Are we too emotional with Managers?

[Adnan]

Bayern sacked Kovac and went on to win the UCL.

When we sacked managers the next guy in proceeded to cull the squad.

It's easy to see what the problem is and why we haven't been able to build a competitive team.

Stability, attacking football, structure...

 

[Hawks2008]

We sacked Louis van Gaal a few days after he won a cup. Seems ruthless enough.

Don't think it was, he should have been fired in December of that season.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yes both managers and players. There's a sense that being supporters, we should support even if it's supporting mistakes and a lack of quality.

 

[Adnan]

Bayern have a vehicle and the keys to that vehicle are never given to the coach. The driver of the vehicle always has control off the vehicle.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Bayern made that league a one team league by never accepting mediocrity or decline. And this applies to all leagues, United aren't at the top of a one team league anymore because the club retired in 2013 and I'm barely joking, United was SAF.

No, Bayern wouldn't be in a one team league if they had competitors like a top clubs (at different times) like Livepool and Arsenal, and injection of enormous wealth as in the case of City and Chelsea. Their biggest threat being a talent development centre has a lot to do with it.

 

[Abizzz]

A start up team from their league just made it further than any of the supposedly superior threats faced in the PL. Bayern have their ups and downs, as do all of the big clubs (barca currently at the other end of that cycle). The worry with United is that Woodward has managed to break out of that cycle and into the ups and downs on Arsenal's level.

 

[devilish]

Sir Alex was a legend. He came from a football era were managers did everything (Clough used to drive the team's bus) and when the club grew, he grew with it. By the end of it, he was the boss of an army of coaches and scouts + he had the experience to deal with the board and do his part in the transfer negotiations as well.

Modern managers aren't used to all that responsibility. They have DOFs to deal with different parts of football from transfers to spotting talent etc. They tend to be experienced football people at board level as well that means that they are quite knowledgeable in football and they don't need to be nannied or spoon fed. In some cases (ex Ajax) the CEO is a football person while in others there's a role called vice president which is covered by an ex player (Zanetti at Inter, Nedved at Juventus etc). Our board has as many football people in it as Goldman Sachs

I am not a massive Ole fan (as manager not as a player or a person). However he need a board that know his stuff about football and can react quickly and creatively to the many problems this club has. Else he will end like the three managers before him and possibly the 3 managers after him.

 

[Skills]

Bayern sacked Kovac and went on to win the UCL.

When we sacked managers the next guy in proceeded to cull the squad.

It's easy to see what the problem is and why we haven't been able to build a competitive team.

Stability, attacking football, structure...

I'd say the issue is we refuse to hold managers accountable. Everyone who comes here, has a get out of jail free card - which happens to be, they haven't spent the best part of a billion building their own squad yet. Yet that excuse never exists at any other club.

Over the last 7 years we've constantly lowered the standards and promoted a culture of mediocrity. And the fanbase is the group that's been driving that culture change.

 

[Adnan]

I'd say the issue is we refuse to hold managers accountable. Everyone who comes here, has a get out of jail free card - which happens to be, they haven't spent the best part of a billion building their own squad yet. Yet that excuse never exists at any other club.

I think the problem is that we give the manager too much control in recruitment. In Germany they call them first team trainers with the club itself setting the direction and philosophy of the club going forward which is a advantage if things go pear shaped with the head coach.

 

[Skills]

I think the problem is that we give the manager too much control in recruitment. In Germany they call them first team trainers with the club itself setting the direction and philosophy of the club going forward which is a advantage if things go pear shaped with the head coach.

Agreed.

Personally, I don't think the manager should have much input into recruitment outside of advising which first team positions the club should strengthen. Even then, the final call should be the clubs.

In my opinion, the club needs to be flexible with both it's playing and coaching staff. Great players are rare commodities, and decent coaches are found in abundance. So the club can't afford to narrow it's search for great players based on the current head coach they have.

In an ideal set up, I see the club constantly looking to improve the first team but then also at the same time constantly evaluating on whether they can improve the coaching staff or get a coach that better matches the make up of the team. We lack this culture of continuous improvement, because for the club one aspect (the coach/manager) should be constant for as long as possible.

 

[NoLogo]

I think the problem is that we give the manager too much control in recruitment. In Germany they call them first team trainers with the club itself setting the direction and philosophy of the club going forward which is a advantage if things go pear shaped with the head coach.

Hence why so many of us had been calling for a quality DOF. Someone who can not only set a standard for the type of players we want to recruit, the kind of football we want to play but also will know which managers would somewhat fit the bill.

