Are Martial's problems to do with the level of the team or independent of them?

[Canagel]

Pointless thread. Martial has 12 goals in all comps despite missing nearly 2 months and with no midfield supply. People are getting vex at the wrong things and wrong players simply because they happen to judge players on lazy cliches like how busy they look and can't see anything past workrate and body language.

 

[Neil_Buchanan]

He is a good player who will improve more with better creative players around him. He isn't the ideal striker for our team and he can definitely be improved upon but I think we've got half a dozen more pressing issues.

 

[Dans]

He's just really not that good. We massively overrate him here. I have seen a few snippets of greatness from him over the years, but I saw a similar snippet from Jay Rodriguez last week.

 

[Bobcat]

Pointless thread. Martial has 12 goals in all comps despite missing nearly 2 months and with no midfield supply. People are getting vex at the wrong things and wrong players simply because they happen to judge players on lazy cliches like how busy they look and can't see anything past workrate and body language.

They're not lazy cliches though, they are really bloody important.

Last year everyone was getting on Lukakus case because he just strolled around, and it should be no different for Martial. Lack of service is not just down to midfielders not being able to pick him out, he has to move and make himself available because just standing there makes you incredibly easy to mark

 

[Fortitude]

And beyond that they are attackers, they rely on what happens below them. If your midfield can't reliably bring and keep the ball in the last third, your forwards are doomed. Yesterday Martial was the only attacker with an attempt at goal, one of two with an attempt in open play. The fact that there is a thread about him today is baffling, I keep telling myself that some fans don't actually realize that football is a team game and that players rely on each others.

Then you're misinterpreting because this isn't a 'slay Martial' thread, at all.

And it shows something that discussions are quickly categorized as those entering the thread wish rather than reading the OP and taking things from there instead of their own preconceived narrative.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

He's good but I don't think he should he be the striker to lead the line. He should be as important as Gabriel Jesus for City.

He's excellent when the team is organised and it hasn't been for the past few games so there's that. I also think he works well with wingers that makes runs like Rashford or Salah not James who wants the ball on his feet so the attacking system right now is not suited to his abilities

 

[OleBoiii]

The thing about Martial is that he's a bit of a luxury player. When the team is fluid and attacks with pace and purpose he's a great striker. He'd do extremely well in a Pep team, for instance. He's reasonably strong, fast, technical and a good finisher as well. His movement is also very smart.

But right now our team is just not good enough to utilize strikers like him. He's not very threatening in the air, so crossing isn't going to do much. Attacking the space is only possible against a handful of opponents, so that's rarely going to work. He's not hard-working like Rashford, so he's not gonna contribute much in this aspect of the game. And he's not really the type of striker who creates magic out of nowhere either, though to be fair only a few strikers fit that description.

I'm a bit on the fence when it comes to players like him. On one hand, it's frustrating to watch your main striker be almost 100% dependent on the rest of the team performing well. On the other hand, it perfectly illustrates a list of much bigger problems. If Martial isn't working out, then the rest of the team isn't really working out either.

 

[PieCrust]

He's just not that good, as he's demonstrated with his performances, despite his obvious natural talent.

He's not the striker to lead the line for a club like United. Maybe he'll come somewhat good at some point, I guess he's still only 24, but I just don't see him being able to live up to his potential. It was silly for Ole to go with him as the main striker for this season and not have a proven striker at the club.

 

[Okey]

Sometimes these things are quite simple. Martial is massively overrrated. He's simply not good enough to be the main striker at a big club like United. Not good enough as a 9, not good enough a left forward either. Talented player no doubt, but too much of a passenger. Just check out Aguero. Didn't score last night but even if that was the first time you ever saw him, you wouldn't be wondering if he was good enough.

 

[KekiZeki]

The thing about Martial is that he's a bit of a luxury player. When the team is fluid and attacks with pace and purpose he's a great striker. He'd do extremely well in a Pep team, for instance. He's reasonably strong, fast, technical and a good finisher as well. His movement is also very smart.

But right now our team is just not good enough to utilize strikers like him. He's not very threatening in the air, so crossing isn't going to do much. Attacking the space is only possible against a handful of opponents, so that's rarely going to work. He's not hard-working like Rashford, so he's not gonna contribute much in this aspect of the game. And he's not really the type of striker who creates magic out of nowhere either, though to be fair only a few strikers fit that description.

