Are English players overrated or is it Southgate ?

[ryadmahrez]

This is all cap. Mount just won the champions league with Chelsea being one of their main players. Locatelli is a player who couldn't live up to his hype at Milan and had to go to a tiny team to even bring some semblence of consistent play. He is playing great because he is in a system with a great manager.

So because he had a slow start to his career, he can’t be a good player now? The same touch, playing between the lines, playing in tight spaces and creativity isn’t there when he plays for his club? Ive got news for you, its still there. It’s maybe more highlighted due to playing with better players, but it’s him. In a possession based team, a 4-3-3, Locatelli is better than Mount. Locatelli will let the team play better, with more progressive passes between the lines, quick play/combinations, which helps playing out of pressure or low blocks. Mount is more a guy who excels in exploiting spaces, due to runs or dribbles. He can do what Locatelli does, but not as good imo.

 

[Lee565]

The best options england have if the fa persist with english managers would be lampard, gerrard and potter, all 3 are better than southgate and play better football.

 

[JPRouve]

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ue-2020-21-review-young-players-of-the-season

The lunacy of the entire paragraph is amazing. Even if you rate Foden very highly it's pure foolishness to be that hyperbolic about someone that has achieved and experienced very little in Football.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The lunacy of the entire paragraph is amazing. Even if you rate Foden very highly it's pure foolishness to be that hyperbolic about someone that has achieved and experienced very little in Football.

It is hyperbolic nonsense (Messi and Maradona comparisons can't be anything but) but he's already achieved more in football than the vast majority of players ever do.

 

[Ballache]

Moyes?

You know exactly who I mean!

 

[JPRouve]

It is hyperbolic nonsense (Messi and Maradona comparisons can't be anything but) but he's already achieved more in football than the vast majority of players ever do.

What has he done individually to make you think that? We are talking about someone that has just played 69 PL games and started 29 of them in his entire career.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

What has he done individually to make you think that? We are talking about someone that has just played 69 PL games and started 29 of them in his entire career.

He was a key player in the Champions League final run for City, he made the Champions League squad of the season, he was one of City's best players in the title run in, he was the man of the match in the League Cup Final 2019-20, he made the under 17 Euros team of the tournament, he won the u17 World Cup golden player, won Premier League and PFA young player of the year also won the Alan Hardaker trophy (whatever that is!). Like it or not, the vast majority of professional players don't achieve what he has.

 

[JPRouve]

He was a key player in the Champions League final run for City, he made the Champions League squad of the season, he was one of City's best players in the title run in, he was the man of the match in the League Cup Final 2019-20, he made the under 17 Euros team of the tournament, he won the u17 World Cup golden player, won Premier League and PFA young player of the year also won the Alan Hardaker trophy (whatever that is!). Like it or not, the vast majority of professional players don't achieve what he has.

And that's not much, you are basically talking about one good season at professional level and a cup final. U17 achievements are totally irrelevant, it would be funny if anyone did that for Panzo or even Gouiri. Many players that have done significantly more than he has are deemed disappointments. Foden is very talented but he has done very little in Football, we can start comparing him to all time greats when he is actually leading a team or started at least the equivalent of one PL season.

 

[red4ever 79]

God I love international tournaments. All this 'football is coming home nonsense' the arrogance of the media, press, player, fans. Look at their team
Pickford - Average
RB - None of them are elite quality
Mings - Minging
Rice - Meh
Phillips - Meh
Mount - Potential
Miley Cyrus - Potential
Sterling - Selfish cnut
Kane - Looks knackered
Southgate - Shite

There are better players on the bench

 

[JPRouve]

God I love international tournaments. All this 'football is coming home nonsense' the arrogance of the media, press, player, fans. Look at their team
Pickford - Average
RB - None of them are elite quality
Mings - Minging
Rice - Meh
Phillips - Meh
Mount - Potential
Miley Cyrus - Potential
Sterling - Selfish cnut
Kane - Looks knackered
Southgate - Shite

There are better players on the bench

It's not arrogance but self-depricating jokes, most british fans aren't being serious. The international version of "Next year is our year".

 

[Kentonio]

We have a large number of players who play for top level club teams and some of the most highly rated youngsters in the world. Meanwhile we also have a manager who couldn't get a job at any of the top sides.

