Are Pep and Klopp Defensive Coaches?

[He'sRaldo]

Think about it.


Pep comes into City, the first thing he does is turn Silva and KDB into box to box midfielders and ask them to defend, meanwhile he drops Aguero because he won't defend. The most important thing he implements and perfects is his high press, a defensive mechanism. He loves control of possession. Why? Because it allows them to defend easier.


Klopp comes into Liverpool, first thing he does is buy Wijnaldum an attacking mid, and turns him into a box to box. Buys Oxlade-Chamberlain a winger, and turns him into a box to box. Lallanna an attacking mid, he turns into a box to box. Asks all of them to defend and press. The most important thing he brings to Liverpool is his Gegenpress which although also an attacking mechanism, is primarily a defensive one. In fact, he plays a non-scoring striker simply because that striker is very good with defensive ability and work rate.


It seems their biggest strengths are the defensive systems they use, and their go to move seems to be to put a lot of attacking players on the pitch and compel them to defend (granted Klopp seems to have finally shown his true nature with 3 DM's on the pitch at all times). They may play in a very attacking manner, but surely there's an argument to be had that they're actually both very defensive coaches?

 

[roonster09]

No, I don't think there is any argument to be had that they are defensive coaches. It's just that they have very good work ethic who wants their team to play as a single unit. Everyone defends and everyone attacks.

It's all about finding right balance.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

More like balanced coaches. Ole is more defensive than them.

 

[Skills]

Your interpretation is completely wrong.

 

[adexkola]

This is an excellent topic.

They are not Mourinho or Simeone. But it's ignorance to look at either of them and say, "yeah he doesn't care about defense". It still baffles me how a team that has conceded 3 more goals than Liverpool in the league can be described as "shit defensively".

Their systems minimize the exposure to the defense but it requires adept personnel across all positions to make it work.

 

[Sandikan]

How can managers of two of the most relentlessly attacking teams in recent history be seen as being in any way defensive?

 

[SilentWitness]

No but they utilise their attack/midfielders to be their best line of defence rather than their actual defence. They'd rather win the ball back in the opposition half or as soon as they possibly can after losing it than have their CBs do that much work.

I wouldn't say that makes them defensive as the onus is still on the attacking play. They do that because they know that when they have the ball the style (when they have the ball it's attacking) is capable of blowing pretty much every team away.

I'd say a defensive coach is someone that sets up their side to actively defend/stay structured and keep the ball with limited attacking threat. They(Pep and Klopp) keep the ball but utilise it.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Your interpretation is completely wrong.

Is it?

In terms of improving ability, did they improve their players attacking or defensive ability more? I'd argue the players were always attacking players, but their ability to defend and be organized is what the coaches worked on. Of course with a bit of positional play thrown in there.

 

[bosnian_red]

They build their teams to be proactive and dominate the game (proactively) with the ball, and judge how they play by creating chances. There is no just offense or defence in football.

 

[Skills]

Is it?

In terms of improving ability, did they improve their players attacking or defensive ability more? I'd argue the players were always attacking players, but their ability to defend and be organized is what the coaches worked on.

What you're forgetting is that by converting KDB and Silva into CMs, Guardiola's managed to make space for Sterling/Sane/B.Silva/Mahrez in his team to to provide another 2 attacking outputs.

KDB's just had the best season of his career in terms of attacking output. Sterling's scoring more goals than ever, so quite clearly he's improved their attack as much as as he's improved their defense. You're talking about a manager who's team are averaging 100+ PL goals for the last 3 seasons.

 

[adexkola]

No but they utilise their attack/midfielders to be their best line of defence rather than their actual defence. They'd rather win the ball back in the opposition half or as soon as they possibly can after losing it than have their CBs do that much work.

I wouldn't say that makes them defensive as the onus is still on the attacking play. They do that because they know that when they have the ball the style (when they have the ball it's attacking) is capable of blowing pretty much every team away.

