I genuinely believe defenders and players in general used to have a more attacking threat in the air than they do today. Defenders don’t really get into physical aerial battles anymore as most teams at the top level like to play football on the floor. There aren’t many Hartson, Sutton, Caroll type strikers which means there’s not as much tendency to nurture defenders who are good in the air. It was unheard of 20 years ago to have a centre back who couldn’t head a ball as their strength. Yet it’s not seen as much of a problem nowadays. We have Bailly and Lindelof who aren’t great in the air. Anyway just a theory.
Are corners really a good opportunity to score a goal?
- Thread starter Klopper76
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
In theory, the closer the ball to goal, the higher percentage to score, but I agree with you, coners are not that efficient
The corner format is outdated. Keep 'corners' but take them on the goal line 20 meters closer to the goal. You want to say that's daft but you've pictured it and you know it's a fecking great idea.
It's a combination of working on a routine, having a good delivery or somebody who can take it and then it landing to somebody who can utilise the ball correctly
The Sherringham corner was fantastic
The corner to the edge of the box when Scholes was free too
Also the goal that lead to us winning the CL in 99, is very hard to defend if done correctly (though Oles reactions helped so a bit of luck needed too)
I think it's like free kicks , if you practice routines you have a better chance than just lumping it in hoping your biggest or tallest player gets on the end of it
The Sherringham corner was fantastic
The corner to the edge of the box when Scholes was free too
Also the goal that lead to us winning the CL in 99, is very hard to defend if done correctly (though Oles reactions helped so a bit of luck needed too)
I think it's like free kicks , if you practice routines you have a better chance than just lumping it in hoping your biggest or tallest player gets on the end of it
Taking a corner as a cross into the box is a low-percentage change - with a high-percentage risk of a dangerous counter-attack. So yes, very much overrated, and not worth the excitement on the side of the attacking team to 'throw the ball into the mixer'. On the other hand, corners are a clean position of possession, where often there are acres of space around the corner taker. Teams that practice these seriously should be able to get more out of them than a low-percentage cross - and I don't mean by recycling possession back to the centre circle and restarting the attack from there. I mean more like this one from Leicester the other week:
Only one defender is following the attacked for the short corner, meaning that, immediately once it's taken, Leicester are 2 vs 1 just outside the box. This allows Albrighton to run into the box with the ball with a lot space to provide a very dangerous assist over the ground.
This is clearly rehearsed and has huge potential. Of course, teams will start responding when this becomes more common (e.g., by putting a defender near the corner taker like for any free kick); but that then leaves space open somewhere else that can be exploited. I am not sure why more isn't done with this sort of thing; but now throw-in coaches are a thing, surely corners can become more of a science as well.
Going back to corners-as-crosses though, I also found this one interesting:
There's a kind of rugby scrum happening around the spot, which is also clearly rehearsed on the Gladbach side, and they execute much better than Dortmund's defense against it. (Thuram can basically just walk through that bunch of Dortmund players towards a free header.)
Only one defender is following the attacked for the short corner, meaning that, immediately once it's taken, Leicester are 2 vs 1 just outside the box. This allows Albrighton to run into the box with the ball with a lot space to provide a very dangerous assist over the ground.
This is clearly rehearsed and has huge potential. Of course, teams will start responding when this becomes more common (e.g., by putting a defender near the corner taker like for any free kick); but that then leaves space open somewhere else that can be exploited. I am not sure why more isn't done with this sort of thing; but now throw-in coaches are a thing, surely corners can become more of a science as well.
Going back to corners-as-crosses though, I also found this one interesting:
There's a kind of rugby scrum happening around the spot, which is also clearly rehearsed on the Gladbach side, and they execute much better than Dortmund's defense against it. (Thuram can basically just walk through that bunch of Dortmund players towards a free header.)
I haven't seen Ted Lasso yet, but the obvious move is to get a basketball (out of bounds plays) or American football offensive coach (literally every play is a set piece basically) on staff to handle set pieces. Not sure why teams don't all have a consultant or coach to do that.
Even if it doesn’t end up in a goal teams still get possession in a dangerous area of the pitch so concluding that corners aren’t effective because of the ratio of goals scored per corner kicks taken doesn’t really make sense.
Fergie used to water the pitch mercilessly. Is there anything in the actual rules that says clubs can't use wind machines?
This is the way. You don't have to smash it into the box
he’s talked about it since he’s retired.Because he was fed up of being bullied by Stoke and Rory Delap
He's still having those recurring nightmares of that former javelin throwing player then, unh?
I think he’s got a point. Problem is that ‘kick-ins’ swing the balance far too far in the other direction.
Ask Kurt Zouma. He has 4 goals from set pieces making him Chelsea's joint 2nd top scorer
Would a kick in with zero run up be fair? How far can a pro footballer kick a ball without taking a step?