 

[7even]

As great as that sounds this transfer window we're in the midst of is suggesting otherwise

We're crap at picking managers, so it's no surprise we are crap at realising when it's pointless to continue and letting them go.

Yeah, I'd wager the board has a more long term view than you. To be fair to them, we were quite a mess. It wasn't going to be fixed overnight by a managerial appointment alone.

Manchester United lost their whole executive decision making and management structure in 2013 when Sir Alex retired and David Gill moved on to other positions outside United. It was a disaster on so many levels. Not only did we lose 26 years of extremely valuable experience we also lost our decision making infra structure.

To make the mess even deeper we hired a incompetent new manager without any experience as a manager on the highest level to replace a living legend. Edward Woodward took a step up without any previous experience as a executive director in a business on this level. On top of that and probably for the first time since the take over our relatively new owners had to get themselves involved in the clubs daily decision making. That without any experience in the European football industry. Owning a American football franchise is a totally different business with a fixed framework regarding players recruitments and wage bills.

In order for us a supporters to make the right analysis and conclusions we must first make sure we ask the right questions. Right now the narrative is about blaming specific individuals and especially our CEO and the owners. Even if the owners and our CEO is to blame for a couple of extremely poor decision making in the last few years it’s not exactly constructive to ask for their heads every time something not goes as expected. Owners don’t walk away as owners by themselves.

The owners and/or Edward Woodward took a very bold decision 2018 when they fired Mourinho and hired Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. First it cost the club a fortune. Secondly the club totally changed direction and went from reactive to active management. In short. Instead of recruit players like Falcao, Schweinsteiger and Zlatan the club started to buy local young talents like Maguire, AWB and Daniel James. That was a clear change of direction.

In order to take the right decisions any business needs trust between owners, executives and managers. There must be a framework in how to identify problems, how to implement new ideas or decisions and how to hold each and every decision maker accountable.

Since Ole took over as a manager the club soon made a new strategy how to rebuild our squad. Without any deeper insight I assume that the first step was to build trust between the owners, the executives and the manager. In the end of summer 2019 I saw a change in Ole’s approach regarding decision making and confidence. The only thing that didn’t worked as expected was the results. Injuries and bad luck was probably a part of it.

Fast forward six months and we bought Bruno. Suddenly our players started to deliver results.

Right now the embryo of a functional business plan is on its first steps. The owners has trust in our manager and we seems to have a plan how to move forward. Then COVID come and changed the landscape.

Our lack of new signings this summer is probably because of uncertainty about future revenues. Any sensible business should hesitate to heavily invest in such a financial hard times. Buying a young teenager for a fee of more then €100m in such circumstances needs deeper thoughts and a consequence analysis of what this means financially for our future.

Almost every United supporter just follow the bandwagon and blame Woodward and the owners without any deeper thoughts about what is the alternatives. Simple. You just can’t invest almost all own cash reserves if the incomes isn’t there.

Right now the club needs stability. We will invest in Jadon Sancho or similar caliber of player as soon we have financial security to such a heavy investment. Screaming on Twitter or similar and insult our owners and executives is counter productive. They are humans. WTF do you expect?

Our fanbase needs to calm down and accepts that this rebuilding process will take time. We also need to sell players before we can buy.

Changing manager would only slow down this process at least a year or maybe more.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Yes we are, just because there was on SAF, everytime it's the same arguments bandied about for all underperforming managers - SAF didn't win initially, SAF got 4 years etc. It irritating really, according to most of our fans, a manager has to be given 3-4 years, give piles and piles of money to buy a complete new squad and only after that we have to talk about improvements made by the manager.

 

[LucasXXII]

Right now the club needs stability. We will invest in Jadon Sancho or similar caliber of player as soon we have financial security to such a heavy investment. Screaming on Twitter or similar and insult our owners and executives is counter productive. They are humans. WTF do you expect?

Our fanbase needs to calm down and accepts that this rebuilding process will take time. We also need to sell players before we can buy.

Changing manager would only slow down this process at least a year or maybe more.

Nah.

United needs to ditch the position of manager altogether and hire a head coach who would only be in charge of training and tactics instead. Transfers and recruitments should be handled mostly at the board room level.

Changing manager only leads to instability because managers are given too much power in the first place. We're afraid to start all over again and always end up giving failing managers unnecessary time, thus letting them do more damage to the club.

With a head coach, we don't need to start all over again. A head coach doesn't get to decide the general direction of the club. His responsibility is to adhere to the club's principle and maximize the results. If we play fast-paced attacking football, we play fast-paced attacking football. If we emphasize local young talents, we emphasize local young talents. Changing the head coach should have no bearing on the club's philosophy.

