If we get a solid transfer window we will challenge. Hell, we will win it.
Are we going to be put back in our place next season?
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That just sounds suicidal to me. How do you go into the dressing room and tell them that they will be doing well to achieve parity to this season? For me, if the clear aim is not to fight for first after finishing second, then our players will be justified in thinking this ship is going nowhere. We need to stop making excuses for not pursuing first place. We’ve come second, and despite wanting to ‘improve’ every year, we are still looking for ways to avoid saying we are aiming for first. There’s nowhere else to go above second!
Even Twitter folk are realizing his worth now. Lot’s of comments like “hope you get a better partner next season”, “we missed you captain” and “come back even stronger”.Oh please stop with this bullshit statistics. We would have easily had 6 more points if we needed to. We were uncatchable in the league and gave away several games in the end.
This doom-and-gloom thread is insane. We will be fine, and if we bring proper players (of Cavani and Bruno's ilk) we absolutely can win EPL.
‘Solid’ needs to be all the best players in the world. If we have players on par with Pep, Ole won’t finish above him. Our players need to be significantly better to bridge the gap.
City lost Aguero and Kevin for 6 weeks and won every game. It’s not about players.
I hope so.
'Our place' is 1st place. The likes of City have just temporarily stolen it
'Our place' is 1st place. The likes of City have just temporarily stolen it
Will largely depend on the transfers we make, but I'm also a bit afraid that Ole ain't got what it takes to compete with the very best managers in Europe.
Why do managers like Pep and Klopp buy entirely new 11's if it's not about players?
I think you misunderstood, or I wasn't clear, from a supporter's perspective, I expect a much healthier showing. Of course the aim within the club, dressing room, on the pitch, should be to win every single match and the league. But as a supporter, I have more realistic expectations. I still want to see quite a significant improvement.
I just cant see beyond a maximum top 4 finish under Ole ,irrespective if we have a good transfer window or not, in the upcoming campaign.
And, yes, I'm pessimistic over United.
And, yes, I'm pessimistic over United.
We lost 6 games. The same number as City did.
If we have a good window this summer there's no reason why we can't be competitive.
If we have a good window this summer there's no reason why we can't be competitive.
I do not agree. In the end it’s all about the players. We are much more mature now and it’s been a great progress in our team. With some good signing, we will be strong and we will earn our success. Ole has done fantastic.
We'll be put back in our place alright, by our own players who put us back at the top, where we belong.
I'm not so sure. A lot is made of the other sides around us, their managers, their transfers.
But the fact is there's 14-15 other sides, that's 28-30 fixtures that we also need to worry about. This is the bulk of the available points and there is huge room for improvement there. We need to hold our own against our rivals but actually, we need to be better at putting lesser sides away based on the evidence of this season rather than pointless worry over rivals.
We can't play their fixtures for them. If Chelsea, Liverpool and City win every game apart from those in which they're pitted against each other then yes it'll be a tough competition, but history suggests this does not happen. Only one or maybe two sides manage that relentless consistency. We need to focus on our play and become very consistent against teams we are favoured to beat. That's what City do.
But the fact is there's 14-15 other sides, that's 28-30 fixtures that we also need to worry about. This is the bulk of the available points and there is huge room for improvement there. We need to hold our own against our rivals but actually, we need to be better at putting lesser sides away based on the evidence of this season rather than pointless worry over rivals.
We can't play their fixtures for them. If Chelsea, Liverpool and City win every game apart from those in which they're pitted against each other then yes it'll be a tough competition, but history suggests this does not happen. Only one or maybe two sides manage that relentless consistency. We need to focus on our play and become very consistent against teams we are favoured to beat. That's what City do.
It'll be Pool / City for the title (probably City unless Pep fecks off after winning the CL) followed by United / Chelsea. I don't see anyone else in the PL moving up the ranks because other clubs have way more problems than we do.
In fact I think we'll open up a bit of gap between the top four and rest of the PL. Spurs are already shit + Kane will leave, Arsenal are just bad (can hope for 5th / 6th at best), Leicester are Leicester. They'll do alright - Vardy being 35 won't really help their cause.
