Are English players overrated or is it Southgate ?

If Sancho was German, Portuguese or Spanish he would be starting every game

It’s the manager
 
We've had similar arguments for about 20 years
 
El Zoido said:
It’s the team selection. The players are fine, not the best team in the world but definitely capable of much more than this. He left his best players on the bench.
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well no, that is not correct.

England arguably has the stronger squad in world football. You lack a little in center backs and deep lying creative midfielders, but otherwise there are no excuses.
 
Southgate is proving why signing better players means feck all in terms of how far we'll go under Ole. This England team would challenge for PL and CL. The style of play, tactics, coaching all looks horse shit. The likes of Italy are making us look like mugs. Not that we didn't know.
 
Overrated. You would have thought Grealish is the second coming of Jesus the way people rate him.
 
mariachi-19 said:
well no, that is not correct.

England arguably has the stronger squad in world football. You lack a little in center backs and deep lying creative midfielders, but otherwise there are no excuses.
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France and Portugal has better players, so do a few other teams. England are mostly potential currently, their best players are still young.
 
El Zoido said:
It’s the team selection. The players are fine, not the best team in the world but definitely capable of much more than this. He left his best players on the bench.
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I’m sorry but that is the complete main reason I created the thread is that this England team on paper is one of the best in the world only behind France for me. So it’s either I’m overrating them like the media do or Southgate is awful with them. Look at Foden under Pep and tonight.
 
A better manager will get more out of these players. It’s not surprising that no English manager has ever won the premier league - scary thing is that there aren’t very good alternatives to Southgate.
 
pocco said:
Southgate is proving why signing better players means feck all in terms of how far we'll go under Ole. This England team would challenge for PL and CL. The style of play, tactics, coaching all looks horse shit. The likes of Italy are making us look like mugs. Not that we didn't know.
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What the feck does Ole have to do with this you donkey? At least Ole makes his teams score goals and are not completely inept in the final third.

Go wash your legs.
 
Mostly on Southgate. The Rice-Phillips pair looks very limited though (eerily reminiscent of Fred and McTominay, really) and I'm not sure there are much better alternatives out there.
 
mariachi-19 said:
Yeah nah

Kane
Rashford
Sterling
Grealish

Is far stronger than portugal which is pretty much Ronaldo and Fernandes. Jota is ok, but he's not better than any of those four.
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100% agree. Then there is option like Sancho and Foden on paper England are better. Portugal have a great squad but still I’d give it to England. France have a better squad but so be it there the best and I don’t think any England fan would be upset if England played great til SF or F and then lost to France.

The problem is looking at this side they can lose to anyone decent in this tournament and that’s worrying
 
It’s Southgate. He has too many pre-determined biases and favourites.

Not to mention his playing style doesn’t bring out the most quality that this squad has to truly offer.
 
The Brown Bull said:
England are always overrated by their own media and fans.
They were muck tonight.
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Kane, Grealish, Sancho, Rashford, Foden, Sterling etc in attack.

Good defence and decent midfield (better options on the bench).

Should be miles better than this. Better squad than Italy and they control games, press like animals, look dangerous in attack.

Difference is calibre of coaches, even with worse players.
 
Both, but mostly Southgate. Some of these players look lost compared to how they play with their clubs, and we don't pick our best players.

It's not new either. We were incredibly lucky in 2018 and Croatia were the first decent opponent we faced.
 
Southgate by a smidge.

Kane seems more bothered about not getting hurt before his City medical
Rashford needs a break
Sterling is well Sterling
The rest of them all want to play in the same position.
 
pocco said:
Kane, Grealish, Sancho, Rashford, Foden, Sterling etc in attack.

Good defence and decent midfield (better options on the bench).

Should be miles better than this. Better squad than Italy and they control games, press like animals, look dangerous in attack.

Difference is calibre of coaches, even with worse players.
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Exactly. Italy this tournament look like Germany in tournaments gone by. Not really great in every position but excellent as a whole. While England look like a team that have great players and woeful as a whole
 
Porque no los dos?

Both really. England have excellent players but they’re still overrated. For example, Foden is obviously quality but he is talked about as if he is the GOAT.