I'd say a defensive coach is someone that sets up their side to actively defend/stay structured and keep the ball with limited attacking threat. They keep the ball but utilise it.

Yeah but their CBs do a lot of work. It takes a lot of discipline to maintain a high line, play the offside trap to perfection, remain available as an outlet for the pass. Plus their CBs get tested during counter attacks, free kicks, corners, Delap throw-ins... I don't think Mane/Salah do more defending than VVD and co. Likewise for Sterling/Jesus compared to Laporte and co.

There is no free lunch as a defender at that level.

 

[adexkola]

Is it?

In terms of improving ability, did they improve their players attacking or defensive ability more? I'd argue the players were always attacking players, but their ability to defend and be organized is what the coaches worked on. Of course with a bit of positional play thrown in there.

The defensive organization is more key. In attack there is more leeway for already talented players to freestyle (although they will work on positions and set plays). But I'd wager that 70% of the work goes into making sure the team is solid enough in all phases of play to allow for domination on the ball while attacking.

We've seen this in real time with both coaches. Compare Pep and Klopp's first seasons (also second for Klopp) in the PL to now.

 

[He'sRaldo]

They build their teams to be proactive and dominate the game (proactively) with the ball, and judge how they play by creating chances. There is no just offense or defence in football.

That's true. The question is which phase of play do you think they contribute most to?

Klopp and Pep's pressing have been famous all over the world even more than their positional play. And a press is a primarily defensive mechanism.

 

[cyberman]

Klopps Liverpool do shut down after they score and dont take risks going forward.
Pep is more defensive than you think. He instructs his team to over recycle the ball when he wants to shut a game down.

 

[Adisa]

They are defensive as all top coaches are. What I mean, is their biggest concern, is how their team functions without the ball.
What separates them from guys like Mourinho is how they choose to defend. Mourinho chooses a low block defensive game where the majority of the defensive action is taking as the other team approaches the final third because he is worried about space behind his defenders. Pep and Guarduola are the opposite. Both adopt a mid/high block defensive strategy because they feel their teams can condense the space higher up the pitch and maintain shape while doing it.
I think football has evolved a bit from Mourinho's way of looking at defending because of the mentality of players. A modern player will be more willing to run and close down space in the opponents half then do it in his own half. That's why players are happier playing under Klopp than Mourinho.

 

[adexkola]

They are defensive as all top coaches are. What I mean, is their biggest concern, is how their team functions without the ball.
What separates them from guys like Mourinho is how they choose to defend. Mourinho chooses a low block defensive game where the majority of the defensive action is taking as the other team approaches the final third because he is worried about space behind his defenders. Pep and Guarduola are the opposite. Both adopt a mid/high block defensive strategy because they feel their teams can consider the space higher up the pitch and maintain shape while doing it.
I think football has evolved a bit from Mourinho's way of looking at defending becaise of the mentality of players. A modern player will be more willing to run and close down space in the opponents half then do it in his own half. That's why players are happier playing under Klopp than Mourinho.

Xavi said in an interview once that it takes a special manager (like Simeone) to get the likes of Koke and Saul to commit to his sort of system, season in and season out.

 

[He'sRaldo]

The defensive organization is more key. In attack there is more leeway for already talented players to freestyle (although they will work on positions and set plays). But I'd wager that 70% of the work goes into making sure the team is solid enough in all phases of play to allow for domination on the ball while attacking.

We've seen this in real time with both coaches. Compare Pep and Klopp's first seasons (also second for Klopp) in the PL to now.

Yeah I agree. I remember Neville saying something like it's easier to train and convice attacking players to defend, than to train defensive players to attack.

I think that's what those two have done, is simply convince their attacking players to defend with conviction and organization. Their press is key to this, as KDB himself said he realized that the press is easier as they don't have to track back as much.

