Are we actually that far away?

[bosnian_red]

We need a good summer but we are still a few years away. Of course, that's not saying it's impossible to win the champions league. We would just be massive underdogs against the best teams. We have some excellent players who don't really need upgrading (De Gea, Valencia, Bailly, Pogba, Herrera, Mkhitaryan if he gets consistent), and then some very promising younger players like Martial and Rashford (though I doubt Rashford will ever quite be good enough to be the main man up front on his own). If you look at a team like Real Madrid though, they have some of the best players in the world in every position on the pitch. Marcelo is easily the best attacking fullback around, possibly the best going forward I've ever seen, Ronaldo is one of the very best players ever, Modric is the best midfielder in the world and then he has Kroos to partner him (and a solid player in Casemiro behind them), world class center backs both in defending and on the ball, and then world class players on the bench even. We have loads of space for improvement and it'll take a while to get up to the top. For that we'd need Martial to fully realize his potential and become a world class left sided player, get a balanced team and probably bring in a new right back (because of Valencia's age), center back, left back, midfielder, striker and right winger, all to be excellent players.

What we need for the premier league is a lot less then what we need to be the best. I'd say to be "the best" or competing with Madrid and Barca/juve/bayern, we need basically:

De Gea
??? Bailly ??? ???
??? Herrera Pogba
??? ??? Older Martial​

While for the league we would need:

De Gea
Valencia Bailly Rojo ???
??? Herrera Pogba
Mkhitaryan ??? Martial​

 

[AndyJ1985]

We need a good summer but we are still a few years away. Of course, that's not saying it's impossible to win the champions league. We would just be massive underdogs against the best teams. We have some excellent players who don't really need upgrading (De Gea, Valencia, Bailly, Pogba, Herrera, Mkhitaryan if he gets consistent), and then some very promising younger players like Martial and Rashford (though I doubt Rashford will ever quite be good enough to be the main man up front on his own). If you look at a team like Real Madrid though, they have some of the best players in the world in every position on the pitch. Marcelo is easily the best attacking fullback around, possibly the best going forward I've ever seen, Ronaldo is one of the very best players ever, Modric is the best midfielder in the world and then he has Kroos to partner him (and a solid player in Casemiro behind them), world class center backs both in defending and on the ball, and then world class players on the bench even. We have loads of space for improvement and it'll take a while to get up to the top. For that we'd need Martial to fully realize his potential and become a world class left sided player, get a balanced team and probably bring in a new right back (because of Valencia's age), center back, left back, midfielder, striker and right winger, all to be excellent players.

What we need for the premier league is a lot less then what we need to be the best. I'd say to be "the best" or competing with Madrid and Barca/juve/bayern, we need basically:

De Gea
??? Bailly ??? ???
??? Herrera Pogba
??? ??? Older Martial​

While for the league we would need:

De Gea
Valencia Bailly Rojo ???
??? Herrera Pogba
Mkhitaryan ??? Martial​

That only works if Martial and Mkhitaryan up their their significantly.

 

[Lentwood]

Just watching the James Robson Q&A about our summer plans and the names mentioned that they believe are our top targets are: Keane, Perisic, Matic. If this is true then we're in for a depressing summer and a struggle to retain top 6 position, never mind catching up to Chelsea or Madrid. Even if we were to get a replacement for Zlatan I don't think we're moving forwards. I get the idea, that Mourinho needs to make the team his and shore up what we have, but I think it's a mistake that will leave us pretty far behind the pack.

Potentially we'll end up with:

Romero
Valencia Bailly Keane darmian
Matic
Herrera Pogba
Mkhitaryan (striker) Perisic
​

Which has the right structure to be more solid, but won't address our lack of goals and won't give us that creative spark we need to break down defences. With City going for broke with the top players and others around us strengthening, I can't see us catching up to anyone besides maybe Arsenal.

