on the top are bleeding the club dry and/or running it like a business and not like a football club and its being felt. The way they handle contracts is just bizarre. No one else does this, and for good reason

Not saying the players are downing tools (some did under Jose), but the fact is that they are far from good enough for a club with ambition. I know Ole is a pretty divisive figure right now, but we could have Poch, Nagelsmann, Rose or literally anyone else and i would still think they needed some serious reinforcements before i expected them to challenge for anything of note. If you look at this team and compare them to the great sides under Fergie, very few would make it into the squad and few if any into the first XI

Previous managers recruited very poorly. We went from a side that walked the league under Fergie, with players like RvP, Rooney, Vidic, Evra, Carrick etc to the dross we see today. I love McTomminay for example, but (right now) hes not half the player Carrick/Scholes were. We went from having the best LB in the world to an unfit sick note and a kid.

I dont know if Ole is good enough, he probably isn't, but the task at hand is monumental. LvG failed, Jose failed and he will probably fail as well. Managers are important, but they are not magicians. Pellegrini won the PL and the league cup his first season with City, yet recently got sacked from West Ham for not being good enough.

 

[Shakesy]

Woodward should take the lion's share for cocking everything up including the recruitment of the managers. But he has mitigating circumstances in hiring LVG and Jose.
But he has absolutely fecked up in making Ole the permanent manager.
Woodward is as much responsible as ole for our season. The buck stops at the top. If Ole is not delivering then it's Woodward to has to take the responsibility.

On April 23rd 2019, after OGS was appointed permanently, you posted this: "I don't think appointing Ole was a big mistake."

Posters forget that Ole's appointment was clamoured for by fans and the media.

Sheesh.

 

[TRUERED89]

60% Glazers/Woody (choosing wrong managers/no DoF hired)
30% Manager (choosing shite players/tactics)
10% Players (mentally-physically weak/technically not good enough)

 

[Neil_Buchanan]

Woodward 50% - very poor hiring of managers, failure to support/poor choices in the transfer market and terribly inept public image.

Glazers 30% - hired and not fired Woodward, provided finances for a rebuild but still a financial drain on the club. We would operate much better without this.

Current manager 10% - has my full support, not totally his fault but he has to take some responsibility for an inadequate transfer window which is ruining this season. You do not rebuild by buying 2.5 players.

Current players 10% - i still can't get my head around the ridiculous change in form last season after Jose's sacking. They changed into a different team overnight and that wasn't Solskjaers doing, the players stepped up. Motivation can be complicated but I judge them rather negatively for this.

 

[Ban]

50% fans for accepting the situation
20% Ole
50% Mourinho
5% Ed
0,1% players

 

[SalkinA]

Glazers 70 %
Woodward 20 %
Players 6 %
Managers 4 %

If I could only do 3 changes it would be the owners, the owners right hand man and then the poor quality of players. The coach is a close 4th but no coach can bring a team close to it's 100% potential when the other 3 parts are so far from being optimal.

And the team will never be what it once was as long as the 2 biggest influences are so clueless to how a football club should be run and the main goal is to earn money for the owners, not to be successful on the pitch and winning trophies.

But that won't change as long as sponsors keep throwing money at them and the fans keep buying merchandise and paying to watch the games, either on TV or live.

 

[sunama]

60% Ed Woodward -
ever since this man arrived at the club, we have made a steady downward climb and with the hiring of Ole, he has now brainwashed fans into believing that we must hit rock bottom before we can go back up. Lowering standards. Lowering expectations of fans. The man will stop at nothing to save some money and give it to his bosses, even if it means that over the long term, the club suffers.

35% The Glazers -
they don't care about the club at all, only the money they can milk from it. They continue to hire Woodward, so must take part of the blame.

3% = The Manager -
Ole is doing as good a job as he can. He is a League One level manager, so I don't blame him for our poor performance. No other club in the EPL would hire this guy, but Woodward is using him as a shield.

2% = The Players (individually) -
The players can and will perform better, when the message comes from the top, that standards need to improve. When Jose was here, player performances were dropping, but this was down to Jose himself becoming demotivated. However, while he was here, he had no issues calling out the mentality of certain players. Whether this is wrong or right is irrelevant. The point is that he wanted standards to increase. These days, it seems that it's ok for an attacker to not create or score a goal for a full year. Jose would've sold a player with that performance level.

