Are Spain still elite on the international stage?

[Logit]

No, for the quality of players they have they are still an elite team but they no longer have that aura of invincibility they had during 2008-2010.

Although the way they persist with trying to orchestrate matches, in spite of the opposition, suggest has they haven't really come to terms with this yet.

 

[vangagal]

I think they've missed two players the most:

Xavi
Villa

Both for different reasons. Thiago, Fabregas and Koke have not been able to recreate the incisive passes Xavi used to play to break down defenses sitting back, Koke today wasn't great and wasn't able to play balls behind the defense. Villa was a great striker under Spain's system from 08-12. Costa might have the goalscoring ability Villa had but doesn't nearly have the technical abilities Villa had. With Villa, they were able to rely on him to not only help in the build up of attacks but also finish them.

Now they are losing the generation of Ramos, Pique, Iniesta, Busquests. As always, football works in cycles and as one amazing generation goes it's very difficult to bring in another with the same abilities.

Now is the time of Belgium and France, they were younger in 2014 when Germany won but now their players have matured and are their peak. In the next tournament maybe we'l see them struggle with the same set of players and another national team display their amazing talents.

This. You can only play this type of game and can be only effective if had Xavi on it otherwise play another gameplan. Barca need to play differently to got their 2nd treble because Xavi got old, Spain insist to play with same gameplan with entire squad dont know how to do it effectively. Dont help their coach was fired right before the start.

 

[adexkola]

They're going through the low part of the cycle.

Emphasizes how important Xavi was as well; he was a master at retaining the ball but also moving it forward. Fabregas at his best was more direct that gave Spain a cutting edge at times.

The possession isn't the problem. It will be said that Spain need to be "more direct" or "pump long balls into the box". I don't think that is the conclusion to draw from this exit.

 

[kouroux]

This. You can only play this type of game and can be only effective if had Xavi on it otherwise play another gameplan. Barca need to play differently to got their 2nd treble because Xavi got old, Spain insist to play with same gameplan with entire squad dont know how to do it effectively. Dont help their coach was fired right before the start.

Good point. If passing to death doesn't work, you need to change it up a little but Spain just kept playing the same over and over again. It's not a surprise they're out, they've struggled in all of their 4 games

 

[Classical Mechanic]

ffs I was responding to someone who said they had been "shite in the last 3 tournaments" either way you cut it they won the lot

In terms of where they are now then we would need to see who would we compare them to? No one is dominating to be able to say "yep these are definitely the elite". The World champions did not even make it out of the group so are they not elite now? Argentina made it to the final and they only made it one more round the Germany.

First, we need to define elite. I don't think there is really an answer since it's in flux. Is it Brazil and Belgium, One not having won it for a long time and the other having never gone anywhere near a final, this despite them being ranked 2nd and 3rd respectively?

What are we going to use as a benchmark? Reaching the semi-finals on a regular basis? The problem is the length of time between each competition has a massive effect in terms of players retiring, form, change of coaches.

You would give Germany a pass because it could be considered an aberration. They well may win the 2020 Euros.

Spain have been poor at the past three tournaments only beating Australia, Czech Republic, Turkey and Iran. Going out of the group stage once and falling at the second round the next two times.

 

[Peyroteo]

In 2010 round of 16 they scored an offside goal and went through 1-0. Today they had a penalty denied that could have easily been called.

Those 2 ref decisions change and they could have easily won in 2018 and lost in 2010.

They were better then but my point is that looking at the results only isn't a good way to judge things. Their results in the past 3 tournaments isn't indicative of how good they are, they're still an elite team but simply not as good as they used to be.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

World Cup 2014, Euros 2016, World Cup 2018. Which of those did they win? Have you must awoke from a coma?

Being knocked out in the quarters in their last 3 tournaments would suggest they most certainly aren't an elite team. The likes of Germany and Brazil are.

World Cup 2014, Euros 2016, World Cup 2018. Which of those did they win? Have you must awoke from a coma?