 

[He'sRaldo]

They are defensive as all top coaches are. What I mean, is their biggest concern, is how their team functions without the ball.
What separates them from guys like Mourinho is how they choose to defend. Mourinho chooses a low block defensive game where the majority of the defensive action is taking as the other team approaches the final third because he is worried about space behind his defenders. Pep and Guarduola are the opposite. Both adopt a mid/high block defensive strategy because they feel their teams can condense the space higher up the pitch and maintain shape while doing it.
I think football has evolved a bit from Mourinho's way of looking at defending because of the mentality of players. A modern player will be more willing to run and close down space in the opponents half then do it in his own half. That's why players are happier playing under Klopp than Mourinho.

Excellent point about Mourinho.

Jose convinced his Inter attackers to track back, while Klopp and Pep convinced their attackers to press high. Both very similar actions, but since one is a high press it is more palatable for the attackers since it allows them to dominate the game with the ball as opposed to without it.

But both are actually defensive instructions.

 

[Skills]

They are defensive as all top coaches are. What I mean, is their biggest concern, is how their team functions without the ball.
What separates them from guys like Mourinho is how they choose to defend. Mourinho chooses a low block defensive game where the majority of the defensive action is taking as the other team approaches the final third because he is worried about space behind his defenders. Pep and Guarduola are the opposite. Both adopt a mid/high block defensive strategy because they feel their teams can condense the space higher up the pitch and maintain shape while doing it.
I think football has evolved a bit from Mourinho's way of looking at defending becaise of the mentality of players. A modern player will be more willing to run and close down space in the opponents half then do it in his own half. That's why players are happier playing under Klopp than Mourinho.

I don't think that's true. Guardiola's team have the ball up to 70% of the time. Guardiola knows he needs to thrash 75% of the teams he plays to win the the league - I reckon his focus is more heavy on helping his team achieve that. That's not to say he's completely naive and doesn't give a shit - the overall focus is still not that far from 50/50

 

[Varun]

Think about it.


Pep comes into City, the first thing he does is turn Silva and KDB into box to box midfielders and ask them to defend, meanwhile he drops Aguero because he won't defend. The most important thing he implements and perfects is his high press, a defensive mechanism. He loves control of possession. Why? Because it allows them to defend easier.


Klopp comes into Liverpool, first thing he does is buy Wijnaldum an attacking mid, and turns him into a box to box. Buys Oxlade-Chamberlain a winger, and turns him into a box to box. Lallanna an attacking mid, he turns into a box to box. Asks all of them to defend and press. The most important thing he brings to Liverpool is his Gegenpress which although also an attacking mechanism, is primarily a defensive one. In fact, he plays a non-scoring striker simply because that striker is very good with defensive ability and work rate.


It seems their biggest strengths are the defensive systems they use, and their go to move seems to be to put a lot of attacking players on the pitch and compel them to defend (granted Klopp seems to have finally shown his true nature with 3 DM's on the pitch at all times). They may play in a very attacking manner, but surely there's an argument to be had that they're actually both very defensive coaches?

Firstly, Klopp's current Pool side are not the vibrant high pressing attacking unit that he had earlier. He's adapted to win the league. Pep's the one who's completely devoted to attacking football.

Re the thread, no, they aren't defensive coaches at all. What you say about their system is actually an intent to start winning the ball right when you lose it and about using the entire system to defend instead of just relying on your CBs. They defend from the front which is very different to what defensive coached like Mourinho do.

 

[SilentWitness]

Yeah but their CBs do a lot of work. It takes a lot of discipline to maintain a high line, play the offside trap to perfection, remain available as an outlet for the pass. Plus their CBs get tested during counter attacks, free kicks, corners, Delap throw-ins... I don't think Mane/Salah do more defending than VVD and co. Likewise for Sterling/Jesus compared to Laporte and co.

There is no free lunch as a defender at that level.

Yeah, of course, what I meant by it was trying to alleviate the amount of work/pressure that they would have to do.