 

[sunama]

50% fans for accepting the situation
20% Ole
50% Mourinho
5% Ed
0,1% players

Now sure how Mourinho is to blame, but I do agree, fans are complicit with our decline. Supporting a regime which is quite clearly failing and sending us down.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The situation we find ourselves in at the moment goes back to before Fergie retired. Lack of foresight, lack of long-term planning, lack of ability to properly deal with a crucial problem (how to replace a historically great manager who was on the job for more than a quarter of a century - what do we do? Carry on, sort of, or change things up dramatically with regard to structure?).

The owners are responsible for letting Woodward run the show, which is a very considerable part. 35%

Woodward is responsible for not implementing changes the owners probably wouldn't have vetoed (no reason to think they'd be against hiring a DOF, etc.) and also for hiring a string of managers who didn't make logical sense from a succession viewpoint (the squad left by A was clearly not suited to B's "philosophy"). 45%

The manager is responsible for a) bringing in players (we don't have a DOF and the idea that Woodward actually determines what players we go for is largely a conspiracy theory) and b) making the most of the squad available to him at any given time. Given the freedom managers have at United (to bring in players and put their stamp on the football, the "blame" percentage for any given period has to be relatively high (but not very high). 15%

The players are possibly, potentially responsible for being money grabbing cnuts who care more about their huge wages than anything else. But their wages have been okayed by the club - and the fact they're there in first place is down to decisions made by the manager (and then sanctioned by the club). 5%

 

[TRUERED89]

50% fans for accepting the situation
20% Ole
50% Mourinho
5% Ed
0,1% players

125.1% interesting..

 

[Foxbatt]

On April 23rd 2019, after OGS was appointed permanently, you posted this: "I don't think appointing Ole was a big mistake."

Posters forget that Ole's appointment was clamoured for by fans and the media.

Sheesh.

No now in hindsight it was a big mistake. Then it was only a mistake.

 

[Josep Dowling]

Owners are to blame 100%. Whilst Woodward and Judge are useless the owners have had 6 years to sack them for their incompetence and they haven't.

 

[superdonk]

He picks them so he is responsible for them

He did not pick them. Moyes destroyed what we had, LVG & Mourinho did nothing to contribute. Ole's had exactly 1 transfer window, which he used well (multiple bad influences booted, 3 solid signings).

With the string of injuries what they are, there's just not enough experience or depth left in the squad. Can't perform miracles with Ashley Young, Phil Jones and a bunch of inexperienced 19 year olds..

 

[Ban]

Now sure how Mourinho is to blame, but I do agree, fans are complicit with our decline. Supporting a regime which is quite clearly failing and sending us down.

It was a joke. I don't see how fans are supporting it and even if they do how can they be held accountable for the situation the club is in.

 

[wolvored]

Glazers 45 %
Woodward 45 %
Managers 5 %
Players 5 %

 

[redcafe_reader]

On April 23rd 2019, after OGS was appointed permanently, you posted this: "I don't think appointing Ole was a big mistake."

Posters forget that Ole's appointment was clamoured for by fans and the media.

Sheesh.

That poster is not in charge of running Manchester United, so what he posted is irrelevant.

"was clamored for by fans and the media" mean nothing. The actual result of his action means everything. The appointment of Jose was "clamored by fan" there too and we all know how it ended. The selling of Beckham or RVN is not being "clamored for by fan and the media" but in the end, SAF knows better. If Ed appoints the correct manager, he will get praised, so he deserved blame if he appointed the wrong ones. "Fan" and "media" mean nothing in that context.

On topic:

Glazer: 60%
Fan:15%
Ed:10%
Player:10%
Manager:5%

 

[GBBQ]

25% - Glazers
25% - Woodward
25% - Ole
25% - Players

Equal blame for all. The business side are incompetent penny pinchers, pocketing money made of the "brand". The manager is out of his depth and too much of a yes man, the players are either not committed or not good enough. All in their own way are contributing to our complete and utter shambolic showing.

 

[tenpoless]

Owners 30%
Woodward 40%
Ole 15%
Players 15%

 

[Strelok]

Glazers 45 %
Woodward 45 %
Managers 5 %
Players 5 %

Would minus 5 % from the Glazers and 5 % from Ed and give it to the fans.