Being knocked out in the quarters in their last 3 tournaments would suggest they most certainly aren't an elite team. The likes of Germany and Brazil are.

I see what your saying now.

I was talking about the last 3 tournaments respectively.

1)Spain -2008
2)Spain- 2012
3)Portugal- 2016

1) Italy - 2006
2) Spain- 2010
3) Germany 2014

I was not including this tournament either because in my head it's not over and was thinking of the last 3 before this lol. The way my brain works(or not in this case).

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yes they're still an elite team. A top class team can go through a lull. And in Spain's case a drop off was expected after 4 absurdly successful years and hence they've now gotten 4 disappointing years of below par results.

 

[Aboutreika18]

Like @B20 said earlier, they look a lot like the Spain side of the 90's and early 00's that had some great players but as a team flattered to deceive.

Without Costa's hustle up front, they could well have gone out at the group stages.

 

[SCP]

You would give Germany a pass because it could be considered an aberration. They well may win the 2020 Euros.

Spain have been poor at the past three tournaments only beating Australia, Czech Republic, Turkey and Iran. Going out of the group stage once and falling at the second round the next two times.

Outside Germany or Brazil who can be labeled as real elite? If you look at FIFA overall records rankings by points Italy is in third place, they failed to qualify.

On 4th Argentina, eliminated yesterday, 5th is a close dispute between France, Spain, England, who haven't always been consistent.

The only measure to call elite to a team is the individual quality of players.

 

[K2K]

Italy got knocked out of the group stages at the WC at both 2010 and 2014 but didnt even qualify for this one.

But made the Euros final in 2012. France is another example of up and down perfomances.

Other than Germany who are usually consistent, none of the elite are always at the top.

So yes, Spain are right up there. Especially with the talent they have.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

You would give Germany a pass because it could be considered an aberration. They well may win the 2020 Euros.

Spain have been poor at the past three tournaments only beating Australia, Czech Republic, Turkey and Iran. Going out of the group stage once and falling at the second round the next two times.

yep. But I will ask the question again. How do we think we should quantify/qualify who the elite are. Perhaps 1)Winners, 2)finalist, 3) semi-finals with a point system depending on where they reach would need to consider the Euros and Copa America differently though because obviously, teams don't face each other in these localised comps.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Who the feck is elite then?

Germany the current World champions didn't even make it out of the group.

You say it like there has to be an elite team. There isn't at this moment in time.

 

[Charles Miller]

Of course they are. It has more to do with the World Cup being in the end of the season. Player coming from big clubs playing to win all leagues and cups under a huge pressure are destroyed at the end of the season. It was not a problem in the past but its these days. Fifa need to change the WC to the middle of the season or things are going to get even worse.

 

[Bojan11]

Of course they are. It has more to do with the World Cup being in the end of the season. Player coming from big clubs playing to win all leagues and cups under a huge pressure are destroyed at the end of the season. It was not a problem in the past but its these days. Fifa need to change the WC to the middle of the season or things are going to get even worse.

Wtf are you going on about?

Most the big nations win these world cups or Euros.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Julen Lopetegui was in charge in the space between this world cup and last tournament, How many people commenting in here have actually watched Spain the last 2 years? If you had watched them you would know they were one of the best teams going into this world cup and had ironed out a lot of their issues. Perez/Madrid intervened and out went their chances of any glory.

 

[ivaldo]

I see what your saying now.

I was talking about the last 3 tournaments respectively.

1)Spain -2008
2)Spain- 2012
3)Portugal- 2016

1) Italy - 2006
2) Spain- 2010
3) Germany 2014

I was not including this tournament either because in my head it's not over and was thinking of the last 3 before this lol. The way my brain works(or not in this case).

Ah I see.

Will be interesting to see how they perform in the Euros. Iniesta more than likely won't be there, and Silva, Ramos, Pique, Busquets, Costa, Aspas, and Azpilicueta will all be in their 30s. They need some fresh blood and fresh ideas.

 

[BBRBB]

Yes but they need to reinvent themselves and play more pragmatic football, closer to what Madrid clubs do than Pepball, as even Barca are going away from tiki taka.