Think top four will get wrapped up by December. The only question in my mind is if we can win a cup next year and close the points gap between us and City.
In fact I think we'll open up a bit of gap between the top four and rest of the PL. Spurs are already shit + Kane will leave, Arsenal are just bad (can hope for 5th / 6th at best), Leicester are Leicester. They'll do alright - Vardy being 35 won't really help their cause.
Think top four will get wrapped up by December. The only question in my mind is if we can win a cup next year and close the points gap between us and City.
Well they don’t, would be the answer.
They are after Grealish as well Jesus this would be even more grim for the rest of this league
We seemed to stop giving a crap about anything other than the Europa League after the Villa win, unfortunately because we kept sacrificing results in order to get the job done last night we ended up going into the final in shocking form
Yep. Fergie absolutely dined out on the teams outside of the top six. Get consistency versus them and you're in the title race.
Absolutely spot on
I'm somewhat fascinated with how our players react to the eventual introduction of more fans coming into the stadiums now.
I'm confident enough in our home form improving, less so about our away form. Which I suppose is only natural.
I'm confident enough in our home form improving, less so about our away form. Which I suppose is only natural.
Haha hasn't been our place for 8 years oh dearI hope so.
'Our place' is 1st place. The likes of City have just temporarily stolen it
Yeah but might be worth mentioning how many more we drew than them to balance things out
According to transfermarkt:
5 of Klopps 29 man squad predate his arrival. The rest he signed or promoted from youth squad.
4 of Peps 24 man squad predate his. The rest he signed or promoted from youth squad.
I think he has a point to be fair. I think much is made of this fairytale of those two ‘developing players’. And to be honest players they have signed have been developed but they didnt just develop the shit they had they got the players they wanted
Probably between Chelsea, Utd, Leicester, Tottenham for spots 3 and 4
How many of Liverpools title winning 11 were starting when Klopp arrived? One maybe in Henderson?
So he bought 10 new players to win the league and champs league.
But if as you say it's not about players why did he bother. Could have just coached the existing lot right?
Pep's signed about 70 players in his mangerial career. That seems a lot if winning football isn't about players.
It is of course 90% about the players you have.
That's why this summer is crucial for Ole and the clubs momentum. We need to get it just right becuase no manager will get this current squad back to the top.
And how many of Fergie’s first winning XI were there in his last? Players are obviously changed over the course of a number of years, they get older, they pass their peaks, some simply want to leave - you made it sound as if these go out and buy new starting XIs at once or something. Buying players is also coaching related anyway, as anyone who has a plan can then buy in the profile that suits.
They buy a few new players every year, same as everyone else. Any ‘we need Kane, Sancho, Rice and Varane to compete’ stuff is bollocks though. It basically says if all of our players aren’t the best in the world then how can we be expected to do well? Yet Pep can play without his only world class striker for a whole season, a season where his main goalscoring winger hasn’t even played well, and where his star AM was injured for 6 weeks. Yet he won every game in that period by simply putting Ilkay Gundogan up front! Meanwhile down the road, you have people claiming that Jordan fecking Henderson should win POTY. While our story always seems to be ‘what can we be expected to do? We have no Neymar, Mbappé, Kane or Varane’.
The optimist would point towards Greenwood's second half of the season, the potential of Amad and continuing evolution of our full backs.
The pessimist would say you have to build on something solid, and that requires a defensive-minded midfielder and a CB - and I simply don't trust this club to get those signings right. Our last truly successful midfield transfer was Michael Carrick, 15 years ago.
The pessimist would say you have to build on something solid, and that requires a defensive-minded midfielder and a CB - and I simply don't trust this club to get those signings right. Our last truly successful midfield transfer was Michael Carrick, 15 years ago.
Klopp didn't make a signing in his first transfer window, however then proceeded to make nearly 10 in the two after that, of which you could easily say 7 or 8 of them signings were first team bound, then made 5 first team aquisitions in the two after that, which equates to near enough a new first team!