 

[wolvored]

For me 70% has to go to the glazers. They are stripping every bit of money they can from the club, while every now and then putting their hand in their pocket for players.
25% Woody as he is so ineffective as a go between from the funding to actually getting players in. It takes him forever to complete a deal
The other 5% is everyone else on the playing, managing side. We have so much dross its untrue.
We are a big name club in name only

 

[Deery]

100% the Glazers

 

[Shakesy]

That poster is not in charge of running Manchester United, so what he posted is irrelevant.

"was clamored for by fans and the media" mean nothing. The actual result of his action means everything. The appointment of Jose was "clamored by fan" there too and we all know how it ended. The selling of Beckham or RVN is not being "clamored for by fan and the media" but in the end, SAF knows better. If Ed appoints the correct manager, he will get praised, so he deserved blame if he appointed the wrong ones. "Fan" and "media" mean nothing in that context.

On topic:

Glazer: 60%
Fan:15%
Ed:10%
Player:10%
Manager:5%

His post is as relevant as yours and mine buddy. Which is not at all.

What I was implying is that no appointment or signing for that matter can be judged at the time. Yet, that is what we all do. And then when things turn south we are the first to say it was wrong, regardless of whether we at first thought it was great. It stinks.

Oh, and you say "fan" and media" mean nothing in that context, yet it is the fans and media who praise or blame. So, they mean everything, according to the premise you set.

 

[Coops73]

Glazers 45 %
Woodward 45 %
Managers 5 %
Players 5 %

This, for me too.

 

[redcafe_reader]

His post is as relevant as yours and mine buddy. Which is not at all.

I am glad that you are agreeing with me. Yes, his post, my post, your post, are all irrelevant. So why do you bring it up in the context of Ed appointing Ole? Ed didn't read his post to get inspiration to appoint Ole, so what's the point of checking his history and point it out?

What I was implying is that no appointment or signing for that matter can be judged at the time. Yet, that is what we all do. And then when things turn south we are the first to say it was wrong, regardless of whether we at first thought it was great. It stinks.

So what? This forum is for the discussion. You have your opinion about Ole or Ed, I have my opinion about Ole and Ed, others have their own opinion about Ole and Ed, and we discussed it. If in the end, we are wrong then we are wrong and we can admit it, no big deal. But Ed's job is not that simple, if he fecked up (like that poster implies) then he fecked up, and that's a big deal.

Oh, and you say "fan" and media" mean nothing in that context, yet it is the fans and media who praise or blame. So, they mean everything, according to the premise you set.

In the context of whether Ed fecked up or not, "fan" and "media" mean nothing. Result mean everything. I am not sure of any premise I set?

 

[Freak]

Owners - 30%
Woodward - 30%
Players - 30%
Managers - 10%

 

[James Ward]

For me 70% has to go to the glazers. They are stripping every bit of money they can from the club, while every now and then putting their hand in their pocket for players.
25% Woody as he is so ineffective as a go between from the funding to actually getting players in. It takes him forever to complete a deal
The other 5% is everyone else on the playing, managing side. We have so much dross its untrue.
We are a big name club in name only

Complete and utter nonsense, the club have spent 840 million even since Ferguson retired. The money is there and has been spent. What has happened since Fergie retired is that we bought absolute bang average players every single season and this is solely down to Woodward 50% and the managers in Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho. Look at what players City have bought and Liverpool and then compare them to what United bought.

All outstanding players below:
Sane - 37 million
Salah - 43 million
Robertson - 10 million who is twice the player of AWB.
Fabinho - 39 million
Van Dijk - 75 million and we payed 80 million for Maguire.

The club has become a complete and utter laughing stock when it comes to buying players. How have they got it wrong after and after again. Even the signings in Maguire and AWB are a joke.

There scouting system must be the worst in Europe.

 

[romufc]

Fanbase - 20% for constantly lowering the standards to satisfy their desperation to have a manager for another 20years regardless of quality

Makes alot of sense. People have to accept that Fergie was a one off and another manager like will probably never come again.

We have to operate like every other club now, we cannot keep comparing every manager to Fergie.

Fans need to change the mentality, and stop holding onto the past.

We are here now, it is about how we go forward and accept the fact that we might change managers every 2 years if they dont work out and 5/6 years if they do.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Tricky one because any blame that is Woodward's is essentially also the Glazer's since they could (and obviously should) have sacked him multiple times over for the awful job he's done on the pitch with their asset...

