Are we too emotional with Managers?

[Amir]

And why it's idiotic to judge a manager's work based on his achievements and the board's expectations? In your opinion how the work of a manager should be judged then?

It depends on the club, of course. If you have the Arsenal mentaility - finish top 4, that's all that matters - then it's all you need.

If you have higher expectations and top 4 is at most a stepping stone, then judgement should be different and far deeper. You should look at team and individual progress, style of play, team chemistry, how well new singings made by the manager are working out.

But if it can all come down to whether you finished fourth or fifth - which could be, and was in 2016, down to goal difference - then it's a very shallow way to judge a manager.

 

[roonster09]

Or we could say the work done behind the scenes by Hasan Salihamidžić wasn't being put to best use by Kovac until he was sacked and replaced by little known Hansi Flick as head coach.

Few Bayern fans said Salihamidžić did poor job or not convincing job, they sacked Kovac, replaced him with caretaker Flick who then went on to have a run that was probably never seen in the game, all of a sudden it was because of behind the scenes work by Salihamidžić?

Just like anything in football, everything is reverse engineering, when somehow by luck or work, appoint great manager everything is rewritten to suit how well they are run.

Spoiler: Articles from last year

Oliver Kahn faces big task leading new Bayern Munich era

The immediate blip on Kahn's radar will be helping to assess the future of both Kovac and Salihamidzic. The coach is a string of bad results away from facing speculation over his job, while the sporting director's contract expires next summer amid criticism over Bayern's transfer dealings.

https://www.dw.com/en/oliver-kahn-faces-big-task-leading-new-bayern-munich-era/a-50227615

The record-breaking champions have crashed down to fifth place in the Bundesliga table and coach Niko Kovač is allegedly is on brink of a dismissal - yet the sporting director remains silent. Salihamidžić has not spoken publicly since the 2:3 defeat in Dortmund - a stretch of more than two weeks. Either Salihamidžić does not want to speak out, or he can’t anymore.

Bild recently questioned Brazzo’s capabilities within the club. The German publication also made it a point to compare him and his predecessor, Matthias Sammer. Sammer came to Bayern in 2012 when the club was in crisis and when Dortmund had just become champions for the second time.

Sammer provided structure within the Bayern organization (via hiring Jupp Heynckes), which helped the squad win a treble and set the foundation to win the next six Bundesliga titles in a row. The skeleton of Sammer’s squad is still present even today. The setting for Sammer, however, has certainly changed. Sammer works as an advisor to Borussia Dortmund, which leads the Bundesliga and is nine points ahead of Bayern.

What does this mean for Salihamidžić? The Bayern sporting director needs to be a better link between the players, coach, and leadership with the ability to immediately recognize negative behavior and tackle it quickly. Judging by the current state, he has failed to do that. The big question is this; has he even won over the locker room himself? Reports say that he has never done so, as the players see him more as a friend, rather than like a authoritative figure.

For now, only the future will tell if Bayern’s restructuring will include Salihamidžić, who still has a long way to go in matching the success of Sammer.

https://www.bavarianfootballworks.c...munich-matthias-sammer-doubt-locker-room-lost

If Kovac gets sacked, it's possible that Bayern München sporting director Hasan Salihamidzic will face the same fate as the former Croatian international, the München-based tabloid reports.

Salihamidzic was the driving force behind the decision to hire Kovac - a good friend of his since they played together - in the summer.

The 41-year-old, who has been accused of lacking impact since taking over as sporting director in 2017, had hoped that his heavy involvement in the hiring of Kovac would help him prove himself - but instead, with Kovac's lack of success, it has backfired.

https://bulinews.com/news/1380/report-salihamidzics-job-is-in-question

There were many reports like this before Flick was appointed. DoF or not, what looked like a trainwreck of a job under Kovac, looks like a mastermind under Flick. What changed? Well the squad remained same but the coach was the deciding factor.

Ultimately coach/headcoach is the most important position. Gill got so much credit thanks to SAF, lets see if Michael Edwards record in transfer market will be as good when Klopp leaves.

 

[roonster09]

Yes, I would say ManUtd fans are too emotional or attached to managers even before they win anything or successful. We are also very reactive in everything, from squad building to appointing/sacking managers.

Some weirdos will obviously blame fans on how 'they don't know how to set expectations or how they want father figure in manager' as a reason for club failure when what fans won't have any impact on club's decision making.

We have management who don't know even know how to make use of bosman ruling.

 

[Strelok]

It depends on the club, of course. If you have the Arsenal mentaility - finish top 4, that's all that matters - then it's all you need.

If you have higher expectations and top 4 is at most a stepping stone, then judgement should be different and far deeper. You should look at team and individual progress, style of play, team chemistry, how well new singings made by the manager are working out.

But if it can all come down to whether you finished fourth or fifth - which could be, and was in 2016, down to goal difference - then it's a very shallow way to judge a manager.

Of course it depends on each club and the current circumstances around.

It's more complicated but basically each year a manager would have some meetings with the board where numerous objectives would be discussed and agreed between. Some objectives would be mandatory/required and some would be only preferable. The required objectives usually also serve as the minimum requirements.

Then through through the season a manager's performance would be regularly and periodically reviewed. Same with the objectives above.

If a manager failed too bad the minimum requirements then they got sacked. That's how it's usually done in a professional environment.