You talk as if City don't have class options in every position to cover injuries!
Coaching is obvioulsy important, but of equal importance is the quality of squad you have. City's squad is most definitely better than ours.
Back in our place, makes it sounds like we had a unbelievable season, we finished trophyless this season and there’s a good chance we‘ll finish trophyless next season too. We‘re getting nowhere near the PL or CL
Well if you are judging that on our trophy haul going back 30 years I certainly hope so.
You'd think after a season where Liverpool collapsed after one or two important players in their system got injured, that this would be apparent.
Liverpool were going nowhere but a military medium of 4th under Klopp, until Coutinho left and they added VVD, Fabinho and Alisson in the space of 6 months. Coaches help, but it's no surprise that the best players are more often than not placed in the best teams.
My point is everyone signs players. What Pep and Klopp have NOT been doing is going on to the market and buying the equivalents of Kane, Sancho or whatever it is we claim we absolutely need to stand a chance. Well, Klopp has perhaps bought two very expensive players, but they were not regarded as the world’s best in their positions at the time. It is clear that they had a vision for these players and how they would work within their plan, and got the RIGHT players, more than just the best. But you can only get the right players when you know what you want to do with them. Otherwise, you have to simply rely upon hopefully getting the best.
Gundogan as a striker is not a class option for cover, and Jesus is no more a class option than we have.
City have great depth in a specific area of the pitch, unsurprisingly, because of their philosophy on how their football should be played. My point is, their depth and players will always look better anyway because the team is typically playing well. They come in, and perform. Not because Zinchenko is a level of player we need to aspire to. John Stones was a caf laughing stock for a long time. Fernandinho is older than Matic, and they have no regular left back.
When the players they do have were generally signed with a purpose, and because they were specifically chosen due to the qualities that they have, they have complimented the team well. We don’t have the same approach. For example, we have Bruno, and then we have VDB as an understudy in a role as crucial as #10. These players have no similarities in terms of qualities, and were clearly not signed because of how they fit anything bigger than them, they were seemingly signed because we needed a better 10 than what we had (Lingard/Pereira) and they are better players that we could get. There’s a reason why many said Bruno wouldn’t fit in Pep’s team - and that is not because Pep doesn’t like good players, it’s because he knows exactly what functions he wants from them (in detail, not just ‘be good and show courage’). It seems we want to sign any good player we can get our hands on in whatever position we want to strengthen.
Take Sancho, for example. Why do you think we want to sign him, specifically? In terms of his own qualities. He isn’t rapid on the counter. He is a great dribbler and short passer. Is that what we specifically want/need? Have we even considered how that will work in a bigger picture with Bruno and McFred? It doesn’t appear so. We just ‘need a right winger’, and Sancho (sort of) is one. These may seem small, and Sancho will likely still play well because he’s a top player. But these small things are the difference between getting 100% of his capacity and 80 or 90%. When you have no plan and multiply that across 3 or 4 players, the outcome is inevitable.
I raised a similar question with Harry Kane. We all know he’s a brilliant striker. Perhaps the best on the market. But is there any thought beyond that? I said I felt Haaland would suit us more, because, looking at the pieces we already have - we have a 10 without a world class short game, but likes to quickly spring forwards in behind with almost one touch passes where possible. Haaland likes to immediately run towards the goal at pace, Kane likes to come towards the ball and isn’t as quick. I feel as a result, Haaland suits us better. Now some posters provided some good counter arguments, but as long as we are all thinking about the specifics. Rather than just ‘get a world class striker’, which seems to be the approach.
My view is that when the pieces are all put together based on their strengths and how they will relate to one another, then you het a unit that is even better than the sum of its parts. Which is the exact opposite of what United are, and have been, for a long time. Scott, Pogba, Bruno are better players than what started against Wolves, for example. But the Wolves midfield of Matic, VDB and Mata, with Amad dropping in too - made more sense as a unit. Unsurprisingly, we immediately saw an additional 10-15% from VDB.