The head coach should be a cog in the machine and nothing more.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Manchester United lost their whole executive decision making and management structure in 2013 when Sir Alex retired and David Gill moved on to other positions outside United. It was a disaster on so many levels. Not only did we lose 26 years of extremely valuable experience we also lost our decision making infra structure.

To make the mess even deeper we hired a incompetent new manager without any experience as a manager on the highest level to replace a living legend. Edward Woodward took a step up without any previous experience as a executive director in a business on this level. On top of that and probably for the first time since the take over our relatively new owners had to get themselves involved in the clubs daily decision making. That without any experience in the European football industry. Owning a American football franchise is a totally different business with a fixed framework regarding players recruitments and wage bills.

In order for us a supporters to make the right analysis and conclusions we must first make sure we ask the right questions. Right now the narrative is about blaming specific individuals and especially our CEO and the owners. Even if the owners and our CEO is to blame for a couple of extremely poor decision making in the last few years it’s not exactly constructive to ask for their heads every time something not goes as expected. Owners don’t walk away as owners by themselves.

The owners and/or Edward Woodward took a very bold decision 2018 when they fired Mourinho and hired Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. First it cost the club a fortune. Secondly the club totally changed direction and went from reactive to active management. In short. Instead of recruit players like Falcao, Schweinsteiger and Zlatan the club started to buy local young talents like Maguire, AWB and Daniel James. That was a clear change of direction.

In order to take the right decisions any business needs trust between owners, executives and managers. There must be a framework in how to identify problems, how to implement new ideas or decisions and how to hold each and every decision maker accountable.

Since Ole took over as a manager the club soon made a new strategy how to rebuild our squad. Without any deeper insight I assume that the first step was to build trust between the owners, the executives and the manager. In the end of summer 2019 I saw a change in Ole’s approach regarding decision making and confidence. The only thing that didn’t worked as expected was the results. Injuries and bad luck was probably a part of it.

Fast forward six months and we bought Bruno. Suddenly our players started to deliver results.

Right now the embryo of a functional business plan is on its first steps. The owners has trust in our manager and we seems to have a plan how to move forward. Then COVID come and changed the landscape.

Our lack of new signings this summer is probably because of uncertainty about future revenues. Any sensible business should hesitate to heavily invest in such a financial hard times. Buying a young teenager for a fee of more then €100m in such circumstances needs deeper thoughts and a consequence analysis of what this means financially for our future.

Almost every United supporter just follow the bandwagon and blame Woodward and the owners without any deeper thoughts about what is the alternatives. Simple. You just can’t invest almost all own cash reserves if the incomes isn’t there.

Right now the club needs stability. We will invest in Jadon Sancho or similar caliber of player as soon we have financial security to such a heavy investment. Screaming on Twitter or similar and insult our owners and executives is counter productive. They are humans. WTF do you expect?

Our fanbase needs to calm down and accepts that this rebuilding process will take time. We also need to sell players before we can buy.

Changing manager would only slow down this process at least a year or maybe more.

I agree with most of your points, but there has to be an intermediary between the owners and football manager, the owners have to hire an executive with experience in football, they have to come to a conclusion about what they want to achieve with Manchester United and how they want to take the club forward, and let him take decisions on managers, transfers etc. It's a very important position and care has to be taken to appoint a person with proper experience and credentials. The manager really has to be changed to a coach, his only concern should be about training and improving players and on the pitch. We really have to be compartmentalize roles instead of loading everything on the manager's head.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Nah.

United needs to ditch the position of manager altogether and hire a head coach who would only be in charge of training and tactics instead. Transfers and recruitments should be handled mostly at the board room level.

Changing manager only leads to instability because managers are given too much power in the first place.

A head coach doesn't get to decide the general direction of the club. If we play fast-paced attacking football, we play fast-paced attacking football. If we emphasize local young talents, we emphasize local young talents. Changing the head coach should have no bearing on the club's philosophy.

The head coach should be a cog in the machine and nothing more.

Excellent point.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Hence why so many of us had been calling for a quality DOF. Someone who can not only set a standard for the type of players we want to recruit, the kind of football we want to play but also will know which managers would somewhat fit the bill.

Exactly the DoF can then take inputs regarding what type of player the coach wants instead of chasing big names. The only problem is choosing a correct DoF. If we screw that up like we did the manager appointments, then we will be fecked.

 

[Amir]

@7even When I wrote we don't even know when to let go of a manager, I was actually thinking more of Moyes, LVG and Mourinho. Heck, we even kept Mourinho for months after it was clear the club no longer trusted him.