Pretty sure it's always been around that. ~2.0-2.5%
Source: heard a commentator reference it around 2004. "This season it's been around 1 in 20, which is quite high as normally it's around 1 in 50...."
Not sure you need three headers to score an outswinger. We've taken plenty where a half decent header into the ground would be a goal. Our players just seem to want to bury the header top corner or setting.
Depends who is taking your corners and how. With Digne and Rodriguez taking ours we always have a good chance of scoring I reckon.
Generally not, but it depends:
You can see how quickly the odds can increase when you have a player who is exceptional in the air. Zouma at Chelsea is very difficult to pin down at a set-piece. And while I haven't watched so much of Everton I imagine Yerry Mina is a similar handful (DCL pretty effective too) with Digne providing some of the most dangerous deliveries in the league.
I much prefer short corners for these reasons but look at a matchday thread when we take two in a row. Half the thread is angrily shouting to stop 'faffing about' with these short corners.
I prefer short corners, even though they seem wildly unpopular in the matchday threads, for some reason.
We're pretty awful at crossing the ball in straight from the corner. Far too many go straight to the first man for an easy clearance, or Maguire will win a header and blaze it high and wide. Or we sail it towards the edge of the 6 yard box without blocking the keeper, so he steps out for an easy catch. I'd rather we just went short and carry on with open play possession.
Maguire is obviously doing something right by winning so many of his headers, but his accuracy is so poor, it's not really worth it.
We're pretty awful at crossing the ball in straight from the corner. Far too many go straight to the first man for an easy clearance, or Maguire will win a header and blaze it high and wide. Or we sail it towards the edge of the 6 yard box without blocking the keeper, so he steps out for an easy catch. I'd rather we just went short and carry on with open play possession.
Maguire is obviously doing something right by winning so many of his headers, but his accuracy is so poor, it's not really worth it.
Someone mentioned throw-ins earlier, and I've always wondered why teams don't 'kick for touch' more. So often teams will just hoof the ball clear in the hope the lone attacker can retain possession from 3 defenders just inside the opposition half, but it would be so much more effective to aim to kick the ball out of play as close to the corner flag as possible. It would buy time for the defending team to push out, if the attacking team is pressed high up the pitch then there's an opportunity for the whole team to push out and pressurise the opposition in their own half, and when teams start responding to the tactic by leaving defenders deeper to cover, then it inevitably just buys more space for the defending team to transition into.
Or simply introduce the 10 yard advantage as with other set pieces.
Finally see someone else that has noticed this!
I've always felt that defensive throw ins deep in your own half are an incredibly dangerous situation and am sort of amazed that the likes of Sean Dyche etc haven't started playing a sort of rugby method where you try to kick the ball out as close to the opposition touchline as you can. Having a defensive throw in there means you have one player out of play (taking the throw) a limited distance they can throw, whoever they throw to always has to take an awkward touch while outnumbered and being closed down from the 3-4 players in and around him. I always make a note of these situations in my head because it usually ends with the opposite team having possession on the half way line and running at the defending teams box in some manner.
Now GETTING footballers to kick the ball into touch like that would be a managerial challenge but it's one way to deal with a high pressing team like Liverpool or City - just smash in crossfield diagonally as far as you can. I swear Norway beat Brazil 4-2 once by doing just that.
I think if you have a delivery like Beckham's or Ward-Prowse, inswinging corners are a huge threat. Especially when you crowd a keeper like De Gea who isn't commanding in the air.
I can't get on board with this trend of outswingers though. Even if a player wins the head, they've got so much work to do to get the power and accuracy.
I can't get on board with this trend of outswingers though. Even if a player wins the head, they've got so much work to do to get the power and accuracy.
Looking at those corner stats in isolation isn't really that helpful. 1 in 50 or whatever may seem low, but the chances of anything being successful are pretty low in football. I remember this article from a few years ago showing that the number of crosses that resulted in a goal (including second phases) was only about 1 goal per 45 crosses. Hell, look at actual shots on target, I doubt that more than 10% of actual shots result in goals, and that's a situation where the ball has already reached the player.
The Guardian had a big piece on this a few years ago. it's about 1:45
"Crosses are good" - David Moyes
Corners = direct crosses into the box
Corners are good
Corners = direct crosses into the box
Corners are good
Maguire also often commits attacking fouls (or is given attacking fouls by referees - remember the disallowed goal he scored recently)
This is probably the most dangerous I have seen a Everton team at corners. That table only shows league games so is not including what we have scored in the cups as for example we scored 2 against Shef Wed on Sunday.
There are two reasons for why we have looked so dangerous this season. Firstly we have lot of players who are great at attacking for ball. DCL, Mina, Keane and Richarlison are excellent in that regard and then also because of injuries we have been playing with Holgate and Godfrey as full backs which has been a added bonus from corners with their height.