Hmm, I wonder where the problem lies..

 

[JPRouve]

We have a large number of players who play for top level club teams and some of the most highly rated youngsters in the world. Meanwhile we also have a manager who couldn't get a job at any of the top sides.

Hmm, I wonder where the problem lies..

That's the case for almost all top nations, not to say that Southgate is good but I find it a bit surprising that so many english fans think that they can get a sought-after manager.

 

[RUCK4444]

We have a large number of players who play for top level club teams and some of the most highly rated youngsters in the world. Meanwhile we also have a manager who couldn't get a job at any of the top sides.

Hmm, I wonder where the problem lies..

Yeah pretty much this. However there is a slight sprinkling over overrating players like Grealish and Foden, both are good players, the latter has the talent to be elite but not yet.

So they put too much expectation and pressure on these players, whilst also underachieving.

As a Welshman watching England games I think you should look a lot better than you do with the players at your disposal.

 

[TheReligion]

God I love international tournaments. All this 'football is coming home nonsense' the arrogance of the media, press, player, fans. Look at their team
Pickford - Average
RB - None of them are elite quality
Mings - Minging
Rice - Meh
Phillips - Meh
Mount - Potential
Miley Cyrus - Potential
Sterling - Selfish cnut
Kane - Looks knackered
Southgate - Shite

There are better players on the bench

Reckon you're a good laugh at parties

 

[TheReligion]

That's the case for almost all top nations, not to say that Southgate is good but I find it a bit surprising that so many english fans think that they can get a sought-after manager.

Who would be a sought after manager though in your opinion?

I think most would be interested in the England job providing they were at that point of their career where they were ready for international football.

 

[Bangalla]

Haha, one semi-poor performance against Scotland and the meltdown is total. Southgate is still the most successful England manager since sir Bobby Robson, no?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

And that's not much, you are basically talking about one good season at professional level and a cup final. U17 achievements are totally irrelevant, it would be funny if anyone did that for Panzo or even Gouiri. Many players that have done significantly more than he has are deemed disappointments. Foden is very talented but he has done very little in Football, we can start comparing him to all time greats when he is actually leading a team or started at least the equivalent of one PL season.

The article actually compares two physical movements of Foden's those to two players not ability, quality or achievements. It's another storm in a teacup. Although I don't think even comparing in any way to those players is helpful because the comments can easily be misconstrued and made into something else by others.

 

[JPRouve]

Who would be a sought after manager though in your opinion?

I think most would be interested in the England job providing they were at that point of their career where they were ready for international football.

Manager that offered jobs at top clubs, as Kentonio alluded to?

Managers that are ready for international football are almost exclusively has-been or below average club coaches. There are few exceptions like Deschamps, Mancini or Tite but these are particular cases all of them manage the national team of their own countries and in the case of the first two, circumstances have created that opportunity, Mancini was managing Zenith which is the first step toward club retirement.

 

[MU655]

We have five players in the squad who played in the CL final.

The quality is there. The problem is the manager is total crap and the players don't even seem fussed about winning.

 

[Stacks]

I said in the match thread. We have as starters Henderson, Shaw, AWB, Rashford, Maguire and Greenwood.
We are linked with Rice, Grealish and Sancho with most United fans saying we would be much better and can challenge if we sign Sancho and Rice.
Now I’m not hating on English players or the country by the way but watching them I don’t see a team that are world class.
Is the squad just overrated or is just Southgate being clueless ?
I think it’s both but mainly Southgate can English fans give me their opinions as I don’t watch England all the time

bit of both. On the one hand, many of our the England squad are playing for league winners and CL finalists (Even Trippier starts for a title winner) but another claim is you see the true level of an Englishman when playing with other Englishman and not their foreign counterparts who add another element. We do however have a very ordinary manager

 

[TheReligion]

Manager that offered jobs at top clubs, as Kentonio alluded to?

Managers that are ready for international football are almost exclusively has-been or below average club coaches. There are few exceptions like Deschamps, Mancini or Tite but these are particular cases all of them manage the national team of their own countries and in the case of the first two, circumstances have created that opportunity, Mancini was managing Zenith which is the first step toward club retirement.