 

[L1nk]

I wouldn't say they are defensive coaches, no. However, I wonder if it's just a coincidence that in both of their playing careers, they were defensive players. Does this give them an advantage in reading the game from a more defensive perspective and adapting that to their management styles

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

If they are defensive what is Ole? Ultra defence? And what on earth is Mourinho? Super duper defence?

 

[Adisa]

I don't think that's true. Guardiola's team have the ball up to 70% of the time. Guardiola knows he needs to thrash 75% of the teams he plays to win the the league - I reckon his focus is more heavy on helping his team achieve that. That's not to say he's completely naive and doesn't give a shit - the overall focus is still not that far from 50/50

Guardiola's attacking game depends on recycling the ball until the other team are drawn out of position. By virtue of that, his teams will usually have an above possession. For him possession is just a means to an end, not that he's actually after it.
Just look at some of their games where they spanked Liverpool, Arsenal etc. Guardiola is perfectly willing to concede possession when the other team pushes defenders midfielders forward.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Firstly, Klopp's current Pool side are not the vibrant high pressing attacking unit that he had earlier. He's adapted to win the league. Pep's the one who's completely devoted to attacking football.

Re the thread, no, they aren't defensive coaches at all. What you say about their system is actually an intent to start winning the ball right when you lose it and about using the entire system to defend instead of just relying on your CBs. They defend from the front which is very different to what defensive coached like Mourinho do.

That's true. But doesn't that sound like a defensive system to you? Something which for sure they work on and perfect.

Sure it's a very positive maneuver, but it still is a defensive mechanism. Something which both coaches are most famous for.

 

[He'sRaldo]

What you're forgetting is that by converting KDB and Silva into CMs, Guardiola's managed to make space for Sterling/Sane/B.Silva/Mahrez in his team to to provide another 2 attacking outputs.

KDB's just had the best season of his career in terms of attacking output. Sterling's scoring more goals than ever, so quite clearly he's improved their attack as much as as he's improved their defense. You're talking about a manager who's team are averaging 100+ PL goals for the last 3 seasons.

For sure Pep is a good attacking coach.

With that said, I think a key reason they are able to score so many is that they can put so many attackers on the pitch and still be solid. Usually Kdb and Silva wouldn't be expected to play in midfield together, but Pep made it work due to his defensive system which mitigates attacks before they start. That system also gives them a platform to attack relentlessly and blow away most opposition in the league.

They may score a lot of goals, but without Pep's defensive system it wouldn't be possible.

 

[Skills]

That's true. But doesn't that sound like a defensive system to you? Something which for sure they work on and perfect.

Sure it's a very positive maneuver, but it still is a defensive mechanism. Something which both coaches are most famous for.

So what do you want them to do when they don't have the ball?

Ask the players to sit down on the pitch, relax and chill until they get the ball back at a goal kick or a kick off?

 

[He'sRaldo]

So what do you want them to do when they don't have the ball?

Ask the players to sit down on the pitch, relax and chill until they get the ball back at a goal kick or a kick off?

Take ourselves for instance. We don't win the ball back as efficiently, so we can't sustain attacks as well. That means whoever is coaching us isn't as adept at coaching defence as those two.

So in terms of actual ability to implement their system, their ability to implement a defensive system is top notch. That's why I think they are more defensive than attacking.

 

[GhastlyHun]

They both understand that defense wins titles and that defending has to be a team effort to be effective, but they are not focused on defending for its own sake.

 

[adexkola]

Yeah, of course, what I meant by it was trying to alleviate the amount of work/pressure that they would have to do.

Ah fair enough, I agree

 

[Skills]

We for instance don't win the ball back as efficiently, so we can't sustain attacks as well.

So in terms of actual ability to implement their system, their ability to implement a defensive system is top notch. That's why I think they are more defensive than attacking.

But they also attack a lot better than us too. Our GA is a lot closer to them than our GF. City have scored 36 more goals than us this season. The the only team in the league we've scored 36 more goals than is Norwich.