I'm a bit on the fence when it comes to players like him. On one hand, it's frustrating to watch your main striker be almost 100% dependent on the rest of the team performing well. On the other hand, it perfectly illustrates a list of much bigger problems. If Martial isn't working out, then the rest of the team isn't really working out either.

A lot of the team is not working out though.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Pointless thread. Martial has 12 goals in all comps despite missing nearly 2 months and with no midfield supply. People are getting vex at the wrong things and wrong players simply because they happen to judge players on lazy cliches like how busy they look and can't see anything past workrate and body language.

They're not lazy cliches. The fact of the matter is, he goes through large swathes of the game where he isn't involved at all. That's got nothing to do with his pressing, etc. Give him the ball in the box and he's normally clinical and a great finisher. But the rest of his game deserves criticism.

 

[redshaw]

Martial is much better when Rashford is there, our front three clicks into gear then

We saw Rashford on his own struggle up front early on in the season. Martial on his own struggles. We'll see what Bruno can offer as a creative foil.

 

[Mainoldo]

Sometimes these things are quite simple. Martial is massively overrrated. He's simply not good enough to be the main striker at a big club like United. Not good enough as a 9, not good enough a left forward either. Talented player no doubt, but too much of a passenger. Just check out Aguero. Didn't score last night but even if that was the first time you ever saw him, you wouldn't be wondering if he was good enough.

He also had a shed load of service. If Martial switched sides he’d look good to.

I don’t know what people are expecting he’s not a Rashford he’s not going to blast a ball from 30 yards he needs good players around him. Not Jesse Lingard ruining attacks or fullbacks who can’t provide service (No shade on Williams- he will get better).

Unless Pogba or Rashford is there with him he’s not going to look good.

 

[Fortitude]

This isn’t true at all, watch the Liverpool game as one example. He makes tonnes of runs in to space and is just never found. He pulls off the shoulde, opens space and angles his body where he wants the ball yet no one can find him.
‘Even last night where he played as though he was injured he still made good runs that weren’t found. This then leads to him coming deep and when he does this other players need to start going beyond him in to the space he has just created. None of our lot bar Rashford and occasionally Lingard do that. Hopefully it’s something Bruno will do.

You need multiple games and frequency of execution for something to be verifiable.

Martial fits all the categories in flashes, it doesn't make him any of them. If Martial's movements were as you state on a frequent basis, the identifiable problem would simply be service into him. Do you think that is the case? I'm asking as a honest question not a loaded one, just as the question of if he just needs combination players around him to come to life.

Let me ask another way: is he an enigma, or are the issues to get the best out of him obvious?

Pointless thread. Martial has 12 goals in all comps despite missing nearly 2 months and with no midfield supply. People are getting vex at the wrong things and wrong players simply because they happen to judge players on lazy cliches like how busy they look and can't see anything past workrate and body language.

I'm not 'vex' and I certainly didn't make the thread to have a cry about Martial. Your bluster is misdirected and, quite frankly, unnecessary.

 

[OleBoiii]

A lot of the team is not working out though.

That is precisely my point.

Out team is struggling, and thus Martial is struggling too. But should not a team of our stature expect to have a world class striker who can save us on rainy days? Players like Ronaldo, Messi, Agüero, and Lewandowski would make a huge difference for us, even if they wouldn't be as effective as normal. That is because these players have what it takes to create goals out of thin air. And even if these players are hard to come by, you could always play hardworking all-rounders like Rashford and Firmino.

All in all: if you want to be the main striker for United, you got to produce something even when things aren't going your way.

 

[RUCK4444]

Pointless thread. Martial has 12 goals in all comps despite missing nearly 2 months and with no midfield supply.

Disagree. His mentality and determination are poor during games more often than not.

The fact he has decent numbers just makes this all the more infuriating.

He’s got class but needs far more desire, imagine him running constantly and harassing, stretching sides like Sterling or even Rashford does. He would be incredible.

He does make some decent runs and yes our midfield has been poor but the lack of determination and the will to influence the game for 90 minutes has never been there.
I don’t forgive that trait easily.