So yes, players are, of course, important - but our players are not poor. We need a plan, or a better plan, more than we simply need more quality. If you asked Pep, for example, who he would take from United, he likely wouldn’t just take the best players, he’d take the ones that fit. I get the impression that the United Way is the opposite of this. For years people have been saying stuff like ‘don’t but players from Dortmund, they only look good there’, or calling them ‘system babies’ or whatever. This is top level football. It’s a team game. Players will always look better in teams, and following instructions, that suit their strengths. Be prepared for Sancho to be torn to shreds next season because he doesn’t have the speed of Dan James. He has other qualities. But AWB doesn’t have the qualities of Hakimi. And Scott McTominay doesn’t have those of Dahoud.
I think you're ignoring the setup that Wolves had, where they collapsed backwards and didn't really press, even in a midblock, which suited those players down to the ground. I certainly wouldn't play those players in that system against a Liverpool.
I used to think Ole won't be able to get past Pep/Klopp but he may not be able to get past Tuchel either. That's 3 teams with managers clearly better than ours.
Tottenham will regress I think, they have a major rebuild coming. Arsenal are arsenal. That leaves Lester, Everton etc. We may lose Pogba (hopefully if he isn't going to sign). Not sure if we will have more than 70-80M to spend.
So yeah, I think Top 4 should still be in our reach and will be our target. Don't expect too much beyond that.
Tottenham will regress I think, they have a major rebuild coming. Arsenal are arsenal. That leaves Lester, Everton etc. We may lose Pogba (hopefully if he isn't going to sign). Not sure if we will have more than 70-80M to spend.
So yeah, I think Top 4 should still be in our reach and will be our target. Don't expect too much beyond that.
If we don't strengthen I believe we'll be either 3rd or 4th next season fully expect the Scouse to come back and Chelsea to be a lot better also so it will be an issue, Spurs might be dangerous if they get Conte who I think might be tailor made for them in so much as keeping a good shape in the team and they keep Kane they could easily be in an around the mix for CL
If we strengthen properly and make the right squad moves we can push for a title tilt to be honest maybe falling short but keep the challenge going to the end of the season and then another good summer will see push to win the title.
If we strengthen properly and make the right squad moves we can push for a title tilt to be honest maybe falling short but keep the challenge going to the end of the season and then another good summer will see push to win the title.
Those players are not good enough, that’s why. But if they were better players, not two mid-thirties footballers who are finished, then naturally, they could face better teams. It’s more the principles. If nothing else, that midfield was a unit that made sense. It lacked top quality, but as shown, TOGETHER, they lifted one another to a level good enough to beat, and for large periods, outplay a decent PL side away from home.
The best we can hope for, typically, with even our strongest team, is to sit back and counter against Liverpool anyway. That is with midfielders that cost well over 100m. When we do decide to actually take them on and try and play, we get rings run around us like we did last time because we are miles worse as a unit. Not because Wiljnaldum and co are levels above what we have.
Back in our place? 
Ffs these threads keep getting better
Ffs these threads keep getting better
If we have flukes to 2nd - city and Chelsea have flukes to CL final.
I'm intrigued, what is a 'solid' transfer window? Because I see no way we win it. 12 points behind City who were below par and also navigating to a CL final.
If theres one thing I take from Ole and Uniteds transfers so far is that there IS a plan.
There seems to be more emphasis on the collectivism rather than the individual, and on character rather than pure stats. This can only be a good thing moving forward as we are less likely to see the 'Galaticos' style that we got accustomed to under Woodward.
I really doubt we are looking at Kane as a realistic aquisition, I would be surprised if we don't have a conversation with Kane about a move, but the plan seems to be to look for the multiple signings we truly need rather than an indivdual signing.
We know our strength in depth is lacking, hopefully the likes of Amad, Chong (maybe) and a few others can make the next step into being able deputies to enable us to concentrate on three solid signings in the positions we need.
As for CIty's signings, it has taken Pep several defensive signings to get to where they are now, they may have an idea of the players they need but they have failed in this appraoch multiple times, (I hvae lost count of the amount of defenders Pep has purchased!)