That's fair enough. It sounded as though you were suggesting England wasn't an attractive proposal. It's fair to say "international ready" managers/coaches are usually not at the peak of their powers but I think out of the pool that is England are as attractive as anyone, if not more.

 

[Jev]

This thread will look funny if England win the Euros.

You guys are just massively overreacting to a poor game that still resulted in a useful result. England are well on their way towards winning the group and should still be considered a contender.

 

[VorZakone]

This thread will look funny if England win the Euros.

You guys are just massively overreacting to a poor game that still resulted in a useful result. England are well on their way towards winning the group and should still be considered a contender.

I can guarantee England isn't winning the tournament.

 

[Foxbatt]

Who next after Southgate?

How about Woodgate?

 

[JPRouve]

The article actually compares two physical movements of Foden's those to two players not ability, quality or achievements. It's another storm in a teacup. Although I don't think even comparing in any way to those players is helpful because the comments can easily be misconstrued and made into something else by others.

There is no storm, one can think that it's a ridiculous comparison without it being a big deal. Though I would say that it's unhelpful and contributes to way too high future expectations, french journalists have the habit of doing it and later use their own foolishness against players.

 

[Bwuk]

All the talk before the game was that England were shit and that Scotland were underrated.

No-one was saying Scotland were under rated after getting beat 2-0 off of Czech Republic.

Now Billy Gilmour is the second coming of Jesus.

Correct.

Even though they were playing players from Chelsea, Man United, Arsenal and Liverpool, while McGinn 'only' plays for Aston Villa yet by the end of the game England were playing two Aston Villa players. Scotland have really nothing up front, but defence and midfield would be pushing Europa League level in the PL.

Not me who said it, I think the Scotland side is on paper one of the stronger sides we’ve had in years. We’ve got some obvious weaknesses, but overall it’s the best it’s been in a while.

All the English pundits and media have hyped this team up beyond belief. England were poor against Croatia as wel.

 

[Eplel]

England up front faces the same issue they used to face in the midfield when they played Lampard and Gerrard together.
Foden, Sterling and Mount, they all want to be the star player, and their styles don't match together. They don't co-operate with each other, and only Mount seems to be a little interested in assisting Kane.

This team would be 10 times better with Sancho and Grealish on, not necessarily because they're better than Sterling, Mount or Foden, but because they're much better team players.

On top of that, Rice is more than capable as a sole DM, Southgate should reconsider playing Phillips there in games where England is supposed to dominate.

 

[JPRouve]

That's fair enough. It sounded as though you were suggesting England wasn't an attractive proposal. It's fair to say "international ready" managers/coaches are usually not at the peak of their powers but I think out of the pool that is England are as attractive as anyone, if not more.

No, I meant in general. Among national teams England is probably the most attractive but the pool of candidates won't be very good.

 

[TheReligion]

No, I meant in general. Among national teams England is probably the most attractive but the pool of candidates won't be very good.

Yeah agreed.

 

[The Firestarter]

This thread will look funny if England win the Euros.

You guys are just massively overreacting to a poor game that still resulted in a useful result. England are well on their way towards winning the group and should still be considered a contender.

If they are smart they should not want to win the group. Another shit 0-0 in the last game makes the most sense actually.

 

[mancan92]

So because he had a slow start to his career, he can’t be a good player now? The same touch, playing between the lines, playing in tight spaces and creativity isn’t there when he plays for his club? Ive got news for you, its still there. It’s maybe more highlighted due to playing with better players, but it’s him. In a possession based team, a 4-3-3, Locatelli is better than Mount. Locatelli will let the team play better, with more progressive passes between the lines, quick play/combinations, which helps playing out of pressure or low blocks. Mount is more a guy who excels in exploiting spaces, due to runs or dribbles. He can do what Locatelli does, but not as good imo.

Mount has proved to be a far better player over his career so far that's just facts. Performed at a higher level and didn't crumble when the pressure came to perform for a big team when young. Doesn't mean things can't change but for now only one of them has produced top performances at the highest level and another who struggled and was sold.

 

[red4ever 79]

Reckon you're a good laugh at parties

Its always amusing to us non English every major tournament is the same. The overhype and arrogance. It was beautiful last night

 

[krentz]

I dont understand why cant southgate fielded this team?