The problem is greater though because if you have a team that has forwards with substandard influence on the game and then pair that with a Jesse Lingard or Mata behind them who mostly do not infuence the game enough either (same in some other positions as well) then what your left with is a lacklustre side that won’t consistently perform and outwork / outplay sides, especially in this league.

I want players who play to the feckin max, 100% every game.

Ask yourself this, would Martial with his inconsistency and poor level of determination make it into the Liverpool side?
If not then we shouldn’t accept it either.

 

[mitchmouse]

He's not good enough - might score the great occasional goal but spends most of his time static; how often does he make one of those clever runs a top forward does?

 

[Fiskey]

Martial's problem is that he kind of falls between two (or three) stools.

He's not deadly or quick witted enough in the box to work as a classic number 9, and he can't lead the line in the way that, say, Kane can do. But he doesn't have the work rate to be a false 9, because false 9s have to get engaged in the midfield possession & pressing battles, something he doesn't seem to want to do. Similarly, he can play on the left with good quality going forward, but you can't rely on him to cover the left back against the overlapping runs of the opposite right back. So its difficult to know how to fit him in.

In a way OP's right, what Martial excels at is pinging the ball in triangles around the edge of the box, looking for one-twos, little runs, or finding space to curl shots in with his right foot. But almost no team has the luxury of building a team with such a player in it these days. The days of strikers waiting for the midfielders to supply them with chances is long gone. As with so many positions on the pitch, attackers need to fulfil multiple roles and Martial struggles to do that.

This. As I said in another thread I think his best position would be right wing, a Jadon Sancho type or similar to what Sterling did in 2017/2018 but apparently he doesn't want to play there.

 

[JPRouve]

Then you're misinterpreting because this isn't a 'slay Martial' thread, at all.

And it shows something that discussions are quickly categorized as those entering the thread wish rather than reading the OP and taking things from there instead of their own preconceived narrative.

I did not categorize your thread as a "slay Martial" thread though. But your thread is clearly looking at a player in isolation, we have been an inconsistent team that has struggled to create chances for almost 7 years now, the common theme has been poor technical and creative level from midfield and all our attackers being "streaky", not just Martial, the same has been done for all our attackers and people always end up using the attitude/character cliché when they also complain in other threads about the poor level of the rest of team, these two things are linked.

 

[Oldyella]

Martial's problem is that he kind of falls between two (or three) stools.

He's not deadly or quick witted enough in the box to work as a classic number 9, and he can't lead the line in the way that, say, Kane can do. But he doesn't have the work rate to be a false 9, because false 9s have to get engaged in the midfield possession & pressing battles, something he doesn't seem to want to do. Similarly, he can play on the left with good quality going forward, but you can't rely on him to cover the left back against the overlapping runs of the opposite right back. So its difficult to know how to fit him in.

Agreed. He seems a good player who we just cant find a role that suits his talents while covering his weaknesses. Not sure what we do long term with him. I do think we need another striker though to either replace or compete with him.

 

[MancFanFromManc]

Such a shame Rashford got injured. Rashford and Martial have formed a superb partnership. They fit together really well and most importantly seem to really enjoy playing together. I don't see anything like as much sulking, and throwing their arms up in frustration when they're both in the team. I can see Bruno really gelling with them too. Watching that "100 passes" video of him earlier and he's a master at playing balls into space for players with pace...

 

[3KDré]

It’s never as simple as one or the other. It will be a mixture of both. Surround him with better players that find his runs like Pogba and Fernandes and he will almost definitely play better.

 

[Raven]

RVP said Martial and Rashford made intelligent runs which are never picked out by the midfield or the ball playing defenders.

If a player keeps making the runs and never receiving the ball because the team around him are inept to make the pass then would he keep making the same run? We will find when Bruno plays if it is him or the team.

I notice this every game. People here won't listen to it though.

 

[VP89]

His general pressing sucks balls. And his acceleration is often non existent. When he runs at players he tries to glide past them which sort of works when it's in your stride and versus one player.. But often he's double marked and clearly struggles and has to pass it back

 

[roonster09]

I'll spare you paragraphs more and just ask whether you think better players surrounding him would see him go up a level, or is he simply an erratic wildcard we shouldn't put a burden of responsibility on (because he can't be relied upon to deliver)? Is he an enigma that can be solved?