Short term they need more penetrative edge upfront to match the best sides. Medium term they will have to handle life in defense without Piqué/Ramos.

Spanish academies have to develop other profiles than silky passers. They could really use more pace, better dribbling and movement off the ball.

 

[vangagal]

Yes but they need to reinvent themselves and play more pragmatic football, closer to what Madrid clubs do than Pepball, as even Barca are going away from tiki taka.

Short term they need more penetrative edge upfront to match the best sides. Medium term they will have to handle life in defense without Piqué/Ramos.

Spanish academies have to develop other profiles than silky passers. They could really use more pace, better dribbling and movement off the ball.

They have ones in Asensio, Isco, Saul, Koke yet they play tiki taka all the time.

 

[SCP]

Yes but they need to reinvent themselves and play more pragmatic football, closer to what Madrid clubs do than Pepball, as even Barca are going away from tiki taka.

Short term they need more penetrative edge upfront to match the best sides. Medium term they will have to handle life in defense without Piqué/Ramos.

Spanish academies have to develop other profiles than silky passers. They could really use more pace, better dribbling and movement off the ball.

It has nothing to do with that. So if France doesn't beat Uruguay will you say they should stop developing horse racers on the French Academies and start teaching them positional play?

Reality is they sacked their manager 2 days before the competition started, how could anyone who has been watching their last games not understand every game they were playing the team was playing worse football.

 

[carvajal]

We will return to the time of winning or be finalists in tournaments sub 19 / sub 21 and lose in the big dates, being disappointing after great expectations.
Unlike Germany, or Italy, Uruguay, or even Argentina, which seems to grow on occasions, Spain has no character or pride for some top games

 

[Charles Miller]

Wtf are you going on about?

Most the big nations win these world cups or Euros.

I'm not talking about what happened in the past. I'm talking about the nature of football in 2018 and future. The demands of football is much bigger now. Specially if you play at a top club.

Look the state of Spain, Argentina, Germany. Brazil with a lot of players playing through injury. France probably can get away with it because they have a lot of young/healthy players.

 

[Schneckerl]

People forgot that they lost their coach two days before the WC started?
I'll give them a pass for this tournament.

 

[BBRBB]

They have ones in Asensio, Isco, Saul, Koke yet they play tiki taka all the time.

Many of these players are used to play 442 with quick transitions, they should just go with that.

It has nothing to do with that. So if France doesn't beat Uruguay will you say they should stop developing horse racers on the French Academies and start teaching them positional play?

Reality is they sacked their manager 2 days before the competition started, how could anyone who has been watching their last games not understand every game they were playing the team was playing worse football.

You're right the manager sacking can't have been beneficial.

As for France we're the opposite of Spain and are sorely lacking CMs able to control a game, that's an area that could be worked on in academies and that may be our undoing in this WC.

 

[spiriticon]

It was the spine of the 2008-12 Barca team that defined the Spanish team during that period. Valdes, Puyol, Pique, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Villa. Now that spine's gone, Spain are pretty much half the team they were.

They have to face the reality that their tiki taka isn't penetrative enough without the close understanding and movement of the old Barca guys.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

yep. But I will ask the question again. How do we think we should quantify/qualify who the elite are. Perhaps 1)Winners, 2)finalist, 3) semi-finals with a point system depending on where they reach would need to consider the Euros and Copa America differently though because obviously, teams don't face each other in these localised comps.

I’d say getting to the quarter final and beyond stage of tournaments 2+ tournaments in a row. Of course specific context would have to be considered.

I think you could still consider Germany elite given that 4 years ago the were world champs and they got to the semi finals of the Euros 2 years ago.

 

[rcoobc]

Is there a boom busy cycle diagram for England?

Peak is obviously the moment we get out of the group stage in 2nd place. Every, damn, time. (Ish)

 

[Moonred]

They are back to how they before they were magnificent between 08-12.