Is Ole in the same category? Not quite. Though I still wouldn't trust the people inside, who are supposed to see and know more than us, to make the right and quick decision if a change is needed.

 

[Suedesi]

(Hopefully not another Ole out thread...)

As I sit here and watch Bayern Munich celebrate winning the Champions League. I ask myself, would United have pulled a trigger and sacked a league and cup winning the coach in November?

That decision they made, was the catalyst to them having one of their best seasons ever. A lot of fans in here cant fathom the idea of Ole getting sacked this summer for a better coach, why?

Even when we have sacked managers we have waited until the absolute last moment. Jose should have been sacked in the summer before he went. Nothing in that summer said the following season was going to be successful.

Yes, I tried to make the same point in a roundabout way on this thread

The club is not run by football people - Glazers know feckall about the sport and Ed's background is accounting/banking not football, so it's a shitty situation all around that leaves us vulnerable to charlatans like Mourinho or bullshit artists like Raiola.

 

[Skills]

Exactly the DoF can then take inputs regarding what type of player the coach wants instead of chasing big names. The only problem is choosing a correct DoF. If we screw that up like we did the manager appointments, then we will be fecked.

Nah he shouldn't. The director of football should be trying to assemble the best squad and team possible within the budget, irrespective of what the current head coach wants. At the same time, he should be making sure that the current coach is exactly the right one the current players need.

 

[Bilbo]

I agree with most of your points, but there has to be an intermediary between the owners and football manager, the owners have to hire an executive with experience in football, they have to come to a conclusion about what they want to achieve with Manchester United and how they want to take the club forward, and let him take decisions on managers, transfers etc. It's a very important position and care has to be taken to appoint a person with proper experience and credentials. The manager really has to be changed to a coach, his only concern should be about training and improving players and on the pitch. We really have to be compartmentalize roles instead of loading everything on the manager's head.

People are too obsessed with structure without really understanding what it means in reality. Let's say for example that today we changed Oles title to DoF and also changed McKennas title to head coach. You have your desired structure, but what has changed? Nothing.

I think what people are really afraid of is the notion that we have a single point of failure at this club. Truth is, whether we are allowing a manager to steer the club or whether its the guy called DoF, there is still risk that things can go wrong. This forum has always had this strange certainty that managers can be good or bad appointments but a DoF will undoubtedly work well and can't fail.

The reality is we have regressed from being the dominant team in our league for several reasons, and not all of them were within the clubs control, but we are in total control of the decisions that we make and we have too many that simply haven't worked.

 

[Mickson]

We are too emotional in general. Bayern has no passengers. They have no James or Pereira. They haven't a "maybe he will become good sometime"-player. Laughable to think that someone like James or Pereira would last even 5 minutes there. They are ruthless and very, very good in every position and every sub is very good. That's why they're the best. Kovac wasn't up for it, and then he was gone. They have ambition. United haven't and our fans haven't. That's why we are where we are and that's why we never will be best with that kind of thinking.

 

[Denis' cuff]

(Hopefully not another Ole out thread...)

As I sit here and watch Bayern Munich celebrate winning the Champions League. I ask myself, would United have pulled a trigger and sacked a league and cup winning the coach in November?

That decision they made, was the catalyst to them having one of their best seasons ever. A lot of fans in here cant fathom the idea of Ole getting sacked this summer for a better coach, why?

Even when we have sacked managers we have waited until the absolute last moment. Jose should have been sacked in the summer before he went. Nothing in that summer said the following season was going to be successful.

Brilliant idea. We haven’t sacked a manager for over 18 months. Time we had another punt. Another change of manager who won’t want half the players at his disposal and around we go again. Just what we need. Ole scored a CLF winner so he must be here purely for sentimental reasons. The leeches that appointed him are known for their sentiment.

 

[Adnan]

People are too obsessed with structure without really understanding what it means in reality. Let's say for example that today we changed Oles title to DoF and also changed McKennas title to head coach. You have your desired structure, but what has changed? Nothing.

I think what people are really afraid of is the notion that we have a single point of failure at this club. Truth is, whether we are allowing a manager to steer the club or whether its the guy called DoF, there is still risk that things can go wrong. This forum has always had this strange certainty that managers can be good or bad appointments but a DoF will undoubtedly work well and can't fail.

The reality is we have regressed from being the dominant team in our league for several reasons, and not all of them were within the clubs control, but we are in total control of the decisions that we make and we have too many that simply haven't worked.