The second reason is James Rodriguez. It feels like every corner he takes it perfect and he's proving to be a level above even Digne in taking them.
We certainly don't help ourselves with the curved sloping bullshit at OT that's for sure.
Others also have the turf crap, that doesn't help either.
It also depends hugely on who's taking the corner, not just who is on the end of it.
You put David Beckham or Totti, Pirlo, and you got yourself a good chance of scoring.
Anybody willing to pull out some stats? Most corner assists?
Others also have the turf crap, that doesn't help either.
It also depends hugely on who's taking the corner, not just who is on the end of it.
You put David Beckham or Totti, Pirlo, and you got yourself a good chance of scoring.
Anybody willing to pull out some stats? Most corner assists?
Corners put the ball into the area and you have to have the ball in there to score generally.
But having tonnes of players in there also takes the space away.
But you only have to look at how many times Maguire has got his full head on a ball close in to see they could be a great source of goals if he could find some accuracy.
But having tonnes of players in there also takes the space away.
But you only have to look at how many times Maguire has got his full head on a ball close in to see they could be a great source of goals if he could find some accuracy.
agreed. That would be sensible.
Ah jaysus can you imagine? Constantly hoofing the ball out of play and everyone legging it over to press the opposition.
There's a German tactician who spoke about exactly this, he said they had great results with the system but the players grumbled that much that it had to be abandoned (can't remember the name).
That said I am surprised that it's never really been tried at the top level but as we've seen with first, Guardiola and tika-taka and nowadays Klopps Gegenpress that it doesn't take that long for a successful idea to become the vogue. However, you'd have to get the players (and fans!!!) onboard with it first.
Easy way to counter this if it did become a common problem would be to make any defensive throw in in your own half a free kick on the line instead, OR allow a large range of movement for anyone taking the throw. This should probably happen anyway, teams shouldn't be punished for having to throw in their own half. Gary Neville used to take the piss a bit by running half way up the half before he threw the ball in, not sure if refs are a bit more pernicikity these days.
Yes he does foul his opponent quite often in attacking set pieces. However, ironically the goal that was disallowed I actually felt was legitimate and a soft decision to give it a foul. I honestly think the ref was eager to disallow it because he felt he had to balance up the potential red card to shaw.
He seemed to do it a lot more regularly for Leicester and England than for us.
I'm always hopeful we will score when we get a corner and nervous when we concede one when I probably should not based on probability.
I think it's more a mental thing of having possession in a dangerous area, threat of a goal etc.
I know Harry has been getting some criticism recently for not scoring from corners but I like the fact he gets there and is perceived a danger and someone for the opposition to worry about.
I was gutted for him his Burnley goal was disallowed. It's what you want to see a fantastic thumping header where he's out muscled the opponent. Don't forget Harry scoring one or two headers early in the season seemed to boost his confidence after a difficult summer.
I think it's more a mental thing of having possession in a dangerous area, threat of a goal etc.
I know Harry has been getting some criticism recently for not scoring from corners but I like the fact he gets there and is perceived a danger and someone for the opposition to worry about.
I was gutted for him his Burnley goal was disallowed. It's what you want to see a fantastic thumping header where he's out muscled the opponent. Don't forget Harry scoring one or two headers early in the season seemed to boost his confidence after a difficult summer.
What do you mean by 'get possession in a dangerous area'? From my perspective, the corner kick is possession, but that's not a dangerous area; and when it's crossed into the box, it's anybody's ball and does not count as possession anymore. What's more, as soon as the defending team gets some control over the ball, you have a dangerous counter-attack on your hands. (Dangerous, because the attacking team is likely completely out of shape and position due to the corner.)
Didn't Van Gaal use that? Or at least, I do think he instructed his teams that, when returning the ball to the opponent (e.g., after an injury treatment) to kick it into touch exactly like that.
You can add freekicks to that - the number of freekicks scored each season is ridiculously low. Of course there are no stats to show many direct freekicks are direct attempts on goal - but look at this:
19/20 - a total of 25 goals scored from direct freekicks, the season before it was 23. So far this season only 9 with Ward-Prowse getting 3 of them.
And with the number of goals each season usually ranging from 900 - 1100 - to try to score a direct freekick in the Premier League is usually a waste of time unless your name is Ward-Prowse
19/20 - a total of 25 goals scored from direct freekicks, the season before it was 23. So far this season only 9 with Ward-Prowse getting 3 of them.
And with the number of goals each season usually ranging from 900 - 1100 - to try to score a direct freekick in the Premier League is usually a waste of time unless your name is Ward-Prowse
i feel these days teams do not seriously think nor practice corner routines. They treat it as 50 -50 yet its a very good opportunity to score goals from