Pickford:
walker stones Ming shaw:
Rice:
Foden Mount:
sancho Kane Grealish

Look at the numbers of technical players in that line up. I dont even think Portugal or Italy were blessed with that many gifted players in their disposal. Also by playing Foden, Mount, sancho together England would have a strong backbone for the world cup next year.

 

[Raven]

I think England are being severely held back by Southgate. His insistence on playing Foden is as confusing as it is annoying.

 

[Hulme91]

Its always amusing to us non English every major tournament is the same. The overhype and arrogance. It was beautiful last night

Sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder lad
Interesting that you choose to support an English team as well

 

[TheLord]

Most English football fans are so fixated on the English game - the Premier League / the Domestic Cups / sometimes lower leagues - that they have a very biased and myopic view of football/footballers outside England. That reflects in the media as England are always projected as one of the biggest contenders for major international trophies.

If you create a poll in this forum, for many posters, the best midfielder in the world would be Bruno, the best defender would be Maguire, the best fullback would be Shaw, the best central midfielder would be Pogba, the best goalkeeper (until two years back) would be De Gea, and the most promising youngster in world football would be Greenwood. You can’t blame them entirely as they’ve barely seen anything outside of the Premier League / English domestic cups.

So yes, the players are overrated and certainly the manager is overrated.

 

[thepolice123]

The problem wasn't because he played two DMs.

If you actually watch the match, Phillips played box-to-box and made several runs forward to combine with the attackers. He was also responsible for breaking up their counters. The main issues were the under-performing attackers and Southgate's inability to find the correct combination for both fullbacks-wingers and striker-wingers. Personally I thought Shaw played decent but Sterling was average. Also Scotland recognised the potential threat down the left, and similar to how teams used to stop us, they guarded the area tightly. On the right James and Foden played like complete strangers.

Most English football fans are so fixated on the English game - the Premier League / the Domestic Cups / sometimes lower leagues - that they have a very biased and myopic view of football/footballers outside England. That reflects in the media as England are always projected as one of the biggest contenders for major international trophies.

If you create a poll in this forum, for many posters, the best midfielder in the world would be Bruno, the best defender would be Maguire, the best fullback would be Shaw, the best central midfielder would be Pogba, the best goalkeeper (until two years back) would be De Gea, and the most promising youngster in world football would be Greenwood. You can’t blame them entirely as they’ve barely seen anything outside of the Premier League / English domestic cups.

So yes, the players are overrated and certainly the manager is overrated.

You don't have to something ridiculous like that in your head to support your point. Most people here don't even think that way, and if a poll is indeed created, it would be pretty split.

 

[UpWithRivers]

This reads like an Ole In/Out thread with different actors

 

[TheLord]

You don't have to something ridiculous like that in your head to support your point. Most people here don't even think that way, and if a poll is indeed created, it would be pretty split.

You should read posts better. I never said “most people here.”
And it would be farcical if such a poll would be “pretty split”, wouldn’t it?

 

[tjb]

What is annoying are that two or three regular English themes keep popping up when fans and media are discussing who to play.

First there is the overhype of Phil Foden. I personally feel that Mount is and will be better. He's the one who has actually been creating any chance that England has, yet Foden is the one "getting people out of their seats". I don't think he is or has performed better than what Sane did for City in 2018, yet that hype never existed for him. I know he's different to any English player before him, but that doesn't mean he's the saviour england are looking for. Grealish was better this season, as was Sancho, both statistically and in performance. You can argue that Grealish is older, but Sancho is about the same age, taking more responsibility, producing more and has shown more consistency, yet has never been shown such reverence.

Two, England fans overthink things they would never have done at club level. Eg. Picking a player for set piece taking ability or penalties. Other national teams don't think like this. They simply want their best players in the team. Another example is the idea of pace in behind. England fans and the media tend to use tropes to actually ruin the quality of their side, then blame it on the players not being passionate enough when it goes wrong. It's already happened. England didn't draw with Scotland because they were lax, they drew because they struggled with building up due to passing weaknesses in midfield and creating chances due to not have proven creative quality higher up the pitch. Yet they had Bellingham who can pass in midfield and Grealish/Sancho who consistently create 2 to 3 chances a game for their clubs.