Likewise, the managers have been picked by Woodward and the Glazers - including 2 managerial appointments that are so wildly bad that they serve as literal comedy - so they must share in the blame for the managerial failures also...

And the players have been signed by, and then coached by the above managerial regimes, so I think it's both stupid and unfair to essentially criticize them for 'not being good enough', when we have hard evidence that when employed and coached properly they are all decent (World Cup winners, players who leave United and suddenly regain top form)...

So, with that in mind -

Glazers - 50%
Woodward - 40%
Managers - 7%
Players 3%

 

[Ikon]

Woodward 70% (and Matt Judge recruitment)
Players 15%
Managers 10%
Glazers 5%

Maybe a controversial view, but whatever evils the Glazers are guilty of, failing to hand huge sums of money to United's 'football experts' isn't one of them.
Since SAF retired United have spent approaching a BILLION on new players.
A BILLION to assemble this current squad..!
The Glazer's are not footballing people, they put faith into United's "football experts" to guide the footballing side of the club, and the decisions made here, are utterly incompetent.

The player's that we fail to sign, the players that we do sign, the players that we refuse to sell, the players that we fail to scout....Our recruitment policy is utterly shambolic, a fiasco..!!

 

[romufc]

Complete and utter nonsense, the club have spent 840 million even since Ferguson retired. The money is there and has been spent. What has happened since Fergie retired is that we bought absolute bang average players every single season and this is solely down to Woodward 50% and the managers in Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho. Look at what players City have bought and Liverpool and then compare them to what United bought.

All outstanding players below:
Sane - 37 million
Salah - 43 million
Robertson - 10 million who is twice the player of AWB.
Fabinho - 39 million
Van Dijk - 75 million and we payed 80 million for Maguire.

The club has become a complete and utter laughing stock when it comes to buying players. How have they got it wrong after and after again. Even the signings in Maguire and AWB are a joke.

There scouting system must be the worst in Europe.

It is not actual nonsense because since the last window Jose had, we have spent £50m on fred and the money for AWB, Maguire and James in the summer and sold Lukaku for £75m so really we have only spent circa £120m in the last 2 years of a so called rebuild. It is clear that funds are not being released.

Liverpool have only got it right in the last few windows that doesn't mean they always will. And if you want to compare, why not look at?

Mendy for £50m
Cancelo £50m
Stones £50m

How about James for £15m?

English players have a premium when transfer is to another English club, face it.

How is Maguire and AWB a joke? explain that please? Maguire is probably the best CB after VVD and Laporte.

Lets be honest, Salah was a gamble that paid off. It happens sometimes.

 

[Shakesy]

I am glad that you are agreeing with me. Yes, his post, my post, your post, are all irrelevant. So why do you bring it up in the context of Ed appointing Ole? Ed didn't read his post to get inspiration to appoint Ole, so what's the point of checking his history and point it out?



So what? This forum is for the discussion. You have your opinion about Ole or Ed, I have my opinion about Ole and Ed, others have their own opinion about Ole and Ed, and we discussed it. If in the end, we are wrong then we are wrong and we can admit it, no big deal. But Ed's job is not that simple, if he fecked up (like that poster implies) then he fecked up, and that's a big deal.



In the context of whether Ed fecked up or not, "fan" and "media" mean nothing. Result mean everything. I am not sure of any premise I set?

Omg. I can't believe we've wasted precious minutes talking about this. There must be better things to discuss.

So, you're right, I'm wrong. Move along.

 

[Kopral Jono]

Good thread.

The Glazers for being such shit owners -- thirty percent. Woodward for being clueless as feck for so long -- thirty percent. Moyes, Mourinho and Solskjaer for being a complete idiot, a toxic saboteur and a fraud respectively -- thirty percent. Those sanctimonious fans belonging to a certain demographic for enabling this mess to continue on because of misplaced loyalty -- ten percent.

 

[James Ward]

It is not actual nonsense because since the last window Jose had, we have spent £50m on fred and the money for AWB, Maguire and James in the summer and sold Lukaku for £75m so really we have only spent circa £120m in the last 2 years of a so called rebuild. It is clear that funds are not being released.

