Correct. As a fanbase we don't hold our club accountable at all. We tolerate mediocrity to an extent that would not be tolerated at any other club under the guise of being 'better fans'.
Are we too emotional with Managers?
- Thread starter RedStarUnited
- Start date
Some poster a few days ago said we should be "realistically expecting to compete for the CL/PL in 2022/23".
Well, let's just give up 2020/21 and 2021/22 then. Tune in for 2022/23!
The club itself doesn't really have an inherent winning culture. It fluked itself on a serial winner in Alex Ferguson, who made it a winning club for 26 years. But either side of him, it's just pure mediocrity and the fanbase is happy to settle for it.
Rumours of OSG replacing Tuchel with Allegri now. How many trophies did Tuchel win this season alone, and now he might be out of a job.
Fair enough, read the OP again (properly this time). The example given of Bayern just threw me. Because that was really an untenable position for Kovac.
It's the three examples that lead me to that interpretation maybe I'm wong which is why I quoted the OP.
Firstly we forget we're still noobs to this managerial merry go round. Even though we've now had 4 managers post Fergie how many have those other clubs had in that same period of time? Then magnify that to how many managers those clubs had during Fergie's 20+ years in charge. It's understandable that we're still not as cut throat as other clubs
Then there's the fact that in modern football there's just not the same expectations on us that there is on clubs in other leagues, Bayern play in a one team league whereby if they're not comfortably the best then questions are asked. In Spain the rivalry between Real and Barca easily tops ours with Liverpool or City whereby whomever finishes 2nd to the other in Spain again questions are asked and heads roll
Of course club ownership pays a big part in the differing nature of PL sides to those in Europe as well, owners of PL sides are generally more interested in making money off the back of the side whereas the owners of sides in Spain and Germany are more focused on actual on the field success
Then there's the fact that in modern football there's just not the same expectations on us that there is on clubs in other leagues, Bayern play in a one team league whereby if they're not comfortably the best then questions are asked. In Spain the rivalry between Real and Barca easily tops ours with Liverpool or City whereby whomever finishes 2nd to the other in Spain again questions are asked and heads roll
Of course club ownership pays a big part in the differing nature of PL sides to those in Europe as well, owners of PL sides are generally more interested in making money off the back of the side whereas the owners of sides in Spain and Germany are more focused on actual on the field success
It's not about how quick we sack our manager.
It's just that we've been hiring mediocre/shit managers time after time, as is evident in the vast amount of money spent post-Fergie and the abysmal results in contrast.
Good/great managers either weren't considered by the club, or didn't want to come due to the complete absence of a modern footballing structure, and the extremely high expectations compared to the actual level the club is operating at.
It's just that we've been hiring mediocre/shit managers time after time, as is evident in the vast amount of money spent post-Fergie and the abysmal results in contrast.
Good/great managers either weren't considered by the club, or didn't want to come due to the complete absence of a modern footballing structure, and the extremely high expectations compared to the actual level the club is operating at.
Yeah, I think you've got it right to be fair. Regarding the OP, sometimes it's difficult to know when to change. Like now, for United, even though I am almost convinced Ole is not a top manager and won't be a top manager, I still think it's not the right time to change. I'd like to see good coaches arrive into the setup and a DoF to make the footballing side of our operations competent, but Ole - for all his faults - has created a good atmosphere around the place, and showed progress in the last weeks of the season. There are also no ideal candidates available (I'm not keen on Poch at all).
Again, with United, this foresight of the ownership - that's being questioned - requires authentic sporting ambitions. Which we probably don't have.
When it came to Moyes, the fanbase was ready to see him sacked very very very early on. Many fans gave up on van Gaal and Jose way before they were sacked too.
Bayern made that league a one team league by never accepting mediocrity or decline. And this applies to all leagues, United aren't at the top of a one team league anymore because the club retired in 2013 and I'm barely joking, United was SAF.
A toxic situation is WHY Mourinho was fired. Ole IS the Bayern replacement in OPs example.
From OP: "A lot of fans in here cant fathom the idea of Ole getting sacked this summer for a better coach, why?"
I think the crux of it is SAF back the manager speech. Fans now believe we have to back the manager at all costs in the hopes they will come good. SAF came around in a time where instant pressure wasnt as high and thats why he was allowed to stay on. Additionally once he got his feet in the door we kept backing him because he kept winning. We didnt blindly back him. I think the Utd fanbase have to get over that speech and mentality and add a caveat. Back the manger *who is getting the right results
None of the above pertains to booting Ole out just yet before anyone jumps on it. Just a thought i had
Moyes was probably never good enough but it was a case of taking Fergie's advice and he was gone in like 9 months so not a big deal. Then we hired Van Gaal who seems to be football genius but was past his best and couldn't even get us more than 4th and 5th finish in those few seasons when PL was much weaker imo, Leicester winning the league in 2015/16 says it all. Jose was right appointment at a wrong time, if we got him in 2013 we'd probably win the league one season as Chelsea did, sack him and get someone like Poch.