There isn't much wrong with the side as it is though that a ruthless, mobile CF wouldn't solve

For me, next season hinges on whether we can find the right frontman because for the vast majority of the season, i.e. the big chunk in the middle, we didn't really lack creativity we lacked a finisher

 

[AndyJ1985]

There isn't much wrong with the side as it is though that a ruthless, mobile CF wouldn't solve

For me, next season hinges on whether we can find the right frontman because for the vast majority of the season, i.e. the big chunk in the middle, we didn't really lack creativity we lacked a finisher

So you think a "ruthless mobile CF" would score ~60 goals a season? Because that's what we'd need to make up for the lack of goals elsewhere.

Zlatan scored 28 and we were still ridiculously low on goals.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

De Gea​

Valencia Bailly Smalling Darmian

Pogba Herrera New CM
New AM New Striker Rashford
​

That team should be good enough to at least compete for the title if we get those three signings right. Alternatively Mhiki and Martial must improved considerably.

We need to improve our consistency and score more goals, our defensive play is good enough.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Unfortunately, because Real and Barcelona have Ronaldo and Messi, respectively, then a lot of teams are at a disadvantage. If you take the both out of their teams, then they'd be nowhere near the same team. Yes, they have other world class players, but none of them boast the same kind of record Ronaldo and Messi do.

Individually, we are not that good on paper, but I honestly don't think we're that far away. I just think Ronaldo sets them apart. Give us Ronaldo, and to me, we'd be challenging for the CL, in my opinion.

 

[prtk0811]

Their attack will always be stronger with Ronaldo till he is world class, but with new signings we will match up in defense and midfeild.

 

[fallengt]

Yes. Half of our players in europa Final could easily be squad players in italian, spanish league. 80% of them wouldn't make it to the bench of Real Madrid, Juventus.

I pull numbers our of my ass but it isn't far from the truth.

 

[Hamadovich86]

You cant compare a team that finished 5th and 6th in the Premier League with a team that has won the Champions League two years in a row. We are a ways off from them but it doesnt mean we cant beat them in August. Its just that overall they are superior in every position except for De Gea (which is why would shouldnt sell to them even if he goes on a free in 2019 or 2020).

 

[alanjohnson]

It's not only about the gulf of difference in quality.
Their team is full of winners..their team mentality is about winning. i'm not talking about winning titles.
When they lose a game, it is a disaster for them.
A big part of this comes from what their fans expect, their rivalry with Barcelona means they don't tolerate dropping points.

At the very least next season this mentality has to be instilled in the team. They can't just talk about 'challenging' for the title, they have to have the mentality of putting everything into winning each game.

 

[bosnian_red]

That only works if Martial and Mkhitaryan up their their significantly.

Well yeah, that's what I wrote. Mkhitaryan needs to show the form he showed around november/december and maybe january consistently throughout the season, and Martial needs to fulfill his potential that he showed in his first season. I'm hopeful it will happen, and they'll both surely improve on this season, too talented not to. But a striker, left back, center back and a midfielder is a must no matter what, as we don't have anyone we can even hope for to be good enough to take over there.

 

[Oneunited26]

Reality is? we got to stop keeping players like lingard and players like fellaini, while PPL seem happy we give carrick a new contract, why are we not going out of the way to get a new DM? IF we end up not getting one because we extended carrick's contract, its reliving the mistakes we have made for years, jose needs replacements for both fellaini and carrick if we looking to strengthen our cause, so a DM and CM would be a help. Who united are being linked with out wide, is not going to send the shivers down other teams spines. Mourinho needs to start evolving in terms of the style of play, you look at how Madrid play the game, they never see anyone to be feared because they have the weapons, they play to kill and they play a tactically powerful game that's aggressive but exciting to watch. When Juventus were on top, did Real panic? no, they rode out the storm got control again, and blitzed juve in the end. So Mourinho needs to start getting his team not only playing to kill, but start putting the fear of god in opponents when united were so damn pathetic they could not beat the basic of sides at OT. Real eat these teams for breakfast.