What has changed?

First of all the veto process that has been reported is dead with the coach having little say in recruitment and his sole purpose being to coach and improve the players on the training ground.

The DoF would then have the ultimate say in signings and will have a scouting network working under him and together they would go about setting a strategy/vision that aligns with the traditions of the club.

Alot would change..

 

[JPRouve]

What has changed?

First of all the veto process that has been reported is dead with the coach having little say in recruitment and his sole purpose being to coach and improve the players on the training ground.

The DoF would then have the ultimate say in signings and will have a scouting network working under him and together they would go about setting a strategy/vision that aligns with the traditions of the club.

Alot would change..

The timelines and responsibilities also change. Ole main focus would be on the mid to long term while McKenna would be focused on the short term, one would be responsible for building the playing staff/coaching staff and football infrastructures while the other would be focused on the training pitch and matchdays.

 

[Bilbo]

We are too emotional in general. Bayern has no passengers. They have no James or Pereira. They haven't a "maybe he will become good sometime"-player. Laughable to think that someone like James or Pereira would last even 5 minutes there. They are ruthless and very, very good in every position and every sub is very good. That's why they're the best. Kovac wasn't up for it, and then he was gone. They have ambition. United haven't and our fans haven't. That's why we are where we are and that's why we never will be best with that kind of thinking.

Okay so let's apply your argument to our current predicament. We want to remove all of the players that aren't good enough and replace them with ones that are. Of course this is exactly what we should be doing.

How do we do that? How much will it cost to do that? How quickly can it be done? How do we obtain buyers for the players we dont want?

The irony is that i believe the club are now, for the first time in many seasons, thinking and acting in the right way to take the club back to your dream scenario. Yet the fanbase is still split, many still demand change, many are impatient and unwilling to recognise progress when its happening right before their eyes.

That would suggest that we as a fanbase are in fact too emotional, but for the wrong reasons. The OP suggests that we get attached to managers and players and are reluctant to change, when the last year suggests that the opposite is true. We lack the patience to allow a progressive situation to take its course. We are willing to take that risk of change even if it gives us a 25% chance of accelerating that progress versus a 75% of going back to the start of a rebuild.

That isn't how you get to be Bayern. Its consistently good decision making that gets you there. Not tearing down a progressive situation because you are unwilling or unable to recognise just how bad a situation - on and off the field - this club was actually in compared to where we are now.

 

[Bilbo]

The timelines and responsibilities also change. Ole main focus would be on the mid to long term while McKenna would be focused on the short term, one would be responsible for building the playing staff/coaching staff and football infrastructures while the other would be focused on the training pitch and matchdays.

How do you know that this isn't exactly whats happening now?

 

[Adnan]

The timelines and responsibilities also change. Ole main focus would be on the mid to long term while McKenna would be focused on the short term, one would be responsible for building the playing staff/coaching staff and football infrastructures while the other would be focused on the training pitch and matchdays.

Agreed.

 

[Ekeke]

(Hopefully not another Ole out thread...)

As I sit here and watch Bayern Munich celebrate winning the Champions League. I ask myself, would United have pulled a trigger and sacked a league and cup winning the coach in November?

That decision they made, was the catalyst to them having one of their best seasons ever. A lot of fans in here cant fathom the idea of Ole getting sacked this summer for a better coach, why?

Even when we have sacked managers we have waited until the absolute last moment. Jose should have been sacked in the summer before he went. Nothing in that summer said the following season was going to be successful.

Yes.

 

[JPRouve]

How do you know that this isn't exactly whats happening now?

Is Ole involved on the training pitch on a daily basis? Is it his name on the teamsheet under manager?

 

[MikeKing]

Yes both managers and players. There's a sense that being supporters, we should support even if it's supporting mistakes and a lack of quality.

Should supporters stop supporting and instead moan about mistakes and lack of quality? Sounds like the job of a football complainer. I'd say supporters who support does their job and therefor usually is emotionally balanced and available for realistic views, even in tough times. It's just football. Then there is those who panic and put up that protective shield in front of their emotions after failing to handle disappointment, which results in a negative spin on most things football related. Fans can't actually change these things anyways so I'd say those afraid to simply support and take the good with the bad are too emotional with regards to the club. I guess it's cool now to pretend to be a stone cold critic too proud to be charmed by your club.

 

[Red Comet]

How many Ole out thread (thinly disguised or otherwise) do we need?