I think that's the case for almost all players. Problem with Martial is, he is more of a creator than scorer. So with Rashford in the side, he had sort of perfect player to link up. Someone who can occupy the space created by Martial.

Now without Rashford, he still plays the same role but we don't have anyone to occupy those spaces and be a goal threat.

So the question is, is the player not good enough to adapt to the team or is it on Ole for not tweaking the system?

IMO, Rashford needs Martial and Martial needs Rashford to get the best out of them, especially when we already have player like Pogba missing. Tbh I was frustrated watching him play vs City, wanted him to be in the box and be a goal threat in Rashford's absence.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I liked him with a diamond formation back under Mourinho. Having a partner up front helps him since when he drops deep there is someone else in the box to find.
The extra midfielders also cover for his lack of workrate at times .

 

[Decomposing In Paris]

Sometimes I feel like he lacks belief in our team and mentally checks out a bit. RVP highlighted the runs he and Rashford have been making... but it’s much easier to make a good run if you’re not the only one running. If we finish the season with Martial, Rashford, Pogba, and Fernandes on the pitch I believe we’ll see a much better Martial.

 

[bosnian_red]

Bit of both. Think he was having quite a good season when fit playing next to Rashford. His stats were good and his performance levels were good. Hes not the main guy and it doesn't work that well when he's required to be, without someone else making those decisive runs in behind, but it worked between them quite well. All would step it up a notch with a more creative midfield, which we now have.

He himself needs to find more consistency in his performances and involvement in games. Hes prone to being too quiet, especially when Rashford isnt there with him. But in general I think hes more than fine to be the striker. Full strength our starting 11 is quite good now, I'd say easily the 3rd best in the league. The issue is our lack of depth means that any injury hurts multiple players as we dont have backups to keep the same system effectively.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Sometimes I feel like he lacks belief in our team and mentally checks out a bit. RVP highlighted the runs he and Rashford have been making... but it’s much easier to make a good run if you’re not the only one running. If we finish the season with Martial, Rashford, Pogba, and Fernandes on the pitch I believe we’ll see a much better Martial.

I agree I think we will, but the problem I have with him, is sometimes you to make things happen for yourself, if things are not completely right with the team, he might as well not be there.

 

[Eleven-Eighteen]

Martial's peak is about as high as i've seen from any winger in the PL, but because of his shocking lack of consistency, his average is much lower than i thought it would be.

A lot of it is down to Pereria being our #10 this season and sucking at it. But Martial does not make the right decision at the right time in about 60-70% of the cases when approaching the edge of the box...he will always draw 3 defenders/ midfielders but not make that final incisive pass

 

[Siorac]

He's one of those who suffered the most from the non-existent footballing vision at Manchester United.

He arrived as a talented but still very raw 19-year-old and then never really improved from that. He has to shoulder some of the blame for that, certainly - he cannot be absolved of the responsibility to work on himself. But he played under three completely different managers, whose "philosophies" were worlds apart, who all expected completely different things from him - and at least two of them have no real reputation or history of successfully coaching and improving young players. No coincidence he was at his best under Van Gaal.

At this stage, I think he's just not that good. But he could have been, with more direction. Some players don't need it that much, their own will to win and obsession with the game carries them forward. I think Martial would have benefitted from stronger and more consistent guidance.

This is mostly guesswork, of course, as I'm not present at training but I don't think I'm far off the mark.

 

[Bestietom]

When he wants to he can be dynamic, but when I see him lose the ball and not fight to get it back, I would love to kick him up the backside. He does drop the head when things are going against him.

 

[Rolaholic]

I notice this every game. People here won't listen to it though.

Things are always either black/white or reactionary in here,nuance doesn't seem to exist for many

 

[edgar allan]

Martial's peak is about as high as i've seen from any winger in the PL, but because of his shocking lack of consistency, his average is much lower than i thought it would be.