Too long probably since 2009 have we played very immobile forwards slash wingers, or very mediocre players, or players just not realizing their potential, like young, memphis, lingard, martial, mata, zlatan, berbatov, rooney, players movement or just potential and not living up to it, or just mediocre players that do just enough. Rashford has been the odd one of that player who can run at teams, and can be unplayable in games, martial was showing signs of promise but he's been more miss than hit, valencia for a few years showed that drive in acceleration to rip players apart, ashley cole a prime example and was our player of the year. Real since 2009, have had ronaldo, benzema, di maria, bale, hell they sold ozil PPL were going mad how they can sell him, they replaced him with bale and won the CL, they went with pure players with fluency, pace and able to stretch the game at will and play to kill, and Madrid don't mess about. They have been up against one exceptional Barcelona side, and they have won some trophy's we have only dreamed of winning the past few years, and our rivals have been piss poor yet we have not gone out there and done it right which sums us up. So our club must look in the mirror in recruitment and start looking like an effective attacking unit. and stop playing passengers if we want to improve.

The amount of games united have played you would hope gets the team ready for the season ahead, but recruitment, how we play the game, and moving players on who have been god awful would be a help. If Jose cannot see the problem with some of the players who need to be moved on, we are not going to compete for the title. So a couple of CB's to replace a couple, a DM, a CM, a winger and a striker is needed badly, if we lose DDG, then a GK is needed

 

[3KDré]

Our team can't even currently do simple things consistently like overlapping the winger or make consistently good runs off the ball. We don't even have a settled XI what makes you think we're not far away?

 

[Lentwood]

So you think a "ruthless mobile CF" would score ~60 goals a season? Because that's what we'd need to make up for the lack of goals elsewhere.

Zlatan scored 28 and we were still ridiculously low on goals.

No but I do think that a proper mobile centre forward would have got 25+ in the PL for us last year. That is 10 more goals which doesn't sound much but when you consider how many games we couldn't break down the opposition at OT like Burnley, Hull and WBA we would likely have gone on to win those 2/3-0 if we had got the first goal

Plus a proper CF would open space up for the plethora of inside forwards and #10s we have accumulated

 

[Noc-Z]

We are miles away from where we want to be. We should be winning the league and challenging for the champions league. Most of this squad are not fit for that.


Valencia isn't even a RB but he is doing the job and doing it well. Bailly looks good. Apart from that no defender is top class. We need another CB we need a LB.
We have no solid DM.
We have no wingers. We play players on the wings who don't belong there because we have none and they contribute little.
We have no reliable striker. Rashford is not good enough to lead the line yet. And Ibras contract should not be renewed.

So what do we have that's good enough?
De Gea (may leave)
Valencia (converted winger doing OK)
Bailly
Pogba (lets see if he can push on next season)
Maybe Mata as a 10 at a push

That's about it. Some of the others are just about good enough as squad players.

 

[manutddjw]

I don't think we're far away simply because of Mourinho. But it's going to be a double edged sword. He's going to need "his" players and we're not going to be fun to watch, but we'll be successful.

 

[An Irish Red]

We're so far off them in attacking talent that their fullbacks pose more of a threat than any of our attacking midfielders.

I mean seriously, Lingard, Rashford and Fellaini are in our front six like. Our attack is a lot closer to the level of Everton than it is to Real.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

We have some excellent pieces, DDG, Pogba, Bailly, Mhiki and if Martial recovers with his mare of a season he's up there. But we dont have the "Elite" glue that solidifies the team,your Modric/Veratti in midfield, your elite calibre striker like a lewandiwski/benzema/abameyang perhaps and then glaring holes at fullback dont help.

We do have a good base of stopgap players though, Hererra is not top class but he fills a role nicely, or cbs ebb and flow into patches of form you would consider good enough for a top club albeit briefly until their next injury. and attackers like mata who, while isnt a shiny accessory, is a perfectly viable option at any club and has been one of our best players for a few seasons now.

 

[Lawman]

We are miles away from where we want to be. We should be winning the league and challenging for the champions league. Most of this squad are not fit for that.