Last season during our worst under Mou, the widely held view on the CAF is that we were happy with “taking a step back if it means 2 steps forward.” The ask:

• The first team has been improved
• Deadwood such being cleared
• The team plays attractive attacking football
• We continue the tradition of establishing a pipeline from academy to first team
• We remain competitive

One year onwards, Ole has met these requirements, and some more:

• We had added Maguire, AWB to the first team. Maguire had improved the team massively while AWB was being held in high regards for the entire season up till that brain fart against Seville. Our defence has conceded the least goals in recent season, for team that is not parking the bus like Mou does against everyone.
• Signings like Dan James has added depth to the first team. He did well initially but fell of towards the end, which isn't too bad considering this is his first season in top flight. He was at least more positive than the likes of Lingard.
• Bruno was a late mid-season addition to the team, and we can see how his addition invigorated the team.
• Lukaku has been moved on from the team. Take a look at the player threads; most agree that he simply doesn't fit our style and should be moved on. His subsequent performance at Inter does not change the fact that he was ill suited to the team. Darmian has finally moved back to Serie A.
• Ashley Young was moved on, and as had Sanchez (finally).
• Looks like other deadwood such as Lingard, Pereira looks to be moving on as well.
• Smalling, one of CAF's favourite scapegoat, looks like he's finally moving on after a stellar season at Roma has put him on the market.
• With any luck Rojo will move on during the transfer season.
• The team plays attractive football that is a massive improvement from the dross that was served under Mou week after week.
• A bunch of first team players that looked to be going nowhere has improved by leaps and bound. Martial and Rashford are having their best ever season, and Fred now looks like the player we paid £47million for. Scott McTominlay continued his growth, "Iceman" Lindelof did well after seemingly left out in the cold my Mou despite signing him for €35 million. The last few matches showed that we missed Luke Shaw more than we thought. Pogba is finally happy and looks to be staying
• Ole has given chances to plenty of academy grads. Greenwood and Williams have done well and established themselves, with others like Laird, Garner, Levitt, Galbraith, Mengi as ones that potentially have a future with the team.
• In match ups against top teams, we actually did quite well against top teams; for all the claims that Ole is "tactically inept", he managed to beat Guardiola twice at Emptyhad, and had decent record against Klopp and all time CAF's favourite Poch, as well as Mou.
• We were shit against team that defended deep. Never mind that this was when Bruno wasn't at the club yet, with Pogba and Rashford out.
• We achieved 3rd, but got out in the semi-finals of 2 cups.

And yet, the goal post has been shifted and Ole out crowed continue to find the following ways to kick Ole:

• Angel Gomez left; must be because Ole has mishandled him despite Angel not showing anything near his Youtube highlights when he was actually given first team chances
• Lingard and Pereira still being at club must mean that Ole isn't ruthless enough
• Ole not shitting on players in public like Mou does must mean that he is too soft and not good enough as a manager.
• Ole is not "tactically good enough" despite good records against the managers whom CAF are too ready to hold as the next best thing after Rinus Michels
• Ole will never be good enough because he relegated Cardiff. What about Klopp relagating Mainz? We don't talk about that around here.
• Ole has never won anything and never will (winning Molde's first ever league title in the first season in a backwater league doesn't count). But surely Poch will win his first trophies with us.
• Ole can't get us beyond the semis
• And recently, the "oh Ole did ok, but look at Bayern! They were ruthless and surely if we are equally ruthless we will win EPL and CL next season despite Ed doing feck-all in the transfer market

 

[Bilbo]

Is Ole involved on the training pitch on a daily basis? Is it his name on the teamsheet under manager?

Of course, but what we are really talking about here is division of labour. Do we have the right balance within the club, in terms of our immediate and future goals. Our transfer strategy would suggest to me that we are doing both, otherwise we wouldn't have any interest in the likes of Bellingham or those players in the age bracket below what we are willing to put on the field right now, when clearly we do.

The danger comes when or if we reach the point where Ole isn't doing well enough and is let go. Can we guarantee that this work, this approach, will continue? The answer is no. Will a DoF provide this guarantee? The answer is also no.

 

[Red Comet]

Of course, but what we are really talking about here is division of labour. Do we have the right balance within the club, in terms of our immediate and future goals. Our transfer strategy would suggest to me that we are doing both, otherwise we wouldn't have any interest in the likes of Bellingham or those players in the age bracket below what we are willing to put on the field right now, when clearly we do.

The danger comes when or if we reach the point where Ole isn't doing well enough and is let go. Can we guarantee that this work, this approach, will continue? The answer is no. Will a DoF provide this guarantee? The answer is also no.