Of course managers can be sacked due to other reasons. Like in some Italian clubs where their owners are a bit crazy and sack like twenty coaches a season. Just because they don't like the manager, or because of a bad result. But it's usually the case above that how a manager got sacked.

 

[Adnan]

Few Bayern fans said Salihamidžić did poor job or not convincing job, they sacked Kovac, replaced him with caretaker Flick who then went on to have a run that was probably never seen in the game, all of a sudden it was because of behind the scenes work by Salihamidžić?

Just like anything in football, everything is reverse engineering, when somehow by luck or work, appoint great manager everything is rewritten to suit how well they are run.

Spoiler: Articles from last year

https://www.dw.com/en/oliver-kahn-faces-big-task-leading-new-bayern-munich-era/a-50227615



https://www.bavarianfootballworks.c...munich-matthias-sammer-doubt-locker-room-lost


https://bulinews.com/news/1380/report-salihamidzics-job-is-in-question

There were many reports like this before Flick was appointed. DoF or not, what looked like a trainwreck of a job under Kovac, looks like a mastermind under Flick. What changed? Well the squad remained same but the coach was the deciding factor.

Ultimately coach/headcoach is the most important position. Gill got so much credit thanks to SAF, lets see if Michael Edwards record in transfer market will be as good when Klopp leaves.

The point isn't about who the Sporting director is but rather the club itself taking charge of recruitment hence having their recruitment strategy independent from the head coach. It's a strategy that is the norm at most succesful clubs.

What changed under Flick was that the players who were obviously unhappy under the previous head coach were happy again and they built up a team spirit within the camp. Something similar happened at Chelsea under Roberto Di Matteo.

And as far as Salihamidzic is concerned the Bayern hierachy were so impressed by his work they announced in November 2019 that he would be promoted to being a executive board member for his excellent work from the youth team upwards.

 

[roonster09]

The point isn't about who the Sporting director is but rather the club itself taking charge of recruitment hence having their recruitment strategy independent from the head coach. It's a strategy that is the norm at most succesful clubs.

What changed under Flick was that the players who were obviously unhappy under the previous head coach were happy again and they built up a team spirit within the camp. Something similar happened at Chelsea under Roberto Di Matteo.

And as far as Salihamidzic is concerned the Bayern hierachy were so impressed by his work they announced in November 2019 that he would be promoted to being a executive board member for his excellent work from the youth team upwards.

And as usual everything is tied to who the manager is, the most important position and from there all the narratives are built.

ManUtd were winning machine under SAF and we didn't have DoF, so the narrative (at least in England) was DoF is a position that creates more problems than solutions. IIRC Spurs had DoF who spent lof of money and it was used as an example.

I'm not saying DoF is good or bad, just that all the behind the scenes work is highlighted when the head coach wins trophies and the same work was treated as poor/not good enough under different manager who didn't do well.

 

[Adnan]

And as usual everything is tied to who the manager is, the most important position and from there all the narratives are built.

ManUtd were winning machine under SAF and we didn't have DoF, so the narrative (at least in England) was DoF is a position that creates more problems than solutions. IIRC Spurs had DoF who spent lof of money and it was used as an example.

I'm not saying DoF is good or bad, just that all the behind the scenes work is highlighted when the head coach wins trophies and the same work was treated as poor/not good enough under different manager who didn't do well.

I agree everything is tied to the manager but the manager at most big clubs isn't the head coach.

 

[roonster09]

I agree everything is tied to the manager but the manager at most big clubs isn't the head coach.

They are head coach but not managers.

FC Bayern München have announced new appointments to their backroom staff. Miroslav Klose (41) will be head coach Hansi Flick's new assistant coach from 1 July 2020.

https://fcbayern.com/en/news/2020/05/press-release-miroslav-klose-appointed-hansi-flick’s-assistant

Barca appointed Koeman but they mentioned as first team coach.

Few mention as head coach, few as first team coach but they are not managers like they are in England.

I would love if we can move away from this model, relying on 1 man to have so many important inputs when we need specialists in every role. We are very reactive, maybe one of the reason we barely sign any pre contract with players and make use of bosman ruling.

 

[Adnan]

They are head coach but not managers.


https://fcbayern.com/en/news/2020/05/press-release-miroslav-klose-appointed-hansi-flick’s-assistant

Barca appointed Koeman but they mentioned as first team coach.

Few mention as head coach, few as first team coach but they are not managers like they are in England.

I would love if we can move away from this model, relying on 1 man to have so many important inputs when we need specialists in every role. We are very reactive, maybe one of the reason we barely sign any pre contract with players and make use of bosman ruling.

I agree and that's what I said in my previous post. The manager does it all concept only exists here in our country. The quicker we move away from such a concept the better, unless Ole turns into the next Fergie.

 

[Skills]

I agree and that's what I said in my previous post. The manager does it all concept only exists here in our country. The quicker we move away from such a concept the better, unless Ole turn into the next Fergie.

Its unfair to label the rest of the country like that. We're the only club still run like a small family business.

Man City, Chelsea and Liverpool all operate closer to a European model than our own.

 

[Adnan]

Its unfair to label the rest of the country like that. We're the only club still run like a small family business.

Man City, Chelsea and Liverpool all operate closer to a European model than our own.

'The concept'

The country is also far bigger than just a few clubs in the EPL..