Valencia isn't even a RB but he is doing the job and doing it well. Bailly looks good. Apart from that no defender is top class. We need another CB we need a LB.
We have no solid DM.
We have no wingers. We play players on the wings who don't belong there because we have none and they contribute little.
We have no reliable striker. Rashford is not good enough to lead the line yet. And Ibras contract should not be renewed.

So what do we have that's good enough?
De Gea (may leave)
Valencia (converted winger doing OK)
Bailly
Pogba (lets see if he can push on next season)
Maybe Mata as a 10 at a push

That's about it. Some of the others are just about good enough as squad players.

He's been sensational as a right back up there with any right back in the world right now. That's better than ok.

 

[idmanager]

How far away are we from the rest should be based on two factors.

1. Are our players of similar capability
2. Do we actually have a system in place around which we can build a squad for the next 2-3 years at least.
Most arguments get struck at point 1 whereas point 2 is much more important.

The prime example for this is Real Madrid, President Perez and the role of the manager. Madrid have had a very good squad for quite a bit of time. From the Jose Mourinho days to be fair. But the amount of success has been very limited except for the last couple of seasons. The fact that Zidane has been given the freedom to use a 4-3-3 with Casemiro is reaping them fruits. Its no news that Perez wanted a certain brand of football with as many superstars on the pitch as possible and it took him quite a while and a legend in Zidane at the manager's role to realize the importance of a system over superstars.

Do we have the squad? Of course we do. Not the perfect one but we are not miles away from a sqad point of view. A good summer like the last one and we should ideally be in contention for the title. Finishing 6th last season was a disgrace and it had a lot to do with the system and fitting the players rather than the quality, injuries and the schedule we had. Martial and Rashford are not wingers. Fellaini is not a midfielder around whom you can build great teams. Mata is not going to be a great at the wings. We have too many players with the 'round peg in a square hole' problem.

And this comes down to the manager. Pulling a Mourinho masterclass against Chelsea in one match in not the real deal. A masterclass would be to find a system, build players around it, avoid shortcuts and compromises like Fellaini for the sake of the longer run. We might have won 3 trophies. We should rather call them 3 cups. Winning cups comes down to having the better team and tactics than your oppositions on the day. But for winning leagues, you need a better system than your rivals. Tactics can win you individual games. Systems win you leagues. They might be attractive, they might be boring, they might be age old or might be the new 3 at the back fad. But it has to be consistent, effective and one that suites your players. Unless Mourinho manages to identify one and sign players to build on it, we will remain miles away no matter who we sign.

 

[kouroux]

We are miles away from them. We would need to have a great transfer windows with all the new players performing from the go and we would need our bigger names at the club at the moment, to do so much better. Too many "ifs" for me for next season, let's focus on a 2-3 years plan.

 

[Noc-Z]

He's been sensational as a right back up there with any right back in the world right now. That's better than ok.

"Sensational" sounds like hyperbole to me. I would struggle to call anyone in this squad sensational when we have just finished 6th.

From a recent Sky Sports interview..."The one-time winger insists he still doesn't see himself "100 per cent" as a full-back". I would agree. He is a winger filling in at full-back and doing it very, very well.

 

[red4ever 79]

We will be further away if we continue to pursue Keane, Lindelof, that's if they are the intended targets.

 

[Green_Red]

The most important thing we have that is always overlooked is youth. Our team considering how young some of our players are is pretty decent. 3 or 4 years and that team should be close to winning a CL.

 

[Redondo_Pirri]

We will see how far away you are when you vs our B-Team in the European Supercup

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

In terms of both style and substance, it's frankly quite difficult to see us catching up on them in a single transfer window. Real Madrid are the most difficult opponent you can face right now. They seem able to both pass the ball effortlessly and purposefully all around the pitch and also to surrender territory and then kill you off on the transition. Their midfield can support any style of play, the width provided by their FBs is the modern game tactics at their best and their attacking options have great chemistry between them. The only supposed "weakness" you can find is that they don't get much "off the dribble" from their attacking outlets like the MSN do but, then again, their stats this season have been outstanding, so we can argue about this only on a theoretical level.