Liverpool have only got it right in the last few windows that doesn't mean they always will. And if you want to compare, why not look at?

Mendy for £50m
Cancelo £50m
Stones £50m

How about James for £15m?

English players have a premium when transfer is to another English club, face it.

How is Maguire and AWB a joke? explain that please? Maguire is probably the best CB after VVD and Laporte.

Lets be honest, Salah was a gamble that paid off. It happens sometimes.

If you sign a full back for United you expect quality going forward which AWB does not have whatsoever. A decent defender he is but going forward he's shocking. He's a better than average player.

Come on Maguire is not worth 80 million. Only reason we got him is because our scouts, Woodward and Ole are clueless on what players to buy. Plenty of defenders out there who are better than him. We paid 80 million for him because he is English.

Salah wasn't really a gamble he was tearing up the Italian league before he signed for Liverpool. I would say Liverpools scouts watched him like a hawk.

 

[Nickelodeon]

Why most people blame the manager more than the players? We can't blame the laziness and irresponsibility of Lingard, Lindelof, etc on Ole. That's true he chose them, but when they are paid a fortune and being chosen they need to at least try their best. A lot of our players just hide behind the manager, whether it's Mourinho, Ole and it will continue with the next manager.

If you have world class players who have shown enough evidence of quality performances across their careers and then they don’t perform, you blame the players.

But when you have players like Lingard (most pertinent example among many others) who has given an insane amount of evidence to his lack of any capability to perform for United and still he gets regularly picked, who do you blame. The manager or Lingard?

Now the same thought process for Woodward to continually stick with Ole despite a clear and obvious (No VAR needed!) view that he’s not capable of getting us anywhere close to top 4, let alone the title.

And similarly from Glazers towards Woodward.

Its a sad chain but the maximum accountability lies at the top trickling down in value as the hierarchy flows.

 

[el3mel]

40% Woodward.
40% Ole.
20% Players.

 

[kouroux]

He did not pick them. Moyes destroyed what we had, LVG & Mourinho did nothing to contribute. Ole's had exactly 1 transfer window, which he used well (multiple bad influences booted, 3 solid signings).

With the string of injuries what they are, there's just not enough experience or depth left in the squad. Can't perform miracles with Ashley Young, Phil Jones and a bunch of inexperienced 19 year olds..

He is currently picking them isn't he ?
No amount of injuries, suspensions justify starting Lingard. Just for that alone, OGS displays that he is out of his depth and clueless

But where does that end? The Glazers? Yet, they have given Woodward and his managers almost a billion pounds.

I never said the owners were innoncent

It's true if it only happens under Ole. But it happened under Mourinho, a strict manager and under Ole, a more friendly manager. Also by that logic Ed pick Ole so he's responsible for Ole, and Glazer pick Ed (and keep) so all responsibility should be on the Glazer?

What I am trying to say is, you can't put in the same performance as Lingard, or Lindelof, or a lot of our other players at a club like Real or Barcelona. But until this year there is almost nobody in the stadium, or in the media, criticize them, so it seems our "culture" allows that to continue. Lingard has been doing feck all for who knows how long, but there is still a big fan base that maintains the opinion he is "hard-working". In my opinion, the same can be said about Lindelof, Shaw, Mata, Martial, etc. I didn't include Pogba since he already got too much abuse from the media and our legends.

Just because I didn't Mourinho or even LVG, doesn't mean they're not guilty too. You assumed I'm blaming Ole alone and that's your mistake

 

[romufc]

If you sign a full back for United you expect quality going forward which AWB does not have whatsoever. A decent defender he is but going forward he's shocking. He's a better than average player.

Come on Maguire is not worth 80 million. Only reason we got him is because our scouts, Woodward and Ole are clueless on what players to buy. Plenty of defenders out there who are better than him. We paid 80 million for him because he is English.

Salah wasn't really a gamble he was tearing up the Italian league before he signed for Liverpool. I would say Liverpools scouts watched him like a hawk.

I guarantee you if we signed a RB who was brilliant going forward and crap at the back you would have said, he is not good enough defensively for Manutd. When he was signed everyone knew he is a defensive full back.

Tbh, if you actually look at it properly the whole team is weak going forward, he will improve in that department he is only young.

Which defenders out there are better than him then? please also bare in mind CB's take a 6-8 months minimum to settle into the PL from Europe.