 

[Klopper76]

I don’t think defensive is the right word. Maybe protective would be a better description? Our midfield is there to provide protection to our CB’s and to cover the full backs when they go forward. This isn’t defensive, it’s about protecting the team against counter attacks and ball recovery.

Guardiola is the same when it comes to retaining possession. He sets his team up to squeeze the opposition and prevent counter attacks.

I don’t think Klopp has always played this way though. Watch us during 16/17 & 17/18 and you’d see little in terms of protecting the defence (when it needed it most). We were set up to attack.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

They both realize a key part of modern football today: If you can outwork the opposition while pressing cohesively and effectively you can blow lesser teams away that don’t have the quality to pass through the lines.

People want to talk about Barcelona in 2011 as the greatest team of all time with the tiki-taka style they had, but it’s really understated that they were so dominant in every game because they could pass circles around you while also pressing like demons if one of them ever lost the ball. These huge presses can also lead to easy attacking opportunities like we saw yesterday, as well as against us in the Soton game or how Liverpool has done effectively for a few years under Klopp. The only downsides you get to this tactic currently is that your players will at some point wear down over a season, and another team could string 2 or 3 quality passes around the press and be through on goal. The latter point is negated currently by Pep and Klopp’s infamous instructions to tactically foul players before they can break into the final 3rd.

Until that last part is remedied by referee’s cracking down on the Fernandinho’s of the game, the pressing will continue to be the most effective way to organize a team and get attackers into quick countering opportunities when after winning the ball back that a big team might not get agaisnt smaller sides normally.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I don’t think defensive is the right word. Maybe protective would be a better description? Our midfield is there to provide protection to our CB’s and to cover the full backs when they go forward. This isn’t defensive, it’s about protecting the team against counter attacks and ball recovery.

Guardiola is the same when it comes to retaining possession. He sets his team up to squeeze the opposition and prevent counter attacks.

I don’t think Klopp has always played this way though. Watch us during 16/17 & 17/18 and you’d see little in terms of protecting the defence (when it needed it most). We were set up to attack.

That makes sense.

Brendan Rodgers at Liverpool is what I'd call an attacking coach, he setup his team to attack moreso than dominate the game. Pep and Klopp do the latter, and as a result get a lot of goals due to sheer dominance. But I don't think either are 'attacking' in that pure sense like Rodgers is.

 

[He'sRaldo]

They both realize a key part of modern football today: If you can outwork the opposition while pressing cohesively and effectively you can blow lesser teams away that don’t have the quality to pass through the lines.

I love the way you put this, it makes sense. If you have quality all over the pitch then as long as you are able to be solid defensively, you will most likely win.

I think both coaches have realized that and have gone with the formula of making quality players defend properly and proactively in order to control the game. That's not to say that they have no influence in possession, but a lot of the times it's the quality of their players that shines through and they know this.

So as long as their defensive systems dominate the game and get their quality players the ball often, they're likely to win the match. On the back of organization and quality.

 

[Carolina Red]

I can’t wait to get to read the “What I learned from Tony Pulis” chapter of Pep’s memoirs one day...

 

[He'sRaldo]

I can’t wait to get to read the “What I learned from Tony Pulis” chapter of Pep’s memoirs one day...

There's a reason Klopp's been harping on about his new throw-in coach...

 

[Ish]

This is an excellent topic.

They are not Mourinho or Simeone. But it's ignorance to look at either of them and say, "yeah he doesn't care about defense". It still baffles me how a team that has conceded 3 more goals than Liverpool in the league can be described as "shit defensively".

Their systems minimize the exposure to the defense but it requires adept personnel across all positions to make it work.

This. The reason Pep drops attackers to “mids” or somewhat deeper positions is because not only of their work ethic but he also prefers 11 footballers on the pitch - I.e. for his philosophy to work, he needs technical players who are comfortable in possession - that even extends to the goalkeeper. The best form of defence is staving the opposition of the ball &/or regaining it back from the oppositions as fast as possible (pressing).

It’s not a defensive system IMO. It’s just an all-encompassing footballing philosophy.