So imo Moyes and Van Gaal were wrong choices, Mourinho right choice at a wrong time. He got unlucky as Pep joined City same year because without Pep we'd most probably win the league in 2017/18.
With Ole im kinda relaxed, don't have high expectations in terms of results but he seems to be doing good job in rebuilding this team. 3rd finish in his first full season is better than any of previous managers done league wise in their first seasons.
So imo Moyes and Van Gaal were wrong choices, Mourinho right choice at a wrong time. He got unlucky as Pep joined City same year because without Pep we'd most probably win the league in 2017/18.
With Ole im kinda relaxed, don't have high expectations in terms of results but he seems to be doing good job in rebuilding this team. 3rd finish in his first full season is better than any of previous managers done league wise in their first seasons.
That's rubbish
Foreign investment by the likes of Ambramovich is what ensured the PL wasn't a one team league. There's nothing Manchester United could do to stop that
A manager winning the league and cup with United would be an achievement that shows the manager has something about him. At Bayern, not winning them would be a surprise so it’s not a like for like situation.
We were still the richest club around and still the most successful club. We were also significantly wealthier than most of clubs that have routinely been above us since 2013. I don't mind that you disagree to some extent or wants to add nuance but rubbish is a bit strong.
You said Bayern alone is what's created the German league be a one team league and suggested Man Utd failed to act similarly, that's rubbish. Total and utter rubbish. Abramovich came in and spent money in one hit like no other side had ever done before and since Abramovich the City owners have done likewise. The fact sides less wealthy than us have routinely finished ahead of us post Fergie is actually neither here nor there the fact is there are sides backed by countries that them alone weren't going to let us have it all our own way like Bayern have in Germany
And he got the sack
We sacked Louis van Gaal a few days after he won a cup. Seems ruthless enough.
They needed him to coach, and he just sat there the whole match! It's no wonder.
I don't think the bottom level is the problem per se, rather than the potential ceiling. I think we should stop assessing managers on accomplishing a minimum target, and rather assess them on if we think they are going to be able to deliver on the big prizes AKA PL and CL, and if things appear to be going in that direction, or not. That's what these other clubs do, rather than resting on their laurels and saying 'Well he managed to accomplish X minimum target, let's see where things go', rather they are proactive in getting rid of managers when it seems like they don't have enough to reach the heights deemed necessary by said clubs. That's what we need more of. As one of the biggest clubs in the world we shouldn't be letting managers skirt by on accomplishing some minimum targets.
Granted, that's what I think. What our board thinks may very well be completely different.
Moyes can manage Bayern Munich and they'll win the league. No other team really threatens them, so they can afford to change managers whenever they want.
Moyes could win CL with them too using his crossing tactic and moving bodies into the box.
United has three executive levels of decision makings.
Joel and Avram Glazer (Owners and executive co chairmen and director)
Ed Woodward (CEO and executive vice chairman and director
Ole Gunnar Solskjær (Manager of the first team and executive regarding players selections)
From my understanding we now have three executives who are on the same page and co operate as team regarding long term strategy and player recruitment. The project to rebuild the team and make results in the meantime needs stability and trust between all executive levels. Before we reconsider a new manager the club must first finish the rebuilding phase.
A look at our two latest annual reports and our 2020 Q3 report indicates that the owners and our CEO fully support Ole in his rebuilding process. Since summer 2019 we have made maximum investments on buying new players, selling deadwood and offer new contracts to valuable squad members. We can discuss individual decisions but the money is there and the strategy is easy to see.
Phase two in Ole’s long term strategy is probably to attract the best young talents in the world. The reports that we are/where strongly interested in Sancho, Bellingham and Håland is a good indicator of this transfer strategy.
I‘m often critical about Ole’s tactical ability but right now that’s secondary. Priority must be to strengthen our squad so we can start to challenge for trophies.
Finally Manchester United has a history of strong long term managers who all started with a rebuilding process before they succeeded. Before we think about changing manager let Ole finish his project.
Joel and Avram Glazer (Owners and executive co chairmen and director)
Ed Woodward (CEO and executive vice chairman and director
Ole Gunnar Solskjær (Manager of the first team and executive regarding players selections)
From my understanding we now have three executives who are on the same page and co operate as team regarding long term strategy and player recruitment. The project to rebuild the team and make results in the meantime needs stability and trust between all executive levels. Before we reconsider a new manager the club must first finish the rebuilding phase.