A lot of it is down to Pereria being our #10 this season and sucking at it. But Martial does not make the right decision at the right time in about 60-70% of the cases when approaching the edge of the box...he will always draw 3 defenders/ midfielders but not make that final incisive pass

Maybe Pereiras struggles are down to Martial sucking??
Obviously i recognise the absurdity of both suggestions

 

[RikRuud]

Needs help, can't lead the line on his own. Bruno should work well with him and hopefully get Martial back to his clinical and composed best. He's been snatching at a lot of shots lately.

 

[poleglass red]

I think the first 18 mins or so yesterday showed the issue we have. The Man City attacking players swarmed all over us everytime we had the ball, never give us a chance. Martial in stark contrast is so lackadaisical in his approach. You can bemoan lack of service to him and that is a fair point because it's dreadful, but service or not he has to make a hell of a lot more effort on his behalf to win the ball back. The modern game is all about that high press, look at City, look at Liverpool. I honestly think we will be looking to implement that type of game going forward, certainly Fernandes can help in that regard. To press you have to as a unit, if one player doesn't do that then they can just pass through you. It must be so infuriating to our other attacking players when they close down a defender to look back and see Martial casually jogging nowhere near to the defender. It's the same way for him when he makes a run and doesn't get picked out. He is what we have right now. He's still youngish at 24 to adapt his game. We definitely need to upgrade in that area going forward though. The addition of Fernandes and Pogba to come back next month will add that much needed creativity we severely lack.

 

[Buster15]

I don't think there's been a more confusing and streaky performer at United than Martial in the last 30yrs, if not more (feel free to name others) as, usually, you get an idea and feel for a player and what he's about if requirements etc. are met. Nani for example, was notoriously fragile, but when coaxed correctly, could produce world class performances against anybody.

Martial had his best season under LVG many moons ago when he was basically an outlet allowed to run free and dribble to his heart's content. That was so long ago now, it can be struck off as an outlier beings as, over all his other seasons here, that level has not been replicated over anything but sporadic dribs and drabs before the invariable drop in form or injury.

The arguments for and against the player run rife with neither camp landing a decisive blow given Martial can be both world class and amateurish in a run of games.

He wants to be a #9, but exhibits no striker instincts to read the run of play and get into probable goalscoring positions, nor does he make off the ball movements that drag CB's one way before he dips the other; he also makes no runs for midfielders to find him on angles or to enable him to collect the ball, turn and run at a backline. Within this paragraph, a gamut of striker archetypes can be found, from the six-yard poachers to the rabid foragers to the classy, low contact, technicians to the pure dribblers - Martial fits none of the categories, not even in combination, so what is he?

An argument can be made that his ideal set-up is to be surrounded by high-level, one and two touch triangulation players as that seems to be the style that he enjoys and tries the most at; he also holds his own in the chain, as in, plays don't break down off the back off errant passes or technical failures on his part frequently.

I'll spare you paragraphs more and just ask whether you think better players surrounding him would see him go up a level, or is he simply an erratic wildcard we shouldn't put a burden of responsibility on (because he can't be relied upon to deliver)? Is he an enigma that can be solved?

Only Martial really knows what is or is not going on inside his head.
Having said that, you have to assume that United sports scientists and working with him on his psychology in order to improve his mentality.

To say that he is incredibly frustrating as a player is an understatement.

 

[Bobski]

He doesn't play with enough intensity, that has been true through all his work here. I think it might be easier to notice when on the wing though, for long periods he will just hold his position and wait for the ball to feet.

Service is an issue but if you compare him to his peers, Mane, Son, Sterling there is notably less energy.

As a striker his hold up play is poor, link up and interplay excellent but he needs to do more in securing difficult balls.

 

[El Jefe]

His biggest problem is he doesn't understand the game of football. He's extremely talented as you can see when the ball is at his feet but those who truly understand the game find creative ways to be dangerous with and without the ball. He just seems to want to play football how he wants to rather than in the best way to help the team win. Pogba has this same problem but he has far more talent and understands the game more than Martial.

He also seems to lack the hunger to be the best version of himself and that's the key difference between him and Rashford.

Of course with better players around him Martial will look better but will he ever be good enough to be our main man or leading striker? I'm not so sure anymore.

 

[Judas]

Maybe Pereiras struggles are down to Martial sucking??
Obviously i recognise the absurdity of both suggestions

I've witnessed Andreas on the ball looking for some movement and a pass and Martial just stood static in front of him so many times