Let me put it this way, Real Madrid played 60 competitive games throughout the season and they managed to score in all of them... all.of.them. Not even Pep's Barcelona did that. Not even Fergsuson's sides did that. About a year and a half back Zidane took over a squad that suffered from Benitez's poor man management, negative tactics and bad fitness levels. With a bit of luck in the CL draws, they rescued their season by winning the biggest prize of all. This is a proof of how far their individual talent can take them.

This doesn't mean that we won't be able to beat them in a single game or get past them over two legs in Europe. But, as things stand, this will most likely happen with them being in the driver's seat when it comes to setting the tempo and taking the intiative and us putting in an absolute masterclass of a defensive performance.

And this of course will be the case after we have sorted out our attacking plays against organized defenses, after we have created the right mechanisms in the first 2/3 of the pitch which will allow us to be threatening on the counter, after we have become a proper Mourinho team not only off the ball but on the ball too. Not on paper and in lineups posted on fan forums with several names under little red circles with arrows toward all directions but in reality and on the actual pitch.

They can have a nightmarish season but that won't tell us anything about how far we really are from them.

 

[kouroux]

Thats not how football works. People always forget about the team dynamic whilst spouting "wouldnt get into their first XI" bullshit.

Would RM beat us 6 or 7 out of 10 times right now? likely yes but its more than just comparing players in each position.

I expect the Super Cup to be more competitive than the CL final.

Probably because it'd be early in the season for them

 

[Ramshock]

Probably because it'd be early in the season for them

touche

 

[Sterling Archer]

Unfortunately, because Real and Barcelona have Ronaldo and Messi, respectively, then a lot of teams are at a disadvantage. If you take the both out of their teams, then they'd be nowhere near the same team. Yes, they have other world class players, but none of them boast the same kind of record Ronaldo and Messi

Even with Messi and the brilliant team Pep had Barcelona couldn't win the CL back to back. Our very own Ronaldo team with an exquisite defense and balance couldn't win the tournament twice in a row despite making it to several finals.

What this Madrid team has done is win the cup three times in four years and defended it. Hasn't been done before.

It would only be more impressive if they had won the more than once in that same period.

We are perhaps not far off from being able to win the CL once. With some luck. But not this level of consistency and one of the greatest ever players.

If Pogba develops as we hope, then we will be one step closer. If De Gea stays, add another link. But still a long way to go.

Edit: add that we currently have a manager that can win it.

 

[ThanksBoss26]

There's only 1 player that could get into Reals starting 11 and that's De Gea, Pogba and bailly would be on the bench.

As for the rest of our squad they wouldn't even be allowed entry into the bernabau.

We're unbelievably far away from their standard.

Probably true but made me laugh all the same.

 

[Oneunited26]

There isn't much wrong with the side as it is though that a ruthless, mobile CF wouldn't solve

For me, next season hinges on whether we can find the right frontman because for the vast majority of the season, i.e. the big chunk in the middle, we didn't really lack creativity we lacked a finisher

I don't think Mourinho plays to kill, and that is one of the problems with this team. I think a new anchor man, another CM, letting our creative players stretch the play along with the need of a winger that will go direct, and a more fluent CF that has more to his game than get in behind. For too long have we been buying very slow attacking players esp average no10's along with mediocre wingers, count them up since 2008, berbatov, RVP, zlaten, rooney being has quick as a rock, mata, young, lingard. Martial I thought could be that attacking forward that could spark our ability to run at sides, but he's been more miss than hit. While RVP and zlaten were game changers for our season's, for consistent season's we will need a striker that will make us more dangerous and unpredictable for the season's ahead, without that kind of winger and striker that is needed to stretch sides, its going to be frustrating times. If we have those two, that can balance off Mkhi, we could have a front 3 that can hurt sides, and that gives pogba and herrera more to play with of our attacking players can kill sides

If we look at our midfield slash attack

herrera pogba ??
mhki ?? ??