 

[AshRK]

They have not evolved. Xavi and peak iniesta made a huge difference but now they use the same boring philosophy with less quality.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

You say it like there has to be an elite team. There isn't at this moment in time.

well, thas my point... Who do we compare against or how should we quantify it. I have discussed with @Classical Mechanic about some possibilities

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Ah I see.

Will be interesting to see how they perform in the Euros. Iniesta more than likely won't be there, and Silva, Ramos, Pique, Busquets, Costa, Aspas, and Azpilicueta will all be in their 30s. They need some fresh blood and fresh ideas.

yep, in regards to Iniesta, he still looks like one of the fittest and best players out there which is amazing. Perhaps when a bit more longevity when he goes to the less challenging leagues but will he be as sharp? His game was never really about pace but still, he was no slouch so one has to wonder if he will just deteriorate quickly.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

I’d say getting to the quarter final and beyond stage of tournaments 2+ tournaments in a row. Of course specific context would have to be considered.

I think you could still consider Germany elite given that 4 years ago the were world champs and they got to the semi finals of the Euros 2 years ago.

yes, that seems fair. That would mean a 2 tournament sliding window which usually means that there won't be too much player turnover at the top ranking countries anyway.

 

[SCP]

You're right the manager sacking can't have been beneficial.

As for France we're the opposite of Spain and are sorely lacking CMs able to control a game, that's an area that could be worked on in academies and that may be our undoing in this WC.

Believe me I would love to have the "horse racers" France has, just saying everytime a team wins or loses there is a natural tendency to say they should change everything.

Reality is they have a football identity, main problem today was the lack of speed and dynamic, they did this on the qualifiers even if they aren't labeled as pacey players.

Even on their first game against Portugal they played good football, the problems came with Iran and Morocco, today was just the continuation.

 

[roonster09]

Believe me I would love to have the "horse racers" France has, just saying everytime a team wins or loses there is a natural tendency to say they should change everything.

Reality is they have a football identity, main problem today was the lack of speed and dynamic, they did this on the qualifiers even if they aren't labeled as pacey players.

Even on their first game against Portugal they played good football, the problems came with Iran and Morocco, today was just the continuation.

Yeah, against Portugal they moved the ball so well and quickly, apart from that game they didn't do it at all. Today was even worse. They had all the players camped outside the box just passing sideways. This wasn't the Spain we saw in the last few years, this was like Van Gaal's ManUtd team.

 

[SCP]

Yeah, against Portugal they moved the ball so well and quickly, apart from that game they didn't do it at all. Today was even worse. They had all the players camped outside the box just passing sideways. This wasn't the Spain we saw in the last few years, this was like Van Gaal's ManUtd team.

I can't understand why the new President of the Spanish Federation didn't closed his eyes to the Lopetegui situation. Maybe they could have been eliminated today but I doubt they would play the same today.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

well, thas my point... Who do we compare against or how should we quantify it. I have discussed with @Classical Mechanic about some possibilities

Fair enough.

 

[Florida Man]

Yeah, against Portugal they moved the ball so well and quickly, apart from that game they didn't do it at all. Today was even worse. They had all the players camped outside the box just passing sideways. This wasn't the Spain we saw in the last few years, this was like Van Gaal's ManUtd team.

A slightly better version, but yes, very Van Gaal-esque.

 

[Big Chomp]

They need to go more direct bring in younger Lacey players like Williams,mina,munuain.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Fair enough.

Maybe if I can be bothered one day I will gather the data and present it in a format that is straightforward to interpret. Base it on a simple points system where the winners get the highest allocation of points followed by runners-up then semi-finalists, quarters etc. Maybe a 3 Tournament window depending on the latest tournament at the given time be it WC or Euros. Wonder if it would overcomplicate it to add goals for and against as a differentiator with teams tied on the same points.

 

[FootballHQ]

They still have a great defence and midfield but they have nothing upfront anymore. Having Villa and Torres in the their prime were the difference makers.

David Villa one of most underrated strikers in last 15 years I think. He put all the finishing touches to the Spanish moves and goal record for Barca pretty good aswell.