A look at our two latest annual reports and our 2020 Q3 report indicates that the owners and our CEO fully support Ole in his rebuilding process. Since summer 2019 we have made maximum investments on buying new players, selling deadwood and offer new contracts to valuable squad members. We can discuss individual decisions but the money is there and the strategy is easy to see.
Phase two in Ole’s long term strategy is probably to attract the best young talents in the world. The reports that we are/where strongly interested in Sancho, Bellingham and Håland is a good indicator of this transfer strategy.
I‘m often critical about Ole’s tactical ability but right now that’s secondary. Priority must be to strengthen our squad so we can start to challenge for trophies.
Finally Manchester United has a history of strong long term managers who all started with a rebuilding process before they succeeded. Before we think about changing manager let Ole finish his project.
Not disputing that Bayern played their part in making the Bundesliga a one team league. But the PL has never been a one team league, not even in the 90s. A team in the PL has only ever dominated for 1-3 seasons until someone else wins it, even if only for 1-2 seasons. But you have never seen a PL team winning 6-7 leagues in a row. United won it twice 3 in a row, not more than that.
Not sure if Kovac's sacking is such a great example. He got a lot of criticism already the preceding season and his sacking was generally see as too late. If Bayern was really that ruthless with its managers, they would have sacked Kovac right after last season and not give him another summer.
Flick is Solskjær. Kovacs is Moyes. Bayern has not won 21 straight games because they fired Kovacs, but because Flick took over.
As great as that sounds this transfer window we're in the midst of is suggesting otherwise
We're crap at picking managers, so it's no surprise we are crap at realising when it's pointless to continue and letting them go.
There have been a lot of times where the writing was clearly on the wall and yet we persisted with something, for better or worse (generally worse). Moyes could have got the boot much earlier, LVG in his second season around November, when Jose pressed the self destruct button pretty much immediately from his third season. I'm not saying it's either right or wrong but I think most other clubs would have chucked those managers much sooner (particularly Moyes and LVG).
When a club wins 13 out of 20 league titles, you are a one team league, when that team has for worst result a third place, you cement that idea. For 20 years it was United and the rest.
We have a right to be emotional, we are a very odd club that way and we are working out what the expectations are and what is acceptable after Ferguson.
No other club has had its history dominated by two managers alone who almost exclusively produced nearly all their success - Ferguson and Busby. So every manager is potentially the next Fergie, hence patience. 70s and 80s we waited for the next Busby and he finally came.
No other club has had its history dominated by two managers alone who almost exclusively produced nearly all their success - Ferguson and Busby. So every manager is potentially the next Fergie, hence patience. 70s and 80s we waited for the next Busby and he finally came.
Come on, it’s really not comparable to Bundesliga and League 1. CL performances of other English clubs in the period United have won all those PL titles (several CL semis, finals and wins by United/Liverpool/Chelsea/Arsenal) confirm this. I am not one to call the other two leagues farmers league or anything like that, but the same team winning even close to 7 leagues in a row just cannot happen in the PL.
Alex Ferguson's speech makes sense if you are talking about backing a manager like Klopp. Klopp took 4 years to win his first title for Liverpool, but every Liverpool fans can show the work he was doing for the team with incremental improvement every season. Demanding instant success would be firing Klopp because he failed to win anything in the first three years.
You guys are just developing the habit of backing the wrong manger, and also developing the bad habit of demanding a "proven" manager. The fanbase for crying for Mourinho because you guys will rather watch boring football that hinders the development of the players instead of watching boring football under a manager that tries to develop the team on a tactical level. You guys hire Ole for the long-term because of a mere new manager bounce, while overlooking the fact that Solskjær relies heavily on counter-attacking football to win games. It's entirely different from Bayern hiring Flick, because he actually gets the team dominate possessions and win games ( a task that is much harder to accomplish as a coach).
I'm not comparing, you can ignore other leagues I don't really care and I haven't mentioned them, you are the one comparing with the 7 leagues in a row which is in my opinion not relevant to the idea that one team is way above the rest. United was way above the rest for 20 years and if it wasn't for poor and slow decisions after 2013, we would still be the top team because there is a massive advantage when you are able strengthen from a position of strength and when you are as wealthy as United are.
Well you did call the PL a one team league, but it cannot be a one team league if the most a team has won is 3 in a row. A one team league is rather a league where a team wins 7 in a row. That’s why I have mentioned them. PL is not a one team league, not even before 2013. Neither is La Liga despite Barca winning 10 of 20 league titles in the same period we won 13. There’s a huge difference if you win 3 or 7 in a row, can’t see how anyone can call the PL a one league team. Obviously United is still the most successful team in the PL era, but we have always had significantly more competition than Bayern or PSG over many years now.
Yeah, I'd wager the board has a more long term view than you. To be fair to them, we were quite a mess. It wasn't going to be fixed overnight by a managerial appointment alone.
That's your criteria, I get it but I don't agree.