Southgate is a poor manager also. If a club existed that had all this talent in its squad, they wouldn’t appoint Southgate to manage them in a million years. If he is sacked, I can’t see him at someone better than a Crystal Palace.
 
France is the only team with a better starting 11 than England.

Southgate is the issue, easily.
 
Southgate is garbage. England also aren't one of the top 5 teams in terms of play and talent across the side and I suspect they'd be outplayed by France, Portugal, Italy, Germany and Spain (but the last 2 there lack a striker so they'd have a chance on the counter).

Southgate has also been leaving his 2 most talented attackers and 2 of the most creative players in world football on the bench in Grealish and Sancho.
 
Southgate.

The forwards are not getting enough creative service from the midfield to unlock England's attacking potential.

That lies at the feet of Southgate for his squad selection, as well as his starting 11.
 
UncleBob said:
France is the only team with a better starting 11 than England.

Southgate is the issue, easily.
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Nah. Portugal, Germany, France, Italy all have better starting 11's. England's just overloaded with wingers and Southgate happens to be picking the worst 2 of the 5 realistic options.
 
I think pinning everything on Southgate is an oversimplification. I would never have given him the role as he was not sufficiently qualified in my opinion. But to suggest he is the sole reason would be ignoring the plethora of England sides stacked with talent that have also failed. Not just failed to win tournaments, but failed to play at a level that would be expected given the players and in relation to their opponents.

There is something deeper than that and when it crosses over so many managers and so many sets of players, it begins to become quite hard to pull apart what the exact reasons are. It could be psychological, it could be physical, it could be that there have always been massive shortcomings in types and styles of player to create a rounded team.

I don't think you can say as a blanket statement the English players are overrated. The top ones play at top clubs, in a top league and at the top ends of Europe. The argument then has to be that they're pulled along by foreigners but this is simply farfetched and far too convoluted under even the smallest analysis. There are of course players within the current setup that are nowhere near top players so that's also a starting point for why things aren't always going to be perfect with this current group.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
2 of those players were on the bench, one is pie in the sky stuff for a crap player no-one will ever value that high, all the top teams in Europe would take Kane.
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Yeah I agree everyone would take Kane, also I’m not criticising Sancho I just watch him not get into the team(on the manager) and see us trying to pay 95m then the team play poor. Just remember only France have a better squad so you would expect decent stuff from England
 
Its Soutgate. Imagine not playing Sancho, Rashford and Foden in their natural positions when struggling for goals. Get DCL on the pitch and have a no 9 that stays in the box and can trouble a defender
 
Other than France there is probably no team with more individual quality, especially going forward.
I think Southgate isnt good enough.
 
I would say our early struggles are down to a number of reasons.

1. The double pivot of Rice and Phillips is overly defensive, maybe to protect a back line without Maguire. But it’s making it difficult for us to progress the ball through the midfield with any sort of tempo so we are just not creating anything.

2. Kane has not started the tournament well. He doesn’t look physically well, much like Rashford has down for large parts of the season and Sterling is struggling too so what has been our first choice attack is out of form. Which maybe begs the question, why don’t we change it up as offence is the only position in the team where we have depth.

So I wouldn’t say our players are overrated, but I would say that we don’t have the quality in depth in some positions. Southgate has to manage this and maybe he has got it wrong so far.
 
Scotland are a solid team, and they negate most of england's strengths (pace/physicality/set pieces) and had zero interest in testing the english high press/counterpress

But yeah, given the talent you'd expect more from Southgate. England don't really move the ball, whoever has it just carries it forward and then tries something...that's also where the lack of a midfield metronome shows, but still, it's on the manager to at least instill some principles collective attacking play...

PS: France are the same, but they get by because Mbappé and Pogba. And better coaching. Southgate still hasn't figured out how to use his fecking best player ffs
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
it’s frightening how alike United the tactics are.
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Not really, United have actually been devastatingly good at times last season, fast and explosive, tons of creativity, and score a lot of goals. No top level DMF so is forced to play two in that role.

Ole always picks his best team and doesn’t leave Bruno on the bench. It’s embarrassing that United fans are comparing the two, Southgate doesn’t even know who his best players are. He’s clueless.
 
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