Having a DOF will at least provide more guarantee - this is literally the DOF's role. Instead we've been changing managers, with each manager trying to instil their own style by buying their own players while selling players inherited from the previous manager. It's a mess.

 

[LucasXXII]

People are too obsessed with structure without really understanding what it means in reality. Let's say for example that today we changed Oles title to DoF and also changed McKennas title to head coach. You have your desired structure, but what has changed? Nothing.

I think what people are really afraid of is the notion that we have a single point of failure at this club. Truth is, whether we are allowing a manager to steer the club or whether its the guy called DoF, there is still risk that things can go wrong. This forum has always had this strange certainty that managers can be good or bad appointments but a DoF will undoubtedly work well and can't fail.

The reality is we have regressed from being the dominant team in our league for several reasons, and not all of them were within the clubs control, but we are in total control of the decisions that we make and we have too many that simply haven't worked.

What structure means in reality is the opposite of what you're alluding to (in which case nothing has changed indeed).

The point is that the general direction of the club should not change with the appointment of a single person. It's exactly what happened in the post-Fergie years. We sacked Moyes and got Van Gaal who made us play a completely different brand of football, spent hundreds of millions of pounds and incurred dozens of ins and outs to build his own squad. Then Van Gaal was sacked and Mourinho did the same. Then Mourinho was sacked and Solskjaer did the same again.

It's not sacking the manager that is the problem. It's the fact that the direction of the club is completely subject to the whim of a single person that is the problem.

The club should have a philosophy of its own, be it playing quick attacking football, emphasizing local young talents, etc.. Whatever it is, we should stick to it in the long term, and try to find coaches and directors that can maximize the results while adhering to the club's principle. What this means is we simply don't hire a Moyes/Van Gaal/Mourinho in the first place. This also means if Solskjaer fails to reach the results required, the club should just sack him and find another coach that can get the results while playing attacking football and developing the youth instead.

We as a club aren't just too emotional with the manager, we're too emotional at everything related to football. We need to be professional, which means we have to enter the age of specialization.

If "backing the manager" means to let the manager dictate absolutely everything, from the daily training details to the general direction of the club, then it's the last thing we should do.

 

[anant]

I think comparing Man Utd and Bayern, and how they are run is not a fair comparison. Firstly, Bayern are the only team in a one horse race and with the kind of resources they have, it'd be a travesty if they don't win the league. For us, PL is a much more competitive league - so you can't sack a manager if you're 3rd or 4th in the league.
Secondly, we don't have a DoF structure here at the club, unlike Bayern. If we sack a manager, the new manager is the one who'd be rebuilding the squad. And there is no manager in the world who'd not like any changes to the squad that he has inherited. So, if we sack Ole today, the new manager will take another 1-2 years to get the team to a similar place as we are now, and hence it's not particularly useful.

 

[RedStarUnited]

How many Ole out thread (thinly disguised or otherwise) do we need?

Last season during our worst under Mou, the widely held view on the CAF is that we were happy with “taking a step back if it means 2 steps forward.” The ask:

• The first team has been improved
• Deadwood such being cleared
• The team plays attractive attacking football
• We continue the tradition of establishing a pipeline from academy to first team
• We remain competitive

One year onwards, Ole has met these requirements, and some more:

• We had added Maguire, AWB to the first team. Maguire had improved the team massively while AWB was being held in high regards for the entire season up till that brain fart against Seville. Our defence has conceded the least goals in recent season, for team that is not parking the bus like Mou does against everyone.
• Signings like Dan James has added depth to the first team. He did well initially but fell of towards the end, which isn't too bad considering this is his first season in top flight. He was at least more positive than the likes of Lingard.
• Bruno was a late mid-season addition to the team, and we can see how his addition invigorated the team.
• Lukaku has been moved on from the team. Take a look at the player threads; most agree that he simply doesn't fit our style and should be moved on. His subsequent performance at Inter does not change the fact that he was ill suited to the team. Darmian has finally moved back to Serie A.
• Ashley Young was moved on, and as had Sanchez (finally).
• Looks like other deadwood such as Lingard, Pereira looks to be moving on as well.
• Smalling, one of CAF's favourite scapegoat, looks like he's finally moving on after a stellar season at Roma has put him on the market.
• With any luck Rojo will move on during the transfer season.
• The team plays attractive football that is a massive improvement from the dross that was served under Mou week after week.
• A bunch of first team players that looked to be going nowhere has improved by leaps and bound. Martial and Rashford are having their best ever season, and Fred now looks like the player we paid £47million for. Scott McTominlay continued his growth, "Iceman" Lindelof did well after seemingly left out in the cold my Mou despite signing him for €35 million. The last few matches showed that we missed Luke Shaw more than we thought. Pogba is finally happy and looks to be staying
• Ole has given chances to plenty of academy grads. Greenwood and Williams have done well and established themselves, with others like Laird, Garner, Levitt, Galbraith, Mengi as ones that potentially have a future with the team.
• In match ups against top teams, we actually did quite well against top teams; for all the claims that Ole is "tactically inept", he managed to beat Guardiola twice at Emptyhad, and had decent record against Klopp and all time CAF's favourite Poch, as well as Mou.
• We were shit against team that defended deep. Never mind that this was when Bruno wasn't at the club yet, with Pogba and Rashford out.
• We achieved 3rd, but got out in the semi-finals of 2 cups.