We missing 3 players that can go into this team alongside herrera, pogba and mhki who can give us that dimension to hurt sides, zlaten, rooney and carrick are injured, to past their best, and we need those 3 players to really complete what we missing, pace and the ability to anchor this team to get the best out of pogba and herrera

 

[The red panther]

You creae this thread because you want someone to come in and tell you that we aren't miles away from the level Real Madrid is at right now but deep down you know just like everybody else that would be a big fat lie.

The truth is we have 2 players that could make the madrid team and those are DDG and Pogba, every other United player would never get into their team or even on their bench.

The reality is that won't soon change either because the best players in the world prefer to go to Madrid or other top sides over United, we can not outspend Madrid, they have better youth players than we do atm, the war for talent has even started by signing up players from age 18 and they are winning that aswell.

 

[Lawman]

"Sensational" sounds like hyperbole to me. I would struggle to call anyone in this squad sensational when we have just finished 6th.

From a recent Sky Sports interview..."The one-time winger insists he still doesn't see himself "100 per cent" as a full-back". I would agree. He is a winger filling in at full-back and doing it very, very well.

Don't see many right backs better than him in any the top teams in Europe this season.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Reading this thread, I wonder how Porto and Inter won the CL. Even Chelsea and Liverpool won the CL being far from the favorite. Don't forget Leicester won the EPL. Look at where Chelsea was last season and they won the EPL this year cruising to the title.

Football is a team sport and things can change quickly.
One of Jose's main strength is in the transfer market, he usually get his new signings spot on.

I am optimistic that next season we will challenge in EPL and even in CL if everything go right

 

[DizeeGorilla20]

No. I don't believe we are that far off. All we need is to buy more goals or hope Rashford and Martial seriously pull up their socks next season and chip in with a lot more goals.

 

[minoo-utd]

Reading into this thread feels like we are talking about a non-league team ffs.

 

[KingMinger22]

MILES away right now. We are behind the likes of Bayern, Juventus, Barcelona by some distance aswell. Before we can even think about matching these teams again we need to get our own ship in order and build with quality. If the players we are being linked with are anything to go by, it will be some time yet. That is why the Griezmann transfer would of been a game changer for us in more ways than one. Only Pogba and De Gea would get into pretty much any team in the world. The rest we massively overrate or just nowhere near good enough and arguably shouldn't even be at this club. I honestly think we are about 5-6 top class players away from Real, and when you consider what calibre of player is on the market this Summer it just shows that it is a huge distance.

Missing out on Griezmann, I think, means we will have a poor summer.

We will buy 4 players this summer probably, and not one of them would get into Real's team so that's not closing the gap.

On a bright side, RM's and Barcelona's core players are hitting 30+ (bar a few key players), so their cycle will come to an end soon unless they go big on the market aswell in the next few years. Unluckly for them, guys like Ronaldo or Messi are irreplaceable so the balance between the top european teams should come back in the next few years.

Very true.

However, they will go out and buy a couple of whoever the top 5 attackers are in the world.

We probably still won't have one of the top 10 by the time they have fully replenished their front 3s.

Based on our current squad, we are miles off. Of course with our money, one successful transfer window and you can make giant strides towards the elite.

Just going to have to wait and see what the side looks like by the start of the season.

They quite literally have about a billion euros worth of talent ahead of us.

 

[KingMinger22]

It's also a sad reality that one of the two players we have that would get in to their team currently, might just well be doing that next season.

 

[Jaxdan]

It's also a sad reality that one of the two players we have that would get in to their team currently, might just well be doing that next season.

And two or three of theirs could be suiting up for us as well. James, Morata, maybe even Pepe? RM is so deep, those players would arguably be in the starting 11 in most other sides in the world.

 

[Oldham]

get Costa and Pepe and lets turn nasty...