And yet, the goal post has been shifted and Ole out crowed continue to find the following ways to kick Ole:

• Angel Gomez left; must be because Ole has mishandled him despite Angel not showing anything near his Youtube highlights when he was actually given first team chances
• Lingard and Pereira still being at club must mean that Ole isn't ruthless enough
• Ole not shitting on players in public like Mou does must mean that he is too soft and not good enough as a manager.
• Ole is not "tactically good enough" despite good records against the managers whom CAF are too ready to hold as the next best thing after Rinus Michels
• Ole will never be good enough because he relegated Cardiff. What about Klopp relagating Mainz? We don't talk about that around here.
• Ole has never won anything and never will (winning Molde's first ever league title in the first season in a backwater league doesn't count). But surely Poch will win his first trophies with us.
• Ole can't get us beyond the semis
• And recently, the "oh Ole did ok, but look at Bayern! They were ruthless and surely if we are equally ruthless we will win EPL and CL next season despite Ed doing feck-all in the transfer market

A part of what I am suggesting is copying Bayerns structure. Especially of the calling back of retired players. I am envious of their boardroom being filled by players who actually played and won things with Bayern.

You see with Ole, he gets what United need in terms of players and style. I think Ole has done a great job so far to be fair. I just don't think he is the manager to take us to winning things.

 

[Tom Cato]

(Hopefully not another Ole out thread...)

As I sit here and watch Bayern Munich celebrate winning the Champions League. I ask myself, would United have pulled a trigger and sacked a league and cup winning the coach in November?

That decision they made, was the catalyst to them having one of their best seasons ever. A lot of fans in here cant fathom the idea of Ole getting sacked this summer for a better coach, why?

Even when we have sacked managers we have waited until the absolute last moment. Jose should have been sacked in the summer before he went. Nothing in that summer said the following season was going to be successful.

Even Bayern only sacked their manager when things turned extremely sour. So it's not really a question of sacking someone successful, they sacked a problem.

We sacked a problem in Mourinho, and replaced him with Ole.

if Bayern had not found themselves in a toxic manager/player situation, they would never have sacked the manager in the first place.. so while i get where you are coming from, the idea that managers that come of seasons where the outspoken goal has been accomplished, just doesn't happen, not with Bayern, and not with us.

Even Conte is leaving Inter because he is an absolute pain in the ass to work with, despite having had a very good season with Inter. Managers like that wear on a squad pretty fast, while they do tend to get results in the short run.

Ole is immensely popular in the club and has the full backing of the squad, so what incentive is there to fire the manager in the middle of a outspoken rebuilding project that is currently going according to plan? Do we need a new direction?

 

[RedStarUnited]

Even Bayern only sacked their manager when things turned extremely sour. So it's not really a question of sacking someone successful, they sacked a problem.

We sacked a problem in Mourinho, and replaced him with Ole.

if Bayern had not found themselves in a toxic manager/player situation, they would never have sacked the manager in the first place.. so while i get where you are coming from, the idea that managers that come of seasons where the outspoken goal has been accomplished, just doesn't happen, not with Bayern, and not with us.

Even Conte is leaving Inter because he is an absolute pain in the ass to work with, despite having had a very good season with Inter. Managers like that wear on a squad pretty fast, while they do tend to get results in the short run.

Ole is immensely popular in the club and has the full backing of the squad, so what incentive is there to fire the manager in the middle of a outspoken rebuilding project that is currently going according to plan? Do we need a new direction?

We don't sack problems early, we wait until its irreversible. If Bayern were United - the fact that Kovac won the league the previous year, he would have had a job until the league was not winnable.

Conte is choosing to leave Inter by the way. Its not that Inter want him gone.

 

[hmchan]

A simple yes to the question. Many of our fans are too emotional with our managers and they refuse to give them a fair assessment, even after the managers have left.